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Thread: Enola Gay

  1. #1
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    Default Enola Gay

    On the 6th of august 1945, a boeing b29 superfortress took off from the tinian island in the pacific carrying an awesome new weapon weighing almost 10,000lbs and containing 140lbs of deadly uranium 235.
    The bomb was code-named little boy, the target for the mission, hiroshima.
    The bomb load was released over it's target at 0915 hrs at an altitude of 31,000 feet.
    Little boy exploded 800 feet above the target with the equivalent force of 20,000 tons of t.n.t.
    Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds......

    Always puts a shiver down my spine listening to that.
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    Last edited by pultneytooner; 23-Jul-06 at 12:21.

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    What do you find most distressing about the bomb? The fact that many people died? Or the method by which they died?

    Can you imagine a japan if the US hadn't dropped the bomb? It could have been a lot worse.
    dz4d.com
    "No generation has a freehold on this Earth, all we have is a life tenancy with a full repairing lease" Margaret Thatcher
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    Quote Originally Posted by pultneytooner
    ....Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds......
    A chilling line from an old Hindu religeous text translated as 'Song Of The Blessed One', also famously quoted by J.Robert Oppenheimer, one of the 'fathers' of the atomic bomb upon witnessing the first test detonation.
    Gives me the twitching awfuls too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead
    What do you find most distressing about the bomb? The fact that many people died? Or the method by which they died?

    Can you imagine a japan if the US hadn't dropped the bomb? It could have been a lot worse.
    I would say both the method they died and how many died.

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    Considering the horror the survivors were put through, I would think that the ones who died outright were the lucky ones.

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    Default what

    what was the other bomb called

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    The 2nd bomb dropped on Nagasaki 3 days later was called 'Fat man'

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    The bomb dropped on an uninhabited island near Japan would have ended the war I believe. There was no need for the USA to drop this bomb on Hiroshima or even less Nagasaki except to show that they could. Must be considered one of the biggest War Crimes ever.
    In the image of God? You must be joking!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gleber2
    The bomb dropped on an uninhabited island near Japan would have ended the war I believe. There was no need for the USA to drop this bomb on Hiroshima or even less Nagasaki except to show that they could. Must be considered one of the biggest War Crimes ever.
    They say that truman was left this expensive nuclear development program and had to justify it's existance using the threat of another okinawa if they invaded japan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pultneytooner
    I would say both the method they died and how many died.
    I can see what you mean, the bomb is a horrible way to go but only imho outwith of the inner blast zone. I actually wouldn't mind a death in it, it would be quick at least and hopefully without much warning.

    Outside the blast zone there would be fires and stuff, but it maybe of the same nature of the conventional attack which was seen in Tokyo where more people died than Hiroshima and Nagasaki put together. So in that regard it would make more sense to me to be more distressed over the conventional firestorming of Tokyo which nobody makes a song and dance about these days. A touch of perspective might be needed perhaps.

    War is horrible but inevitable. So long as there are people, there are people wanting to kill other people. To my mind, the modus operandi employed is of no consequence. To illustrate my point, use a mind experiment, if the US had the ability to drop a waterbomb of such magnitude that Hiroshima was destroyed and everyone drowned. And instead of fried bodies there were drowned ones lying about, would the event have been remembered or despised any different? To the people killed it doesn't. To me it doesn't. But the events of August 1945 brought an abrupt end to a long war. For that we can be thankful and in a way the events should be celebrated incuding the ingenuity of those involved in the project.

    I am an aggressive pacifist. I am against all war including the most recent in the middle east. But if someone kicks our country then we should kick back harder to show example so in that sense I defend what the US did as they didn't start the war. They just created the circumstances which led to it.

    I do concede that the US had revenge in their minds, but didn't we all? It is easy to lament with hindsight...
    Last edited by Rheghead; 23-Jul-06 at 12:52.
    "No generation has a freehold on this Earth, all we have is a life tenancy with a full repairing lease" Margaret Thatcher
    "Ne sutor ultra crepidam"

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pultneytooner
    On the 6th of august 1945, a boeing b29 superfortress took off from the tinian island in the pacific carrying an awesome new weapon weighing almost 10,000lbs and containing 140lbs of deadly uranium 235.
    The bomb was code-named little boy, the target for the mission, hiroshima.
    The bomb load was released over it's target at 0915 hrs at an altitude of 31,000 feet.
    Little boy exploded 800 feet above the target with the equivalent force of 20,000 tons of t.n.t.
    Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds......

    Always puts a shiver down my spine listening to that.
    What brought that suddenly to mind? Is there some relevance to today’s date?

    Here is something else for you to give consideration to.

    On the night of the 5/6 November 1940 HMS Jervis Bay a converted Merchant ship armed only with four old six inch guns attacked the Pocket Battleship "Admiral Scheer" in order to save the convoy she was escorting.
    The "Admiral Scheer" was the sister ship to the "Graf Spee". She was six years old and of the latest design and armament. She had six 11 inch Guns, eight 5,9 inch guns and eight 21 inch torpedo tubes.

    The sailors on HMS Jervis knew full well that they would never get close enough to even put a scratch on the Scheer's paintwork but they still attacked to allow the convoy to scatter into the darkness.

    Look at the list of names below and let your shivering spine think of them.


    Killed 5th Nov 1940.
    James Anderson Smn. RNR. Old Schoolhouse, Thrumster. Married.
    James Bain Smn. RNR. 18 Wellington St, Wick. Married. Age 27 yrs.
    John M Bain Smn. RNR. 24 Kinnaird St, Wick. Age 27 yrs.
    David R Bremner Smn. RNR. 31 Smith Ter, Wick. Married. Age 29 yrs.(in-law, W Miller).
    William Bremner Smn. RNR. 5 Macarther St, Wick. Age 32 yrs.
    John Innes Smn. RNR. Burnside, Oldwick, Wick. Married. Age 33 yrs.
    William B Miller Smn. RNR. 31 Smith Ter, Wick. Age 27 yrs. (in-law, D Bremner)
    John C Munro Smn. RNR New House, Keiss. Age 28 yrs.
    Alex Webster Smn/Gnr. RNR. 41 Argyle Sq, Wick. Married. Age 32 yrs.

    Survived

    Donald Bain Awarded the D.S.M. "He was wounded and burned at his gun post on the "Jervis Bay", but he and another gunner continued in action, even after seven of the gun crew had been killed". He was the first Caithnessian to be awarded for bravery during the 2nd World War.

    Smn. RNR. 136 Willowbank, Wick. Married.(Wounded 5th Nov 1940).
    George Doull Smn. RNR. 23 a Girnigoe St, Wick.
    David Dunbar Smn. RNR. Kyleburn Cottage, Lybster.
    Jack Durrand. Smn. RNR 86 Willowbank, Wick. (Brother of Robert).
    Robert Durrand Smn. RNR. 10 Bridge St, Wick. (Brother of Jack).
    Robert Gunn Smn. RNR. Ackergill Crescent, Wick.
    Alex Moonie Smn. RNR. 9 Macarthur St, Wick.
    William Oag Smn. RNR. New Houses, Thrumster.
    James Reid Smn. RNR. 17 Vansittart St, Wick.

    http://www.iprom.co.uk/archives/cait...sbaydetail.htm

    Next Bonfire night, I hope a shiver again goes down your spine and you have the decency to remember the fate of those brave men from Caithness who willingly gave or risked their lives for your benefit.

    They had the spine to put their lives on the line so we can have the freedom to sit and pass moral judgement on their generation without having the fear of the knock on the door because somebody had denounced us for thinking the wrong thing.

    "Greater love hath no man than he lays down his life for a friend"
    How much more so when he does it for people he does not even know?
    Animals I like, people I tolerate.

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    War is such a delicate subject. No one likes what has to be done at times, and I don't really have an opinion about the Japanese bombings, (I think all killing is dreadful) but my grandfather fought in New Guinea and he hated the Japanese, I think it is all about perspective. We live very near to Indonesia, and were they to decide that the needed more room, and invade Australia, then I would fight to keep my home safe from an invasion. Unfortunately, as it always was and always will be, the ones who make the decisions are not the ones on the front line.
    It is always the innocent majority that pay for the ignorant minority.
    She was not quite what you would call refined, she was not quite what you would call unrefined. She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolabelle
    War is such a delicate subject. No one likes what has to be done at times, and I don't really have an opinion about the Japanese bombings, (I think all killing is dreadful) but my grandfather fought in New Guinea and he hated the Japanese, I think it is all about perspective. We live very near to Indonesia, and were they to decide that the needed more room, and invade Australia, then I would fight to keep my home safe from an invasion. Unfortunately, as it always was and always will be, the ones who make the decisions are not the ones on the front line.
    It is always the innocent majority that pay for the ignorant minority.
    Many of the men I grew around felt exactly the same way. They wre the lucky ones who survived the Japanese POW Camps.
    Animals I like, people I tolerate.

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    The Rape of Nanking

    “Between December 1937 and March 1938 one of the worst massacres in modern times took place. Japanese troops captured the Chinese city of Nanjing and embarked on a campaign of murder, rape and looting.
    Based on estimates made by historians and charity organisations in the city at the time, between 250,000 and 300,000 people were killed, many of them women and children.
    The number of women raped was said by Westerners who were there to be 20,000, and there were widespread accounts of civilians being hacked to death.
    Yet many Japanese officials and historians deny there was a massacre on such a scale.
    They admit that deaths and rapes did occur, but say they were on a much smaller scale than reported. And in any case, they argue, these things happen in times of war.
    Tillman Durdin of the New York Times reported the early stages of the massacre before being forced to leave.
    He later wrote: "I was 29 and it was my first big story for the New York Times. So I drove down to the waterfront in my car. And to get to the gate I had to just climb over masses of bodies accumulated there."
    "The car just had to drive over these dead bodies. And the scene on the river front, as I waited for the launch... was of a group of smoking, chattering Japanese officers overseeing the massacring of a battalion of Chinese captured troops."
    "They were marching about in groups of about 15, machine-gunning them."
    As he departed, he saw 200 men being executed in 10 minutes to the apparent enjoyment of Japanese military spectators.
    Also horrified at what he saw was John Rabe, a German who was head of the local Nazi party.
    He became leader of the international safety zone and recorded what he saw, some of it on film, but this was banned by the Nazis when he returned to Germany.
    He wrote about rape and other brutalities which occurred even in the middle of the supposedly protected area.“

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/223038.stm

    There are other sites on the same issue but some of the information is far too graphic for me to wish to identify them on an open board.

    The Japanese, despite all the eyewitnesses of various nationalities, stil deny the extent of the atrocities or that they ever happened at all. The nearest people have generally got to an acceptance that anything at all happened is, "These things happen in war!"

    I heard one report of two Officers who had civilians rounded up and engaged in a contest to see who could behead the most in 60 minutes. They could not have been very good at it because the winner only managed, I think it was. 115. That’s not quite two a minute, but perhaps their arms got tired towards the end. Still, when you are bored how else do you entertain yourself for the odd hour?

    It’s just one of those little incidents that got dusted into one of the corners of history which are hardly worth mentioning, who cares about a few hundred thousand Chinese raped, tortured, butchered (literally) or just simply killed just to pass the time when you get bored? This was not done in the frenzy of the aftermath of battle but coldly and dispassionately over a four month period. And that is just what occurred in one Chinese City.

    But everybody has heard about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But that was terrible, because we did that, didn’t we!
    Animals I like, people I tolerate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAWS
    What brought that suddenly to mind? Is there some relevance to today’s date?

    Here is something else for you to give consideration to.

    On the night of the 5/6 November 1940 HMS Jervis Bay a converted Merchant ship armed only with four old six inch guns attacked the Pocket Battleship "Admiral Scheer" in order to save the convoy she was escorting.
    The "Admiral Scheer" was the sister ship to the "Graf Spee". She was six years old and of the latest design and armament. She had six 11 inch Guns, eight 5,9 inch guns and eight 21 inch torpedo tubes.

    The sailors on HMS Jervis knew full well that they would never get close enough to even put a scratch on the Scheer's paintwork but they still attacked to allow the convoy to scatter into the darkness.

    Look at the list of names below and let your shivering spine think of them.


    Killed 5th Nov 1940.
    James Anderson Smn. RNR. Old Schoolhouse, Thrumster. Married.
    James Bain Smn. RNR. 18 Wellington St, Wick. Married. Age 27 yrs.
    John M Bain Smn. RNR. 24 Kinnaird St, Wick. Age 27 yrs.
    David R Bremner Smn. RNR. 31 Smith Ter, Wick. Married. Age 29 yrs.(in-law, W Miller).
    William Bremner Smn. RNR. 5 Macarther St, Wick. Age 32 yrs.
    John Innes Smn. RNR. Burnside, Oldwick, Wick. Married. Age 33 yrs.
    William B Miller Smn. RNR. 31 Smith Ter, Wick. Age 27 yrs. (in-law, D Bremner)
    John C Munro Smn. RNR New House, Keiss. Age 28 yrs.
    Alex Webster Smn/Gnr. RNR. 41 Argyle Sq, Wick. Married. Age 32 yrs.

    Survived

    Donald Bain Awarded the D.S.M. "He was wounded and burned at his gun post on the "Jervis Bay", but he and another gunner continued in action, even after seven of the gun crew had been killed". He was the first Caithnessian to be awarded for bravery during the 2nd World War.

    Smn. RNR. 136 Willowbank, Wick. Married.(Wounded 5th Nov 1940).
    George Doull Smn. RNR. 23 a Girnigoe St, Wick.
    David Dunbar Smn. RNR. Kyleburn Cottage, Lybster.
    Jack Durrand. Smn. RNR 86 Willowbank, Wick. (Brother of Robert).
    Robert Durrand Smn. RNR. 10 Bridge St, Wick. (Brother of Jack).
    Robert Gunn Smn. RNR. Ackergill Crescent, Wick.
    Alex Moonie Smn. RNR. 9 Macarthur St, Wick.
    William Oag Smn. RNR. New Houses, Thrumster.
    James Reid Smn. RNR. 17 Vansittart St, Wick.

    http://www.iprom.co.uk/archives/cait...sbaydetail.htm

    Next Bonfire night, I hope a shiver again goes down your spine and you have the decency to remember the fate of those brave men from Caithness who willingly gave or risked their lives for your benefit.

    They had the spine to put their lives on the line so we can have the freedom to sit and pass moral judgement on their generation without having the fear of the knock on the door because somebody had denounced us for thinking the wrong thing.

    "Greater love hath no man than he lays down his life for a friend"
    How much more so when he does it for people he does not even know?
    Thanks for the heads up, jaws, having lived in caithness all my life with family stretching back generations, how did I miss hearing about the Jervis Bay?
    My family must have forgoten to tell me about the relatives who died in ww1 and the ones who died in ww2.
    Next time I need reminding about the losses caithness families suffered in various theatres of war, I will contact you on here for a history lesson.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAWS
    The Rape of Nanking

    “Between December 1937 and March 1938 one of the worst massacres in modern times took place. Japanese troops captured the Chinese city of Nanjing and embarked on a campaign of murder, rape and looting.
    Based on estimates made by historians and charity organisations in the city at the time, between 250,000 and 300,000 people were killed, many of them women and children.
    The number of women raped was said by Westerners who were there to be 20,000, and there were widespread accounts of civilians being hacked to death.
    Yet many Japanese officials and historians deny there was a massacre on such a scale.
    They admit that deaths and rapes did occur, but say they were on a much smaller scale than reported. And in any case, they argue, these things happen in times of war.
    Tillman Durdin of the New York Times reported the early stages of the massacre before being forced to leave.
    He later wrote: "I was 29 and it was my first big story for the New York Times. So I drove down to the waterfront in my car. And to get to the gate I had to just climb over masses of bodies accumulated there."
    "The car just had to drive over these dead bodies. And the scene on the river front, as I waited for the launch... was of a group of smoking, chattering Japanese officers overseeing the massacring of a battalion of Chinese captured troops."
    "They were marching about in groups of about 15, machine-gunning them."
    As he departed, he saw 200 men being executed in 10 minutes to the apparent enjoyment of Japanese military spectators.
    Also horrified at what he saw was John Rabe, a German who was head of the local Nazi party.
    He became leader of the international safety zone and recorded what he saw, some of it on film, but this was banned by the Nazis when he returned to Germany.
    He wrote about rape and other brutalities which occurred even in the middle of the supposedly protected area.“

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/223038.stm

    There are other sites on the same issue but some of the information is far too graphic for me to wish to identify them on an open board.

    The Japanese, despite all the eyewitnesses of various nationalities, stil deny the extent of the atrocities or that they ever happened at all. The nearest people have generally got to an acceptance that anything at all happened is, "These things happen in war!"

    I heard one report of two Officers who had civilians rounded up and engaged in a contest to see who could behead the most in 60 minutes. They could not have been very good at it because the winner only managed, I think it was. 115. That’s not quite two a minute, but perhaps their arms got tired towards the end. Still, when you are bored how else do you entertain yourself for the odd hour?

    It’s just one of those little incidents that got dusted into one of the corners of history which are hardly worth mentioning, who cares about a few hundred thousand Chinese raped, tortured, butchered (literally) or just simply killed just to pass the time when you get bored? This was not done in the frenzy of the aftermath of battle but coldly and dispassionately over a four month period. And that is just what occurred in one Chinese City.

    But everybody has heard about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But that was terrible, because we did that, didn’t we!
    Somewhere, somehow, I am sure that people will be answerable for these atrocities. I have watched many documentaries on this kind of thing, and unfortunately war seems to give these inhuman people the cover to get away with these acts. But it is not just the japanese, what about the slaves in the american south, the civil wars in the African countries, let alone what goes on and has gone on in the middle east, on both sides. It may not be to the same scale, but is the behaviour of some, and I do stress, some of the US soldiers with the POW's now any better? It is all sick making to any normal compassionate person. It is really sad, that we can torture and maim and kill each other for fun, and then to top it off, make movies about people killing and torturing each other for entertainment. And that's not even war movies.
    She was not quite what you would call refined, she was not quite what you would call unrefined. She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot. Mark Twain

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolabelle
    Somewhere, somehow, I am sure that people will be answerable for these atrocities. I have watched many documentaries on this kind of thing, and unfortunately war seems to give these inhuman people the cover to get away with these acts. But it is not just the japanese, what about the slaves in the american south, the civil wars in the African countries, let alone what goes on and has gone on in the middle east, on both sides. It may not be to the same scale, but is the behaviour of some, and I do stress, some of the US soldiers with the POW's now any better? It is all sick making to any normal compassionate person. It is really sad, that we can torture and maim and kill each other for fun, and then to top it off, make movies about people killing and torturing each other for entertainment. And that's not even war movies.
    I would suggest you do a little more research into Nanking, what happened there bears no resemblence to anything carried out recently in Afghanistan or Iraq and I include both sides in both countries.
    Animals I like, people I tolerate.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by pultneytooner
    Thanks for the heads up, jaws, having lived in caithness all my life with family stretching back generations, how did I miss hearing about the Jervis Bay?
    My family must have forgoten to tell me about the relatives who died in ww1 and the ones who died in ww2.
    Next time I need reminding about the losses caithness families suffered in various theatres of war, I will contact you on here for a history lesson.
    The don't lecture me on Hiroshima unless there is some reason why you suddenly docided it needed mentioning.
    Was there any particular reason you found the subject of some urgency?

    Perhaps there was only one country killing people in WW2.

    If you expect me to have any moral qualms over the Enola Gay then forget it.
    Japan wasn't a signatory to the Geneva Convention with respect to POWs.
    Those who didn't return were never mentioned in my home town, what had happened to those who did return was bad enough.

    Was there some point to suddenly bringing up something which occurred on the sixth of August in the middle of July?
    Animals I like, people I tolerate.

  19. #19
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    I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound as if I thought that any of these were comparable. I was just making the comment that people do awful things to each other in the name of war. Again, sorry, that my post came across with the wrong attitude. I wasn't comparing atrocities. And with out sounding like a complete ignoramus, I don't want to know too many details, because these kind of things play on my mind and I cannot deal very well with them. It may sound like a cop out, but I know myself and I don't handle that kind of thing very well at all. I know it happens, but I don't want to study it.
    She was not quite what you would call refined, she was not quite what you would call unrefined. She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot. Mark Twain

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAWS
    The don't lecture me on Hiroshima unless there is some reason why you suddenly docided it needed mentioning.
    Was there any particular reason you found the subject of some urgency?

    Perhaps there was only one country killing people in WW2.

    If you expect me to have any moral qualms over the Enola Gay then forget it.
    Japan wasn't a signatory to the Geneva Convention with respect to POWs.
    Those who didn't return were never mentioned in my home town, what had happened to those who did return was bad enough.
    You make a lot of assumptions don't you jaws?
    I didn't realise I wrote this post to lecture you or anybody else.
    Firstly, the post is about my own personal feeling of horror about the use of tactical nuclear weapons and was looking for other peoples opinions on the rights or wrongs of hiroshima and in the current climate this is something I think alot of people will be worried about.
    Perhaps there was only one country killing people in WW2
    Was that your perception of my post, that's wildly innacurate even for you and frankly quite a sad tactic?

    Was there some point to suddenly bringing up something which occurred on the sixth of August in the middle of July?
    If ever I wish to post on a subject within the rules and regardless of the relevance to the time of year, I will do so unless I have to run it by you first.

    Do you feel it was right to snuff out the lives of thousands of "innocent" japanese because of savage war crimes in nanjing and other japanese occupied lands or do you agree because it brought about a swift end to the war?
    Last edited by pultneytooner; 25-Jul-06 at 13:36.

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