Isreali Blockade of Lebanon

[squidge]

Who has benefitted from the war in Iraq? Before we invaded they were a socialist state, all the major industries were nationalised and their profits went to help the people. Iraq used to have the best health service in the Middle East, they had free higher education, most of the necessities they bought were subsidised and the government gave away free refrigerators and televisions to the people.

Wow - a utopia then? Im surprised you never moved there Fred.

[golach]

Wow - a utopia then? Im surprised you never moved there Fred.

Squidge it was only Utopia if you were related to Saddam or his cronies. Not if you were a Kurd or a Marsh Arab
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4695648

[squidge]

Squidge it was only Utopia if you were related to Saddam or his cronies. Not if you were a Kurd or a Marsh Arab
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4695648

I know Golach - my tongue was very firmly in my cheek

[j4bberw0ck]

America is a military-industrial complex, the big corporations including the arms industry, the military and the government are all controlled by the same people.

What an extraordinary statement. Who are these "same people"? Or are we back to anti-Jewish rhetoric again? Can I refer you to the US Constitution and the fact that their President has considerably less personal power than say, Tony Blair as Prime Minister?

Who has benefitted from the war in Iraq? Before we invaded they were a socialist state, all the major industries were nationalised and their profits went to help the people. Iraq used to have the best health service in the Middle East, they had free higher education, most of the necessities they bought were subsidised and the government gave away free refrigerators and televisions to the people.

Look, I'm by no means sure that the invasion of Iraq was a great idea, but the supposed virtues of old Iraq that you list are not substantially different to the virtues of old Germany under Hitler in the 1930s, after, of course, the economy was restructured to takeout the inflation directly attributable to the punitive measures imposed by the Allies.

Are you saying that Germany was a nice cuddly country too? Saddam's regime subsidised, nationalised and supported as a means of staying in power. The same regime gassed approximately 10,000 Marsh Arabs because they dissented, and murdered half a million Kurds after the West encouraged them to rebel and then left them in the lurch. And that's ignoring the hundreds of thousands of Shi'ites (the largest group in Iraq) slaughtered and tortured by the regime for no reason other than that they weren't Sunni (Saddam's minority mob) and had the courage to dissent.

The Sunnis are rebelling now because they've lost their privileges and social superiority.

It's also the case that during sanctions against Iraq, Saddam built dozens of palaces for himself from the proceeds of oil allowed onto the world market to raise funds so that the children "dying of dysentery and tuberculosis" could have treatment. It's further a matter of fact that Saddam's family raided the national bank to the tune of one billion dollars as the regime collapsed.

As for socialism....... socialism is inherently corrupt, it seems to me. Every major socialist country has at one time or another turned on and slaughtered huge numbers of its own people. The USSR under Stalin. Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. Hitler and the Jews. East Germany's Stasi and people disappearing in the night. Mao Tze-Tung and millions of Chinese peasants. Kim il-Sung building rubbish missiles and magnificent statues of himself while 2 million of his people starve. And please don't tell me Hitler's Germany wasn't socialist; his political affiliation was the National Socialist Party, hence "NAZI". They all play the same game.

After the invasion Iraqs assets were split between American corporations, so far they have made over $50 billion out of it while Iraqi children die of dysentary and tuberculosis.

That's as maybe, but if you "follow the money" you'll find that the US has spent a great deal more on invading Iraq than $50 billion. And much of that $50billion paid to UScorporations comes from the US Government anyway, under its obligation to rebuild after invasion. Of course US companies were preferred for rebuilding contracts; their own government is footing a large part of the bill.

[j4bberw0ck]

Sorry, I seem to have compounded the off-topic drift on this thread! Apologies to the thread "owner", Squidge.

[squidge]

No need for apologies - i like my threads to go where they want to go - i am interested in what you have to say

[canuck]

As for socialism....... socialism is inherently corrupt, it seems to me. Every major socialist country has at one time or another turned on and slaughtered huge numbers of its own people....

That's as maybe, but if you "follow the money" you'll find that the US has spent a great deal more on invading Iraq than $50 billion. And much of that $50billion paid to UScorporations comes from the US Government anyway, under its obligation to rebuild after invasion. Of course US companies were preferred for rebuilding contracts; their own government is footing a large part of the bill.

It isn't necessarily the principles of the "system" that are corrupt, but rather the people who have power within the system. In time they can turn any system into a corrupt manifestation of what was initially a pretty benign way of having people work together.

The discussion on this thread is suggesting a lot of corruption in capitalism as well. So I don't think the problem is so much with the system, but what people do within the system to achieve either the ends of justice and peace or selfishness and war.

[j4bberw0ck]

It isn't necessarily the principles of the "system" that are corrupt, but rather the people who have power within the system. In time they can turn any system into a corrupt manifestation of what was initially a pretty benign way of having people work together.

That's true, but within any group of humans there'll always be one who regards themselves as being better qualified than others to run things. George Orwell had it nailed down tight..... "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others".

Socialism is especially vulnerable to this because to buy in to socialism, you have to buy into the idea that all people are equal and beholding to the State, which leads and exists for the good of all. Then if you control the State, and happen to be psychopathic enough to believe the State is more significant than its citizens, the path is open to the sorts of atrocities various regimes have committed. It's strange - people seem to view Fascism as being a variant of the political right wing but in fact, Fascism and socialism are indistinguishable in operation. Doubters might refer to the OED for a definition of Fascism or could look here: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fascism

The discussion on this thread is suggesting a lot of corruption in capitalism as well

I don't disagree, but Fred appeared to be suggesting that socialism itself is a virtue, and that was the point I was addressing. Capitalist countries are also not noted for slaughtering their citizens, which was another specific point about the nature of socialism. But I agree that political / economic systems, organised religions, all human group activity are all the same, all vulnerable to corruption by sometimes well-meaning, sometimes just plain exploititive or evil, people.

[sassylass]

Folks I am devasted by the various responses..surely war is the last resort. There is no JUST war there is only war..and we fail as citizens of this world if we condone that,

well said lizz

[pultneytooner]

Good point gleber2,,,,but do you not acknowledge that the bullet and the bomb are not an answer?
Surely as thinking people we are better than that, and if we ar e not then anarchy reigns.

Whether we, are thinking people or not will not make a blind bit of difference.
If a war is going to happen, neither you nor I will be able to stop it whether we condone it or not, our opinions don't matter.

[pultneytooner]

The sword and the gun have never been the answer but their use has been condoned throughout history. Nothing changes. After all we all have God on our side.
Why are the thinking people always ignored?

Sometimes it's the only way.

[Gleber2]

And some-one in the recent past, on this board, suggested that we were higher than the animals.
You have to laugh as a means to stop the tears.

[JAWS]

what on earth is going on in the Lebanon? Israel have blockaded The whole country and bombed the airport? Is this really necessary to get back their soldier? Is this a completely uneccessary escalation and a hostile act of war by a country who appear to be intent on causing misery and war wherever they look? or is it a justifiable act? I am baffled to be honest

Yet another thread where the original post has almost immediately hijacked and turned into an anti-American tirade involving Iraq And now Iran and Syria.
It doesn't take much to provide and excuse, does it?

I've not bothered reading the whole thing through because I have no doubt that it is just another reiteration of about 50 other hijacked threads.

I do hope nobody has mentioned oil or 9/11 yet but I‘m sure they will be dragged into it somewhere, the temptation will be too much.

Whatever happens, I hope nobody expects a well thought out discussion on the subject in question because there is almost no chance of that happening.
Twisted propaganda certainly but forget about reasoned discussion.

Mught I suggest that this be amalgamated with the Flight 93 Thread because 90% of what will be claimed will have already been covered there, again and again and again ad infinitum!

[George Brims]

And some-one in the recent past, on this board, suggested that we were higher than the animals.

I can't remember which famous biologist said it, but it's been pointed out that we should not consider ourselves higher forms of life until we have mastered simple things like flight, and metamorphosis.

[Gleber2]

I can't remember which famous biologist said it, but it's been pointed out that we should not consider ourselves higher forms of life until we have mastered simple things like flight, and metamorphosis.

Here Here!!!!!

[golach]

Yet another thread where the original post has almost immediately hijacked and turned into an anti-American tirade involving Iraq And now Iran and Syria.
It doesn't take much to provide and excuse, does it?

Twisted propaganda certainly but forget about reasoned discussion.

Mught I suggest that this be amalgamated with the Flight 93 Thread because 90% of what will be claimed will have already been covered there, again and again and again ad infinitum!

Jaws I regret to say that once again you are 100% correct this thread has been dare I say the word "Hijacked" by the propoganda machine of a few of the more so called radical Orgers that keep repeating themselves in here.
Methinks I will post a theory that President Bush and Prime Minister Blair are responsible for the Flat Earth theory, Or that there is an Area 51 somewhere in the Nevada desert and they both are responsible for that also and lets see
if they can make a link with Iraq and the persecuted minions of this world we live on.

[pultneytooner]

.........................

[Gleber2]

.........................

More than once!!!

[George Brims]

J
Methinks I will post a theory that President Bush and Prime Minister Blair are responsible for the Flat Earth theory, Or that there is an Area 51 somewhere in the Nevada desert and they both are responsible for that also and lets see
if they can make a link with Iraq and the persecuted minions of this world we live on.

Dunno about the flat earth thing (though given Bush's flavour of religion it wouldn't surprise me), but there is an establishment called Area 51. It's out in Nevada. It's a secure military test airfield. That's where things like the STealth Fighter, Stealth Bomber, and much earlier the SR-71 Blackbird were tested. Just because loopy people claim there are alien spacecraft there (well there must be because it was in "Independence Day"!), doesn't mean the mundane boring version of it is fiction.

[fred]

What an extraordinary statement. Who are these "same people"? Or are we back to anti-Jewish rhetoric again? Can I refer you to the US Constitution and the fact that their President has considerably less personal power than say, Tony Blair as Prime Minister?

Anti Jewish retoric? I havent used any anti Jewish retoric.

Who are these same people? There are too many to name, there is hardly a senior member of the White House staff that doesn't switch backwards and forwards between politics and high paid corporate jobs. Cheney was CEO of Haliburton, Haliburton got lucrative contracts in Iraq. If you want to know more of the people involved take a looka at the Carlyle Group.

The President used to have less power than the Prime Minister of England, things have changed under Bush. See this article on Presidential Signing Statements. Can Tony Blair do that to acts of Parliament?

It's also the case that during sanctions against Iraq, Saddam built dozens of palaces for himself from the proceeds of oil allowed onto the world market to raise funds so that the children "dying of dysentery and tuberculosis" could have treatment. It's further a matter of fact that Saddam's family raided the national bank to the tune of one billion dollars as the regime collapsed.

Diseases like dysentery are caused by things like dirty water and lack of sewerage and while Saddam was building those palaces the Iraqi government did manage to rebuild a lot of Iraqs infrastructure, then we bombed it again. You can point the finger at Saddam Hussein if it makes you feel better, you can say that man is responsible for it all and we are totally without blame but the fact remains that before 1991 Iraq had one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world and diseases like dysentery, tuberculosis and cholera were none existant.

As for socialism....... socialism is inherently corrupt, it seems to me. Every major socialist country has at one time or another turned on and slaughtered huge numbers of its own people. The USSR under Stalin. Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. Hitler and the Jews. East Germany's Stasi and people disappearing in the night. Mao Tze-Tung and millions of Chinese peasants. Kim il-Sung building rubbish missiles and magnificent statues of himself while 2 million of his people starve. And please don't tell me Hitler's Germany wasn't socialist; his political affiliation was the National Socialist Party, hence "NAZI". They all play the same game.

But Britain is a socialist country, not as much as it used to be when we had more nationalised industries and free higher education too. As for Hitler the party had the word "socialist" in it and he talked some socialist ideas like giving a free VW to everyone in Germany but no, he wasn't socialist, at the end of the war the bulk of German industries were still in private hands, Germany was a military-industrial complex much like America is.

That's as maybe, but if you "follow the money" you'll find that the US has spent a great deal more on invading Iraq than $50 billion. And much of that $50billion paid to UScorporations comes from the US Government anyway, under its obligation to rebuild after invasion. Of course US companies were preferred for rebuilding contracts; their own government is footing a large part of the bill.

The war has cost the American taxpayer a staggering amount of money, perhaps $300bn, most of that money has gone out of the pockets of the ordinary American and right into the pockets of the war profiteers. What's worse is that America is running a huge defecit so future American taxpayers will be paying interest on it when Bush has left the White House and taken rediculously high paid positions with the corporations who will be bleeding Iraq dry.