United 93

[luskentyre]

So what exactly is the difference between a group of people who fight to take back control of a plane which has been hijacked and a group of people who fight to take back control of a country which has been hijacked then?

Arn't they both heros?

I don't think you can equate those two things at all. The former example involves people merely trying to save their own lives. Whatever their motivation, the latter involves extremists with no regard/respect for life, who are in no immediate danger.

Frankly I think it's insulting to try and compare the two.

[Nello]

[quote=fred]Your first post was political, political propaganda. "For Evil to triumph Good Men just need do Nothing", I take it the good is us and the evil is them.

My first post related to a film and was not political in any way it was simply a recommendation to see a film I thought was relevant to an actual event in which people died and yes I think people who get aboard an aircraft with the intention of hijacking it and crashing it into whatever target they had is pretty evil .. and I am probably not alone in that .. What would you call it ?? ..

As for the rest of the drivel you spouted about Saddam being tricked into invading Iraq etc .. Are you serious ?? .. I think someone who stands up for Saddam and that mentions the hijackers in the same sentence as the word hero while alleging those involved in 9/11 are somehow "Freedom Fighters" is pretty delusional ..

[JAWS]

[QUOTE=Nello]

Your first post was political, political propaganda. "For Evil to triumph Good Men just need do Nothing", I take it the good is us and the evil is them.

My first post related to a film and was not political in any way it was simply a recommendation to see a film I thought was relevant to an actual event in which people died and yes I think people who get aboard an aircraft with the intention of hijacking it and crashing it into whatever target they had is pretty evil .. and I am probably not alone in that .. What would you call it ?? ..

As for the rest of the drivel you spouted about Saddam being tricked into invading Iraq etc .. Are you serious ?? .. I think someone who stands up for Saddam and that mentions the hijackers in the same sentence as the word hero while alleging those involved in 9/11 are somehow "Freedom Fighters" is pretty delusional ..

Nello, you simply do not understand. Every evil in the World is controlled secretly by America. They pull the strings and the rest of the World just dances in accordance with which ever strings are pulled.

Except for the wise politically astute few, all the rest of the people of the World, including the leaders of all it's Nations and Organisations, are so brain-dead that they simple do not see what is going on under their noses.

Before you know it somebody will be telling you that it was the Americans who kidnapped and murdered the Russian Embassy Staff in order to ensnare the Russians in Iraq. Nothing, of course, will be said about the rights and wrongs of President Putin’s Orders to his ex-employees from what was the KGB to eliminate the people who carried out the assassinations.

Only the Americans and we British are capable of doing anything wrong, the rest of the peoples of the World are simply out poor victims who have been cruelly oppressed and slaughtered so we can Control the World and enslave the people. Anything which is contrary to that view is considered to be propaganda only to be believed by the stupid or the politically naive.

[JAWS]

If a plane is flying at 35,000ft and it drops 700ft then it is flying at 34,300ft, the plane later climed to over 40,000ft.

Research in Canada after 9/11 proved the probability of a cell phone connecting from a commercial airliner at cruising altitude to be less than 1%, there were 10 cellphone calls reported from flight 93, one lasting 13 minutes.

Something doesn't add up.

I will ask again! If the "Official Version" is a total invention then what made the plane crash? Or perhaps it didn't crash and the whole thing was a figment of somebody's imagination.

To simplify things, I have dismissed the theory that there were no pilots and the whole thing was done by either magic or smoke and mirrors.

[Nello]

[quote=JAWS][quote=Nello]Nello, you simply do not understand. Every evil in the World is controlled secretly by America. They pull the strings and the rest of the World just dances in accordance with which ever strings are pulled.

Except for the wise politically astute few, all the rest of the people of the World, including the leaders of all it's Nations and Organisations, are so brain-dead that they simple do not see what is going on under their noses.

Before you know it somebody will be telling you that it was the Americans who kidnapped and murdered the Russian Embassy Staff in order to ensnare the Russians in Iraq. Nothing, of course, will be said about the rights and wrongs of President Putin’s Orders to his ex-employees from what was the KGB to eliminate the people who carried out the assassinations.

Only the Americans and we British are capable of doing anything wrong, the rest of the peoples of the World are simply out poor victims who have been cruelly oppressed and slaughtered so we can Control the World and enslave the people. Anything which is contrary to that view is considered to be propaganda only to be believed by the stupid or the politically naive.



I know .. but I like a good discussion !! .. Freds views have so many holes in them you could drive a tank through them. Still we are entitled to our point of view. I would like to take his/her point of view apart but at the end of the day I have learned never to argue with people that naive as they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

P.S .. I STILL THINK UNITED 93 IS A GOOD FILM !! ..

[fred]

I don't think you can equate those two things at all. The former example involves people merely trying to save their own lives. Whatever their motivation, the latter involves extremists with no regard/respect for life, who are in no immediate danger.

Frankly I think it's insulting to try and compare the two.

Extremists with no regard/respect for life who are in no immediate danger?

Like this one you mean?

The ongoing air campaign and harsh economic sanctions have prevented the rebuilding of the water supply and other infrastructure. UNICEF has estimated that ten years of sanctions have killed an estimated 500,000 children. Asked in a 60 Minutes interview about the level of civilian deaths in 1996, then Secretary of State Madeline replied, “we think the price is worth it.”

[fred]

[QUOTE=Nello]

Your first post was political, political propaganda. "For Evil to triumph Good Men just need do Nothing", I take it the good is us and the evil is them.

My first post related to a film and was not political in any way it was simply a recommendation to see a film I thought was relevant to an actual event in which people died and yes I think people who get aboard an aircraft with the intention of hijacking it and crashing it into whatever target they had is pretty evil .. and I am probably not alone in that .. What would you call it ?? ..

Oh I call it evil as well, I call a lot of things evil. It's just as evil for a Muslim to kill a Christian as it is for a Christian to kill a Muslim as far as I'm concerned, we seem to have killed an awful lot of Muslims without declaring it evil though.

As for the rest of the drivel you spouted about Saddam being tricked into invading Iraq etc .. Are you serious ?? .. I think someone who stands up for Saddam and that mentions the hijackers in the same sentence as the word hero while alleging those involved in 9/11 are somehow "Freedom Fighters" is pretty delusional ..

Well yes I am serious, that is what happened, America did trick Iraq into invading Kuwait there is no doubt about that. I can't see how you can be surprised, when you look back at Americas history of intervention all over the world, the Middle East, Vietnam, Korea, South America, Africa, Palestine, they have a very long history of causing local conflicts to further their own interests, why should this be any different?

Now I think you should go back and look again at what I wrote, I didn't call the hijackers freedom fighters, the American government and press called them freedom fighters when they were fighting Russians in Afghanistan. It didn't seem to matter how many attrocities they committed then, then they were heros, Afghanistan had been occupied by a foreign power so anything goes.

Why is it good for Muslims to kill Russians but bad for them to kill Americans?

[fred]

I will ask again! If the "Official Version" is a total invention then what made the plane crash? Or perhaps it didn't crash and the whole thing was a figment of somebody's imagination.

All I said was that cell phones don't work on planes at 35,000ft. From what I know about cell phones it doesn't surprise me.

[George Brims]

Cell phones do work on planes at 35,000 feet. Not very well or very reliably, but they do work. You have heard of a thing called "windows" haven't you? The wavelength of cell phone transmissions is pretty short (less than a foot) so the windows on a plane are small enough to let the signals in and out of the cabin (compare that to the mesh in a microwave oven window which has tiny holes so you can see your food bubbling but not irradiate your head).

There have been a number of cases of people using cell phones on passenger aircraft and getting in trouble for refusing to stop when asked to do so by the crew. On one occasion, a really obnoxious yuppie had to be threatened with assault by a number of fellow passengers on a Honolulu-LAX flight before he would put the phone away. I was a little disappointed when he capitulated. I wanted to see what the huge Hawaiian guy next to me would do to him! He demanded to see the captain, who came back and threatened to have him arrested at LAX if he caused any more trouble.

[JAWS]

All I said was that cell phones don't work on planes at 35,000ft. From what I know about cell phones it doesn't surprise me.

So presumably, if the passengers could not receive reports of the other hijackings via their cellphones they must have received the information by some other means. I am assuming that the use of crystal balls at 35,000 feet is even less likely then the lack of cellphone reception.
That being the case, how are they supposed to have known to fight back to take control of the plane, the normal thing is to sit tight and wait for the plane to land. There must have been some reason why they didn't just do that unless they all decided that risking killing themselves and everybody else on board was the ultimate act of defiance. .

Something caused the plane to crash and if the Official Version is the only one which explains what happened then why should it be disbelieved.
For an explanation to be dismissed as impossible whilst suggesting no other explanation is hardly a convincing argument.

[JAWS]

[QUOTE=fred]

Oh I call it evil as well, I call a lot of things evil. It's just as evil for a Muslim to kill a Christian as it is for a Christian to kill a Muslim as far as I'm concerned, we seem to have killed an awful lot of Muslims without declaring it evil though.

Why is it good for Muslims to kill Russians but bad for them to kill Americans?

If that is how you see things,fred, then why are you not as vocal in conemning the Christian Russians for the wholesale slaughter of the Muslim Chechnyans? Perhaps it is only wrong when it is the Americans and we Brits.
Is there some difference which is not clear to me and, I would suspect, many other people?

[Nello]

The passengers on board were using the aircrafts phone system to phone relatives and that is how they were informed of what was happening regarding the Twin Towers or are we suggesting ALL the relatives were lying ??

I have already PM'd Fred over the views expressed and received a reply and feel I cant comment here on the forum regarding those views having done so privately, so i will ignore Freds comments in total.

I know a little about this situation having worked in Air Traffic Control and can say that the four digit transponder or "squawk" never transmitted the Hijack code (all aircraft under Radar Control are issued a four number code or "Squawk" which identifies them on Radar) which is why Air Traffic Controllers took so long to ascertain that United 93 was under the terrorists control. In an emergency the pilots set this code which indicates a hijack without voice comms being necessary. This indicates that the Flight Deck was stormed quickly. The fact that the passengers were able to formulate a plan to storm the flight deck indicates to me that they were in one location and able to communicate relatively freely. The relatives confirm they were using the aircraft phone and so couldnt have been watched too closely. The fact that they got to the cockpit and were overheard by Air Traffic Control says they were perhaps left to their own devices largely while the hijackers concentrated on flying the jet. Where does it say in the report that personal mobiles were used ??, I work in Telecommunications and they just wouldnt work for various reasons, (look at the Mobile Phone masts, any aerials point up ?? .. ) and as they ARE capable of interfering with avionics onboard they would perhaps have been noticed if contact on them was attempted.

The end result is those poor souls are now gone having been put in a situation not of their making and they went out fighting, may we all have the same strength if it comes to it .. The topic of this thread is the Film made about that, not the conspiracy theories or Religion or Iraq.

Watch the Film and See for yourself.

[JAWS]

Nello, if I remember correctly without checking, the hijackers were missing one of their accomplices and were “short-handed”. The passengers, instead of being kept in their seats as is the normal practice were all forced to the rear of the plane in one large group presumably in the belief that confining them to one small area would make them easier to control.

Had they been left in their seats should the hijacker move up and down the isle at some stage there would have been passengers who were out of sight behind him with the obvious risk that would pose.

Crowding them together would mean that there could be whispered conversations and plans formed which would have been impossible had they remained seated. Hatching a secret plan with somebody four rows away on the opposite side of the plane would obviously be impossible.

The problem about the Official Version lies in it’s very description. It is the “Official Version”, therefore it must be a lie and a Cover Up, what else could it be?

[Nello]

The problem about the Official Version lies in it’s very description. It is the “Official Version”, therefore it must be a lie and a Cover Up, what else could it be?[/quote]

Exactly .. I remember having had a few beers one afternoon listening to a guy who seemed convinced everything was a conspiracy, just to see if he would bite I remarked that I thought Interflora had something to do with Diana's accident (think about it) and he actually considered it !!, it was only after someone else pointed out my smiling mug to him that he twigged .. Unbelievable !! .. We also convinced him that the word gullible does not appear in the dictionary and he went to look !! .. just goes to show that certain people will believe anything ..

[squidge]

I have already PM'd Fred over the views expressed and received a reply and feel I cant comment here on the forum regarding those views having done so privately, so i will ignore Freds comments in total.

.

Did he ask you to book his ticket? Did he say he would love to speak to real people in Iraq and ask them what their thoughts are? did he have his bag packed he was so eager to experience the real thing....no? im so surprised i was hoping you could leave him there

[fred]

[QUOTE=JAWS]

If that is how you see things,fred, then why are you not as vocal in conemning the Christian Russians for the wholesale slaughter of the Muslim Chechnyans? Perhaps it is only wrong when it is the Americans and we Brits.
Is there some difference which is not clear to me and, I would suspect, many other people?

What makes you think I don't condemn the Christian Russians?

There are a lot of similarities between the situation in Chechnya and the events leading up to 9/11, infact Muslim groups who had faught in Afghanistan were involved there as well, they were called "rebels" in that one, not as good as "freedom fighter" but still not "terrorists".

The Chechen rebels were fighting against an imperialistic power with superior military might who had occupied their country because they wanted their oil. They fought back any way they could, they took 1,000 children hostage at a school in Russia.

Same story, I don' t look at it any differently, do you?

[fred]

For an explanation to be dismissed as impossible whilst suggesting no other explanation is hardly a convincing argument.

The research data shows that cell phones don't work from a plane at 35,000ft.

The 9/11 commission report (pdf file) says that cell phone calls were made from flight 93.

One of them must be wrong and based on my understanding of how cell phones work I know which one I believe.

[George Brims]

Hmm. You're calling that "The research data". Actually it's "Some research data", and it's on a pro-conspiracy web site. Perhaps it is part of a conspiracy to convince us of the conspiracy? Perhaps there's a deeper conspiracy to divert us from some other conspiracy that the government has now cooked up?

[Nello]

Did he ask you to book his ticket? Did he say he would love to speak to real people in Iraq and ask them what their thoughts are? did he have his bag packed he was so eager to experience the real thing....no? im so surprised i was hoping you could leave him there

No .. but the offer is still open.
I cant see what Fred posts anymore as he/ she is on my ignore list.

[obiron]

No .. but the offer is still open.
I cant see what Fred posts anymore as he/ she is on my ignore list.

probably for the best. it was a thread about a film you saw after all.