Anti Scottish feeling in England.....

[landmarker]

With English people attacked in Scotland by and the widely reported attitude of 'anyone but England' north of the border there is, I regret, a bit of momentum growing here against the Scottish.

The world cup fervour, or lack of it, might have unforseen consequences for Gordon Brown's chances of ever taking up Prime Ministerial power.
A two page spread in the Daily Mail today re-inforced this feeling of alienation.

Written by Tim Luckhurst, a former editor of the 'Scotsman' and a resident of Glasgow for twenty odd years. He reckoned that the introduction of devolution had weakened traditional ties and loyalties on both sides of the border. He also highlighted the vast number of Scots in our Parliament, and in positions of influence, and mooted the possibility of an Englishman ever becoming Scotlands first minister. It was a very short mooting (ie no chance)The same can be said of Wales I'd imagine.

All this is very sad. I 've said it doesn't matter who one supports in any sports match but things are going beyond this now, and if we are not careful then auld enmities will become a schism, and then a chasm.

Does anyone really want this?

A long time lover of Scotland, and harbouring a desire to live there one day, I must admit my ideas have been ever so slightly jolted.

Is it an 'underdog' thing? England has never been one has it, really? Is that why so many here shout for the underdog and would embrace a Scotland victory as one akin to our own. (Olympic Curling for instance) Yet so many Scots seem to bitterly resent an English presence in Germany, let alone progress.

This is wider than the world cup, and why I have not posted under the 'banter' thread. The violence is most regrettable, and given the scurrilous nature of the red top tabloids much will be made of it. It is a dangerous development and one which must be kept in perspective on both sides of the border, otherwise we will all be the losers.

[orkneylass]

Hi - I would not overreact to anti-English feeling in Scotland although there is undoubtedly some. If you move here you need to get known as an individual. As you say, England has never been the underdog, and has frequently been the oppressor. The problem is not so much history, as the here and now arrogance, loud mouthed, obnoxiousness of SOME english people who patronise the locals, try to change everything, and show no sensitivity for those with 10+ generations buried in the local churchyard.

I feel entitled to say this as an incomer to my chosen community - the anti-English feeling is sometimes based on bad experiences, those who come up to live on benefits and put a strain on local services, rather than contributing to local life, or the loads-a-money braggers with their 4 x 4's, complete with airconditioning, and a conservatory biiger than the house!

I respect the local people, know I can never belong here the way they do, and have no wish to change what attracted me up here in the first place - as long as you do the same, you'll be very welcome. Scotland is facing the biggest population fall of any small country in Europe over the next 30 years - we really need immigrants, but they will have to respect the local culture.

[porshiepoo]

My opinions on this matter are probably well known on here, usually being one to shoot off at the mouth and having what I am trying to say end up sounding nothing like it.

I can honestly say that the only Scottish comment I came across in England was when we were first thinking of moving up here and someone said to me 'The scots hate the English, have a grudge against them that goes back years and is especially worse in the Highlands'.
I must say it didn't put us off - obviously - but that is the only thing I ever heard against the Scots.
Mostly up here I've come across banter (mainly on this org lol) except for a few comments in the town.
It's easy to be paranoid about such things here and in England when you're aware that it does go on.

Orkneylass: I get what you're saying, however I think slightly differently.
I don't believe that a persons birth in England or Scotland gives them more or less of a right to live there than someone else who was born elsewhere on this island.
At the end of the day it's all the UK, we all have British passports and we're all living in Britain - from John O Groats to Lands End.
I personally think that it's these ancient handed down prejudices (whether it's England or Scotland) that keep alive the discord between England & Scotland and I also think that thats what it is intended to do.
Don't get me wrong our grandfathers perhaps lived in a time when hostilities between the two were expected but seriously, let it go! (Not you Orkneylass, just all in general)
You made the comment about the incomers taking the jobs etc but when that comment is made by others regarding the immigrants, everyone gets up in arms and says they're doing jobs we're too lazy to or 'what does it matter if they're paying their way?'.

The animosity between England and Scotland needs to stop, it serves no purpose to either, except breeding contempt generation after generation.
Yes, awful things were carried by both and to each other but that was history, we should learn from the barbaric acts of the past and learn to move forward, not accept that Scotland is for the Scots only and that we should accept that we'll never truly belong or be accepted. (I honestly cannot say the same for England as I knew many scots down there and never once did they feel alienated)

[Woolie]

I myself am english and I can honestly say hand on heart I have never had a bad word said to about me being english i've had banter and a laugh from my friends here but nothing bad at all and as far as I know nither have any of my three children. I think the poeple up here have accepted us for who we are and not from where we come from.

[mccaugm]

I was always taught "Do as you would be done by". Its the way people should treat each other. I know this sounds like I live in Cloud Cuckoo land but hey I can dream, ala Martin Luther King.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
P.S. I could not care less who wins the football....I just wish they would stop ousting "The Bill" to accomodate it. RANT OVER

[Bulldog]

Since moving up here a few years ago I and her indoors have felt no annimosity at all and everyone has welcomed us with open arms. The only time the English word is mentioned is when football is talked about. I'm passionate about my footy be it my local or national team (the stick I get by supporting my local team is horrendous and also hearing the rival premiership side on the TV all the time drove me mad) so I do know how it feels to have it rammed down your throats. I love the banter but I know I should curb it - someone always goes too far, and I wouldn't want to be responsible for someone else getting hurt.
It's disgraceful that these people have been attacked especially one being a child and the other disabled- does friendly banter lead to this? If so I shall be zipping it, I want no part in that!
England as mentioned on an earlier thread has it's fair share of violent hooligans, Scotland is no different, or the rest of the world but I have a feeling this will get worse - made worse by the media.
Landmarker - I wouldn't worry about relocating, the place is fantastic and the people are better, I have never been made to feel an outsider up here, maybe an English hooligan but hey, part of the fun!

[Nello]

I think it goes on on both sides of the border and I have been on the receiving end of some while in the Forces but I take people as I find them, indeed my best mate is a lad from Devon who has lived in Scotland so long he considers himself virtually Scottish, he rang me to offer congratulations when we beat England in the six nations !!, At the end of the day it is a minority on both sides, let these babies have their bottles I say.

While in the Forces I saw banter of all kinds between all the Home Nations but when push came to shove we stuck together as Brits ..

[landmarker]

Don't get me wrong our grandfathers perhaps lived in a time when hostilities between the two were expected but seriously, let it go! )

Perhaps you are much older than I thought, but I'd imagine our generations'Grandads' both English & Scot were shoulder to shoulder in the trenches, fighting the hun, as the Germans were referred to at that time.

[porshiepoo]

Perhaps you are much older than I thought, but I'd imagine our generations'Grandads' both English & Scot were shoulder to shoulder in the trenches, fighting the hun, as the Germans were referred to at that time.

Point taken but you know what I meant.

I'm just trying to point out that I think the hostilities are pointless, futile and a complete waste of time and energy.
We all have our banter on here and I think alot of us could be accused of going to far at some point or another (many time for me I'm afraid), but at the end of the day there is no point to it is there?

[Kenn]

I too have never incurred any hostility when north of the border and have always found the people courteous.friendly.good humoured and more than ready to explain when a question is asked or a word not understood.
With regard to the reports today about football fans being assaulted for flying a flag that was not accepatble, I would put that down to general moronic behaviour and nothing to do with nationality.It's the same sort of person who attacks another because of their colour,creed or sexuality.These people are to be pitied for their lack of understanding,bigotry and general ignorance.

[Rheghead]

Well we all know which side of the border has the biggest chip on its shoulders don't we?

[Rheghead]

Perhaps you are much older than I thought, but I'd imagine our generations'Grandads' both English & Scot were shoulder to shoulder in the trenches, fighting the hun, as the Germans were referred to at that time.

Not quite. I watched a programme on SKY Discovery about the role of Scottish bagpipers in combat. They proved their worth in raising morale in battle so much with the Scottish regiments during WW1 that some were seconded to English regiments as well. A veteran of that era hastened to add that many of the pipers refused to be sent.

[JAWS]

If the assaults on the England Supporter which occurred today are the same ones I have just heard reported on the Radio then I don't particularly attribute it to any anti-English sentiment.

By the accounts given one was an assault by a jogger who on a seven year old boy. The other was carried out by somebody who was a little braver, he assaulted a 40 year old man, but he was only brave enough to do it because his victim was severely disabled.

Personally I consider people who carry out such deeds to be Scum whatever their Nationality, Race or Creed. Where ever they are from or whatever the excuse they will act in the same moronic way.

I suspect that the people who are most disgusted by such behaviour are the Scots themselves. Using National Sentiment as an excuse to assault a small child and somebody with a severe disability I think would offend the people of any Nation. From experience, they certainly are not typical of any Scot I have ever met either here in Scotland or elsewhere and there have been some rather rum characters amongst them.

[The Pepsi Challenge]

If the assaults on the England Supporter which occurred today are the same ones I have just heard reported on the Radio then I don't particularly attribute it to any anti-English sentiment.

By the accounts given one was an assault by a jogger who on a seven year old boy. The other was carried out by somebody who was a little braver, he assaulted a 40 year old man, but he was only brave enough to do it because his victim was severely disabled.

Personally I consider people who carry out such deeds to be Scum whatever their Nationality, Race or Creed. Where ever they are from or whatever the excuse they will act in the same moronic way.

I suspect that the people who are most disgusted by such behaviour are the Scots themselves. Using National Sentiment as an excuse to assault a small child and somebody with a severe disability I think would offend the people of any Nation. From experience, they certainly are not typical of any Scot I have ever met either here in Scotland or elsewhere and there have been some rather rum characters amongst them.

Totally agree with you JAWS. Turns out the man who assaulted the 40-year-old was a Rangers supporter. Which is confusing considering their support sings God Save The Queen and Rule Brittannia, and waves the British Union Jack and Red Hand flag of the mickey mouse partial province, yet acts like that? Total disgrace. That's as much as I'm going to say on the subject, as the mods don't want this descending into a 'football thang'. Anyway, Scotsboy will be along shortly to say it was a Celtic supporter wearing a Rangers jersey on purpose.

[porshiepoo]

With reference to the 'banter' that goes on on here and in public by both the English and the scots, I guess I have to ask myself every now again 'How much of it is lighthearted banter and how much of it is genuine animosity disguised as light hearted banter?'. Unfortunately I have a sneaky feeling that alot of it may be the latter.

We all know that this animosity exists here (and elsewhere) but is probably kept behind closed doors and in my book that doesn't make it any better or more acceptable.
Like I said before though, paranoia is a powerful thing and I'm now finding myself re-thinking about comments that locals have made to me in the past and wondering what if..........

As for the footie hooligans. Unfortunately boys will be boys and when theres a big ball involved (ironic) all common sense just seems to be lost in that 'manly'(?) need to beat everyone else, and that goes for every creed, colour and race.
England have idiot hooligans such as those that have been mentioned on here before as does scotland - The guy who got quite down and dirty with his kilt recently letting everyone know there is nothing underneath and then resisting arrest for public indecency.

[spurtle]

I moved to scotland quite along time ago when I was 12 and the reception I got with an English accent in school was less than light-hearted.It was the first time I'd experienced being a complete outsider, though I'm Scottish with an English accent it doesn't matter.So the parents may think it's light hearted banter but do their children?
Even as an adult I still come in for the same about my accent, maybe it's funny the first couple of times but after years of it , it gets very boring.The whole anti english thing I find pathetic, it shows weakness in a nation to have to hate the other side ,which is the same as football, you don't have to hate the other side to be proud of your own.

[JimH]

My first experience of Scotland was as a young Soldier in REME being posted to Redford Cavalry Barracks, Edinburgh, to the Scottish Tank Regt - 4 RTR - and then going overseas with them. WE had no race or other problems.
Since then we have spent many holidays here, and enjoyed everyone.
Once retired we moved to Caithness - We should have done it years ago.
WE have made many friends and enjoy OUR community.
Yes - I shout for England at Football - Cricket - Rugby If we are not playing then I shout for Scotland - Wales - Ireland or last night I shouted for Holland.
Who cares - my Scottish neighbour does'nt.
The tabloid media will make hay with the Scotsman that threw away a used matchstick in Wales whilst riding on a German made English Train, eating Italien food.
We have to keep our sense - and regardless of who you are - it is still nice to be BRITSH and when asked for country of birth I write England - when asked for my Nationality I say British. Even now it still means something in the world - for better or worse.
IT IS ONLY A VERY SMALL MINORITY THE CAUSE THE PROBLEMS.
The rest of us will carry on as we always do.
As to the question about "The chip on the shoulder" - the best way of dealing with that has always been to "pat it off".
Remember we still live in the UNITED KINGDOM of GREAT BRITAIN and NORTHERN IRELAND.

[bigjjuk]

im probably the most english of people u will ever meet, the people who know me will agree too. I love Scotland, Its one of the only things i have done right.
The people here are awesome, friendly and helpful, I have made great friends and look for more too. I have been here 3 years and received only minor anti-english from drunk men in the street. But i would never move back to england i love caithness to much now, sorry to those anti english guys
I do agree though that some English and Scottish people have made these feelings worse then what they really are. The problems arise when people take note to what is happening and take sides.
So dont take sides and stick down the middle and it will all blow over.

[Naefearjustbeer]

I was quite disgusted by the reports on the radio about the assaults, as mentioned before the perpetrators are by no way representive of Scotland and Scottish people. However there are moronic idiots everywhare that commit crimes for many other mindless reasons. The fact that the world cup is on at the moment probally is a valid excuse in these small minded idiots. I have no time for idiots or football.

I am I suppose as guilty as many other scottish people with my anti english banter. And banter is exactly what it is. I do not seek out and victimise or assualt english people. I have friends that are english and they throw Jock jokes in my direction just as much as I thow english jokes at them. It is a 2 way street. I cannot see the harm in that. I always give people the same chances no matter where they come from or what colour they may be. I deal with each person as an individual as I hope they do with me.
I have heard so many jokes about tightfisted ginger haired jocks. I supose it is only fair that I am allowed to joke about the english in return We have just had some english guys working with us and they have been slagging us off for not even getting into the world cup!! Did we beat them up? No we just threw cheek back at them.

[landmarker]

The central thrust behind originating this thread was that there is now evidence of a backlash south of the border. I take all your comments on board, and I too, hope this soon blows over. When this football tournament is out of the way perhaps. I do think though that some Scottish politicians at Westminster will pay some kind of price for this.

Nationalism is on the rise in England. I do not welcome it as ideally, I subscribe to the 'British' viewpoint and consider all of mainland Britain my natural home, except perhaps the far west of north Wales, where I cannot, sadly, speak their language, which is more in evidence than Gaelic up north.

I fly an English flag on my car on the days we are playing in the tournament*, but I will remove this next week when I motor north, I suppose I would not feel comfortable leaving it on, in consideration of where I was - a different country.This is not a contradiction. Scotland and England ARE different places.

I would not see a need for similar action if a saltyre was hoisted heading south however, especially if it were football related.

I'd remove it as a token of respect and not because I was 'feart' of getting duffed up. After all, that symbol has undoubtedly been used in anger in times gone by as a rallying point for invaders and pillagers. So , off it would come. Common sense? Deference ? Hopefully both, although there are few occasions the two go together.

* leaving it on all the time increases fuel consumption - drag.