Grand National

[ducati]

It seems to me, that anyone who is prepared to accept the deaths of 3 to 5 horses each time this event is run, doesn't care much about horses.

If you think that is an extreme view, thats your problem.

[ducati]

Can I just ask,for sure, Do horses like to gallop then run and sprint ?? then jump ??

And I can I also ask, are there people nowadays who are offended by absolutely everything that everyone else used to call a tradition ?

If Horse racing is cruel, the RSPCA will surely put an end to it? And how many races are there in the UK in 365 days a year ??

Some people just , imo, live to be offended or am I just mad ?

Sadly Amy, you are indeed mad.

People who are offended by mindless cruelty to animals are not living to be offended.

[Anfield]

There seems to be a hiatus from the pro Grand National mob

[scorrie]

Times have moved on since the horrific 1855 race recounted below:-

http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/turf/index.html

[scorrie]

It seems to me, that anyone who is prepared to accept the deaths of 3 to 5 horses each time this event is run, doesn't care much about horses.

If you think that is an extreme view, thats your problem.

No horses died this year, can you explain why?

Animal Aid condemn Aintree as the worst racecourse in the UK for Horse deaths, except when they are saying that Cheltenham is the worst racecourse in the UK for horse deaths, oh, and, of course, when they are telling you that Sedgefield is the worst racecourse in the UK for horse deaths. These people cannot even put up a consistent front, all they know is looking at numbers and seeing that 11 is bigger than 9 (for example)

The RSPCA asked that Jockeys pull-up tired horses, when Jockeys did that, people then waffle on about less runners finishing the race!! Duh!!

[Anfield]

Can I ask how many horses were killed during the Ayr meeting compared to the Aintree Grand National Meeting?

Scorrie
Perhaps you would like to answer the above question

[ducati]

No horses died this year, can you explain why?

Animal Aid condemn Aintree as the worst racecourse in the UK for Horse deaths, except when they are saying that Cheltenham is the worst racecourse in the UK for horse deaths, oh, and, of course, when they are telling you that Sedgefield is the worst racecourse in the UK for horse deaths. These people cannot even put up a consistent front, all they know is looking at numbers and seeing that 11 is bigger than 9 (for example)

The RSPCA asked that Jockeys pull-up tired horses, when Jockeys did that, people then waffle on about less runners finishing the race!! Duh!!

I don't know who Animal Aid are.

I was making an observation.

If you would like to refute that people who are prepared to accept the deaths of horses don't care about horses, I would be interested to hear.

[scorrie]

Scorrie
Perhaps you would like to answer the above question

This thread is about the Grand National. I have never denied that horse deaths occur there, or at other courses. No horses were killed at The Grand National this year, the reason for that must be the first issue addressed.

[scorrie]

I don't know who Animal Aid are.

I was making an observation.

If you would like to refute that people who are prepared to accept the deaths of horses don't care about horses, I would be interested to hear.

Try googling Animalaid.

We can all make observations, they work better if you know what you are talking about though!!

Most, if not all, racehorse grooms love the horses they look after, it is evident to anyone with even half an eye. Many owners hold similar sentiments, if you knew much about the subject at all, you would well know that. Accidents are the sad reality in horse racing on both the jumps and the flat. After a tragedy, grooms get back to their job and care for the next horse as best as they can, it is an insult to suggest that they don't love the animal they tend to and those who suggest otherwise are on Planet Zanussi!!

[Anfield]

This thread is about the Grand National. I have never denied that horse deaths occur there, or at other courses. No horses were killed at The Grand National this year, the reason for that must be the first issue addressed.

I know that there were no fatalities at this years Grand National race at Aintree this year, but just in case you have forgotten 4 horses were killed over the three days of this years meeting.

You have once again failed to answer my question about fatalities at Ayr during Scottish Grand National (SGN).
I have done a search and can not find any details of a horse being killed at Ayr during the SGN.
I did a similar search for the Irish Grand National (IGN) which shows that the race in 2009 resulted in two deaths.

The Welsh Grand National, like the SGN, also failed to find any reports of a death.

These figures would suggest that the English Grand National is a race with serious horse safety problems which need to be addressed before any further horses are killed

Perhaps with your extensive knowlege of horse racing you could confirm
the accuracy of the statistics I have quoted

[Creme_Egg]

poor things! why? all in the name of.........SPORT/FUN

[ducati]

Try googling Animalaid.

We can all make observations, they work better if you know what you are talking about though!!

Most, if not all, racehorse grooms love the horses they look after, it is evident to anyone with even half an eye. Many owners hold similar sentiments, if you knew much about the subject at all, you would well know that. Accidents are the sad reality in horse racing on both the jumps and the flat. After a tragedy, grooms get back to their job and care for the next horse as best as they can, it is an insult to suggest that they don't love the animal they tend to and those who suggest otherwise are on Planet Zanussi!!

So you are not prepared to accept that to put a horse into a race where there is a good chance some horses will die, is at best uncaring?

I am not judging, but have the courage to admit that the risk is worth it for the sport.

BTW. Why do feel the need to use such an insulting tone in your posts?

[rhoda]

I have been around horses now for the best part of fifty years, breeding, breaking, showing, competing and working on the land with horses. Unfortunately horses being the animals they are will get themselves in to difficulties and die. I have seen fatalities at local shows, cross country events and with horses at home in their fields and looseboxes. Yes, granted there is a greater risk at speed in the heat of a race over jumps but even on the flat horses break down and break legs, fact of life I'm afraid. I would be the first to admit they are the most noble of gods creatures but would urge that people who feel so passionately about stopping the National would turn their attentions to stopping the dreadful conditions of horses and ponies being travelled throughout Europe to the slaughterhouses. Mares and foals loaded loose with stallions, all ages, all sizes and many not even fit to travel. Dragged off lorries by JCB's, no water, food or rest during travel. Now there is your real cruelty.

[ducati]

I have been around horses now for the best part of fifty years, breeding, breaking, showing, competing and working on the land with horses. Unfortunately horses being the animals they are will get themselves in to difficulties and die. I have seen fatalities at local shows, cross country events and with horses at home in their fields and looseboxes. Yes, granted there is a greater risk at speed in the heat of a race over jumps but even on the flat horses break down and break legs, fact of life I'm afraid. I would be the first to admit they are the most noble of gods creatures but would urge that people who feel so passionately about stopping the National would turn their attentions to stopping the dreadful conditions of horses and ponies being travelled throughout Europe to the slaughterhouses. Mares and foals loaded loose with stallions, all ages, all sizes and many not even fit to travel. Dragged off lorries by JCB's, no water, food or rest during travel. Now there is your real cruelty.

Yes Rhoda, very upsetting. This thread caught my eye because people appeared to be trying to justify endangering horses in the name of sport.

The meat trade is a different matter, one I am equally upset by, but if we take every opportunity to make people think about what they may take for granted, like taking a harmless flutter on the National, for instance, slowly we may change attitudes.

[scorrie]

I know that there were no fatalities at this years Grand National race at Aintree this year, but just in case you have forgotten 4 horses were killed over the three days of this years meeting.

You have once again failed to answer my question about fatalities at Ayr during Scottish Grand National (SGN).
I have done a search and can not find any details of a horse being killed at Ayr during the SGN.
I did a similar search for the Irish Grand National (IGN) which shows that the race in 2009 resulted in two deaths.

The Welsh Grand National, like the SGN, also failed to find any reports of a death.

These figures would suggest that the English Grand National is a race with serious horse safety problems which need to be addressed before any further horses are killed

Perhaps with your extensive knowlege of horse racing you could confirm
the accuracy of the statistics I have quoted

I watched the Scottish National, I did not see any horses die. This fact merely confirms that it was the same as the Grand National in regards to fatalities. What big point does that prove in the scheme of this discussion.

Let us now investigate your research:-

No horses died in the Grand National.
No horses died in the Scottish National.
No horses died in the Welsh National.
Two horses died in the Irish National.

YOUR conclusion:-

The ENGLISH National is the one with safety problems!!

This despite the IRISH race being the only one with fatalities in your list.

You are simply Googling on the back of little, or no, real knowledge of the topic being discussed. Just like Animal Aid you are pulling out numbers and trying to make them prove something they cannot do whilst, all the time, true cruelty is running rampant.

[Anfield]

I watched the Scottish National, I did not see any horses die. This fact merely confirms that it was the same as the Grand National in regards to fatalities. What big point does that prove in the scheme of this discussion.

Let us now investigate your research:-

No horses died in the Grand National.
No horses died in the Scottish National.
No horses died in the Welsh National.
Two horses died in the Irish National.

YOUR conclusion:-

The ENGLISH National is the one with safety problems!!

This despite the IRISH race being the only one with fatalities in your list.

You are simply Googling on the back of little, or no, real knowledge of the topic being discussed. Just like Animal Aid you are pulling out numbers and trying to make them prove something they cannot do whilst, all the time, true cruelty is running rampant.

Once again I must remind you to read posts fully before replying.
I stated in my post that the two deaths in IGN occurred in 2009 meeting i.e the same year that five horses were killed at Aintree.

And I thought you knew about horse racing.

[scorrie]

So you are not prepared to accept that to put a horse into a race where there is a good chance some horses will die, is at best uncaring?

I am not judging, but have the courage to admit that the risk is worth it for the sport.

BTW. Why do feel the need to use such an insulting tone in your posts?

Someone on another forum did a calculation of horse fatalities against the number of races run in the UK. The statistics showed that the chance of a horse dying in a race is a bit less than 0.5%, obviously the Grand National will be a greater risk than that.

I cannot accept that people who enter their horse into the race don't care about the animals though. I watched trainer Jenny Pitman on TV just before the race one year and her sole concern going into the race was not about how her horses would perform but about the fact that they all came back in safe and sound. Owners enter their horses knowing that there is a risk but that the risk is relatively small. You seem to be saying that owners don't care about the horses and I DO NOT accept that this is the case. You say you are NOT judging but I believe that this is EXACTLY what you are doing. You are making judgements about the people who own, train and look after horses, based on what appears to be an outsider's view backed up with little in-depth knowledge.

I believe that groups such as Animal Aid put pressure on the RSPCA to speak up against the Grand National. I am pretty sure that RSPCA resources could/would be better spent tackling far more heinous crimes and I detect a strong sense of self-servicing, rather than horse welfare, at the top of Animal Aid's anti Grand National bluster.

[scorrie]

Once again I must remind you to read posts fully before replying.
I stated in my post that the two deaths in IGN occurred in 2009 meeting i.e the same year that five horses were killed at Aintree.

And I thought you knew about horse racing.

So it is OK for you to mix and match years then? Why are you wittering on about THIS years Scottish National, if it is LAST year you are talking about?

Only one horse (Hear the Echo) died in the 2009 Grand National, collapsing AFTER the race. That still leaves the Irish Grand National with the greater death toll with two fatalities.

Talking about unanswered questions, you have still to explain to me why Animal Aid call Cheltenham the most dangerous meeting for racehorses. Can you also explain to me why horses died at this years Aintree meeting over a course only covering half of the fences jumped in the Grand National, yet NONE died over the full course?

If you can answer some of those questions it might create more credibility for yourself.

[scorrie]

The meat trade is a different matter, one I am equally upset by, but if we take every opportunity to make people think about what they may take for granted, like taking a harmless flutter on the National, for instance, slowly we may change attitudes.

I completely disagree with the logic here. The British Public can watch the Grand National and make their own minds up about whether it is cruel or not. They see fit, and well looked after, horses doing a job they are bred to do and exhibiting natural instincts to run and jump. When they see an unfortunate fatality, they can make their mind up whether it is cruel and whether they will have a bet in future. Nobody tries to hide the fact that horses sometimes die and plenty of groups love to whoop those deaths from the nearest available soapbox. Meanwhile, Joe Public is often unaware of the casual cruelty that goes on day to day in Britain and worldwide. Bringing THAT cruelty into the spotlight would do far more to begin a change in attitude, if that change can ever take place. Trying to equate one event with another is simply barking up the wrong tree (or Aintree even)

[Anfield]

Meanwhile, Joe Public is often unaware of the casual cruelty that goes on day to day in Britain and worldwide. Bringing THAT cruelty into the spotlight would do far more to begin a change in attitude, if that change can ever take place. Trying to equate one event with another is simply barking up the wrong tree

I am sure you will find that there are hundreds of animal welfare groups up and down the country, including the RSPCA & SSPCA who are spotlighting the other forms of cruelty you mention.
I think you will also find it was not myself or Ducati who tried to equate this issue with other aspects of animal welfare, look a bit closer to home.[/quote]

Someone on another forum did a calculation of horse fatalities against the number of races run in the UK. The statistics showed that the chance of a horse dying in a race is a bit less than 0.5%, obviously the Grand National will be a greater risk than that.

Would you like to share the source of the above infomation with us as I can not find a breakdown of deaths by starts at English Racecourses.

I did find an American one though which stated:

"..that during races at the state’s four major thoroughbred tracks, deaths have dropped from 3.05 per 1,000 starts to 1.93 since the installation of synthetic tracks.."

As from previous posts it appears that your maths is not 100% I would inform you that 1.93% is approx. 4 time more than the .5%.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2...ehorse-deaths/

Talking about unanswered questions, you have still to explain to me why Animal Aid call Cheltenham the most dangerous meeting for racehorses.

If you can answer some of those questions it might create more credibility for yourself.

Take a look at:
http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/table.php
use the Course filter and you will find that since site started in 2007 there has been:

Aintree 17 deaths
Cheltenham 22 deaths

Does that answer your questions for you? and can I have my credibility back

How much deeper a hole are you digging for yourself