Grand National

**scorrie** · 11-Apr-10, 17:33

Originally Posted by Anfield

OK. I am entitled to my opinion.
In my opinion, you are an idiot.

Were you too embarrassed to advise people on here that 4 horses were killed at Aintree this year?

As for Googling stats, wasn't it you that compared the number of horses killed in races, to the number of children killed in road accidents.
I am still trying to work that connection out.

You make no sense at all. How can I be accused of being embarrassed about advising people of 4 horse deaths over the three day meeting, when I freely admitted that 2 were killed in one race?

You are clutching at straws and failing miserably.

My comparison with child deaths on Britain's roads is easy enough to work out. What should be our priority in life, ending deaths of Children on our roads or ranting on about a horse race that is targeted because of its high profile?

Far greater wanton neglect of horse and many other animals goes on every day in this country and represent true cruelty and not misfortune befalling (well looked after and loved) horses on a racecourse.

You have no intention of looking at this argument from behind your own blinkered, and ill educated, viewpoint. It should be reasonable to find out more about the topic you are discussing before making sensational statements (eg Killing Fields)

Coo-holiday-half-ken-much-as

**Anfield** · 11-Apr-10, 19:42

Originally Posted by scorrie

You make no sense at all. How can I be accused of being embarrassed about advising people of 4 horse deaths over the three day meeting, when I freely admitted that 2 were killed in one race?

My comparison with child deaths on Britain's roads is easy enough to work out. What should be our priority in life, ending deaths of Children on our roads or ranting on about a horse race that is targeted because of its high profile?

Far greater wanton neglect of horse and many other animals goes on every day in this country and represent true cruelty and not misfortune befalling (well looked after and loved) horses on a racecourse.

You have no intention of looking at this argument from behind your own blinkered, and ill educated, viewpoint. It should be reasonable to find out more about the topic you are discussing before making sensational statements (eg Killing Fields)

Coo-holiday-half-ken-much-as

The national is not being "targeted" because of its high profile, none of the flat racing Classics attract protests from Animal Aid or the "Extremist" RSPCA.
The Grand National meeting is targeted because it is a cruel event, and every year horses are killed.

It is also interesting to note that only 16 horses finished out of 40 starters.

You state "..Far greater wanton neglect of horse and many other animals goes on every day in this country and represent true cruelty and not misfortune befalling (well looked after and loved) horses on a racecourse.."
You must mean like this video link:
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/f/CAMP...//4//?be_id=92

If over 500 horses are killed on racecourses throughout the UK, I think I am correct to describe them as "The Killing Fields"

I think that by adding in a totally irrelevant topic to thread, that you have ran out of arguments to defend this cruel race.

Sigo pensando que eres un idiota

**brandy** · 11-Apr-10, 20:08

personally i would call this horse cruelty
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...y-1703931.html
just watched the above video.. dont get the point if its meant to be cruelty.. its not.. they shot it in the head.. it was dead before it would have ever felt anything.
should it had been done? more than likley not.. it could have been rehomed if some one wanted to take the time to do it.
however, this goes back to the throw away society that we live in, not to the race courses.. the pony was of no use to the owners anymore, taking up income more than like,
and the cheap way to get rid of it.. sell it to a slaughter house and you have glue.
is it nice to see.. nope but when have we ever claimed to live in a nice world.. have you ever seen cattle or other animals slaughtered ? its not a pretty sight.. the pony died very quicky and cleanly..
at least it didnt suffer.

**rhoda** · 11-Apr-10, 22:10

Whilst not wanting to add to Annfields distress I would point out that of the thousands of thoroughbred foals born each year only a small percentage ever reach a racecourse due to breaking down in training. National Hunt horses have a much longer competitive life due to many being broken in later and moving up through point to points, hurdles and then on to steeplechasing. Flat racers are usually broken at two years old and are ridden at full race speed soon afterwards so think of the effect on immature bones, muscles and minds.

**Anfield** · 12-Apr-10, 00:02

Originally Posted by rhoda

Whilst not wanting to add to Annfields distress I would point out that of the thousands of thoroughbred foals born each year only a small percentage ever reach a racecourse due to breaking down in training. National Hunt horses have a much longer competitive life due to many being broken in later and moving up through point to points, hurdles and then on to steeplechasing. Flat racers are usually broken at two years old and are ridden at full race speed soon afterwards so think of the effect on immature bones, muscles and minds.

Rhoda, You obviously have more knowledge than Scorrie, and your post is concise and to point, without the waffle and abuse of above person.

I went back to British Horse Racing website (http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/media/publications_and_reports/Stats-SectionERacecourses.pdf
and I am a bit confused as to the number of horses for each type of racing i.e. flat & NH.
In 2008 there were 61,998 entrants for flat races but only 36,016 for NH events.
If what you are saying about only a small amount of foals make the grade is correct, how many foals are actually being born and what happens to the ones that do not make it.
Also do you have a figure of NH foals

**Shabbychic** · 12-Apr-10, 00:53

Originally Posted by scorrie

Some people seem to take offence at the wind changing direction. I don't recall mentioning your name anywhere nor labelling you as one of the extremists I mention. It is a simple fact that some animal rights extremists have no problem with the idea of injuring people in their quest for "Justice" for animals. Some of them even dug up some old wifie's body from her grave in recent times!!

One of my former (female) work colleagues received a threat by telephone from some animal rights protester (also a woman) about 10 years ago for the "crime" of working in a betting office. I defend my right to label that as both perverse and cowardly and the person involved must have been a few fences short of a Grand National in the great Brain steeplechase of life.

Some people may very well take offence at the wind changing direction, but I am not one of them. You may not have mentioned my name anywhere, but since I was the first person to speak out about my views on this race, and I have seen no posts from any animal extremists, I can only assume you are directing your comments at posters like Anfield and myself, and I don't believe either of us have dug up any bodies lately.

You have every right to label whatever you believe to be perverse or cowardly, but as none of these types have posted on this thread, who are you aiming your comments at? Believe it or not, some people can have views without being extremists.

What it all boils down to is, you enjoy horse racing, and I don't. I can live with that. I don't intend to justify myself to you or anyone else, but if you feel the need to do so, carry on.

**golach** · 12-Apr-10, 10:14

Originally Posted by Anfield

If you are going to quote figures, then check them first.
4 Horses died at Aintree this year:

How many horses are killed every day in France? just for food

**Anfield** · 12-Apr-10, 12:22

Originally Posted by golach

How many horses are killed every day in France? just for food

And where do they come from?

"..It is not illegal to eat horsemeat in the UK but to most British people it is a taboo food. However, thousands of horses are slaughtered annually for human consumption overseas at three abattoirs in England: Potters Abattoir near Bristol; Cheshire Equine Services, Nantwich; and RE Williams & Son, Weobley, Herefordshire.
FAOSTAT figures reveal the first export of 1606 tonnes of UK horsemeat to Europe was in 1963. After that it steadily increased most years to a peak in 1982 of 7,781 tonnes representing the slaughter of 26,000 horses.[1] By 1997, the UK trade figures for "Meat of horses, asses, mules, hinnies: fresh, chilled, frozen" showed that 2,515 tonnes were exported, mostly to France. In 2000 it was 2857 tonnes (9,500 horses) mainly to France but some to Belgium. After that the quantity declined to 1,576 tonnes exported in 2004.[2] Currently DEFRA estimates that between 6,000 and 10,000 horses are being killed annually for consumption abroad

A spokesperson for Potters Abattoir estimated that 80% of the horses they receive are Thoroughbreds, 10% of which come directly from the racing and breeding sector, some after a varying period of retirement.[4] A further percentage comes from the 4000 or so Thoroughbreds bred in the UK every year with insufficient ability to be worth racing or breeding from,[5] which take a circuitous route to slaughter via a sports and eventing career first. Still others would be the never raced or retired but still sound Thoroughbreds of suitable type and temperament sold on to other disciplines and which in time also take the slaughter road. The abattoirs pay as much as ₤650 for a large Thoroughbred,[5] an attractive proposition to owners faced with the major expense of disposal by other means, anything from £150 for collection and processing by a renderer to £750 or more for home euthanasia and cremation.[4]

http://www.optimail.com.au/berrime/s...UNITED_KINGDOM

**golach** · 12-Apr-10, 12:34

Originally Posted by Anfield

And where do they come from?

The Diners here will not care where they come from

http://www.guardian.co.uk/edinburgh/...d-in-edinburgh

**scorrie** · 12-Apr-10, 16:20

Originally Posted by Anfield

The national is not being "targeted" because of its high profile, none of the flat racing Classics attract protests from Animal Aid or the "Extremist" RSPCA.
The Grand National meeting is targeted because it is a cruel event, and every year horses are killed.

It is also interesting to note that only 16 horses finished out of 40 starters.

You state "..Far greater wanton neglect of horse and many other animals goes on every day in this country and represent true cruelty and not misfortune befalling (well looked after and loved) horses on a racecourse.."
You must mean like this video link:
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/f/CAMP...//4//?be_id=92

If over 500 horses are killed on racecourses throughout the UK, I think I am correct to describe them as "The Killing Fields"

I think that by adding in a totally irrelevant topic to thread, that you have ran out of arguments to defend this cruel race.

Sigo pensando que eres un idiota

I am not running out of arguments (there are only so many to put anyway) you simply aren't willing to listen to anything.

I seem to recall that this was supposed to be about the Grand National in particular, so your mention of 500 horses killed on UK racecourses merely supports my assertion that the Grand National is far from unique in being a site of horse fatalities. If you look at the Cheltenham Festival (run every year in March) you will read that 31 horses have died there since 1999 (from the animal aid website), can you please explain in which way this is less cruel than The Grand National? Horses can fall at any time on any racecourse. Fatal falls are a matter of bad luck and there is a tiny percentage chance that a horse will die at any time. With bigger fields at Aintree, the overall chance of a death increases in accordance.

Only 16 finished the race? Actually it was only 14 plus the one who refused to race. There was the usual mixed bag of fallers, brought down, unseated rider and pulled up runners. All that matters is that they all came home safe. Any horse can fall, Kauto Star, the top rated jump horse and two time Gold Cup winner fell in this year's Gold Cup. It is part of the risk involved. Best Mate, three time Gold Cup winner, fell fatally on a racecourse in France, nothing to do with lack of quality, experience of the horse or the type of fences involved, just bad luck.

I would like to reproduce something from the animal aid website that demonstrates their lack of credibility and undermines themselves. It regards former Gold Cup winner Denman and, interestingly, they describe Cheltenham as the world's most demanding race meeting:-

"Animal Aid has for many years expressed deep concern for all the horses who are forced to compete at the world's most demanding race meeting. This year, Animal Aid call into question the proposed running of Gold Cup challenger, Denman, after a worrying heart problem and a recent poor performance.

The national campaign group wrote to the British Horseracing Authority on March 4th asking what veterinary checks Denman would receive prior to the race. No answer has been received."

Now, do these people, for one minute, think that the trainer and owners would let the horse take his place in the race if they were not 100% CERTAIN of the horse's well being? It is an insult to all concerned for Animal Aid to shout the odds about whether an owner has taken precautions regarding the horse's welfare. Paul Nichols is a champion trainer and, would you believe it, Denman ran in the race finishing a gallant second place, hardly likely if he had a serious heart problem!!

I'm pretty much done with this subject, deaf ears and all that!!

**scorrie** · 12-Apr-10, 19:03

Originally Posted by Shabbychic

Some people may very well take offence at the wind changing direction, but I am not one of them. You may not have mentioned my name anywhere, but since I was the first person to speak out about my views on this race, and I have seen no posts from any animal extremists, I can only assume you are directing your comments at posters like Anfield and myself, and I don't believe either of us have dug up any bodies lately.

You have every right to label whatever you believe to be perverse or cowardly, but as none of these types have posted on this thread, who are you aiming your comments at? Believe it or not, some people can have views without being extremists.

What it all boils down to is, you enjoy horse racing, and I don't. I can live with that. I don't intend to justify myself to you or anyone else, but if you feel the need to do so, carry on.

You are free to assume anything you wish. Extremists do not have to post here in order either to exist, nor for me to refer to them!! I believe a large amount of talking is being done on the back of a very little knowledge of the subject in hand. It is my view that readers have the right to see the other side of what started off as a pretty much one-sided decrying of the Grand National. I have watched over Thirty Grand Nationals and seen the changes made to the course and the facilities for dealing with any injured horses. The racecourse is moving in line with criticism but the same old rant comes from people like Animal Aid every single year despite the clear consideration given to improving horse welfare at the racecourse. I see that attitude as being counter productive for Animal Aid and other groups.

**scorrie** · 12-Apr-10, 22:50

Originally Posted by rhoda

Whilst not wanting to add to Annfields distress I would point out that of the thousands of thoroughbred foals born each year only a small percentage ever reach a racecourse due to breaking down in training. National Hunt horses have a much longer competitive life due to many being broken in later and moving up through point to points, hurdles and then on to steeplechasing. Flat racers are usually broken at two years old and are ridden at full race speed soon afterwards so think of the effect on immature bones, muscles and minds.

As you say, two years of age is the youngest category of racing in the UK. The racing calendar is structured however, with only five furlong races at the beginning of the season, this increases to 6 furlong races and later to include 7 furlong races and one mile races later in the season. There is one race of 1 mile 2 furlongs (Zetland Stakes) run at Newmarket in late October, which is the longest race for two year old horses and is contested by stoutly bred individuals who will be stayers the following year. Trainers know how much racing a young horse can take and whether they are bred and ready to race at two or need more time to mature. Good trainers with understanding owners will always be patient with a two year old. Many more flat race horses would have longer careers were it not for the fact that they hold too much potential stud value. Most classic winning flat racers retire at the age of three nowadays. There are some tough old horses on the flat as well though, mostly at a lower grade but I have seen 12 year old horses winning five furlong sprints on the flat.

I can confirm that the greatest Grand National horse of all time (Red Rum) who won the race three times, was broken at the age of two and raced as a two year old, winning a five furlong selling race in the process!!

**Kodiak** · 13-Apr-10, 12:55

To me the Race I think was the best Grand National was in 1967 when Foinavon at 100/1 won.

I remember watching this on TV as it happened and was completely Gob-Smacked when all the horses got tangled up and let Foinavon get such a lead that no one could catch him up.

A Genuine classic race this was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0n--...layer_embedded

**rhoda** · 13-Apr-10, 18:36

I wholeheartedly agree with nearly all that scorrie has posted but if it were not for Southport sands and the sea water he was regularly exercised in Red Rum would have gone the way of the majority of broken down racehorses. Ginger Maccain at the time could not afford top class chasers and was happy to take on Rummy and nurse him back to health and lets face it what a job he made. By the way how many remember when Red Rum came to Caithness for the opening of the indoor school at Halkirk?

**scorrie** · 13-Apr-10, 22:37

Originally Posted by rhoda

I wholeheartedly agree with nearly all that scorrie has posted but if it were not for Southport sands and the sea water he was regularly exercised in Red Rum would have gone the way of the majority of broken down racehorses. Ginger Maccain at the time could not afford top class chasers and was happy to take on Rummy and nurse him back to health and lets face it what a job he made. By the way how many remember when Red Rum came to Caithness for the opening of the indoor school at Halkirk?

I don't recall Red Rum being in Caithness, I was still at School back then but would have loved to have seen him.

I thoroughly agree that the attrition rate is high with racehorses. I was once given the comparison that a racehorse running was like humans trying to run on their fingernails. That is the nature of the beast but we have used horses for transport, ferrying goods etc for a very long time. Horse racing was a progression from that and I wish that welfare groups would get real and move the focus away from well looked after Grand National runners and do more to concentrate on horses who are not lucky enough to make that grade or who are simply treated like rubbish by their owners.

Equine care is much improved at Aintree, there are seven vets on-hand, five mobile and two stationed in the hospital. There are treatment boxes, an x-ray unit, a solarium and video endoscopy available and if the horse needs further treatment it is rushed, under Police escort to the equine hospital at The University of Liverpool. I do not know if animal welfare groups are aware of this but they never acknowledge any of it, that is for sure!!

**Anfield** · 14-Apr-10, 15:52

Originally Posted by scorrie

".. I wish that welfare groups would get real and move the focus away from well looked after Grand National runners and do more to concentrate on horses who are not lucky enough to make that grade or who are simply treated like rubbish by their owners.

Equine care is much improved at Aintree, there are seven vets on-hand, five mobile and two stationed in the hospital. There are treatment boxes, an x-ray unit, a solarium and video endoscopy available and if the horse needs further treatment it is rushed, under Police escort to the equine hospital at The University of Liverpool. I do not know if animal welfare groups are aware of this but they never acknowledge any of it, that is for sure!!

The lady doth protest too much, methinks