what a crazy world we live in

[squidge]

Statistics and lies I hear folk cry, the fact is, these cons can't behave themselves and they require higher walls and stronger bars on the windows. After half a century of namby pamby rehabilitation we still have a soaring crime rate and my gut feeling is that if we can degrade these people so much then they might just get the message that society wants to get real with them.

That woman was in custody and she has no privacy and if that extends to her giving birth then so be it. The kid isn't being harmed by it and neither is she. Crikey, hospital staff used to tie women down whilst giving birth at one time so what is the difference?

A mark of society is that if we go too namby pamby on felons then it will cave in on itself.

I bet your bottom dollar that the first time she had to obey a rule since leaving school was when she got taken to prison yet most of us have too obey rules all our lives.

It is just a handcuff at the end of the day!!

Rehabilitation????? Dont make me laugh - we make noises about rehabilitation and ensuring people dont reoffend but we dont actually DO anything about it? Degrade them? then they come out and have less self respect and less respect for anyone else - thats going to help then. Take the baby off them? what when a girl might have a six month or one year sentence. What you gonna do with the baby they remove from her? What about other children she might have? You say we dont know the facts you are right we dont but there is as much chance - perhaps more that she is in need of compassion as there is that she is wicked and evil. It sometimes appears that society is harder on women who break the law than on men. As if its somehow worse that a woman breaks the law than a man cos women are supposed to be softer gentler and more subservient.

There are people who have first hand experience of dealing with offenders post on this board maybe they would be able to reasure me they were all wicked greedy and cruel with no hope of rehabilitation.

[golach]

also as you have never given birth.. you can have no idea of how horrendous and traumatic an experiance it is.

Oh yes we do, women keep telling us how much they have to suffer, over and over again

[squidge]

Actually i find the whole giving birth thing ok - it wasnt horrendous or degrading or traumatic - it was a very positive and exciting and although it hurts and its hard work I actually enjoyed it all three times - which is perhaps fortunate really being as how im doing it again in a few months!!!!

Maybe thats why the handcuff thing is so appalling to me - many women find birth traumatic and terrible and struggle to bond with their babies and they arent in handcuffs. We are overlooking the fact too that this isnt a long term practice - it was introduced By Michael Howard when he was home secretary as part of the "get tough on criminals" policy the conservatives had. It was banned in 1996 so what on earth is it still happening for? The prison service say that it was never their own policy to handcuff women during childbirth so why is it still happening?

[Ricco]

Also i must add when youre in labour you aint gonna get very far if you tried to do a runner.What is happening to the world its insane what i read in the papers these days.

He's a man - what do you expect? He does not comprehend that a woman in labour cannot enter even the egg & spoon race.

[brandy]

there is also the issue of distress.. the mother is put under a lot more distress and that is very relative to the health of the baby..
the more stress the mother is under the more stress the baby is under..
and a babys heartrate drops very quickly.. once it starts..

[MadPict]

It's only crazy if you believe what you read in the papers....

Oh don't lock the poor wee souls up - they were obviously stealing/assaulting because they are socially disadvantaged. ......

And if you have to lock them up wrap them in cotton wool to stop them having a hard time.....

Oh stop please before I boak.....

The handcuffing of prisoners or persons arrested is done for the protection of the person/s dealing with the criminal/alleged criminal, as much for the one in restraints.

These people are in prison for a reason - if they have a history of assaulting staff or self harm (a high rate of which occurs amongst female inmates) then restraining them whilst outside the confines of the prison is for safety!
Hospital staff are assaulted on a regular basis, so if they're dealing with a person convicted of assault then controlling the person is important - Health and Safety At Work will probably come into play. They are also in an environment where very sharp instruments are possibly going to be within reach.

You don't know the full facts in these cases yet prefer to pass judgement on what you read in the tabloids.

[brandy]

there are restraints specifically made for patients whom are out of control.. that are not hand cuffs.. and was the girl out of control?
how out of control can you be when you are in labour?
i know that both times i did it.. i could barely move much less asault some one. it takes everything just to push.

[squidge]

It's only crazy if you believe what you read in the papers....

Oh don't lock the poor wee souls up - they were obviously stealing/assaulting because they are socially disadvantaged. ......

And if you have to lock them up wrap them in cotton wool to stop them having a hard time.....

Oh stop please before I boak......

Once again i ask anyone that has first hand dealings with offenders to tell me that they are all WITHOUT EXCEPTION wicked evil and greedy. There is evidence that disadvantage plays a big part in whether people offend or not. There is evidence that many women in prison are themselves victims. why is it so hard for people to accept that environment and background is the breeding ground for some anti social and criminal behaviour? Why is it hard to accept that if people are helped and supported and shown respect and humanity that they are less likely to re offend or even to offend in the first place?

The handcuffing of prisoners or persons arrested is done for the protection of the person/s dealing with the criminal/alleged criminal, as much for the one in restraints..

So in these cases why does the RCM say that handcudffing is not acceptable????

These people are in prison for a reason - if they have a history of assaulting staff or self harm (a high rate of which occurs amongst female inmates) then restraining them whilst outside the confines of the prison is for safety!.

and what if they dont? Is it acceptable to do this just in case they might? and acceptable to make them shower and use the toilet whilst handcuffed to a male guard?

You don't know the full facts in these cases yet prefer to pass judgement on what you read in the tabloids.

Neither do you know the full facts and yet you pass judgement. What makes our arguments less valid than yours or yours better informed than ours?

[MadPict]

I was not basing my post on what someone else has said or read but merely putting forwards my thoughts.
The fact that a female was cuffed to a male warder sounds highly improbable. We do have female prison officers now.

Can you produce firm evidence that this has happened? And I don't mean a story in the Daily Record....

If I had my way they would be chained together in gangs and be put to work 18 hours a day working their way through their sentence instead of sitting in their nice cells with their home comforts doing sweet nothing for their crimes.

[JimH]

I don't understand why people think she shouldn't be handcuffed. If I was a midwife who had to be present throughout the labour of some-one jailed for assault, I would want her to be handcuffed too. Why should the nurses and midwives be put at risk from this woman? Imagine had she assaulted a nurse, every-one would be shouting, why WASN'T she handcuffed.

I.m sorry to have to agree with you.
If I was the PO. I would not want to risk injury to anybody in the vacinity.
THis island of ours has gone completely crazy.
There is no discipline and no self respect - therefore no respect for others.
BUT BEWARE - it is only a sad minority spoiling it for us all.

[Rheghead]

Once again i ask anyone that has first hand dealings with offenders to tell me that they are all WITHOUT EXCEPTION wicked evil and greedy.

I can say with authority on this that they are most certainly all without exception greedy and evil.

Now if you are as greedy and evil as they yourself then you may not see that they are.

[squidge]

I can say with authority on this that they are most certainly all without exception greedy and evil.

Is that really true? Are you telling me that in all your dealings with offenders, You never came across a situation where someone got caught up in something that spiralled out of control, you never came across someone who made a stupid mistake? You never came across someone who acted out of desperation or fear? You never came across someone who felt they had nowhere else to go? You never ever spoke to a young person and thought that you might be able to help them avoid getting into trouble? You never sat and spoke to them and explained what would happen if they went along the road they were treading and saw it dawn on them that they were wrong? You never pitied anyone or felt they needed help or support to get out of the mess they were in? You never dealt with anyone who was mentally ill?

Never? Ever? That all the people you dealt with were

certainly all without exception greedy and evil

I dont believe you - i think that is either a lie or I think that you are saying that because to suggest that some of these people you dealt witht were not evil and greedy leaves room for society to have to take some responsibility for some of the crime some of the time and you arent prepared to take your share of that.

Now if you are as greedy and evil as they yourself then you may not see that they are.

I am going to ignore that wee jibe Rheghead for what it is - inflammatory and beneath you and as i just suggested you might possibly be lying i think i should just smile and let it go.

[Rheghead]

Name one offender that hasn't committed an act of greed or evil. I think you will struggle to.

[squidge]

Name one offender that hasn't committed an act of greed or evil. I think you will struggle to.

That isnt what i asked though rheghead is it? I am not asking about the action but about the person who committed the action. Even though the action maybe wicked sometimes the person isnt wicked.

There was a case where a man performed the most stupid overtaking action on the A96 and killed some people in an oncoming car. This was a terrible thing to do - a stupid wicked and thoughtless act for which he was sentenced to four years in prison. He could not live with the results of his actions and hung himself in 2004. Wicked, greedy,evil? Was this not a complete tragedy for everyone involved in this - those injured and killed? the children left behind when the man committed suicide?

What about the girl who had a baby in secret and smothered it? the baby was found in a wardrobe a month later A wicked and evil act without a doubt but was she herself wicked and evil or sad deperate and ill?

What about the 15 year old who gets convicted for criminal damage? A loner, one parent an alcoholic, one parent absent. No one cares what he gets up to - what time he comes in, school know that home is terrible but find him difficult to deal with and he hates it anyway - its pointless he isnt going to get a job anyway, what social workers?, there are no adults in his life who have a positive influence on him and he is angry. No one has ever taught him how to control the anger he feels and then one night he nicks a bottle of vodka from home gets drunk and smashes up and sets fire to his school. A wicked thing to do but is this boy wicked, evil, beyond hope?

what about the 13 year old who gets in a fight with his mates outside the chippy - a wee scuffle - this isnt a samurai sword thing, there is pushing shoving and a few punches thrown - one boy throws a punch and knocks a lads tooth out. His parents rightly report it and the boy is charged with assault. Wicked or evil? What happens if his parents punish him, the police officer who charges the boy spends a good deal of time pointing out what will happen if he gets in toruble again and he gets a caution and it never happens again?

Once again - just to remind everyone - Im not saying that no offenders are wicked or evil but that they arent all that way and to say they are is wrong. There has to be room for compassion in the justice system and there has to be a place for teaching respect.

So four wicked and evil acts maybe but wicked and evil people? I think not somehow

[Rheghead]

That isnt what i asked though rheghead is it? I am not asking about the action but about the person who committed the action.

The two are inseparable, one judges a person on the acts they make.

So four wicked and evil acts maybe but wicked and evil people?

Myra Hindley killed four times

Again, all convicted felons are greedy or evil.

[squidge]

Myra hindley was indeed wicked and evil but would you saythe four examples i gave were wicked evil people?

[Rheghead]

Myra hindley was indeed wicked and evil but would you saythe four examples i gave were wicked evil people?

That is your judgement of Myra but it is not everyone's. She was convicted of only four acts of evil but she wasn't evil all the time as she shocked a lot of people at the time and they couldn't believe it. In fact a lot of folk didn't think she was evil, just very easily led, a tragic case of love blinds, a tale that can be told over and over again. Myra only sits at just another position on the sliding scale of 'evil', we all sit somewhere else.

My point to all this is that squidge brought in a reliious term called evil, what is evil? I think we all are, there is not a day goes by when we all have evil thoughts according to scripture. But how do we define evil? Nobody knows so why did squdge introduce the term? Dunno but it all depends on the individual so it was inappropriate to introduce it.

[squidge]

i simply asked a question rheghead. As i am ambivalent about religion the religious connotations escaped me and i dont understand why the word is inappropriate. I asked whether anyone could say that offenders were without exception wicked and evil and greedy and you replied

I can say with authority on this that they are most certainly all without exception greedy and evil.

given that you think that all offenders are this way how can the word be inappropriate? I beleive Myra hindley was wicked and that she was in a position to know what she was doing. I dont actually beleive that the decision to deny her parole was made for the right reasons because it was a political decision. Had it been a judicial decision then maye we would have more idea about whether she remained wicked the whole of her life or not.
You still havent commented on the other examples i gave

[Angel Eyes]

[quote=Rheghead]I can say with authority on this that they are most certainly all without exception greedy and evil.


Correct me if I am wrong were you not on jury duty recently? If you feel this strongly about criminals why did you not push for a guilty verdict as you stated at the time you knew they were guilty.