what a crazy world we live in

[Rheghead]

Has the woman in question ever been through the experiences that you speak of?

[squidge]

the point is rheghead that we dont know - research shows that 20 percent of women in prison have been in care, and 70% havemental health problems - thats the prison inspectorates figures. To label all theives as wicked and selfish and have no compassion ignores the facts that many of them arent. there but for the grace of god and all that jazz.

Amark of a society is the way that it deal with its vulnerable and criminal and at 18 pregnant and scared and alone - being handcuffed to a male prison warder whilst giving birth, showering and using hte toilet is inhumne and totally out of proportion

[connieb19]

Squidge, I was brought up being told that if I ever stole my Dad would put my hands in the fire. I have never stolen so I do not need you to feel sorry for me because I am not tolerant of thieves. I notice you didn't mention people stealing for greed on your list. You may think it is ok to blame everything except the criminal but I don't. I have never stolen but I have had things stolen from me so I stand by everything I have said.

[angela5]

Squidge, I was brought up being told that if I ever stole my Dad would put my hands in the fire. I have never stolen so I do not need you to feel sorry for me because I am not tolerant of thieves. I notice you didn't mention people stealing for greed on your list. You may think it is ok to blame everything except the criminal but I don't. I have never stolen but I have had things stolen from me so I stand by everything I have said.

Not even from the pic 'n' mix, corner shop or a pint of milk from someones door, Flowers from the riverside, a friends school book.?
Are you really saying you have'nt pinched a thing, gosh your one in a million.

[squidge]

I didnt mention greed per se connie but i did say wicked and selfish - of COURSE people steal for greed but that isnt it all. Take the woman who steals two hundred and fifty thousand pounds from her employer and buys a big house and a fancy car and goes off on holidays all the time and compare it with the girl who lives in the shed? You think they are both the same? I wasnt saying that there is never a reason to blame the criminal just that there are other issues to take into account sometimes and ignoring those issues means that we never actually tackle the problems and prevent reoffending or deal with those who are vulnerable to offending in the first place.

[connieb19]

Not even from the pic 'n' mix, corner shop or a pint of milk from someones door, Flowers from the riverside, a friends school book.?
Are you really saying you have'nt pinched a thing, gosh your one in a million.

How nice for the lovely little criminals that there are people like yourself and squide to sympathise with them. Gosh, lets all give them a big hug and tell them how they arent to blame, It's the society they've been brought up in. Where's your sympathy for the victims of the crimes?

[connieb19]

I didnt mention greed per se connie but i did say wicked and selfish - of COURSE people steal for greed but that isnt it all. Take the woman who steals two hundred and fifty thousand pounds from her employer and buys a big house and a fancy car and goes off on holidays all the time and compare it with the girl who lives in the shed? You think they are both the same? I wasnt saying that there is never a reason to blame the criminal just that there are other issues to take into account sometimes and ignoring those issues means that we never actually tackle the problems and prevent reoffending or deal with those who are vulnerable to offending in the first place.

So what would you do with the girl who steals two hundred and fifty thousand pounds from her employer. If she says she was brought up in a shed, would that be ok then?

[squidge]

no connie its never all right - nowhere did i say they should get away with it. But there is a need for compassion and humanity in how we deal with people wherever we can and we should note that we are very lucky if we can be smug in our own righteousness and not give one iota about anyone else. As a society we should see our collective responsibility for that and often we dont.

[angela5]

How nice for the lovely little criminals that there are people like yourself and squide to sympathise with them. Gosh, lets all give them a big hug and tell them how they arent to blame, It's the society they've been brought up in. Where's your sympathy for the victims of the crimes?

I sympathise with these young girls that are put through an ordeal such as being handcuffed during labour. I'm not on there side with regards to their stealing.
I do have sympathy for victims of crime, i have not said that i don't.

My point is these girls should not be handcuffed during labour, visiting the toilet or showering this is degrading wether or not they stole a pint of milk from the corner shop, or a top from marks and spencers.
Let's all give them a big hug indeed connie, for their ordeal during labour, not for commiting a crime.

[connieb19]

I'll keep my hugs and sympathies for the victims if thats ok, or have you forgotten about them? And, I hardly imagine she's been locked up for stealing a pint of milk from a doorstep.

[mccaugm]

I am sure that if the doctors had any objection then she would have had the handcuffs taken off. I personally think it was appropriate that she was handcuffed throghout the procedure. Afteralll, as any woman says when they have a baby, it's not a holiday. Being handcuffed will be a poignant reminder to her when she brings her kid up and make her to think about her crimes. Also, if the guard thought there was no security concerns then I think he/she might have kept them off but he didn't. I think the consequence for him/her, the home secretary, the hospital and the police would have been much worse if she had of escaped aided by others on the outside and left with a baby. I can imagine the headlines now and the embarrassment for the Government.

It is easy for anybody who doesn't know the full facts to criticise this.

I do not care what crime she commited, being handcuffed in labour is horrendous. Believe me for her to try and run would be damn near impossible. Its not the childs fault her mother made mistakes...

[squidge]

I'll keep my hugs and sympathies for the victims if thats ok, or have you forgotten about them?

Sympathy for the victim and compassion for the criminal are not mutually exclusive - you dont have to ignore one to have the other. You can have both. Do you think I have never been the victim of a crime? I grew up around Manchester i have been assaulted, mugged and burgled, had my car stolen several times, I have had money stolen, worked in a store that had terrible trouble with shoplifting, had my bag snatched and dealt with a vast array of people fiddling their benefits. I am still able to have some compassion and see the bigger picture in all this.

If we shackle teenage pregnant girls to male guards whilst they give birth, force them to be shackled whilst they shower and go to the toilet and remain unmoved by it what sort of people are we? How do we expect that young women will go on to be good mums and come out of prison able to live a better life when we treat them this way? How do we expect that they will learn to respect others and accept responsibility for thier own behaviour and teach their children to respect and trust authority when we think that this is an acceptable way to deal with them? If you think that it is then you should look at the statistics about re offending and reconsider.

[sassylass]

It does seem barbaric to treat anyone this way. However, we don't know all the facts, do we?

Even if the girl was jailed for "only" theft, quite possibly there were extenuating circumstances which necessitated total control.

We cannot pass judgement on either side because we just don't know all the details.

[Rheghead]

Its not the childs fault her mother made mistakes...

How is the kid being punished?

[brandy]

what we have to remember guys is that nothing is black and white.. and that there are many shades of gray.
connie hun i understand that criminals have to be punished.. but at the same time if you stay so rigid you are going to break..
what about all the people in prison who are innocent.. and are victims of circumstance? do they deserve what they get?
there are loads of peeps who have served years and years of their lives for crimes they never commited.. and are just now being released because new evidence via dna is coming. out.
where is the justice for them?
also the punishment should fit the crime.. not every crime is the same.
there is always extinuating circumstances.
yes we have hardened criminals ..and the ones that just get out of jail to commit a crime again. and i agree they deserve everything they get.
however human compassion is a great thing and its what keeps us as a race together.
this story made me think of when slavery was the thing back home.
people were property not human beings with thoughts or feelings..
the same with endentured servants..
most endentured servants were scottish and sent to the penal colonies because of petty theft.. ie stealing bread .. or hunting on the kings land to feed their starving families..
and for these crimes they were tortured, raped and put in to virtual slavery.. do you think that is appropriate?

honestly.. i hope the girls sues the crud out of the system for what they did to her. seems the only way to stop it from happening is to hit their pocketbook.

[brandy]

becasue rheg..
it is very important to have bonding with mother and child directly after birth..

[Rheghead]

the point is rheghead that we dont know - research shows that 20 percent of women in prison have been in care, and 70% havemental health problems - thats the prison inspectorates figures. To label all theives as wicked and selfish and have no compassion ignores the facts that many of them arent. there but for the grace of god and all that jazz.

Amark of a society is the way that it deal with its vulnerable and criminal and at 18 pregnant and scared and alone - being handcuffed to a male prison warder whilst giving birth, showering and using hte toilet is inhumne and totally out of proportion

Statistics and lies I hear folk cry, the fact is, these cons can't behave themselves and they require higher walls and stronger bars on the windows. After half a century of namby pamby rehabilitation we still have a soaring crime rate and my gut feeling is that if we can degrade these people so much then they might just get the message that society wants to get real with them.

That woman was in custody and she has no privacy and if that extends to her giving birth then so be it. The kid isn't being harmed by it and neither is she. Crikey, hospital staff used to tie women down whilst giving birth at one time so what is the difference?

A mark of society is that if we go too namby pamby on felons then it will cave in on itself.

I bet your bottom dollar that the first time she had to obey a rule since leaving school was when she got taken to prison yet most of us have too obey rules all our lives.

It is just a handcuff at the end of the day!!

[Rheghead]

becasue rheg..
it is very important to have bonding with mother and child directly after birth..

Well the fact of the case might be that the kid was gonna be taken off her so what difference will it make?

We don't know the full facts, so how can we judge one way or the other?

[brandy]

what makes you think the child is going to be taken off her?
you do not automatically loose your child because you are in jail.
also as you have never given birth.. you can have no idea of how horrendous and traumatic an experiance it is.

[Rheghead]

what makes you think the child is going to be taken off her?
you do not automatically loose your child because you are in jail.
also as you have never given birth.. you can have no idea of how horrendous and traumatic an experiance it is.

Nothing makes me think that the kid was gonna be taken off her but if it was then my point is, 'what would handcuffing the mother harm the mother/baby relationship if she wasn't gonna be the mother?'

Yes, I have never given birth but I have a fairly vivid imagination and still no matter how traumatic it is, it shouldn't have any bearing on the security and medical decisions that had to be made.

I actually think she could walk away from this in time and it will have shocked her into shape so she can take her place in society for her good and her baby's welfare. She will be a better person for it as well.