Are British Intelligence Stupid?

[Anfield]

This thread isn't about me, it isn't about what I would do.

How come whenever I raise important issues about world events the org bullies immediately try to turn the thread around and talk about me instead?

Shows how poor their arguments are.

[bekisman]

Is this one of the forms of tortures condoned by USA/UK governments, or have you been watching too much TV

Sound of bugle? He CAN look after himself you know

[The Drunken Duck]

I said anyone who makes personal attacks against me instead of discussing the issues is a bully.

Do you understand? Why is it not possible to discuss important issues on this forum without the same people coming in making their personal remarks about me every time? Can you not conceive that someone can be opposed to torture because it is evil not because they don't like Americans and are anti Semitic? Why do you always try to put the blame on me? Why do you always try and turn the discussion round to be about me? Why is your answer to everything to accuse me of being racist?

Your one and only contribution to this discussion has been a personal attack against me. You are deliberately trying to disrupt the thread.

In what way was Golach's comment a "personal attack" Fred ??, he gave an opinion and nothing more.

You are being a bit of a hypocrite considering you quite happily go around calling the views of people who have more information than you on certain issues "bovine excrement" and belittling anyones view which doesnt correspond to your own. Then, when you get the same back you act like a petulant little child who decides that you are being bullied because people dare to disagree or challenge you.

Curious though. If you are so concerned about "torture" etc etc how come you refused to answer my very polite PM about how you feel about the behaviour of the Iraqi's in Kuwait in 1990 when they invaded a soveriegn nation, raped, murdered, tortured and looted and then set fire to the natural resources of the area when they left. I only ask as you only seem to be interested in "torture" issues when it gives you a chance to rant against the society you live in from a paranoid and shockingly naive closed mind.

I think you are an intelligent guy Fred and have given you rep in my short time here for the points you make I agree with, I will continue to do so in the future. But on the Iraq/Torture/Forces are all baby killer garbage you devote most of your time to you are being a boring Troll in my view.

[bekisman]

What would you do? Would you take someone's 5 year old daughter and plunge their hands and feet into molten lead in front of them until they told you what you wanted to hear? - [5 year old daughter'? nah this is a big nasty chap laughing in your face' Now none of those who have been tortured by America [ nope this is not America, it's a remote spot in Caithness] have had anyone in a sealed room, none have actually been found guilty of any crime so far so get real, stop trying to justify the unjustifiable with the ridiculous. This isn't a democracy we live in any more, it's a Murdocracy, the people can be programmed to think what the government wants them to think. Brainwashed to accept the unacceptable.

Please, Please Fred this NOT about you, it's a 'get real' general question. OK, as you won't can't answer, to make it easier what would be your thoughts on these; "But the killer - serving his life sentence at HMP Garth in Leyland, Lancs - has refused to say where he buried Helen" and "A wealthy landowner was jailed for life today for murdering his estranged wife — but still refuses to reveal where he hid her body" and "Brady moors killer refuses to say where he buried Keith Bennett" - these people are standing in front of you; taunting. . I hasten to add these are actual facts, not based in the USA.
Me? ref the original I would do anything to get them to reveal the whereabouts of my loved one who will die if I do not 'help' this mocking person to reveal.

[fred]

Please, Please Fred this NOT about you, it's a 'get real' general question. OK, as you won't can't answer, to make it easier what would be your thoughts on these; "But the killer - serving his life sentence at HMP Garth in Leyland, Lancs - has refused to say where he buried Helen" and "A wealthy landowner was jailed for life today for murdering his estranged wife — but still refuses to reveal where he hid her body" and "Brady moors killer refuses to say where he buried Keith Bennett" - these people are standing in front of you; taunting. . I hasten to add these are actual facts, not based in the USA.
Me? ref the original I would do anything to get them to reveal the whereabouts of my loved one who will die if I do not 'help' this mocking person to reveal.

To use torture on those people would not only be illegal but immoral and make us worse that they are.

This does not alter the fact that the vast majority of those tortured by the American government have never been charged with any crime. Many have been released without charge. These are innocent people being subjected to the horrors of hell not your hypothetical kidnappers.

Abu Ghraib happened because the commanders there had written authorisation from Rumsfeld himself authorising the use of "enhanced interrogation methods" or torture as we call it in the rest of the world. Once you use your hypothetical scenarios to justify the unjustifiable the genie is out of the bottle and there is no way to control it. You have given the sadists the green light.

[fred]

Could I please ask that people do not mess with text attributed to me and only put in the attributions box text that I have typed.

You may think it makes sense but years from now someone could well be searching the archives for anything they can use against me (it happens) and it might not make sense to them.

[fred]

In what way was Golach's comment a "personal attack" Fred ??, he gave an opinion and nothing more.

You are being a bit of a hypocrite considering you quite happily go around calling the views of people who have more information than you on certain issues "bovine excrement" and belittling anyones view which doesnt correspond to your own. Then, when you get the same back you act like a petulant little child who decides that you are being bullied because people dare to disagree or challenge you.

Curious though. If you are so concerned about "torture" etc etc how come you refused to answer my very polite PM about how you feel about the behaviour of the Iraqi's in Kuwait in 1990 when they invaded a soveriegn nation, raped, murdered, tortured and looted and then set fire to the natural resources of the area when they left. I only ask as you only seem to be interested in "torture" issues when it gives you a chance to rant against the society you live in from a paranoid and shockingly naive closed mind.

I think you are an intelligent guy Fred and have given you rep in my short time here for the points you make I agree with, I will continue to do so in the future. But on the Iraq/Torture/Forces are all baby killer garbage you devote most of your time to you are being a boring Troll in my view.

Post #105 on the birth defects thread might answer your question.

[Anfield]

Sound of bugle? He CAN look after himself you know

Mission Accomplished, Agent Bekiman return to base asap.
Once again, you have defeated a right wing rant with your use of a post, which confirms that when losing an argument, personalise the issue.
Well done
We shall contact you again for next assignment

[northener]

So are you saying that if someone you loved needed an organ transplant but was a rare blood group you would be justified in murdering someone you didn't like so an organ would become available?

The ends never justify the means. Especially when your fictitious scenario is used to justify the torture of innocent people.

A fine avoidance of my question Fred. I salute you.

Your first paragraph has no connection with my question whatsoever, as well you know.

The secong paragraph is misleading, I am justifying nothing.

What I am doing is trying to open up the Torture debate into seeing if there would ever be any justification for extracting information through force.
My point being that if those who are close to you personally were in some imminent life-threatening danger, would you sanction the level of torture meted out at Guantanamo Bay to extract the information necessary to keep your own loved ones alive? Or would you stand by your principles and watch people die?

I know I'd be hard pushed to maintain my attitude towards torture in that situation.....

[Anfield]

I think the answer is that Afghanis/Iraqis and other people, have given their lives in defending their countries against foreign aggressors.

[The Drunken Duck]

Post #105 on the birth defects thread might answer your question.

Pathetic Cop Out.

My PM asking for your view was sent BEFORE that post asking you to ignore me. Obviously that question is uncomfortable for you as it points out an uncomfortable truth of those you see as beyond reproach.

I now realise why so many ignore you. You arent interested in debate or discussion or broadening your horizons on issues, you are just an Internet Attention Addict rattling away on one subject.

[northener]

I think the answer is that Afghanis/Iraqis and other people, have given their lives in defending their countries against foreign aggressors.

Enlighten me, how does that relate to the States' knowledge (or not) of torture, the use of torture and the question regarding whether torture would ever be justified?

[Anfield]

Enlighten me, how does that relate to the States' knowledge (or not) of torture, the use of torture and the question regarding whether torture would ever be justified?

Your question was a hypothetical one about a factual issue. Torture should never ever be condoned, irrespective of who carries it out.

Sticking to factual issues there is documented proof that America has used methods of torture to obtain "information".
What puzzles me about this "information" is that they are still no nearer finding Bin Laden than they were 9 years ago.

If he is, the mastermind behind all the supposed terroist attacks in the world, why do they not use 100% of their, and other countries intelligence resources to locate him, instead of of using indiscrimate carpet bombing of Afghanistan in the hope that they may blow up a cave containing him.

[John Little]

It is possible not to condone something yet recognise that it goes on

It is also possible to recognise that in our world nasty things are sometimes necessary if regrettable

What we aspire to is not the same as what we have.

Aragorn in Lord of the Rings was bitter about being looked down on by Barliman Butterbur, landlord of the Prancing Pony. He said that there were things not a day's jorney from his inn that would freeze his blood and destroy his world if it were not for those who guarded him without his knowing.

People guard our world.
I do not condone what they do.
But I do not condemn what they do.

Further I would say that the concept of necessary evil is worthy of consideration. We do not live in Utopia, and, short of that ideal we have to deal with what is real and what is desirable.

But without them I do not think our world would stand.

I eat meat.
I do not care to look in the abbatoirs- and I do not condemn the butchers.

[northener]

Your question was a hypothetical one about a factual issue. Torture should never ever be condoned, irrespective of who carries it out.

Avoidance, pure and simple. It's all very well finger wagging and having fine ideals, but as soon as this issue is brought down from a remote concept to a personal level there is invariably a deathly silence on this one.

I've already stated that i do not agree with torture.

And, more to the point, I have stated in this thread, that if my own personal loved ones were in an imminent life threatening situation and I knew someone was holding back on information that could save them, my moral standards would be sorely tried.

I've nailed my colours firmly to the mast on this one, would you care to do the same - or shall I take avoidance as an admission that you would do the same?

Over to you on that one.......

Sticking to factual issues there is documented proof that America has used methods of torture to obtain "information".
What puzzles me about this "information" is that they are still no nearer finding Bin Laden than they were 9 years ago.

If he is, the mastermind behind all the supposed terroist attacks in the world, why do they not use 100% of their, and other countries intelligence resources to locate him, instead of of using indiscrimate carpet bombing of Afghanistan in the hope that they may blow up a cave containing him.

Nicely brought round to Afghanistan...

If you are that ignorant that you believe all this interrogation is purely to 'find' Bin Laden then you are showing an absolute lack of knowledge regarding Intelligence and it's uses. No point in duiscussing further, methinks.

Now, 'sticking to torture issues', what's your answer to my question?

[bekisman]

Mission Accomplished, Agent Bekiman return to base asap.
Once again, you have defeated a right wing rant with your use of a post, which confirms that when losing an argument, personalise the issue.
Well done
We shall contact you again for next assignment

My, my we are funny today, right wing rant? by jove you've certainly led a sheltered life if you think that was a rant.. and no, it's not 'personal' - Come on, lighten up old chap.
Sorry for delay in replying, but just returned from jaunt out west to see a Crofter

[Anfield]

Where I was brought up we used to have a bus service numbered 61.
The start and finish destinations were about 2 miles from each other but it used to "go all around the houses" to get there, a bit like your post.

(1) "..brought down from a remote concept to a personal level.."

How do you answer a question which is straight from the plot of a TV program/film.
My answer to any question raised is that I would do what I believe is right by my own beliefs, just as i would expect my family and friends to do.

(2) "..If you are that ignorant that you believe all this interrogation is purely to 'find' Bin Laden then you are showing an absolute lack of knowledge regarding Intelligence and it's uses.."

Read my reply above, carefully. I did not state that they are

[northener]

Thankyou, Anfield.

I think I've proved my point quite nicely.

Goodbye.

[Boozeburglar]

Aragorn in Lord of the Rings was bitter about being looked down on by Barliman Butterbur, landlord of the Prancing Pony. He said that there were things not a day's jorney from his inn that would freeze his blood and destroy his world if it were not for those who guarded him without his knowing.

Lol.

Tolkein makes it all make sense as usual.

[Anfield]

My point being that if those who are close to you personally were in some imminent life-threatening danger, would you sanction the level of torture meted out at Guantanamo Bay to extract the information necessary to keep your own loved ones alive? Or would you stand by your principles and watch people die?

.

My answer to your question was "..that I would do what I believe is right by my own beliefs, just as i would expect my family and friends to do.."

Please clarify how you reckon that: "I think I've proved my point quite nicely"