Nato strike kills a number of Afghanistan civilians

[bekisman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Benning

tut tut, wiki again?

[fred]

tut tut, wiki again?

What is it with you?

If I criticise American foreign policy I must hate Americans, if I criticise Israeli war crimes then I must be anti Semitic, if I post a link to press.tv press.tv is biassed and if i post a link to wikipedia wikipedia must be ridiculed.

I don't suppose you've considered the possibility that you might just be wrong?

[golach]

I don't suppose you've considered the possibility that you might just be wrong?

Could you possibly be the one who is wrong????

[fred]

Could you possibly be the one who is wrong????

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...spirators.html

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/47/480.html

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/Scho...ds-Protest.htm

See, all the information in the wikipedia quote is easily verifiable.

The only reason people like berkisman try to ridicule it is because it makes it too easy for people to show they're talking out of their backsides.

[golach]

The only reason people like berkisman try to ridicule it is because it makes it too easy for people to show they're talking out of their backsides.

I must be a convert of bekisman, as I think you are the one who has a bad attack of flatulence

[Stavro]

I must be a convert of bekisman, as I think you are the one who has a bad attack of flatulence

You clearly think your comment funny, golach, but there is really no point in coming in to a serious debate like this unless you have a point worth making. Your silly insults do nothing except keep yourself amused.

If you think that Fred (or anyone else, but Fred certainly seems to be the flavour of the month amongst some that seem to want to go around in the dark) is wrong about something, then make your point with your reasoning.

[ducati]

Yes, and we'll make them grow opium poppies again, such that our democracy (the envy of the world) can keep the hospitals and morgues full of addicts.

And you talk about reason??

Lets hear you evidence for that classic

[fred]

If you think that Fred (or anyone else, but Fred certainly seems to be the flavour of the month amongst some that seem to want to go around in the dark) is wrong about something, then make your point with your reasoning.

They can't, they have no reasoning, all they have is their faith, their belief that we are good and they are evil, whoever tey happen to be at the time.

Let's take a look at their reasons for bringing death and destruction to Afghanistan with their illegal war, let's look at their reasons for killing women, children and babies.

"We're in Afghanistan to ensure that it cannot once again be a sanctuary for the kind of attacks that were carried out on 9/11,"

Well the fact is that none of the 9/11 hijackers were Afghani, the fact is they didn't learn how to fly a plane in Afghanistan but the facts contradict their beliefs so the facts must be wrong.

Meanwhile those who lost family and loved ones on 9/11 seek justice but they are denied it.

Documents gathered by lawyers for the families of Sept. 11 victims provide new evidence of extensive financial support for Al Qaeda and other extremist groups by members of the Saudi royal family, but the material may never find its way into court because of legal and diplomatic obstacles.

The fact is 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, the fact is the families of 9/11 victims claimed to have documented evidence that the hijackers were financed by Saudi Arabia but they have been blocked from taking those implicated to court.

[ducati]

They can't, they have no reasoning, all they have is their faith, their belief that we are good and they are evil, whoever tey happen to be at the time.

Let's take a look at their reasons for bringing death and destruction to Afghanistan with their illegal war, let's look at their reasons for killing women, children and babies.



Well the fact is that none of the 9/11 hijackers were Afghani, the fact is they didn't learn how to fly a plane in Afghanistan but the facts contradict their beliefs so the facts must be wrong.

Meanwhile those who lost family and loved ones on 9/11 seek justice but they are denied it.



The fact is 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, the fact is the families of 9/11 victims claimed to have documented evidence that the hijackers were financed by Saudi Arabia but they have been blocked from taking those implicated to court.

I don't recall anyone accusing the Afghans of terrorism. The Taliban were harbouring AlQeda and refused to stop when asked. The head of Alqueda is a Saudi, everyone knows that.

From a previous thread you don't believe any terrorists were involved in 9/11. Make your mind up.

[golach]

, but there is really no point in coming in to a serious debate like this unless you have a point worth making. Your silly insults do nothing except keep yourself amused.

You call this a serious debate? We long term Orgers have had this many times in the past by fred, his continual girnan about the American government and its failings, is old news, and in my eyes are no longer serious. But you are entitled to your opinion, as I am, keep typing stavro, you make my day more amusing with every rant you post

[bekisman]

The only reason people like berkisman try to ridicule it is because it makes it too easy for people to show they're talking out of their backsides.

"what is it with me"? - Well, been around a bit, seen a bit, done a bit.
Of course I have no objection whatsoever to anyone having an opinion - that really goes without saying.

But I do find it rather tiresome when you, without an iota of experience, relying on Wiki and Google to not only give your opinion generated by these sites - which I hasten to add, is perfectly normal, but to ram down our throats your opinions, which are elucidated to as 'facts'.

I (for example) am a First Aid Instructor but I would not in any way attempt to denigrate a qualified Doctor - I just don't have the experience and certainly not the gall to force my ideas down his throat and tell him he's talking out of his backside.

To be a world authority on Iran Iraq - indeed anything, you need a certain amount of experience coupled with empathy and a general balanced view to accept that others may differ in their outlook. Yes I may well be wrong, I can admit that.

There are injustices throughout the world, I've seen them, had personal experience of them - that's were I had my formative years. I have no idea what your personal opinions are on our British Forces, but I hope that my sons who served in Bosnia, Croatia, Iraq have helped rebuild that country - as with the Americans in post-war Germany and Japan.

I know you of old Fred, a previous poster who was actually serving in Iraq and thus 'on the ground' was given the retort by you of: "Ah you are in Iraq, that explains why you are in denial."

You are not going to persuade anyone on this forum to change their ideas, no matter how many times wiki is invoked, no matter how many times you post, no matter how forcefully you put your opinions.

This is just a very minor website, where folks exchange ideas, ramming it down peoples throats will make no difference - or don't you know this?

And don't think I missed your Freudian Slip of misspelling 'Berkisman' (shall we call this juvenile?)

This thread was about the accidental death of civilians - terrible, but '' happens.

You seem to be under the illusion that I give you abuse.. Please forgive me Fred, but one would presume by your previous utterances the following belies the point:

"Which just proves the point, the people who have been there are often the people who know least."
"You just don't listen do you?"
"Oh I enjoy intelligent debate, if I can find someone intelligent to debate with".
"Now have you got enough intelligence to open your eyes and see the world as it really is"
"You seem to be suffering from delusions of grandeur."
"Grow up."
"I don't debate with people who send me threatening and abusive PMs."
"If you can't behave in a civilised manner without becoming abusive I reserve the right not to debate with you."
"I don't take orders from you either."
"Strange how people who can't handle the truth revert to a mental age of twelve."
"I look forward to the trial of Saddam with great interest, I have a feeling if the truth is allowed to be let out people will realise things aren't just as black and white as they have been led to believe"
"Haven't you noticed yet that the news backs up what I say after I've said it"
"How many millions are their lies, greed and lust for power going to kill before the world wakes up."
"Why does nobody care? Why isn't everyone angry?"
"The we is the people of Britain, wasn't that obvious? I'll try and use shorter words for you."

[Anfield]

Bekisman. You state "..but I hope that my sons who served in Bosnia, Croatia, Iraq have helped rebuild that country.."
just exactly who rebuilt Iraq, and how are the Iraqi's paying for this "rebuild" which incidentally, was mainly caused by Allied bombing.

My original post thread was dismay at 33 civillians killed by gung ho allied troops. Around the same number are killed in Iraq each day, not all by allies, but these deaths do not even merit a news item anymore

[golach]

My original post thread was dismay at 33 civillians killed by gung ho UN troops. Around the same number are killed in Iraq each day, not all by UN, but these deaths do not even merit a news item anymore

The Allied troops are NATO troops, not UN troops, just a mute point.

[bekisman]

Bekisman. You state "..but I hope that my sons who served in Bosnia, Croatia, Iraq have helped rebuild that country.."
just exactly who rebuilt Iraq, and how are the Iraqi's paying for this "rebuild" which incidentally, was mainly caused by Allied bombing.

My original post thread was dismay at 33 civillians killed by gung ho allied troops. Around the same number are killed in Iraq each day, not all by allies, but these deaths do not even merit a news item anymore

Might be easier if you put in 'rebuilding Iraq' into any search engine - there's a LOT of pages on this. My son is a Royal Engineer, building schools, hospitals and roads there, did/doing the same in Bosnia, Croatia - surely you are aware of this..

'...major benchmark for international assistance was the Madrid Conference on Reconstruction held in Spain October 23-24, 2003 and attended by representatives from over 25 nations. Funds assembled at this conference and from other sources have been administered by the UN and the World Bank. This assistance has primarily funded large-scale projects..' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_of_Iraq (Wiki so must be true) + In May 2003, following the invasion of Iraq in March of that year, the Central Bank of Iraq-Development Fund for Iraq (DFI) account was created at the U.S.Federal Reserve Bank of New york at the request of the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) Administrator' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_Fund_for_Iraq

Germany after the war? look up 'Marshall Plan' - oh yes, forgot, we bombed that too

What a pathetic insult; 'Gung ho UN Troops' - by your statement you must really believe these forces don't give a toss, just go around dropping bombs for the fun of it. I can tell that you have a very closeted view of things on the ground and certainly a disrespect for the professionalism of the Armed Forces - I wonder why. No, don't tell me, I've guessed..

Your dismay belittles the insult you have given these UN troops, incidentally thought it was 27 dead not 33?

Of course when Saddam was putting his own folks through mincing machines and gassing Kurds, you were there, fighting for their corner?. Nah, of course not.

[The Drunken Duck]

Pray tell me what happened to that post?? Deleted?? By whom. It was quite informative

It was my post and I deleted it mate, gave away too much personal information and in hindsight a little too much inside gen on the nature of Close Air Support. I quoted safety distances and operating procedures and the like, showed to a still serving ex colleague who is a current FAC and from what he advised me to delete from it it wasnt really informative anymore. Plus no one seemed to have noticed, everyone was to busy arguing !! Although for those that read it I hope it gave a good insight into the nature of the buisness. That said I have been dismayed at the naive attitudes of some people here towards Close Air Support, ROE and Air Warfare in general. There are terms like strategic bombing being thrown about obviously without any knowledge of what it actually is. Like I said in the now deleted post I did serve in light blue, I was also employed in a role that entailed planning for both British and American aircraft types so I have seen things from boths sides of the coin. And from my experience Gung ho is not an option and is stamped out early in the training process if it appears. We went to massive lengths to avoid bombing civvies. The paperwork is a nightmare for a start.

I learnt long ago there are those just not willing to listen to what actually goes on, and class all of my former colleagues in uniform as "gung ho" "murderers" and the like and there just isnt any talking to them. In fact I encountered one such type in Wick about twelve years ago after I came back from serving in Kuwait where I was planning raids into Iraq and who called me a baby killer, murderer etc etc and wanted to know why I did it. The real irony was that I was working in a Search and Rescue role (Kuwait was a detachment for me) at the time and not a week before had run a job entailing a Casevac from Thurso using a Lossie chopper but I didnt tell her that. I said nothing. No point. She was going to think what she wanted about me anyway no matter what I said. And these points of view are just as valid as any other at the end of the day. They are just wrong in my view. I only wish that these people were as vocal in the defence of the Kuwaiti's tortured by Iraqi's, our Aircrew tortured in 90/91 by Iraqi's, our guys killed and firebombed by Iraqi civilians who chose this way of showing their gratitude of being free of Saddam. But they wont. Too busy feeling clever and smart about something they actually know zip about. Bekisman I see your view, where your coming from and I agree with you but I just dont bother anymore.

Fred is quite funny though. Is he for real ??

My personal opinion is that Afghanistan is going to end in a stalemate. As the Taliban say "You have the watches but we have the time", they dont need to win they just need us to lose. The longer they string it out and the more casualties they inflict then public opinion will start to waver. It already is. And you cant fight an enemy who is a combantant one minute and a non combatant the next by simply dropping a rifle, not with the current ROE from what I am told. The Afghan people are not helping though as they are playing both sides, its THEIR country but they dont seem to want to firmly take a side. The Taliban terrorise them, we kick them out of the area but dont have the troops to hold the ground. The Taliban come back put a gun to the head of the village elder and tells him not to co-operate with us. Then we come back, kick the Taliban out damage the fields in the process (and thus their livelihood) and promise the earth in reconstruction which we then cant carry out because we dont hold the ground through lack of boots on the ground. Its a vicious circle. Add in Pakistan and their reluctance to take on the Taliban in their country given the nature of their political/relgious system and its a nightmare we should get out of or fund the Operation properly. You cant fight a War on a peacetime budget.

Sorry for being so serious but I dont do arguing on the Internet.

[Anfield]

Bekisman, Despite your outrage, you failed to answer question of how is Iraqi "rebuilding" being funded.
As you use search engines for a lot of your answers, you may find the answer amongst them. Oil, i.e. Iraq is paying for the damage done by, and I will repeat the phrase, gung ho allied bombing, by the sale of its oil.

You can even attend a conference to ensure that you get a slice of the pie:
http://www.ifpjordan.com/exhibition_overview.php?id=104


So whilst the Royal Engineers make token efforts to justify why they are still there, the big (re)construction projects are carried out by Western construction companies.

The military and the monetary, always present in any recent US led war

You take umbrage at my use of the term "gung ho" yet, according to the military we have weapons which have pin point accuracy, why then is there so much carnage.

[bekisman]

Bekisman, Despite your outrage, you failed to answer question of how is Iraqi "rebuilding" being funded.
As you use search engines for a lot of your answers, you may find the answer amongst them. Oil, i.e. Iraq is paying for the damage done by, and I will repeat the phrase, gung ho allied bombing, by the sale of its oil.
You can even attend a conference to ensure that you get a slice of the pie:http://www.ifpjordan.com/exhibition_overview.php?id=104
So whilst the Royal Engineers make token efforts to justify why they are still there, the big (re)construction projects are carried out by Western construction companies.
The military and the monetary, always present in any recent US led war
You take umbrage at my use of the term "gung ho" yet, according to the military we have weapons which have pin point accuracy, why then is there so much carnage.

'Outrage'? don't get so excited - I said 'pathetic' - sees I was right there.
It will take more than you to 'outrage' me my little friend..

OK we all know where Anfield stands; All coalition troops in Iraq are gung ho..

Obviously you are unaware that even 'pin-point' weapons are not 100% - sems rather strange considering the amount of time you must spend perusing the coverage of Iraq/Iran/East Cheam.

Even a moron would know that any country - such as one ravaged by Saddam - must help with rebuilding costs. That's quite normal you know (or maybe you did not)..

And anyway what's this "and the sale of their oil" - I thought the general concensus was the yanks were going to nick it all?- seems not

[bekisman]

a little too much inside gen on the nature of Close Air Support. I quoted safety distances and operating procedures and the like, showed to a still serving ex colleague who is a current FAC and from what he advised me to delete from it it wasnt really informative anymore.
Although for those that read it I hope it gave a good insight into the nature of the buisness.
That said I have been dismayed at the naive attitudes of some people here towards Close Air Support, ROE and Air Warfare in general. There are terms like strategic bombing being thrown about obviously without any knowledge of what it actually is.
And from my experience Gung ho is not an option and is stamped out early in the training process if it appears. We went to massive lengths to avoid bombing civvies.

I learnt long ago there are those just not willing to listen to what actually goes on, and class all of my former colleagues in uniform as "gung ho" "murderers" and the like and there just isnt any talking to them. In fact I encountered one such type in Wick about twelve years ago after I came back from serving in Kuwait where I was planning raids into Iraq and who called me a baby killer, murderer etc etc and wanted to know why I did it.

The real irony was that I was working in a Search and Rescue role (Kuwait was a detachment for me) at the time and not a week before had run a job entailing a Casevac from Thurso using a Lossie chopper but I didnt tell her that. I said nothing. No point.
I only wish that these people were as vocal in the defence of the Kuwaiti's tortured by Iraqi's, our Aircrew tortured in 90/91 by Iraqi's, our guys killed and firebombed by Iraqi civilians who chose this way of showing their gratitude of being free of Saddam. But they wont. Too busy feeling clever and smart about something they actually know zip about.

Fred is quite funny though. Is he for real ??

Very Very well written and informative AND it's from the horses mouth!

[The Drunken Duck]

You take umbrage at my use of the term "gung ho" yet, according to the military we have weapons which have pin point accuracy, why then is there so much carnage.

Is there "much carnage" ??, based on your previous claims I take your comments with a truckload of salt.

And its not just Bekisman who takes umbrage at your gung ho claim. With respect, You thought it was a UN operation which says a lot about your knowledge of the subject. You seem to have a political corner to fight so perhaps going out to Iraq to see for yourself might be an option. Wouldn't advise it though, Iraqi civilians have killed aid workers out there. You could end up like that or in a cheap video of a beheading being sold in a scummy bazaar. Ken Bigley did. Nice folks the Iraqi's, you should see what they did to Iranian POW's during the eight year war.

If you looked at the recent incident it was down to bad intelligence and nothing more. The munition (to tragic effect) worked fine. If you look at the amount of munitions dropped and the percentage that cause civilian casualties it is a very very small amount. There are weapons like JDAM which are GPS encoded and will fly to a set set of co-ords on release but they are only as good as the information received and the inputting of that info by a human. Many weapons are laser delivered and lots of factors can affect their emplyment such as air humidity, visibilty and wind speeds. They can also malfunction. Equipment failure on the ground, inaccurate passing of information, pure human error and weather as well as circumstances round the target all factor into it. There is no such thing as a smart bomb, its a myth that came into being after the freeing of Kuwait. They are all targetted by fallible humans. There is one simple fact in warfare. Accidents will, and do, happen.

Good recently released clip here of an laser guided LGB drop, released from an RAF Harrier, being steered away from possible civilian casualties after the ground circumstances changed after bomb release. The vehicle was confirmed Taliban but then entered an area with civilians so the Pilot directed it to empty ground. Bear in mind he was also flying the aircraft, keeping a lookout for other jets etc etc at the same time. Hardly gung ho behaviour in letting the enemy escape. Not to worry though we got him later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUikQt5NdWg

[Anfield]

Why do people argue over minute points?
Did you say outrage or did you say pathetic, does it matter
27 dead or 33 dead

the WHOLE point of thread was to state my sadness that 27/33 people died as a result of an avoidable bombing mission.