Should the Tories support Indy 2 to save the money markets

Should we now support the Scottish Indy 2 call to save the money markets and keep the European door held open for England and the Leave vote and have Scotland (if we can keep our EU status) act as a gateway. This would see the money folk move to Scotland instead of going to Ireland or mid Europe countries . Let's see if the unionists can see the greater picture and do what's right for the many than the few. This would also see the markets in Ireland left open to a scottish tight up of trade that would disappear with the Leave vote.

So so come on support the Scotland in Europe vote and back Indy 2 ( let's keep the trade channels open )

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Originally Posted by dozy

Should we now support the Scottish Indy 2 call to save the money markets and keep the European door held open for England and the Leave vote and have Scotland (if we can keep our EU status) act as a gateway. This would see the money folk move to Scotland instead of going to Ireland or mid Europe countries . Let's see if the unionists can see the greater picture and do what's right for the many than the few. This would also see the markets in Ireland left open to a scottish tight up of trade that would disappear with the Leave vote.

So so come on support the Scotland in Europe vote and back Indy 2 ( let's keep the trade channels open )

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Dozy, I can actually see your point here.
As there is no facility as things stand for a breakaway state to take auto membership we have to assume that will not happen.
Can you tell me, what year would an independent Scotland be accepted into the EU?
I cannot see business hanging around waiting for Scotland to maybe get sorted, when they could just pop across to Dublin with relative ease.

It's just an idea that hopefully would spur folk into thinking of ways to make the best out of the situation we find ourselves in . Question .If Scotlamd could stay in the EU could we have a dual Scottish/ English passport for those who want to keep their Euro side . As I said could Scotland be the gateway.

If if the Tories had let the Scots referendum go through ,would we have had a EU referendum before 2020 if at all .

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Originally Posted by dozy

It's just an idea that hopefully would spur folk into thinking of ways to make the best out of the situation we find ourselves in . Question .If Scotlamd could stay in the EU could we have a dual Scottish/ English passport for those who want to keep their Euro side . As I said could Scotland be the gateway.

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Nothing wrong with a bit of brainstorming, there is no such thing as an English passport however.
I stated yesterday that I will always vote No to independence, with hindsight I think I may have been too hasty, I am open to discussion on the matter but still very cautious, but if there is a way we can spin things to Scotlands advantage then yeah.
I do think we have made a major mistake by voting the Brexit through.

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Originally Posted by dozy

If if the Tories had let the Scots referendum go through

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What do you mean?

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Originally Posted by dozy

It's just an idea that hopefully would spur folk into thinking of ways to make the best out of the situation we find ourselves in . Question .If Scotlamd could stay in the EU could we have a dual Scottish/ English passport for those who want to keep their Euro side . As I said could Scotland be the gateway.

If if the Tories had let the Scots referendum go through ,would we have had a EU referendum before 2020 if at all .

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Past if's are of no consequence, as for the passport, out is out if Scotland leaves the UK. As I see it a Scottish passport would have to made available for non EU travel for Scots and that would or should include England, I cannot see Westminster lying down and been walked over just as the EU will try and dictate to the UK now a vote has been for out.
If indy comes off there are a hell of a lot more problems for Scotland to resolve than the UK Brexit, at least twice as many. I would like the SNP to actually put on paper for the electorate to see just what it entails to be totally independent, as I personally do not and cannot get my head around it, when I think I have a solution to a problem a moment later there is numerous what if's to change my reasoning.

I can see an independent Scotland in the EU being an economic powerhouse as EU companies will just find it easier to go north to relocate and they will use Scotland as the gateway to the EU 540 million customers.

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Originally Posted by Rheghead

I can see an independent Scotland in the EU being an economic powerhouse as EU companies will just find it easier to go north to relocate and they will use Scotland as the gateway to the EU 540 million customers.

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Its possible, but a lengthy process to gain membership.
Why not just relocate to Dublin or Paris?
Just as easy and already in the EU

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Originally Posted by mi16

Its possible, but a lengthy process to gain membership.
Why not just relocate to Dublin or Paris?
Just as easy and already in the EU

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People of Scotland are already EU citizens, the First minister is already off the blocks to negotiate timescales with the EU representatives. let her do her work. Anything is possible with negotiation if everyone is onboard, that is democracy in action afterall...

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Originally Posted by Rheghead

People of Scotland are already EU citizens, the First minister is already off the blocks to negotiate timescales with the EU representatives. let her do her work. Anything is possible with negotiation if everyone is onboard, that is democracy in action afterall...

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there is no fast track procedure as things stand.

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Originally Posted by mi16

there is no fast track procedure as things stand.

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We had this spread of uncertainty in the scottish independence referendum but it became quickly apparent that Scotland would have no problem gaining EU membership in its own right and yet we were constantly told that Scotland was too small and stupid to do it.

It was Brussels that said that there was no possibility of Scotland remaining in the EU at the time of the Scottish Independence referendum because like it or not, it was the UK as a whole that was the member. Nothing has changed on that front so far as I can see and an independent Scotland would have to renegotiate membership and go to the back of the queue to join. Nicola can protest all she wants but that is the position. If Brussels somehow and amazingly allowed Scotland to remain a member of the EU then the country becomes independent by default without the need for Indy 2!

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Originally Posted by Fulmar

It was Brussels that said that there was no possibility of Scotland remaining in the EU at the time of the Scottish Independence referendum because like it or not, it was the UK as a whole that was the member. Nothing has changed on that front so far as I can see and an independent Scotland would have to renegotiate membership and go to the back of the queue to join. Nicola can protest all she wants but that is the position. If Brussels somehow and amazingly allowed Scotland to remain a member of the EU then the country becomes independent by default without the need for Indy 2!

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You've been reading too many UK right wing papers. That is not accurate, Junker said there is no need for the EU to increase its borders that is a totally different thing to saying Scotland is not allowed into the EU.

Believe what you want to believe! I guess you must have the ear of the powers that be in Brussels yourself, unlike us lesser mortals seeing as how you know so much about it. Oh, and I do not read UK right wing newspapers!

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Originally Posted by Fulmar

Believe what you want to believe! I guess you must have the ear of the powers that be in Brussels yourself, unlike us lesser mortals seeing as how you know so much about it. Oh, and I do not read UK right wing newspapers!

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The statement was made by Junker in his annual summaryon the EU. He did not mention Scotland at all, he just said he was not in favor of the EU expanding its borders for the foreseeable future, he was in fact referring to Turkey et al's aspirations of joining the EU but the UK media successfully twisted his words to make out he was referring to Scotland during the indy debate. It is amazing what a dodgy headline can do before the hard job of factproofing can do as your assertion is a prime example. I do not take pride in correcting you, I just want you to be aware of what was true and what was not.

Take it up with the BBC!

No certainty'
In 2012, the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee sought a clarification about how Scottish independence might affect its EU membership from the then European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso. In his response, Barroso wrote:
"Although there is no certainty, it appears an independent Scotland would not automatically become a member of the EU but would instead have to re-apply and complete a process of accession... A new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the EU and the Treaties would no longer apply on its territory."
Mr Barroso added that an independent Scotland would be able to apply to become a member and the application would be treated in the usual way. This would mean that, if the other member countries accepted the application unanimously, an agreement between Scotland and the EU would be negotiated, the EU Treaties adjusted and, finally, ratified by all member states.
But during the Scottish referendum campaign in 2014, it was unclear whether the EU would permit an independent Scotland to negotiate as a de facto EU member, which would place it on a fast track to accession, or whether the normal, and much lengthier, accession process would be applied. This shorter process would require member states to agree to the EU Treaties being amended to allow Scotland to join, via Article 48 of the Treaty on the European Union.

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Originally Posted by Fulmar

It was Brussels that said that there was no possibility of Scotland remaining in the EU at the time of the Scottish Independence referendum because like it or not, it was the UK as a whole that was the member. Nothing has changed on that front so far as I can see and an independent Scotland would have to renegotiate membership and go to the back of the queue to join. Nicola can protest all she wants but that is the position. If Brussels somehow and amazingly allowed Scotland to remain a member of the EU then the country becomes independent by default without the need for Indy 2!

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It it was not actually Brussels that said that. Brussels made no pronouncement on the issue because they were not asked. Various officials made some remarks that could have and were interpreted as positive by both sides on the issue of Scotland's membership but they were not asked. The reason for that was because the UK was the member they could only discuss the issue with WM.

Everything has has changed on that front. David Cameron is now being excluded from EU meetings. Nicola Sturgeon now has a clear mandate to speak directly to the EU and is taking steps now to do so and EVERYTHING is in the air.

There is a precedent for part of a country to be in the EU and part to be out. Denmark is in and Greenland and the Faroes are out. I think however, that both Greenland and The Faroes have significantly more self determination as part of Denmark than Scotland does as part of the U.K.

Indyref 2 will not be the same animal as Indy ref 1 was. Let's just wait and see

Indyref 2 will not be the same animal as Indy ref 1 was. Let's just wait and see

Yes, I think that is correct, it cannot be so far as I can see. It was Barroso whom I was referring to, as cut and pasted above.

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Originally Posted by Fulmar

But during the Scottish referendum campaign in 2014, it was unclear whether the EU would permit an independent Scotland to negotiate as a de facto EU member, which would place it on a fast track to accession, or whether the normal, and much lengthier, accession process would be applied.

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But during the Scottish referendum campaign in 2014 it was the job of the No campaign to manufacture Uncertainty. So you are right.

But the comments I quoted were made by Barroso who was not, last time I checked, a member of the No campaign or even a citizen of the UK so you have lost me there.