Why don't we 'skip' the electric battery car and go straight to hydrogen? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50212037
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Why don't we 'skip' the electric battery car and go straight to hydrogen? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50212037
Probably because the government can't find an honest way to tax you for using water yet. You should also ask why the rollout of electric cars has been so painfully slow and why they are horrendously expensive for what they are? Someone, somewhere is making a huge killing on the fossil fuel technology and doesn't want to give it up just yet. Just remember that the hydrogen fuel cells were first made around 90 years ago...
90 years ago, that's interesting.....90 years ago we had paper and wood bi-planes, now we can travel to the moon, yet hydrogen technology hasn't progressed much....as you say, there must be a reason 'they' don't want us to have it!
You would think with this so called climate emergency, this technology would be rolled out as fast as possible.
Some manufacturers have been developing Hydrogen fuel cells in the last few years but the pace has been slow. In my opinion, battery technology isn't quite there yet for full electric cars, the better ones are still very expensive and charging stations still few and far between, though admittedly this is improving. Hybrids are a good compromise but they still emit some gases. For city dwellers electric is maybe a good option with better infrastructure and shorter journeys but for more rural areas they aren't quite so good yet.
there are a few cars on the market with 300+miles range now with fast recharging capability also.
Id be interested to see if that can be achieved in the real world though.
Also I would not normally shop in the brand new market, I wonder how these cars will fare when 5 to 10 years old?
Top gear (entertainment I know) did a piece on used electric cars Nisan Leaf and Renault Zoe a few years old I think and their range was abysmal.
I saw that Top Gear and because the batteries were worn out the car was classes as worthless! I was in Inverness last week and called into Hawco VW just to look at electric cars. I was shown a lovely Golf, you would never know it was electric to look at....then came the question about range......140 miles! And that's not real world driving. So, electric car on hold for now. When you can easily do 300 miles and not worry about charging point, I will switch as I do have to do some fairly long journeys quite often.
People tend to forget that the batteries on an EV usually last around 6 years and less if they're constantly run at below 40-50%. The replacement of these can be around 5k and considering most new cars these days are worth around 5k at 6 years old, nobody in their right mind will buy a 6 year old EV with the prospect of having to fork out a further 5k to replace ageing batteries unless it is really cheap.
Doesn’t make them very green if they are binned after 6yrs does it?
The eGolf will shortly be discontinued and replaced with the ID.3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodfellers
I wonder if that's why they were trying to encourage me to buy one, no mention of an ID.3. Offered excellent trade in on my current Golf (way more than webuyanycar) Makes sense now. Hopefully the ID 3 will have a much better range.Quote:
Originally Posted by moshmosh
340 miles on the top spec version, 200 odd for the lesser specced ones
Still poor unless you are shelling out on a range topper
I note that what car have not managed to get an EV to manage over 300 in the real world yet.
the ID3 will be higish 20k mark to buy with a 100000 mile or 8 year (whichever 1st) guarantee of batteries retaining charge at above 70% - so if you but the best one you should be looking at a range of around 240 miles up to the 8 year old or 100k mark.
£35k for top spec = £4375/year or 35p mile after which will be scrap value
On those figures, not yet worth the investment. I'm all for saving the planet but that seems quite a steep price to pay. They need to hurry the hydrogen cars along. I don't mind paying a lot for a green car so long as it's going to last more than eight years.
obviously that is not taking running costs into account eitherQuote:
Originally Posted by Goodfellers
Then there are other problems connected to electric cars that little is talked about -
Cobalt mining for the batteries
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/...tric-vehicles/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49759626
Wow. This place looks just the same after all these years......
Loads of issues with hydrogen as a fuel; low energy density, difficulties of storage, ruinously expensive and inefficient to produce by electrolysis........ as a mass-market solution to transport needs it's pretty much nowhere. Fuel cells may be different, but many of the same problems exist. Bit of a summary >>>here<<<
The storage thing is easiest imagined by thinking of a kid's balloon full of helium - within an hour it's noticeably deflated because helium molecules are small enough to pass through the balloon wall rather easily. Hydrogen molecules are much smaller again. "Normal" gas-tight joints in pipes will allow some hydrogen through. Nightmare........... :lol:
Plus the other issues Bill mentioned....... want an environmental and human disaster? Congo, Australia....... they're all over. Euro 6 diesels are a good staging post - but oh yes. The Government banned IC engines from 2040..........
And another inconvenient truth is the 'whole life' carbon emissions of an electric car.
To get the raw materials and manufacture an electric car battery the emissions are about 3200kg of CO2 more than a conventional engine. The emissions to recycle the battery are similar at 3000kg of CO2. So to supply and later recycle a typical electric car battery is about 6200kg of CO2. Therefore the only saving is during the operational life of the car.
A family size petrol car may typically emit 200gCO2 per km. So a conventional car would have to be driven 6200/0.2 = 31000km. Just short of 20000 miles before an electric car becomes "greener". Also that assumes the electricity to charge the battery is 100% supplied from green sources. Which it isn't.
And even if it was, that still is not taking into account the CO2 produces in manufacture and construction of the "green" energy sourceQuote:
Originally Posted by Stargazer
Of course we are not taking into account the CO2 in production of hydrocarbon fuel either though
and mi16Quote:
Originally Posted by Stargazer
Well in fairness, the OP was talking hydrogen, but it's a killer point you make, Stargazer / mi16 and one that was stoutly resisted by one or two on here when I applied it to windmills springing up everywhere back in about 2007..... no one takes in the end-to-end cost of the project (or if they do, they don't publicise the result which tells its own story).
It's a pity the government is focussing on EV cars. If there was more demand for hydrogen fuel the price would tumble to at least compete with petrol and possibly electric as a fuel. Also, increased supply/demand for fuel cells would drop the price. Both these factors would help drive vehicle price and running cost to be competitive with conventional or EV.
Also the infrastructure for mass liquid fuel transport is in place. Is installing a hydrogen pump similar to installing an EV charging point? Fewer hydrogen pumps would be needed compared to charging points.
Stargazer, do you envisage hydrogen being stored and transported as a gas or a liquid?
The thought of driving behind a tanker loaded with pressurised hydrogen gas fills me with dread. Somehow liquid hydrogen sounds less dangerous, even if it isn’t in reality!
Maybe we’ll find a better, more environmentally friendly, technology for batteries in the near future. One can hope...
I seriously doubt you'll ever find yourself behind a tanker of liquid hydrogen. Hydrogen cannot be liquefied by pressure unless its temperature is 33 deg K or lower (in old money about -240 deg C). And as I pointed out above, it leaks out of everything. It cannot be stored efficiently. Liquid hydrogen is plenty dangerous, but mainly because of its temperature; and the energy involved in liquifying and keeping it liquid is immense. Complete non-starter as a mass-market fuel.
I know it has to be colder than hell to liquefy the stuff, but liquefaction should cure some of the problem with leakage!
:lol: And as we approach the (hopefully slight) possibility that Agent Cob may be able to form a government (if that's quite the word I'm looking for) that will nationalise its way back to the glory days of the 1950s, 60s and 70s, we remember the good old standby for the leaky cooling system on BL cars; crack a raw egg into the coolant and let the engine tick over for half an hour. I wonder if there's an equivalent for hydrogen?
I can’t think of a hydrogen equivalent of the poached egg trick. Anyone?
The skippers on the ferries in Orkney don't share your fears......Quote:
Originally Posted by aqua
https://images.app.goo.gl/zGQMCBSQA6D1NYjD6
What is that thing for?
Ok, I’ve been reading about Shapinsay’s hydrogen economy.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...hydrogen-power
Interesting and impressive.
I guess you will now have gleaned, its a hydrogen tube trailer. Used for transporting compressed hydrogen gas from the point of manufacture to the point of use. Yes, at this stage, still drawn by a standard diesel powered artic unit, but maybe the day will come where the unit is also hydrogen powered.Quote:
Originally Posted by aqua
Thanks for confirming. Since I couldn’t read the lettering on the photo, I read one of the articles your Google search had brought up!
It seems technology moves fast. Lets hope this becomes a practical reality. I will buy a hydrogen powered car as soon as a practical one is available as I'm not so sure about battery powered cars. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52328786
Cars should be electric and hydrogen should be used by trucks to replace dirty diesel .Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodfellers
A fuel filter will soon sort out dirty diesel
Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier - I heard on Radio 4 a few days ago about a new storage technology for hydrogen - early days yet although it sounds potentially a game changer for storing and use of hydrogen in vehicles. The link is on the BBC website https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52328786 - it involves using a new sponge like metal technology that can store masses of hydrogen in a relative small area. It sounds safer than the current storage systems.
Like others on this forum I personally think electric cars are a dead end (too expensive, not really environmentally friendly, and could not replace the current number of vehicles used worldwide or in the UK) - unless we want to cosy up to China for the next 60 years as they control access to many of the chemicals required to make electric vehicles storage batteries, plus the terrible conditions of mainly very young children used to mine the metals required, in some of the African countries.
The 'sponge' story caught my attention a few days ago (post 32). Lets hope something practical comes from it. I imagine we could produce enough hydrogen up here with all our excess wind power.Quote:
Originally Posted by richardj
I hear Trump wants to go mining on the moon for the rare earth (moon?) minerals used in battery technology as he isn't keen on the Chinese controlling the supply. How that will be cost efficient is beyond my comprehension! At least there would be no forced child labour.
With the price of oil now at historic lows, I think we will all be driving petrol/diesel cars for a lot longer, as the oil companies now say they don't have the cash to invest in cleaner technology! Plus if petrol is under a £1 litre, who is going to buy a new 'cleaner' car?
You are correct.....
They have been playing with Hydrogen for many years! It is the cost that is prohibitive.
Our Petrol (gasoline) is presently approx 70 cents....35p...... its all going on the back burner again.
The reason they are trying it again, is that European Companies are getting Grants from the Government (our money), and the other Companies that are coming forward with Private Funds, are really obtaining more Govt Grants or Tax breaks....(Our money)!
It’s a Series of ‘Smoke and Mirrors‘.