Deciding Scotland's Future

So, it appears a Brexit deal may shortly be announced. This agreement will have a profound effect upon all of us for many years to come.

The deal will, of course, have to be ratified by the parties to it. In an EU context that means that each member state has to agree before the EU as a whole can sign off on the deal. In other words, each member state has a veto that could prevent ratification. In the UK, the Westminster parliament will be asked to provide the ratification. However, unlike the EU the member states of the UK will have no say. The deal will be ratified (and it will) by Westminster irrespective of the clearly expressed views of the people of Scotland.

Scotland was prevented from having any say in the negotiations leading up to this deal and you can bet your bottom dollar that our voice will be ignored when it comes to ratification.

And so, we find ourselves in the situation where Ireland, Finland, Malta, Croatia, Slovenia, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Cyprus, Czechia, Slovakia, Luxembourg and Denmark (all small countries similar, or smaller, in size to Scotland) will have a say in our future but we don't.

We will be in a position where other countries' parliaments have our future in their hands. Politicians in Valetta, Riga, Dublin and Copenhagen have more power over our future than we do.

It is time to take back control and, quite frankly, give ourselves some respect and dignity. Scotland needs to be independent so that Scots have the level of power over their own lives and destiny as everyone else, in the western world at least.

In 2021 we may get the chance to do that. We have to take it.

I understand your concerns......
Firstly, you need ‘decent’ representation from your elected officials.....
And Covid will not be over tomorrow, nor in the near future.
Perhaps these issues should be taken into consideration, before rushing into ‘the unknown’!
Just my observations as an ‘outsider’ Scot.

You are missing the point. No matter who Scotland elects they will ignored and marginalised by Westminster. We could elect 59 Nobel Laureates and it would no difference. That is why we need to take charge of our own destiny and not be content to leave it up to others to decide for us.

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Originally Posted by Corky Smeek

You are missing the point. No matter who Scotland elects they will ignored and marginalised by Westminster. We could elect 59 Nobel Laureates and it would no difference. That is why we need to take charge of our own destiny and not be content to leave it up to others to decide for us.

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I get the point. I do somewhat agree you shud be in charge of your own Country, but ‘goodness’, your leadership cannot agree on anything, and to ‘The Lay Person’ Corruption abounds!
The extent that the Court Case against Salmond was initiated and the results, show something seriously wrong! Am sure u must agree.
And just now really is not the time to talk of Indyref2....Where people are dying from...Neglect! We have it also.
Everyone should band together......it is an Obligation!

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Originally Posted by The Horseman

I get the point. I do somewhat agree you shud be in charge of your own Country, but ‘goodness’, your leadership cannot agree on anything, and to ‘The Lay Person’ Corruption abounds!
The extent that the Court Case against Salmond was initiated and the results, show something seriously wrong! Am sure u must agree.
And just now really is not the time to talk of Indyref2....Where people are dying from...Neglect! We have it also.
Everyone should band together......it is an Obligation!

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There is no question, Scotland should be a normal country. Just as Canada is no longer ruled by Westminster and would not consider being ruled by Washington. Scotland should be independent.
The internal squabbles of the SNP administration are incidental to the current situation. Most of the people of Scotland can see through that. The SNP are not the be all and end all of independence, they are but a means to and end. Once independent we can choose a government of whatever shade we want.
Now is precisely the time for independence. Boris Johnson and his right-wing cronies have done immense damage to the UK and we don’t want any part of it. His Internal Market Bill will undermine twenty years of devolved administration. The Bill, as it stands, means Westminster can attempt to force fracking in the central belt, sell of Scottish Water and privatise the Scottish NHS; all are anathema to the majority of the people of Scotland.
The Covid pandemic didn’t stop Westminster pressing on with Brexit, which Scotland did not vote for. So, there is no reason to stop the drive for independence.
Where was your sentiment, ‘Everyone should band together......it is an Obligation!’ at the beginning of the year when the devastation of Covid hit the UK and yet the Tory government insisted in pressing on with breaking away from our European neighbours?

The current squabbles.....Incidental? Hardly the word one should use!
12(Twelve) serious charges thrown out of Court...Trivial!
...Come on.....you cannot hold a vote just now......In my opinion Brexit is a different Animal.

And a small Highly Respected Country,..namely Scotland, where I came from, to be thrust into the International Headlines of Corruption is disgusting. They are still bickering...but ask yourself....E’ POLIS and The Judicial System had to have reasonable grounds to lay the Charges, and then they get Tossed! For want of a better word. Explain INCIDENTAL!
Something very wrong. This does not occur in a Democratic Country.. perhaps China/Russia...The Un mannie?

The Horseman. The squabbles you refer to was an underhand plot to discredit Alex Salmond. The Scottish Office, part of the Westminster government, was left with egg on its face when the charges were disproved. The electorate saw it for what it was and are moving on. There is an inquiry taking place which will, in due course, find the truth about who was complicit. In the great scheme of things, it is incidental, except for those who wish to talk Scotland down, and label SNP bad.
As I said before SNP are just a means to an end.
Meanwhile the majority of the people of Scotland continue to support the drive to independence, 17 polls confirm this. Of course, there are dissidents like yourself that will argue that Scotland is too wee, too poor and not smart enough to be a normal country.
I feel sad that there are still people of Scots origin who are happy with the current democratic deficit, to see Scotland forever tied to England where extreme right-wing sentiments, xenophobic behaviour and ethnic racism is embraced.

Gronnuck, you do a huge disservice to all the countless thousands and indeed millions of citizens of England who stand up to and fight against ''extreme right-wing sentiments, xenophobic behaviour and ethnic racism is embraced''
You seem to enjoy promoting the view that everyone in England is bad- why? Who is the one who is exhibiting xenophobic behaviour and ethnic racism?

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Originally Posted by Fulmar

Gronnuck, you do a huge disservice to all the countless thousands and indeed millions of citizens of England who stand up to and fight against ''extreme right-wing sentiments, xenophobic behaviour and ethnic racism is embraced''
You seem to enjoy promoting the view that everyone in England is bad- why? Who is the one who is exhibiting xenophobic behaviour and ethnic racism?

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I'm sorry but I believe you are OTT there Fulmar. Gronnuck never once mentioned the "citizens of England". The reference was regarding the present Tory government, where even other senior Tories have stated that the present cabinet have descended into "Extreme Right-Wing, British Nationalism".......Lord Chris Patten.

Yes, there are many in England who are horrified at what's going on, and I really feel for them, but what you claim is certainly not how I read Gronnuck's statement.

Well, I will accept that is not what was meant then.

Why is it that outsiders can see something in us that too many of us cannot see?

A Danish lad asked the question, "Should Scotland Be Independent ?" and then set about making a short film on the subject. It's only 4½ minutes long and well worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwZ0TVBkVqE

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Originally Posted by Fulmar

Gronnuck, you do a huge disservice to all the countless thousands and indeed millions of citizens of England who stand up to and fight against ''extreme right-wing sentiments, xenophobic behaviour and ethnic racism is embraced''
You seem to enjoy promoting the view that everyone in England is bad- why? Who is the one who is exhibiting xenophobic behaviour and ethnic racism?

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Fulmar. My apologies for not making myself as clear as perhaps I should. I should have said, “England, where extreme right-wing sentiments, xenophobic behaviour and ethnic racism is on the increase.” IMO this is encouraged by the government’s ‘hostile immigration’ policies, their treatment of asylum seekers, etc. You only have to look at the English main stream media, particularly the Daily Mail and the Daily Express to see how people are being fed right-wing ideology.
However, the saddest thing for me is that significant numbers of England’s electorate voted for this Tory government who are committed to continue to pursue an extreme right-wing agenda.
Of course, not all the people in England agree with these policies. I have close relatives and English friends who are as alarmed as I am.

gronnuck should we only then be fed left wing ideology

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Originally Posted by dc1

gronnuck should we only then be fed left wing ideology

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No; and I didn't suggest anything like that. You appear to be looking at the world through the prism of Westminster and the greater England project.
If and when Scotland becomes a normal country, free of the subjugation of the English parliament we can elect the Scottish government of any shade we choose. Currently there are 533 English MPs yet only 59 Scottish MPs in Westminster and so to all intents and purposes we are ruled by an English parliament.
The electoral system in Scotland with its ‘list’ system is such that it would rarely return a full majority administration so parties would have to work in coalition. However, in order to have a government that works for Scotland we have to gain independence first and establish new Scottish political parties, registered and working for Scotland.
As far as I’m concerned, the people of Scotland should have the right to have a government of our own choosing, we deserve no less. I’d be looking for something left of centre; perhaps Liberals and the Greens.

Can I trust what’s written in The Daily Mail? Ty

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Originally Posted by The Horseman

Can I trust what’s written in The Daily Mail? Ty

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Why don't you google "reliability of the Daily Mail", then make your own mind up.

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Originally Posted by Shabbychic

Why don't you google "reliability of the Daily Mail", then make your own mind up.

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I see they are partly owned by The Harmsworth Family...I take it some of them lived just South of Wick!

****And ‘The Battle Rages’......Not about Independence...but...the Truthlessness of the Leaders.

What a mess......

@ The Horseman.

Judging by the above post, I presume that you have now googled "reliability of the Daily Mail" and have been reassured to discover that is it indeed as rabidly right wing and anti-Scottish as you were hoping. Presumably you are getting the sort of guff quoted above from sources such as the DM.

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Originally Posted by Corky Smeek

@ The Horseman.

Judging by the above post, I presume that you have now googled "reliability of the Daily Mail" and have been reassured to discover that is it indeed as rabidly right wing and anti-Scottish as you were hoping. Presumably you are getting the sort of guff quoted above from sources such as the DM.

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Actually No. The ‘row and accusations’ are scattered around.....you are beating......The Donald! There are many allegations here of many different offences. I suppose we think of Scotland in a grandiose manner, not falling prey to Sex and Perjury allegations. That’s what makes it ‘the spice of life’. The Media love that!
Yes, Canada has it’s own probs....we have very little Vaccine! Our Gov’t fell down on this one. We depend greatly on America, and even with a New Team in The White House, it doesn’t help.