Printable View
I did part of the 500 over the weekend, the drivers of those big campervans which majority had self hire stickers on, Can't and should not be driving them, no size awareness, can't park the things and definitely can't reverse. The size of most are as big as as the small lorrys of which you need a special licence, don't antl on that they are lighter therefore no need for a special licence, most of the twats that drive them are just that, twats.
Welcome to the Highlands, but get oot'o' the way.
My main issue with them is that they don't appear to understand the idea of passing places and simply plough on expecting everyone else to give way to them.
It is amusing to see them manoeuvring their vehicles, I just wait for the crunch, everything you say is true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bowler
Just dont yield to them, if they come at you past a passing place, make them either reverse or take the ditch.
I do not know anyone who truly welcomes them among ordinary folk- different I suppose if you are in the hospitality sector maybe? My main argument against them though is the CO2 emissions and impact on climate change- if we are serious about climate change, why are we allowing this activity of driving hundreds of un-necessary miles to take place?
So it's "Bash the Camper-vanners Week". For goodness sake live and let live. What do you think the reaction on here would be if someone suggested banning golf or fresh-water fishing. How about a complete ban on dogs? I mean they foul the pavements and bark all the damn time, don't they? Why not ban train spotters or cyclists? And of course there's those pesky ornithologists cluttering up the place with their expensive binoculars.
My point is (as if you hadn't already guessed) that one person's annoyance is another person's pleasure. I can't abide golf but that doesn't mean it's not a perfectly valid recreational activity. Camper-vanners are just ordinary folks, like you and me, looking to gain new experiences.
We all have our irrational standpoints. Look at road users. Depending upon whether we are walking, cycling, motor-cycling or driving a car or a camper-van we can find ourselves cursing at others whilst conveniently forgetting that last week the roles were reversed.
I'm sorry, I'm preaching but I had to get that off my chest.
Fine, Corky but you have not addressed the actual issue of emissions. Climate change is the greatest risk to all our futures and accepted to be so. Pandemic lockdown led to a welcome reduction in emissions and cleaner air so fewer deaths from respiratory illnesses such as asthma among children. People could hear the birds sing! I will not have the same grounds for objection when all the camper vans are electric. Well, unless maybe I will if some of them continue to empty their toilets at beauty spots leaving residents with the mess to clear up. I speak as someone who tries to limit un-necessary use of car (have not yet switched to electric as can't afford one) and use bus, my bike or feet as much as I can- not so easy in rural Caithness. When we go away, we travel to one place (usually in Scotland) and stay in residential accommodation and explore locally round there- walking etc. The carbon impact of that is much less.
Would you really in your heart of hearts welcome this if you were affected by it? Why should residents be expected to welcome this- it is not 'live and let live'. We had some of this this last year where I am
From the BBC website today:
communities on the Sutherland coast being "swamped" by post-lockdown visitors in the summer.
Problems included littering and campervan chemical toilets being emptied in lay-bys.
Some communities have complained of experiencing a repeat of these issues over the recent May bank holiday weekend.
Tourism committee chairman Gordon Adam said: "The Scottish government's ongoing commitment to a temporary relaxation of planning controls allows Highland Council to consider temporary use of appropriate locations for overnight stops in motorhomes without formal planning permission.
The people in the vans are usually found to be very nice, however they need to consider how their actions impact the area they are visiting, then may be all will be happy.
For example when I used to visit cities down south it appeared to be acceptable to be sick on pavements, urinate up car wheels, dump rubbish/litter and give the finger to any motorist that annoys you. Happy days !
@ Fulmar. I thought the main themes of the thread were the deficiencies in driving and the behaviour of camper-van owners. But, I do agree with you on emissions. We all have a part to play but playing that part means giving up, or at least reducing, our use of things we enjoy. It may also mean making other sacrifices like enduring wind farms on our doorsteps and accepting that cyrobattery plants need to be built. Not everyone is willing to accept the need for change. Education, education, education seems the best approach.
On the issue of the behaviour of camper-vanners I am not trying to excuse anti-social behaviour. Find the biggest book you can and throw it at those who empty their toilets by the roadside. However, the vast majority of people in camper-vans are just like the rest of us - decent, considerate, and law-abiding. We should not penalise them for the sins of a few idiots.
(Yes, well we do have the wind farms and I personally don't want any more land-based ones in Caithness as I think there are too many here already and it is well known that the off shore ones are far better in any case so that is now where they should be, in my view). I agree about the education issue and also, that most camper van folk are all the things that you say. However, there will probably still be a trail of litter, trash and waste after the camper van season here and some people obviously lack the ability to drive them on narrow single track roads through inexperience and complete lack of awareness.
I Started this thread,
I have lived in the Highlands for over 60 years for 45 of them I've driven motorcycles , for 40 of them I have driven cars vans and trucks for 35 of them I have towed caravans, I currently still drive motorcycles, cars and a small camper.
My point is I drove 285 miles south to Lairg, across to Ullapool and up the wast coast ve'a Durness back to Thurso on my motorcycle over the past weekend.
My experience this time was big campervans obviously hired and driven buy people who can not handle such a large vehicle and do not give way, in fact on many occasions when I pulled into the laybuys of which you should always pull into the left even when the laybuy is on the right, the ar###ols dam near wiped me out,
That inexperience and attitude deserves a smashed wing mirror, then they'd loose their £500 hire deposit.
That is why my thread was started.
THESE PEOPLE ARE TWATS.
As I said welcome to Scotland but get oot'o'the way.
I wonder how many of the tree huggers make journeys to Inverness to go shopping on a regular basis or drive to the central belt to fly away on holidays.
I don’t think a few thousand visitors to the highlands annually will make a significant difference to our air quality or the plant on the whole.
I welcome them to our area and whilst they can be a pest on single track roads to be fair they have probably never experienced them before, I remember the first time I drove in a major city with multiple lanes etc or even on foreign shores , it was carnage until I got used to it.
These motorhome hire outfits should be educating their customers on how to drive on the roads they are likely to encounter.
Well, I don't do either if you are meaning me. I think about my journeys and try to minimise my environmental impact as best I can as I want there to still be an inhabitable planet left for future generations to live in. No, I'm not perfect, far from it but who is. On an individual basis, all anyone can do (and we are encouraged to do it) is to at the very least do that. It is small steps by lots of people that will make a difference. But as I have already been reminded by gaza that this was not the purpose of the thread, best to shut up on the subject! There's nothing wrong with tree hugging though or planting them in your garden.
Also, I truly welcome the visitors but not the means of transport. It is possible to go and visit an area not in a camper van!
Well fulmar, That is very admirable from you. No holidays or trips away for me would become very boring indeed.
We don’t own this part of the world that we are very fortunate to inhabit and every time I look out my window can see exactly why all these motor homes and tourists flood here every spring to autumn and who can blame them escaping the concrete jungles for the beauty of the North of Scotland.
Personally, in normal times drive 450m a week and fly fairly regularly for work also.
Over and above that I like to drive for pleasure also, have a classic car which is not the most efficient in the world but is rarely driven.
Life is for living, I enjoy seeing different places and people and have no intention on changing that anytime soon.
What we do need though is a marked improvement in the infrastructure to accommodate the visitors, more public toilets, more motorhome chemical toilet recharge points, more electric vehicle charge points.
More eating establishments offering food between 2pm and 5pm and later in the evening.
Very valid point regarding the infrastructure but unfortunately the powers that be are not interested in the North of Scotland, not even in the short term.
Despite the issue of being overwhelmed last year by the massive numbers of tourists being raised with the authorities, nothing has been done to alleviate the problems being experienced again.
The politicians, the Highland Council and the Police have sat back and watched the situation develop and are now saying, "ooh look there's a problem here".
Regards establishments in the North though, it would be a brave person that opens up any business up here, good luck to them if they can make it a success.
The problems won't last too long when people start flying abroad and never visit the North of Scotland again. especially when the landscape has been industrialised with windfarms.
Maybe those that are making money out of NC500 should be made to contribute more to the cost of repairing the damage caused and the cost of providing additional facilities so that they don't park in passing places, empty waste at road side etc. Those hiring out Camper vans need to carry out an induction on how to behave on single track roads. Caithness / N Sutherland was quite happy with the level of tourism business before they started marketing it as NC500. The shear volume of extra traffic since and the rise of massive Camper vans has only degraded the visitor's experience. Some of the regular visitors we used to have, including those from Europe, no longer come here now as not the holiday it used to be.
By the way, you are wasting your breath appealing to such people to take a more protective approach to the environment. If that was the case, would they even hire a Camper van in the first place? The irony is they treat the countryside like a play park for city slickers and yet they are destroying the very thing they come here for.
And some Camper van drivers do try and behave properly - so they are not all bad.
And how do you propose you determine who is making money from the NC500Quote:
Originally Posted by Better Out Than In
I totally agree, but how is a motorhome rental in Edinburgh or Perth supposed to know they are heading to single track roads, it’s the drivers responsibility ultimately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Better Out Than In
I disagree with that, Caithness has never exploited tourism properly, the islands are way ahead of us in that regardQuote:
Originally Posted by Better Out Than In
Does anyone consider hiring Students and give them an area to distribute flyers, and speak to people about the areas and to treat the ground carefully/with respect.
You could call them..Cleanliness Ambassadors!
Yes some people don’t care, But.....if they are continually reminded to do good, they may ‘toe the line’!
Putting leaflets in ‘Self Service Bins’ or tacked to a tree doesn’t quite get the same Attention as it being handed to them!
& who's gonna pay them?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Horseman
The Council/Govt...who else!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrock
I am sure that it would be a good cheap way of getting the msg out.
The really bad Campers etc will always be there. Educate the Good ones.
And has anyone ever thought just maybe, students could get some School Credits for doing Community work. Then u wouldn’t have to pay them!
Not going to happen, they can't even find the money to fix the potholes.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Horseman
Education system over here doesn't work like that over here, can't buy your way through school.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Horseman
Broadly speaking there are two groups of camper-vanners. There are those who wish to wild camp and will only stay on a campsite as a last resort. The second group do the opposite - prefer campsites and will only wild camp if there is no alternative. Currently, the law in Scotland allows wild-camping, provided it is not on private property or in breach of local bye-laws, ie overnight stays in local authority car parks. I think it would be fair to say that since campsites generally provide facilities for all forms of waste disposal that the group we need to be concerned about most are the irresponsible wild campers.
I said in an earlier post that education is the key. I think maybe I should revise that. We are not going to be able to stop people from wild camping so what we need to do is manage the situation better. Anyone who has ever been to France will know that practically every village (in popular tourist areas) has an Aire de Service (Service Area). These vary wildly in what they have to offer. Some are basically just a waste disposal facility, which every passing camper-vanner can use, whilst others offer overnight pitches and even electric hook-ups. In many, the service offered is free in others you have to pay to access some or all of what is offered. The point is, that in France they have learned to manage the situation. Some popular spots are almost over-run by camper vans during peak season. To avoid the chaos this causes the Aires de Services system provides places where camper-vanners can park, dispose of waste and sometimes even spend the night. These Aires de Service are rarely if ever staffed. If payment is required is it usually via a machine. And all the while the locals are not driven demented by irresponsible camper-vanners blocking narrow streets and having waste disposed of at the roadside.
I know there are some plans to introduce some Aires on the NC500. The more the better as far as I am concerned. The outlay costs can be recouped by charging (modestly) for the services provided. The system has made a big difference in France. I feel we in Scotland could learn from it.
Corky
I’m a bit confused as to why you would class all wild campers as irresponsible?
I would say the majority of wild campers are very responsible, with just the minority tarring them with a bad name
BUY? It would be a lesson in Social Responsibility!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrock
And how much would it cost to fund a few students........it works everywhere else in The World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mi16
That's not what I meant to say. Sorry if I created that impression. The sentence would have been better as follows:-
"....the group we need to be concerned about most are those wild campers who act irresponsibly.".
I think that the solution you outline is the way to go, definitely. It would save some people using the old herring buildings as toilets which is what has been happening again this year.
On this thread there have been many good suggestions of how to manage tourism.
Unfortunately you have to take in to account the main stumbling block - The Highland Council, who are very reluctant to invest any funding in anything in the North of Scotland or help in any other way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Horseman
Yes Buy... We don't have a matriculation system here where you either pass or fail school, so you can't make up for poor school work by obtaining "Credits" for doing other things. Each subject is seperate & you either pass or fail in each of them, no minimum requirement for overall school performance.
When I was at Lybster School I was on the Road Safety Committee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrock
When I went to Wick High, I joined the ROC..(Royal Observer Corps) sometimes sitting in a Bunker 30 feet underground at Latheron Cemetery. It had a Bomb Power Indicator with ‘flash paper’) that had to be changed regularly, and silhouettes of Russian Aircraft to compare with planes overhead, during the day. Actually we were paid a small amount for our contribution.........
Whatever happened to the initiates of People and their Mentors.
Perhaps your comments at the bottom of your Posts really mean something... We are trapped in the Belly of a Horrible Machine.....etc.
Another thing about the Aires de Service network in France is that there is usually a sign, as you enter a town, indicating there is an Aire available. This means there is no excuse for not using it. The precise locations of these Aires are also available on phone apps and in book form. It is, therefore, perfectly possible to plan a journey knowing that you are going to have access to waste disposal facilities. Another benefit is that camper-vanners may stop for a while and spend money in local businesses. Surely that is preferable to them driving on, past a town, to a place where they illicitly dump toilet waste.
Had an interesting conversation with an English campervan driver recently. He has been driving campervans for many, many years. He told me with much frustration in his voice how sick he was of those that hire camper vans without a clue of how to drive them and how ignorant they are regards the highway code etc. He complained about how they can not get to grips with the size of the vans and how selfish they are. He was recently hit by a passing hire van who did not stop to see if there had been any damage to either van. He was concerned that camper vanners would be getting a bad name due to the hirers, I politely informed him they already have.
Says it all really.
They need to stop people driving on a car licence, they should have to sit a test before being let loose on the roads.
As an outsider, who is planning on starting a business in Caithness, this is an interesting thread to follow. Although I don't have strong feeling for rental camper vans, I did see some constructive comments by Horseman and Corky.
I think indeed that the concerns expressed by many are valid, and should be heard. Having a background in helping people "change", I do agree that education is the way to go. Keep repeating, keep educating. Handing out information leaflets in person is much more effective than just providing them in central locations. The personal hand-out makes the connection, and makes the message "real". In terms of the cost of this; As a local business in the tourism sector, I would not mind sponsoring such an activity. I think it would be very relevant to relate my business to such initiatives. It may not bring me any additional business, it will show however what, as a business, we stand for and care about.
Road maintenance of course is a completely different topic. This is a completely different scale of funding.
Anyway; if anyone would really be interested in launching such an awareness campaign, please keep me in the loop, as I am definitely willing to be part of it.