View Full Version : I don't believe what I heard!
porshiepoo
11-May-06, 14:54
All the time that I've been here in caithness I've never come across open prejudice or hostilities between English and Scottish (othere than on this forum ;) but I have to say what I heard today completely stunned me, it wasn't so much what was said but the manner in which it was said, and where.
I was in a shop at the counter and two of the staff there were having a conversation obviously about the football, I didn't need to listen in as it was going on right next to me and not exactly quietly so I got to hear whether I wanted to or not. Anyway these two ladies were harping on about how a commentator on the football had said 'It's now us against the world' and were saying how ridiculous and over played this comment was. They then went on to say how 'They' never shut up about a win that was over forty years ago blah blah blah and how they hope anyone other than England wins. The next few minutes were spent basically in the same manner - berating England.
Now what made it worse for me was that I was stood right next to them and had spoken to the counter staff so they knew I was English yet did it stop them - nope! The worst of it was that this was in the post office in wick high street at the counters where evryone stand.
I was sorely tempted to suggest they leave their ignorant, prejudice remarks for the coffee break gossip but I really didn't think I'd be able to say it in a nice way.
Maybe I'm being a bit sensitive about this as I have heard the England football win comment many times and for someone who doesn't like football it's never bothered me. But the real problem was the way in which it was said and the fact that these two counter staff women didn't care one iota that maybe there were English customers in hearing range, who were feeling more than a tad uncomfortable about their nasty comments re England.
Perhaps these women are in no way prejudice to England but the way their comments were put certainly didn't make it sound that way.
I absolutely love caithness and it's people but that one ignorant conversation has left me a lot more aware of these ancient resentments and a lot less naiive.:(
All the time that I've been here in caithness I've never come across open prejudice or hostilities between English and Scottish (othere than on this forum but I have to say what I heard today completely stunned me, it wasn't so much what was said but the manner in which it was said, and where.
I was in a shop at the counter and two of the staff there were having a conversation obviously about the football, I didn't need to listen in as it was going on right next to me and not exactly quietly so I got to hear whether I wanted to or not. Anyway these two ladies were harping on about how a commentator on the football had said 'It's now us against the world' and were saying how ridiculous and over played this comment was. They then went on to say how 'They' never shut up about a win that was over forty years ago blah blah blah and how they hope anyone other than England wins. The next few minutes were spent basically in the same manner - berating England.
Now what made it worse for me was that I was stood right next to them and had spoken to the counter staff so they knew I was English yet did it stop them - nope! The worst of it was that this was in the post office in wick high street at the counters where evryone stand.
I was sorely tempted to suggest they leave their ignorant, prejudice remarks for the coffee break gossip but I really didn't think I'd be able to say it in a nice way.
Maybe I'm being a bit sensitive about this as I have heard the England football win comment many times and for someone who doesn't like football it's never bothered me. But the real problem was the way in which it was said and the fact that these two counter staff women didn't care one iota that maybe there were English customers in hearing range, who were feeling more than a tad uncomfortable about their nasty comments re England.
Perhaps these women are in no way prejudice to England but the way their comments were put certainly didn't make it sound that way.
I absolutely love caithness and it's people but that one ignorant conversation has left me a lot more aware of these ancient resentments and a lot less naiive.
Porshie, its not the English people that most Scots that I know dislike, its the MEDIA and all the worst that comes out when we have this sort of thing rammed down our throats. i.e. 19 blooming 66!!!!! I love my English relations and my English pals a few I have met in here. BUT when the World Cup comes along, I change my nationality every time England plays, because I shout for the team that is playing England, once the World Cup is over sanity reigns, and I am normal again.
Porshie, please dont take it personal, its in the Sots genes :confused
Porshie, its not the English people that most Scots that I know dislike, its the MEDIA and all the worst that comes out when we have this sort of thing rammed down our throats. i.e. 19 blooming 66!!!!! I love my English relations and my English pals a few I have met in here. BUT when the World Cup comes along, I change my nationality every time England plays, because I shout for the team that is playing England, once the World Cup is over sanity reigns, and I am normal again.
Porshie, please dont take it personal, its in the Sots genes :confused
Pretty much agree with Golach here, it's the media wot does my head in. Though still pretty ignorant and unprofessional of the counter staff to make those comments. No very nice.
That's why the queue is always to the door, they are doing more gossiping than serving.:roll:
You should of said something to them porshiepoo, it might learn them to keep their gob's shut in future and concentrate on their queue of customers.
Afraid there is a very vocal, very small minority of 'outsider haters' around here, most of whom have never ventured beyond the borders of Scotland.
"Outsider haters"
They were speaking about the English football team.
Reality/hyposensitvity check required
Whitewater
11-May-06, 16:36
It is the media that causes all the problems. I always support any British team that that is playing, whether it is football, rugby or cricket, but I do get rather tired of hearing the 1966 saga dragged up everytime England are playing in either the European or World championships. I have worked with English people all my life, both here and abroad, have many English friends and have played football and rugby abroad where we had British teams that consisted of Irish & Welch as well as English, we always had a great time together, many laughs, drinks and good nights, where fun was on the agenda, not prejudiced towards each other in any way.
You were unfortunate porshiepoo to have met two bigoted idiotic women who have probably not been out of Wick or Caithness, never mind Scotland. We are not all like that, the gripe is at the media.
Hi there Porshie. Do you remember the school incident ??? The comment which i got ?? (We tend to stick together ) I will never forget that, nor will my kids, and that was from someone who was dep head of wick school !!!
peter macdonald
11-May-06, 17:17
Totally agree with Whitewater Golach et all...When it comes to England playing football some of the media in England lose all sense and shame ...and it is that fact not the English people .not their players ,not their coach who hack the rest of the Uk off Ever read the Sun etc whenever England play Argentina or more especially Germany ??? A few years ago the prominent German politician Helmut Schmitt wrote to the PM and put a letter in the Times complaining bitterly and quite rightly about the covertly racist headlines before a game between England and Germany I was cringing when I read them
So Im sorry if any Englsh folks are offended by such remarks as was heard in the Post Office but I cannot say it will get any better until the world cup is over and the media frenzy has died down
peter macdonald
11-May-06, 17:32
Paris i dont know what comments you received in Wick or want to as it aint my business but i suspect it was akin to some of the jibes about being Scottish i got from a tiny minority of illeducated Englishmen when i worked in Essex They made up abt 0.001% of the folks I dealt with In fact the worst comment i came across was from the Evening Standard who described an out break of food posioning in the central belt as "jocks with the runs"
So things are said like this all over the UK not just up here and I dont think they represent the true feelings of the locals where ever they are in the UK
PS my workmate who was from Ireland had to put up with a lot more "jokes" than i had to
i agree with it being the media am sick of hearing bout rooney not being able to play and its the end o the world and if its no at its theo wallcot getting in the squad wished they wud shut up about it
porshiepoo - 'fraid you will hear a lot more comments akin to the ones heard in Wick over the next few months (and years). The constant references to 1966, calling the English Team us (when reporting across the UK) and downright rudeness and ignorance shown in comments directed towards both the opposition and the teams own management (e.g. Graham Taylors picture as a swede) do not go unnoticed in the territories. So perhaps the comments you heard were only as offensive as the tripe we hear constantly?
Its got nothing to do with football or the English media. If Scotland had won the world cup do you really think we would have let the world forget it?. Unlikely! It's pure and unadulterated prejudice and its nothing short of racism.
Read the posts and you will see that they are not even aware of their prejudice. They probably see it as a bit of lightsome banter but as porshiepoos post confirms its far from that.
I was the same until a few years ago until I was challenged about the source of that banter. I didnt have any excuse when the attitude was stripped to the bare bones. It did me the world of good because it also helped me see the source of other prejudices I had formed as a child, growing up in an intolerant society. Homosexuality, religious discrimination, skin colour, all of them were laid bare.
I honstly believe that whats going on in this thread is very important for each individual to consider the real source of their resentment. On top of that, get over it, and you can all have have a fantastic team to support in the coming world cup. I for one will be shouting for England.
well for one aye wont be cheering on england if they won it it would be in the papers for monthson end and we wud hear of nothing else
I'm not English - I'm from Liverpool - of Irish and Welsh decendents _ and I live in Caithness. I love to watch all the sports wether it be Scotland winning the Calcutta Cup or England winning the ashes, or Carlisle getting promoted or Gretna getting to Europe****.
There will always be winners and losers - and we will always have something or other rammed down our throat by the media - and, of course, everything in the media is gospel.
Whatever you heard - and it sounded unpleasant - it is not representative of the people of Caithness. I should have come here years ago.
We all like winners - but have to look after the losers as well, but you will always have the bigot with the larger than life "Cakehole" to spoil it for others.
porshiepoo
11-May-06, 19:08
Its got nothing to do with football or the English media. If Scotland had won the world cup do you really think we would have let the world forget it?. Unlikely! It's pure and unadulterated prejudice and its nothing short of racism.
Read the posts and you will see that they are not even aware of their prejudice. They probably see it as a bit of lightsome banter but as porshiepoos post confirms its far from that.
I was the same until a few years ago until I was challenged about the source of that banter. I didnt have any excuse when the attitude was stripped to the bare bones. It did me the world of good because it also helped me see the source of other prejudices I had formed as a child, growing up in an intolerant society. Homosexuality, religious discrimination, skin colour, all of them were laid bare.
I honstly believe that whats going on in this thread is very important for each individual to consider the real source of their resentment. On top of that, get over it, and you can all have have a fantastic team to support in the coming world cup. I for one will be shouting for England.
My sentiments exactly!
If Scotland won a world cup I'm sure they'd be so proud of it however many years later that they'd want to let everyone know, and rightly so. England has a right to be proud of that achievement and IMO it appears that those who would rather it was never mentioned again are simply jealous of Englands football achievement and that in turns fuels the prejudice against them.
Don't get me wrong, I could care less about any football win but I know for sure that if Scotland won or Wales or Ireland (Hmmmm not sure if these have a team as I know zilch about football), I for one would be happy for them and certainly wouldn't expect them to sweep it under the carpet.
I think a real problem is that the football teams are split in this way. Why can't we just have team 'UK'? it would do away with a lot of the prejudices anyway. Incidentally how many of the players in these teams are actually born and bred players of that country? The prejudice seems especially irrational to me!
My main problem with what happened today is not what was said, I know that sort of thing goes on everyday, and if I'd overheard it in the street by passersby I probably wouldn't have been so bothered.
It was the fact that these two women were being so obviously prejudice whilst working in a public enviroment and seemed to have no concern about who was there or who they were offending. I actually felt quite sorry for the lady that served me cos she was English too! What a lovely enviroment to have to work in!
Its got nothing to do with football or the English media. If Scotland had won the world cup do you really think we would have let the world forget it?. Unlikely! It's pure and unadulterated prejudice and its nothing short of racism.
Read the posts and you will see that they are not even aware of their prejudice. They probably see it as a bit of lightsome banter but as porshiepoos post confirms its far from that.
I was the same until a few years ago until I was challenged about the source of that banter. I didnt have any excuse when the attitude was stripped to the bare bones. It did me the world of good because it also helped me see the source of other prejudices I had formed as a child, growing up in an intolerant society. Homosexuality, religious discrimination, skin colour, all of them were laid bare.
I honstly believe that whats going on in this thread is very important for each individual to consider the real source of their resentment. On top of that, get over it, and you can all have have a fantastic team to support in the coming world cup. I for one will be shouting for England.
Aye you'll be supporting England you say, does that not make You predjudiced? For heavens sake man, get a grip, its only football we are talking about here. A sport, not Global Warming, Famine in Ethiopia, or a threat of being overrun by radical homosexual Islamic fundmentalists, who may be colour blind. ITS Football a game, get a life Gleeber come off your Holy Willie soap box, and join the rest of humanity.
Aye you'll be supporting England you say, does that not make You predjudiced? For heavens sake man, get a grip, its only football we are talking about here. A sport, not Global Warming, Famine in Ethiopia, or a threat of being overrun by radical homosexual Islamic fundmentalists, who may be colour blind. ITS Football a game, get a life Gleeber come off your Holy Willie soap box, and join the rest of humanity.
well said golach. i like a lot of england players but the english media does my head in. during the last world cup was there not panic about david beckham this year its wayne rooney.
To be honest, the English media have been bringing this up for 40 years now. I'm tired of it now. I've only been alive 23 years!
I actually hope they don't win it. Not because I don't like the English. I just can't be bothered with the media hype that will follow it. If the press could keep quiet, then I wouldn't mind it so much.
landmarker
11-May-06, 22:41
I'm not surprised ther eis some resentment. I'd happily take it on board and try to tackle it with humour.
The Scots have every right to be fed up of England's '66 and all that. It wasn't too much of a big deal down here back then. I was a paper boy and actually left the telly as extra time started to go and do my paper round - and I was a football fanatic! Only the passage of time and the growth of football as a media love interest in the meantime has highlighted that 'ancient' victory. We were the home side after all. most host nations do very well in the competition. England were not an attractive side to watch back then, they seldom have been since either.
When I finally move up there (somewhere) I'll expect about 50% resentment & will live with it. If it's just the football team they're slagging off I'll rest easy.
I think I'd have mentioned Scottish goalkeepers or some similarly daft talking point. They'd have sneered behind me back of course but am I bothered?
kwbrown111
11-May-06, 22:44
Sorry no sympathy. england go on about 66 and football. should hang there heads about what they did in the clearances which in many quarters in engerland they keep bringing up if they realise you're scottish.
kwbrown111
11-May-06, 23:02
By the way i'm not prejudiced or racist just stating what i've seen and heard
Its got nothing to do with football or the English media. If Scotland had won the world cup do you really think we would have let the world forget it?. Unlikely! It's pure and unadulterated prejudice and its nothing short of racism.
Read the posts and you will see that they are not even aware of their prejudice. They probably see it as a bit of lightsome banter but as porshiepoos post confirms its far from that.
I was the same until a few years ago until I was challenged about the source of that banter. I didnt have any excuse when the attitude was stripped to the bare bones. It did me the world of good because it also helped me see the source of other prejudices I had formed as a child, growing up in an intolerant society. Homosexuality, religious discrimination, skin colour, all of them were laid bare.
I honstly believe that whats going on in this thread is very important for each individual to consider the real source of their resentment. On top of that, get over it, and you can all have have a fantastic team to support in the coming world cup. I for one will be shouting for England.
Got to disagree gleeber ma mate, if memory servers did the english media have an england and germany thing going on a couple of years ago with Stuart Pearce as a "tommy" and some german player as the enemy?
It is over the years of hearing how great Banks save was, Moores tackle on Pele etc. Newspapers and announcers are always harping on about "key players" and they themselves treat Scottish football as a joke.
Media in England really brag up there own sports may it be football, cricket, rugby or synconised swimming.
Saying that, I do follow the football and a wee bet will be put on England.
Sorry no sympathy. england go on about 66 and football. should hang there heads about what they did in the clearances which in many quarters in engerland they keep bringing up if they realise you're scottish.
The Duchess of Sutherland was Scottish unless Sutherland has moved recently and it was only by her marriage to Lord Stafford that that he obtained lands in Sutherland and eventually became Duke of Sutherland.
He was already one of the wealthiest men in Britain and needed the income from the Sutherland Estates as much as the Duke of Westminster needs my income. Sellars Loch and Young were all Scots and the thugs they used to effect the Clearances were from Inverness, if I remember correctly.
When they were finally brought to "Justice" for their acts it was a Court in Inverness which absolved them of wrong doing.
I wonder why there isn't as much fuss over the Seaforth Highlanders decending on my home town in the North of England in 1842 and firing on and killing unarmed people demonstrating to stave off starvation?
Don't worry, I promise not to hold that against all Highlanders, it hardly seems worth the effort.
The "Clearances" were already underway in the Highlands and the only part of the Highlands under the Duke's control was two thirds of Sutherland only.
The rest of the Highlands, by far the greatest part was under the control of Clan Chiefs and it was they who did most of the Clearings.
It's always nice and convenient when the blame can be pushed onto "Them" and shifted from "Us". The plaintive cry of, "It was nae me!" is always handy if you can get away with it!
Oh yes, and Football. I won't mention the Faeroes. However, 1966 and that Team winning.
The truth of the matter is that in order to prevent the far more skillful teams of another Continent walking away with the World Cup. And more especially to stop a team playing in Yellow and Blue taking it home to keep it was decided that they should be taught a lesson about what football was really about. "Never mind the ball, kick the player!" and, believe me, Nobby Stiles was quite gentle when compared with some of the tackles made by players from the European (and that includes England) Teams. Skill was out, thuggery was in!
And the fact that the games were played in England might just have helped a little bit.
(And I didn't even mention the Germans or the War! [lol])
Afraid there is a very vocal, very small minority of 'outsider haters' around here, most of whom have never ventured beyond the borders of Scotland.
how true, kenimac.
Some people have no idea how upsetting it is hearing comments similar to thread mentioned. If people could try to be more empathic towards 'outsiders' then they may feel more welcome in this part of Scotland.
PS Orgers please dont post threads which could upset people ( think first before posting).
how true, kenimac.
Some people have no idea how upsetting it is hearing comments similar to thread mentioned. If people could try to be more empathic towards 'outsiders' then they may feel more welcome in this part of Scotland.
PS Orgers please dont post threads which could upset people ( think first before posting).
Thats the whole point. It's not about the fun and the barter that Golach and his non racist mates will wash down with a swig of fermented hay, it's about the effect, that ignorance, will have on others.
I dont take my references from the media, although the media is a powerful mind controller. Most of the non racists on this thread, have already pointed the finger at the media as the cause of their discrimination.
I'm not prejudiced because I support England when Scotland have been duffed out of a tournament. I'm a football supporter. I would be prejudiced if I had a pre concieved idea that some team or another didnt deserve to win because of some reason or another. Like Argentina or Germany because we fought them in wars, or England because they are so proud of what was a great team effort in 1966. All that stuff has nothing to do with football, but with ignorance of the mechanisms that drive us as human beings.
Just because the English media may be prejudiced at times ac, doesnt mean I have to follow suit. That being said, I am as prejudiced as the rest of you but make a conscious decision to discover why. Some of you are always whining on about the state of the world and complaining about the youth of today. Have any of you ever considered the your own covert ignorance is as much responsible for other peoples behaviour as the anti-social behaviour of others?
Its difficult enough living in modern times without jumped up little dictators taking it upon themselves to decide whats right and wrong when insulting other nations, whether in fun as golach seems to think, or as our resurected regular racist Landmarker will so eloquently put forward, when he admits its water off a ducks back for him.
Its not water of a ducks back for everybody chaps. Wise up and see that the passion some of you call football support, is nothing but an outlet for your covert and creepy hang-ups.
The previous post mentions
'Its difficult enough living in modern times without jumped up little dictators taking it upon themselves to decide whats right and wrong when insulting other nations, whether in fun as golach seems to think, or as our resurected regular racist Landmarker will so eloquently put forward, when he admits its water off a ducks back for him.,
does that not also refer to the English media...............?? or just to us Scots??
This argument will always rage on
The English media are absolutely horrendous when it comes to football, the FA's choice of new manager for the English squad turned the job down, purely on the fact that he had up to 70 English press camped on his doorstep before he had even made a choice...... shame on them... the FA should have publicly condemned them.
Graham Taylor as a turnip.....
references to the Wars when England play Germany.....
The media were/are quick to jump on players 'indiscretions' in their personal lives (read News of the World etc on Sundays), but then hoist them up to above holiness when they are picked for playing for their country. The melee at the moment covers the young 17 year old and his girlfriend, (her pic was in the Daily Star 3 times yesterday!), with some people projecting SHE could earn up to 4 million this year. COME ON!!!!!!
Of course, I'm not saying the original posters experience should have happened, and I'm saddened that it did, I just wish that the media would take into account that there is another 3 countries that watch television and read the newspapers that are circulated.... I'm sure that if the English supporters had to read and watch how good the French were every day (and how they were going to Win!) and every time they opened a newspaper the attitude may be the same...............??
how true, kenimac.
Some people have no idea how upsetting it is hearing comments similar to thread mentioned. If people could try to be more empathic towards 'outsiders' then they may feel more welcome in this part of Scotland.
Sticks and stones springs to mind............. I'd be more worried if it became physical........as it did with my son when he was living and working up here......and he is Scottish.
As to Scotland crowing interminably and boringly about past successes......we'd need to have the same access to the UK-wide media as English commentators do.
And I hope fervently, porshiepoo, that there is never a UK football team.........in fact, didn't I read somewhere that the Olympic Games team is to be English and not a UK one?
pultneytooner
12-May-06, 13:24
What about the guy who got a parcel from vodafone with his name, local address and postcode written as normal but instead of scotland it said Jockland. A bit of banter is acceptable as it is mostly harmless but messing around with mail addresses is just plain wrong and whoever was responsible should be sacked without hesitation.
As for porshiepoo, I think you are being too sensitive as I don't think they'd do this just because you were within earshot but hey, just because your paranoid doesn't mean they are not talking about you.;)
Got to disagree gleeber ma mate, if memory servers did the english media have an england and germany thing going on a couple of years ago with Stuart Pearce as a "tommy" and some german player as the enemy?
It is over the years of hearing how great Banks save was, Moores tackle on Pele etc. Newspapers and announcers are always harping on about "key players" and they themselves treat Scottish football as a joke.
Media in England really brag up there own sports may it be football, cricket, rugby or synconised swimming.
Saying that, I do follow the football and a wee bet will be put on England.
I think that was the legendary "Achtung Surrender" headline from the Daily Mirror, if I remember correctly it was Stuart Pearce and Teddy Sheringham with helmets on. The Sun went with the much more tasteful "Let's Blitz Fritz" at the time.
I am not sure whether the English nation actually has a paranoid inferiority complex that seems to show itself through an obsession with sporting success, particularly against countries they have had conflicts against in the past (probably quicker listing the countries they have been at peace with ;o) )
Even with the best will in the world, I find it hard to get behind England due to the jingoistic and xenophobic output from the media. In the last World Cup Final it only took the commentators 30 seconds to mention England, despite the fact that the game was between Brazil and Germany!!
I think that in the original poster's situation, if I had been upset by what was said I would have tackled them about it. It seems a particularly British thing to say nothing at the tome but then put pen to paper as "Irate, Tunbridge Wells" or "Furious, Hemel Hempstead". Perhaps if more people were pulled up about their idle talk then they might show more discretion in the future.
By the way, I wouldn't touch England for a bet. They are as low as 11/2 to win the World Cup, 40 years without a win makes that an appalling bet, particularly given their injuries.
porshiepoo
12-May-06, 15:26
It seems there are many differents angles on this but the one thing that really sticks out is the resentment that there still is between the English and Scots for things that happened many many years ago.
The atrocities of the clearances, battles etc will never be forgotten - on either side - but seriously, should we be letting history get in the way of the future?
If the papers were full of a german win or a win from any other team in fact, people wouldn't care, it's simply because the team happens to be England. And why this resentment? Because of things that happened in the past, that we have no control over now. It's ridiculous!
Engand did some terrible things in the past, no one denies that, but Scotland also did. It wasn't quite so one sided. Whatever the damage done there is nothing any of us can do about it now, we can't change what happened but we can learn from it - wouldn't it be a sin not to?
The way of the times back then dictated the way people were, it just so happens that people from ALL counties of the UK were a tad more barbaric than we would put up with now. But that was then and this is now.
Keep history alive by teaching it to our kids in school and at home in stories but for gods sake show our youngsters that we can move past these age old events and can be united as a nation - Great Britain.
Football nowadays just seems to be more and more of a hooligans excuse to exact revenge on prejudices that their parents have bought them up to cling on to. It's wrong!
I say do away with england, Scotland etc etc and become just Great Britain.
porshiepoo
12-May-06, 15:34
I wonder why there isn't as much fuss over the Seaforth Highlanders decending on my home town in the North of England in 1842 and firing on and killing unarmed people demonstrating to stave off starvation?
Don't worry, I promise not to hold that against all Highlanders, it hardly seems worth the effort.
Good point!
I think what the Scottish people who are prejudice toward English fail to understand is that the English don't need to live in the past and harp on about the atrocities that were carried out by either country. We really don't!
The "Clearances" were already underway in the Highlands and the only part of the Highlands under the Duke's control was two thirds of Sutherland only.
The rest of the Highlands, by far the greatest part was under the control of Clan Chiefs and it was they who did most of the Clearings.
It's always nice and convenient when the blame can be pushed onto "Them" and shifted from "Us". The plaintive cry of, "It was nae me!" is always handy if you can get away with it!
Fear!
IMO England instilled a fear into the scots and unfortuantely some still feel the need to justify this now irrational fear by over playing the part England actually part in these historic events.
Maybe the English dont harp on about atrocities but they harp on about winning the 1966 world cup,
porshiepoo
12-May-06, 15:52
Maybe the English dont harp on about atrocities but they harp on about winning the 1966 world cup,
Surely it's better to harp on about the positive things in life rather than the negative????????
Good point!
I think what the Scottish people who are prejudice toward English fail to understand is that the English don't need to live in the past and harp on about the atrocities that were carried out by either country. We really don't!
Not all of us Scots are prejudice towards English people,Porshie, I think the English are just as bad as the Scottish. Maybe the English don't harp on about the atrocities, but they do harp on about winning the world cup. Forgive me if i am wrong but by going on about something which happened 40 years ago is that not the English living in the past as well.
peter macdonald
12-May-06, 16:27
It seems folks are getting paranoid over a couple of remarks made over a football match I find it a bit difficult to understand why the people are so touchy about this
There is the element of anti Englishness in Scotland but there is also the same elements in England although it is now of a more random nature whilst previously it was against Irish people nowadays it seems to be against immigrants
What you have to remember that this stuff is exceedingly seldom taken to any length in Scotland Do you see settler watch signs on the roads ?? Do you see any any anti English graffitti around the towns?? do you know of any English people being passed over for jobs ?? Dont think so !!!!!! I dont like racism of any kind but a couple of chance remarks does not make this county racist
In comparison look at all those BNP posters all over Birmingham at the last council elections and all the less than savoury graffitti on the walls in Tower hamlets It made terrible reading
Its a good job we know that those idiots involved make up a minute element of the English population
So to all these folks from the south who have moved up here no need to put the wagons in a circle just yet ...the natives are harmless if a little noisy during football matches
highlander2222
12-May-06, 16:48
Porshie, its not the English people that most Scots that I know dislike, its the MEDIA and all the worst that comes out when we have this sort of thing rammed down our throats. i.e. 19 blooming 66!!!!! I love my English relations and my English pals a few I have met in here. BUT when the World Cup comes along, I change my nationality every time England plays, because I shout for the team that is playing England, once the World Cup is over sanity reigns, and I am normal again.
Porshie, please dont take it personal, its in the Sots genes :confused
Agree 100%
It seems there are many differents angles on this but the one thing that really sticks out is the resentment that there still is between the English and Scots for things that happened many many years ago.
The atrocities of the clearances, battles etc will never be forgotten - on either side - but seriously, should we be letting history get in the way of the future?
If the papers were full of a german win or a win from any other team in fact, people wouldn't care, it's simply because the team happens to be England. And why this resentment? Because of things that happened in the past, that we have no control over now. It's ridiculous!
Engand did some terrible things in the past, no one denies that, but Scotland also did. It wasn't quite so one sided. Whatever the damage done there is nothing any of us can do about it now, we can't change what happened but we can learn from it - wouldn't it be a sin not to?
The way of the times back then dictated the way people were, it just so happens that people from ALL counties of the UK were a tad more barbaric than we would put up with now. But that was then and this is now.
Keep history alive by teaching it to our kids in school and at home in stories but for gods sake show our youngsters that we can move past these age old events and can be united as a nation - Great Britain.
Football nowadays just seems to be more and more of a hooligans excuse to exact revenge on prejudices that their parents have bought them up to cling on to. It's wrong!
I say do away with england, Scotland etc etc and become just Great Britain.
I agree with you 100% Porshie, those that still harbour resentment need to get over it! I am Scottish, though not from Caithness originally. We moved up to Thurso when I was two years old, so I consider it my home town. I am what the locals called an "Atomic", because my dad was one of the many "outsiders" who moved up to Caithness to work at Dounreay, not long after it was first built. We lived in the "Atomic" housing estate, and for that I am thankful, because we had neighbours from all over the UK, both English and Scottish. Most of my primary school years were spent at Pennyland School in the housing estate, where the teachers were also from various parts of the UK, as well as the pupils. The local children from the Glebe and Scrabster also attended the school, once it was opened in 1962. Therefore I had friends who were both English and Scottish, atomic and non-atomic. It was a good blend, and we all got along, just as my parents did with their neighbours.
I haven't been to Thurso for a number of years, so I don't know if the term "Atomic" is still used for Dounreay workers who moved in from outwith Caithness, BTW.
Anyway, I hope the shop staff have been reading this thread, and that they feel suitably embarrassed by now. Even though it was football they were discussing, they should still have been sensitive to the fact that you are English, and may have taken the matter personally. I don't blame you for being upset!
Cedric Farthsbottom III
12-May-06, 20:26
Reality check is required me thinks.Lets do a wee backflash here.
Sitting in ma clasroom in primary school.The teacher talks about Scottish history.Yep,we have a cracking culture here in Scotland.Its centuries old.
Teacher talks about Bannockburn,Stirling Bridge,etc.All the folk in ma class including myself go Scotland......Ya beauty!!!!!!!!England......boooooo!!!!.What were we though,6-7-8-9-10 years old.Then ye go to Secondary School and ye get the rest of history.Ye think,wait a minute,how could we fight against the English one minute and then fight in their side as Britain in the World Wars.
So from Primary school where I thought England was a bad word,to Secondary where they didnae seem so bad after all.What are you supposed to think?
Here's ma suggestion.We're all British but see John Motson and Jimmy Hill and the likes when their biast comments about Davie Narey 'Toe-pokes'.....well they can meet me and Arthur Montford(in his tweed jaiket)anytime in Stirling.
P.s see in Braveheart when Edward I says,"The problem with Scotland is its full of Scots."
Was it just me or did anyone else shout at the screen,"Aye,and don't ye forget it.":lol: :lol:
I certainly don't think the situation is helped by people like a certain publicity seeking MSP trying to involve the Scottish Executive into a bout of Arm Wrestling with the BBC over the tune they have chosen for the World Cup.
I suspect that without his childish pot stirring no more than a handful of people in the whole of Scotland, never mind the Highlands, would have associated a modern adaptation of a tune more commonly sung as a Hymn.
The next time any of you hear the Hymn “Thine be the Glory” being sung in the Kirk just remember that the Minister has chosen it in order to deliberately cause offence to all Scots and especially the Highlanders.
The hymn is, in fact, the translation into English of a French Poem sung to a tune written by a German who eventually became British.
Then the said MSP has the audacity to moan about the BBC’s lack of pandering to multi-culturalism.
“Methinks he doth protest too much”, to quote a famous English Play-write or to quote a Scots Poet, “My Son, these maxims make a rule, An lump them ay thegither: The Rigid Righteous is a fool, The Rigid Wise anither;”
The best advice I can give to him and to those of that ilk is the follow that good old Lancashire advice of, “Get back in thi cheese, there’s a maggot missin’”
The tune was chosen as a link between the England Supporters and their German Hosts and I suspect that during the Competition it is far more important to avoid any animosity between the two sets of Supporters than to worry about a very tenuous link to the Duke of Cumberland two hundred and sixty years and twenty-six days ago.
Perhaps if those so affronted by the chosen tune were to show the same concern in ensuring the success of "Cuil Lodair Proiseact Cuimhneachain A’Bhlair" (I hope I've got the Gaelic right) then I for one might have a little more respect for their pompous posturing.
Besides that, it's not true that the English are stuck in the past.
"Lets hear it for the victors at Flodden!" ;)
landmarker
12-May-06, 20:41
..... or as our resurected regular racist Landmarker will so eloquently put forward, when he admits its water off a ducks back for him.
Its not water of a ducks back for everybody chaps. Wise up and see that the passion some of you call football support, is nothing but an outlet for your covert and creepy hang-ups.
A bit too much alliteration there Gleeber but I wondered if you had missed me.
There is nothing 'covert' about my 'hang ups' (I'd prefer prejudices) and 'creepy' is subjective. I find your all inclusive see no evil, see no wrong, welcome all, everyone is wonderful attitude a little creepy, not to mention
a mile off the mark. ( alliteration best done in two's). Are you on some kind of guilt trip for a closetted and blinkered upbringing?
landmarker
pultneytooner
12-May-06, 20:57
We all love the english, just don't mention '66 or the war.;)
For once on this subject I will try to be fairly serious and do my best to avoid my often warped but occasionally nearer the more truthful version of history.
I rather suspect that the biggest problem when it comes to the England Football Team is that the Home Championships were done away with.
If I remember correctly it was all about a broken cross-bar and a bit if missing white-washed turf. Well, that was the convenient excuse given. (I'm slipping back into my bad ways again)
At that time Scotland had a National Team that was not all that far behind England with the players it had. (Don't jump down my throat yet)
The Scots could certainly give England a run for their money and when England got the upper-hand or did well in some Competition it wasn't too long before Scotland had the chance to take them down a peg or two and often did.
There was always the opportunity for one set of fans or the other to have their share of Glory.
Since the end of the Home Championships Scotland has never really been in a position to put a stop to England's gloating. 66 would have nothing like the same annoyance if Scots fans could point the finger and say, "Aye, but who thrashed you 3-0 last year." That's what used to happen and even Wales and Ireland used to do it on occasions.
I'm sure that had the positions been reversed and England fans had spent 40 years having their noses rubbed in it with no opportunity for revenge then they would feel very much the same. I know I darned well would! [evil]
Perhaps if you let us have our Penalty Spot back for that never ending saga of the New Wembley, which is now starting to replace Holyrood as an embarrassment, we might just be persuaded to let you have the odd game or two with us. (But only if you let us win!) [lol]
Well, I very nearly succeded in being serious.
pultneytooner
12-May-06, 22:03
For once on this subject I will try to be fairly serious and do my best to avoid my often warped but occasionally nearer the more truthful version of history.
I rather suspect that the biggest problem when it comes to the England Football Team is that the Home Championships were done away with.
If I remember correctly it was all about a broken cross-bar and a bit if missing white-washed turf. Well, that was the convenient excuse given. (I'm slipping back into my bad ways again)
At that time Scotland had a National Team that was not all that far behind England with the players it had. (Don't jump down my throat yet)
The Scots could certainly give England a run for their money and when England got the upper-hand or did well in some Competition it wasn't too long before Scotland had the chance to take them down a peg or two and often did.
There was always the opportunity for one set of fans or the other to have their share of Glory.
Since the end of the Home Championships Scotland has never really been in a position to put a stop to England's gloating. 66 would have nothing like the same annoyance if Scots fans could point the finger and say, "Aye, but who thrashed you 3-0 last year." That's what used to happen and even Wales and Ireland used to do it on occasions.
I'm sure that had the positions been reversed and England fans had spent 40 years having their noses rubbed in it with no opportunity for revenge then they would feel very much the same. I know I darned well would! [evil]
Perhaps if you let us have our Penalty Spot back for that never ending saga of the New Wembley, which is now starting to replace Holyrood as an embarrassment, we might just be persuaded to let you have the odd game or two with us. (But only if you let us win!)
Well, I very nearly succeded in being serious. Well jaws, don't forget the boys of 67.[lol]
Cedric Farthsbottom III
12-May-06, 22:08
Well jaws, don't forget the boys of 67.[lol]
Pultneytooner,remember King Kenny scoring against Ray Clemence.
The nicking o' the penalty spots o' Wembley.Pure genius.Could only have been the Tartan Army.:lol:
Bingobabe
12-May-06, 22:17
Dont care much for football but when scotland win im fair chuffed for them.Most of my family are either welsh or english or orcadian so cant say im prejudice but i have come across it a few times myself its not nice.
footie chick
12-May-06, 22:33
I love English football [i'm a TOFFEE] but I cant be doing with 19** being brought up every international game. I am not racist but I must admit I do hate the Media/press/commentators that bum them up all the time and I sick of hearing that they've lost already cos of Rooney and Owen {Come on Wallcot show them what ur made of}
Porshiepoo is it any wonder ROYAL MAIL is in the state its in if thats a major topic of conversation shouldn't they be making sure all the letters that have gone missing are delivered?:mad:
pultneytooner
12-May-06, 22:42
Was that the nutmeg, cedric?
Cedric Farthsbottom III
12-May-06, 22:47
Was that the nutmeg, cedric?
Aye,pure class.Hopefully Boydy and the boys will do the same tomorrow.
pultneytooner
12-May-06, 22:50
Hope it's not a false dawn but it looks like we may be getting a team to be proud of.:lol:
Pultneytooner,remember King Kenny scoring against Ray Clemence.
The nicking o' the penalty spots o' Wembley.Pure genius.Could only have been the Tartan Army.:lol:
I couldn't agree more and I've never heard of it being done by anyone else anywhere.
And what a fuss was made about it you would have thought the whole Stadium had been destroyed.
OK, so the celebrations got a little over enthusiastic but no lasting harm was done, (I believe the grass felt a little cut-up about it) and certainly there was no malice intended, the Scots fans were enjoying themselves far too much for that.
The English FA got all pompous and toffee-nosed then descended into a permanent state of "We are not amused!" and skulked off in a terminal sulk.
That's when they decided they were far to important on the World Stage to be bothering with you lot and couldn't find time to fit you in between their all so better class of competitors.
And what did they succeed in doing? Well, for forty years they have pranced about the World showing themselves up for the bunch of "Almost good enough", "Nearly made it" and "You must be joking" Second Raters that, in truth, they always have been.
66 they were there because they were the Host Country, 70 they were there because of they dubious "equaliser" in the final in 66 and since then they have just about managed to scrape into the World Cup by luck and the skin of their teeth. I can't think of one occasion when they have got to the final stages by a convincing display of superior ability.
Come on you Scots, do the decent thing. Cheer the England Team on.
That way you can truthfully claim that you encouraged the underdogs and can still be safe in the knowledge that you are certainly not going to see England succeed. :)
pultneytooner
12-May-06, 22:55
Ach, yur no bad fur an englishman, jaws.
Just because the English media may be prejudiced at times ac, doesnt mean I have to follow suit. That being said, I am as prejudiced as the rest of you but make a conscious decision to discover why. Some of you are always whining on about the state of the world and complaining about the youth of today. Have any of you ever considered the your own covert ignorance is as much responsible for other peoples behaviour as the anti-social behaviour of others?
Fair comment gleeber. It would be intersting to find out why there is such prejudice, but on the other side of the coin it goes two ways and most actions are a reaction to experiences and conjecture. Its in human nature to be defencive and to make judgement on people who judge you on either the way you speak, where you live or what history (may it be bad or good) there is between each other.
porshiepoo
13-May-06, 19:38
I agree that maybe I was a tad over sensitive about what I heard in the post office but only because I would defend caithnessians to the hilt when I've previously heard non - scots say how rascist scotland is -especially in the highlands I was told.
I could honestly say I'd never come across it so openly before and it kinda kicked me in the guts a bit.
It may only have been a conversation about football but the tone and meaning were extremely obvious.
Perhaps too much is made of a win that happened 40 years ago but Jesus christ - it's only football! It amazes me that a game which involves as much skill as kicking a ball from one end of the pitch to the other can incite such hatred between not only teams (some degree of resentment could be expected in individual teams and their supporters) but actual countries.
At the end of the day any preference between football teams should be kept where it belongs - on the pitch. It shouldn't be used as fuel to incite age old resentments of age old battles that should be part of history and nothing more.
More and more this world sees battles and conflicts between different cultures and races within the same country and it's no wonder that such madness is possible when there are people who just won't let the past stay where it belongs - the past!
As far as I am concerned I have no ill feeling toward the scottish, not even for anything that happened years ago. What happened happened, it was the way of the times, I can neither change it nor would want to but I think it's sad that those feelings that caused such anguish, death and horrors should be deliberately kept alive in this day and time to fuel a whole new generation of England or scotland rascists.
For those of you who hate the English constantly playing on a win 40 years old, pray that scotland beats them. Till then don't let jealousy be your excuse for hoping England are defeated.
over heard in groats shop today.two english ladies in the shop when one says to the assistant,also english,"its feels just like home up here,it's nearly all english voices working in the shops"
nuff said.
If youre worried just now, check this out :eek:http://www.sundayherald.com/56112
That link didnt come out right.......what did I do wrong? It did seem okay until I posted it.
Seems its okay now!
dunderheed
09-Jun-06, 09:05
talking of the home internationals , here's a usless peice of information for you. northern ireland one the last one.
on the subject of wembley 1977, here's more useless information, the actual wembley turf wasn't stolen by the tartan army ,it was repatriated as it was in fact grown on the irvine moors (the place where most clubs got their turf in the 70's) that part of the moors is now a housing estate known as bourtreehill(sp?).
another competition i enjoyed in my early years was the anglo-scottish cup,this tournament started off as the texaco trophy between the welsh and irish league teams , then became the anglo- scottish after the english and scots teams joined it. the trophy is now used as the english leyland -daf trophy.
dunderheed
09-Jun-06, 11:45
"and since then they have just about managed to scrape into the World Cup by luck and the skin of their teeth. I can't think of one occasion when they have got to the final stages by a convincing display of superior ability."
bit harsh jaws considering they only lost one match in qualifying for this years finals
heretodaygonetomorrow
09-Jun-06, 16:29
I had hoped that this thread would not raise its ugly head again ,but as it has I feel compelled to make a comment.Forgive me for it is a trifle long so here goes...
I don't want to add fuel to the fire but I don't see how I can make it worse.
Yes I was one of the women who had a conversation about football in my place of work, had we realised that there was someone still in the office we would not have carried on with our private if not very discreet conversation.
Now the topic we chose was the previous evenings football match in which Middlesboro' unfortunately did not do well. Anyway that's beside the point. We remarked that for us we felt that the commentators were spoiling things by forever harping on about England ( Yes we were referring to THE ENGLAND FOOTBALL TEAM, and only them) There is no doubt that we laughed at their ridiculous remarks about ' its us against the world 'and yes I was the one who dared to suggest that as it was 40 years ago, it was time for them ( still meaning the commentators, although I can see now how it may have come across differently to someone who was just listening in ! ) to get over it.
We made no reference what so ever to English people or to them being 'incomers','outsiders' or anything else of that ilk. Not that that is the terminology we would use to describe anyone who believes that Scotland is the best place for them to make their home!
Now carrying on, we did state that we would not be supporting England ( again let's make this clear THE ENGLAND FOOTBALL TEAM ), and laughing said that we would happily change our nationality nightly to avoid supporting them. We also during this conversation stated that whatever happened during the world cup we were not going to let it stop us from supporting other teams from across the border and in particular that we were looking forward to cheering on Arsenal in their forthcoming game.
On any other day had it been Scotland ( and by that I mean THE SCOTLAND FOOTBALL TEAM )who had been playing and had had one of their usual disasters then yes we would have been laughing about that, because we don't take it seriously.Would we still have been regarded as racist because of it?
At the end of the day it was what it was, a joking light-hearted blether during a lull in an otherwise hectic day about football by two colleagues and nothing more.I'm upset that it has been perceived as something nasty, I can only assure you it wasn't
I also want to make it perfectly clear to all who felt obliged to make a comment in response to Porshiepoo that we in The Post Office in Wick treat with respect, and look after our customers to the best of our abilities and at no time do we ever serve a customer differently due to their accent.Nor do we stand gossiping ( we just don't have the time ) while ignoring queues and take exception to that remark.If we do spend a little longer with some of our senior or more vulnerable customers then who are you to give us a hard time for it ! Rant over.
May I just add that in reading some of the remarks posted on the org that it is important to remember that there are at least two sides to every conversation and you really should not be so quick to jump on the bandwagon with only the view of one person.
I still won't be lending my support to the England Football Team ( surely that's not a hanging offence ! ) and I am sure that they will do perfectly well without it !!!! and as you say, it is only a game and thankfully in this country we are all free to support whoever we want.
Good on you heretodaygonetomorrow. Im not going to comment on the rights and wrongs on this whole post. What i will say is it takes a good person to put there name on the end of a post like this and hold there hand up and say i was that person. And it also does illistrate that there are 2 sides to everything. Good on ya.
There is always two sides to a story, Thanks heretodaygonetomorrow for sharing that.:D Mention England and a few cages get rattled.:roll:
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