View Full Version : Deirdre Mackay
Tom Cornwall
16-Feb-10, 16:06
I think we should start a 'Support Deirdre Mackay' campaign. In this financial climate, we should cut back on things we don't need and support things we do. We definatately don't need to be spending on all things Gaelic (we've done without it for hundreds of years or more), to the detriment of the services we do need. Like "should we shut school swimming pools or should we put up some more Gaelic road-signs"....I think any-one with the least bit of common sense should know the answer to that..and don't keep on about our heritage...we lived in Caithness nearly all our lives and you could count the number of people we knew, who were interested in the Gaelic, on the fingers of one finger...it seems to be being forced upon people who are not inerested.
I think we should start a 'Support Deirdre Mackay' campaign. In this financial climate, we should cut back on things we don't need and support things we do. We definatately don't need to be spending on all things Gaelic (we've done without it for hundreds of years or more), to the detriment of the services we do need. Like "should we shut school swimming pools or should we put up some more Gaelic road-signs"....I think any-one with the least bit of common sense should know the answer to that..and don't keep on about our heritage...we lived in Caithness nearly all our lives and you could count the number of people we knew, who were interested in the Gaelic, on the fingers of one finger...it seems to be being forced upon people who are not inerested.
Yep and they are all Americans!
Count me in, I can't believe the hard time she is getting for this.
Gaelic is an easy target for a quick soundbite, as with all rhetoric it obscures the truth.
Highland council spent a grand total of £250,000 from its budget on Gaelic last year much of this going to support fetivals such as blas and feisean an gaidheil which generate important sources of income and jobs for small communities around the Highlands.
(this excludes primary school expinditure - for the simple reason that the kids need to be educated whotever the languauge and there is no additional cost to the council whether it is Gaelic or English - in fact the council makes a net profit from the allowance provided by the Scottish Governemnt for Gaelic Medium!)
This financial support has already been slashed in last weeks budget meeting.
When the council has to achieve saving of 12 million next year and more in the years to come - its pretty pathetic to lay the blame at Gaels door.
I suggest Deirdre Mackay starts studying the Council budget if she wants to properly represent her constituents, instead of taking cheap shots at a fragile community.
Deirdre used to be our local councillor and was an excellent one at that. If you needed her help on anything she gave 110%. I admire her for speaking up about the waste of money on all things Gaelic that nobody wants or needs. She has said what loads of other councillors don't have the guts to stand up and say. Good for her.
She is Labour ward councillor for East Sutherland and Edderton, and daughter of Councillor John Rosie
http://www.northern-times.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/7043/Councillor_slams_spending_on_Gaelic_education.html (http://www.northern-times.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/7043/Councillor_slams_spending_on_Gaelic_education.html )
wickscorrie
16-Feb-10, 22:08
what would i spend that figure on a language a minority speak and the majority dinna really give a fig about, or the state of our schools which the majority use, council cuts by the million hmmm!
sorry but i would cut the gaelic budget and not think twice about it. no amount of money will revive something if it has reached is natural end
so yes i would back deidre for saying what the majority of us are thinking
Deirdre has a point about the transport issue. There are kids forced to walk along an unlit country road with no pavement while Gaelic medium kids get a taxi as a right. Just look what that policy is costing us all.
2.3 The cost of transporting children to Gaelic Medium education units is included within the monitoring statement to provide Members with an understanding of the total expenditure associated with the provision of Gaelic Medium education. The current projected expenditure for school transport is £0.426M which is £0.047M higher than the budget figure provided. The Revenue monitoring report to the Gaelic Committee on the 15 April 2010 will provide a route by route analysis of the school transport estimated expenditure figure in order to better understand the reasons for this over-spend. The increase can be partially explained by the higher than anticipated annual contractual uplift in January 2010, 4.48% as opposed to the 2.5% inflation increase provided for in the budget.
source: http://www.highland.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/9557CCF4-9D80-4BE9-B7DF-87218AD4974E/0/Item2G0110.pdf
Total Highland Council expenditure on school transport is £11.6 million.
Total expenditure for Transport for Gaelic Medium pupils is £0.4 million.
This equates to approx. 4%.
The total number of primary pupils in the Highlands is apporx 16,000
The total number of Gealic Medium primary pupils is 800.
This equates to approx 5%
The upshot is that proportionately less is spent on trasnport for Gaelic Medium pupils.
Therefore Deirdre arguments do not stand up to scrutiny.
Gaelic is just being used to whip up a bit of publicity for herself.
Total Highland Council expenditure on school transport is £11.6 million.
Total expenditure for Transport for Gaelic Medium pupils is £0.4 million.
This equates to approx. 4%.
The total number of primary pupils in the Highlands is apporx 16,000
The total number of Gealic Medium primary pupils is 800.
This equates to approx 5%
The upshot is that proportionately less is spent on trasnport for Gaelic Medium pupils.
Therefore Deirdre arguments do not stand up to scrutiny.
Gaelic is just being used to whip up a bit of publicity for herself.
How many of these "Gaelic Medium" pupils speak gaelic as their FIRST language? I work with several people from the western isles, all of whom speak gaelic fluently, however none of them use it as a first language.
Anybody can spin statistics to suit their argument.
The Pepsi Challenge
17-Feb-10, 14:31
Weren't the Gaels meant to be at a protest in Inverness recently? Seems none of them could be bothered to turn up.
Anybody can spin statistics to suit their argument.
There is a diference between statistics and financial accounts.
The argument presented is that the Gaelic Community (including those who wish to send their children to Gaelic Medium Education) receive a disporportionate level of funding from the Council which is unacceptable.
This is not the case.
You may chose to argue that any money spent on Gaelic is not acceptable. However, there will be no saving to the council, the children will still have to attend a school and teachers will still need to be employed to teach them.
The argument only serves to remove choice from others because you cannot accept their right to hold an alterantive point of view to that of yur own.
There is a diference between statistics and financial accounts.
The argument presented is that the Gaelic Community (including those who wish to send their children to Gaelic Medium Education) receive a disporportionate level of funding from the Council which is unacceptable.
This is not the case.
You may chose to argue that any money spent on Gaelic is not acceptable. However, there will be no saving to the council, the children will still have to attend a school and teachers will still need to be employed to teach them.
The argument only serves to remove choice from others because you cannot accept their right to hold an alterantive point of view to that of yur own.
Just a thought. Are the Gaelic medium teachers able to command a premium salary?
Just a thought. Are the Gaelic medium teachers able to command a premium salary?
Follwoing is an extract from council report in Nov 2008.
"As outlined above there may be a number of reasons why recruitment into Gaelic Medium teaching is so low, including possible perceptions of increased workload and challenge.
One means of addressing these would be to provide financial incentives to attract new and ‘conversion’ GM teachers. Consideration has been given to directly rewarding GM teachers through enhanced salaries. Similar issues arise in English Medium teaching in certain shortage subject such as Technology, Home Economics etc. Any moves to address teacher shortages in this way have been rejected by the national negotiating bodies.
A similar issue in Scotland’s schools, attracting probationer teachers into ‘difficult to recruit’ locations, is being addressed through a ‘preference waiver’. Under this scheme, funded directly by the Scottish Government, newly-qualified teachers prepared to undertake their probationary year anywhere in Scotland are paid the additional sum of £6,000 in three instalments. This has recently been increased to £8,000. Similarly there are Distant Islands Allowances and Remote Schools Allowances. The principle being applied here is one of ‘market failure’, where it is difficult to recruit teachers for geographical reasons an additional payment is made by way of incentive.
Why keep fishing for worthy excuses to thrash the Gaelic Community..?
If you cant accept Gaelic, have the honesty to say it and stop trying to hide it behind some smokescreen !
Count me in, I can't believe the hard time she is getting for this.
While she may be getting a hard time she put herself up there to be 'shot at' by being a councillor. She will take the plaudits, the free meals and the expenses so she will have to take the 'brick bats' when the going gets tough. As they say ' if she cannot stand the heatshe should not be in the kitchen'.
Follwoing is an extract from council report in Nov 2008.
"As outlined above there may be a number of reasons why recruitment into Gaelic Medium teaching is so low, including possible perceptions of increased workload and challenge.
One means of addressing these would be to provide financial incentives to attract new and ‘conversion’ GM teachers. Consideration has been given to directly rewarding GM teachers through enhanced salaries. Similar issues arise in English Medium teaching in certain shortage subject such as Technology, Home Economics etc. Any moves to address teacher shortages in this way have been rejected by the national negotiating bodies.
A similar issue in Scotland’s schools, attracting probationer teachers into ‘difficult to recruit’ locations, is being addressed through a ‘preference waiver’. Under this scheme, funded directly by the Scottish Government, newly-qualified teachers prepared to undertake their probationary year anywhere in Scotland are paid the additional sum of £6,000 in three instalments. This has recently been increased to £8,000. Similarly there are Distant Islands Allowances and Remote Schools Allowances. The principle being applied here is one of ‘market failure’, where it is difficult to recruit teachers for geographical reasons an additional payment is made by way of incentive.
Why keep fishing for worthy excuses to thrash the Gaelic Community..?
If you cant accept Gaelic, have the honesty to say it and stop trying to hide it behind some smokescreen !
Wasn't looking to thrash the Gaelic community. I wasn't aware there was one in Caithness (not a tradition here, more Nordic) but I would object to the original point which was about spending money on Gaelic signage, when our ordinary funded services are likeley to be cut back. :)
fingalmacool
17-Feb-10, 17:42
Just a question or two maybe, does anyone know anyone who has no history to do with the Gaelic ie; ancestors/family, lived in a community that was Gaelic in origin want to speak this language, when my family moved to the mainland my eldest brother only spoke Gaelic, however school and community put paid to that and now he cant speak a word of it, i cant say that i have heard him say that he would like to learn it again. It seems that Gaelic was passed down through the family if they felt it necessary or had the time, so surely if there is a reason for learning ie community has a large contingent of Gaelic speaking people already, this would be a good case to teach it. But to throw it out to all and sundry, it will get lost to a high percentage just as french did, that is pupils going through the motions and forgetting it as soon as they leave the classroom door. Ive lived in Caithness all my life and cant remember hearing much of the tongue apart from my mother swearing at me when i bad:confused
I have no objection to the Gaelic language and I don't think it should be lost, but in the present economic situation there are more essential things to spend money on. Education in general is having it's budget cut along with care homes etc and the roads are in a dreadful state, especially after the recent snow and ice.
How many of these "Gaelic Medium" pupils speak gaelic as their FIRST language? I work with several people from the western isles, all of whom speak gaelic fluently, however none of them use it as a first language.
Anybody can spin statistics to suit their argument.
Why would anybody speak Gaelic as their first language when those around them don't speak it as their first language.........or do you suggest they take an interpreter around with them?
Seems a bit irrational to say that not using Gaelic in a non-Gaelic community out of politeness and ease of communication is a justification for saying it is not their first language.
My sister in law is from the Western Isles.......they spoke Gaelic at home, among the wider family, and in the community.......and she did not learn English until she started the school.......because Gaelic was forbidden, even in the playground. So her first language was Gaelic.
And when her parents visited, she spoke to them in Gaelic, on occasion......... when explaining something we said in English they did not quite grasp......but they spoke to us in English. Did that make it not their first language as well just because they spoke to us in English?
I am of the opinion that the point that Deirdre Mackay was trying to make was that a proportion of the money spent on Gaelic would have been better spent elsewhere. There are ESSENTIAL services everywhere being cut and they are spending money on Gaelic signs etc. etc. that AREN'T ESSENTIAL.
There's the old 'no Gaelic heritage in Caithness' line which I am 100% behind but that's not the argument, the point here is that it is money that would be better spent elsewhere. What next - will there be different signs in Inverness for the Poles, different signs in Lybster because the Groaters don't understand them?
I also feel that we have the Gaelic police coming out with "racism," "fragile community or "anti-Gaelic" war-cries just because someone dares question spending on Gaelic. It is like some members of the coloured communities in the Midlands, say boo about Pakistanis (or any other coloured culture) and next Joe Bloggs, the councillor, is accused of an anti-Pakistani campaign.
There is very little saving that Highland Council can be made by cutting expenditure on Gaelic.
There is no saving on education.
The small amount that goes towards supporting local events such as Blas and the Feisean supports jobs and remote communities - and which are traditional music events which are enjoyed by many people who are not Gaelic speakers.
Road Signs are not a part of Highland Councils budget.
Look at the other side of the equation - the Gaelic Language generates millions for the economy through tourism, sales of traditional music and other arts and culture related events. The benefits the Gaelic brings to the Highland Economy in particular vastly outway the paltry sums that are allocated in the Councils budget.
The council, local communities, the tourism industry would lose millions of pounds of income all for the sake of a few pennies.
By perpetuating this myth that Gaelic is only a burden on the economy - Deirdre Mackay is misleading her constituents, proposing a policy that makes no economic sense and will leave the Highlands in an even worse financial position and whipping up a nasty atmosphere of prejudice and intollerence.
There is no saving on education.
"the existing teaching budget for Gaelic-medium teachers in primary schools will be reduced by £176,000 in 2010/11 and by £88,000 in 2011/12 to align it with the formula for English-medium teachers."
taken from http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/7845/Grim_future_ahead_for_local_arts_sector.html
Elsewhere in Highland Councils budget reports;
"Non teaching staff entitlements are based on formulae contained within the approved Devolved School Management (DSM) policy. These formulae are based almost wholly on school roll figures and budget entitlements adjust in accordance with changes in roll bandings. A recent review of non-teaching staffing entitlements on a school by school basis high-lighted instances where budgets had not been adjusted to reflect reductions in school figures. This position will be rectified for the start of the new academic year in August 2010."
Savings £170,000 this year - £85,000 next year
As Gaelic medium school roles have been increasing over recent years while enlgish medium school roles have been decreasing -It would appear that that this has been to the benefit of English Medium.
This is all part of regular budget management - adjustments here adjustments there, in this insatnce its picking over pennies in an Education budget of over £250 million.
The adjustments have been made, everything is back in alignment, as I stated - Gaelic Does not receive a disporportionate level of funding from the Council.
wavy davy
19-Feb-10, 00:11
I also feel that we have the Gaelic police coming out with "racism," "fragile community or "anti-Gaelic" war-cries just because someone dares question spending on Gaelic. .
Totally agree. I read a couple of days ago that a councillor was demanding that Deirdre Mackay be forced to resign because she dared to say what the vast majority of people in Scotland think about the spending on Gaelic. £26M by the Scottish Government this year on promoting a language that a tiny minority speak as a second language. I just don't grasp the justification, particularly when, for example, people are dying in road accidents because roads aren't gritted due to cutbacks.
The Gaelic lobby try to make out that there's this inextricable link between the language and Scottish culture - lose one and we lose the other. Gaelic and its artifacts are a very small part of what I consider to be Scottish culture.
Go ahead and learn Gaelic/Spanish/ Cantonese if you want, write in it, sing in it, do what you want with it, but don't expect the 99% of the populace who don't speak it, and frankly don't care about it to subsidise you.
Stack Rock
19-Feb-10, 00:29
Totally agree. I read a couple of days ago that a councillor was demanding that Deirdre Mackay be forced to resign because she dared to say what the vast majority of people in Scotland think about the spending on Gaelic. £26M by the Scottish Government this year on promoting a language that a tiny minority speak as a second language. I just don't grasp the justification, particularly when, for example, people are dying in road accidents because roads aren't gritted due to cutbacks.
The Gaelic lobby try to make out that there's this inextricable link between the language and Scottish culture - lose one and we lose the other. Gaelic and its artifacts are a very small part of what I consider to be Scottish culture.
Go ahead and learn Gaelic/Spanish/ Cantonese if you want, write in it, sing in it, do what you want with it, but don't expect the 99% of the populace who don't speak it, and frankly don't care about it to subsidise you.
Well said.
PS - I think it was unelected Dave Thomson MSP who wanted Deirdre to resign
Stack Rock
19-Feb-10, 00:34
[Road Signs are not a part of Highland Councils budget.
Emmmm - so what budget pays for this? Is it not TECS roads budget?
Do what you want with it, but don't expect the 99% of the populace who don't speak it, and frankly don't care about it to subsidise you.
Gaelic is not subsidisesd by Highland Council - mores the pity - because the last/only economic study that was done should that for every one pound that was spent on on Gaelic, the economy benefits by £4.
Recent studies have also shown that it receives the support of teh majority of the Scottish population, which is further deomnstrated by the audience figures for BBC Alba - it all goes to show which side the silent majority are on.
Gaelic more than pays its own way and thats why it will continue to be supported.
Deirdre Mackay should be impeached - or what ever it is they do to councillors - because she mislead her constituents for cheap publicity.
Gaelic is not subsidisesd by Highland Council - mores the pity - because the last/only economic study that was done should that for every one pound that was spent on on Gaelic, the economy benefits by £4.
Recent studies have also shown that it receives the support of teh majority of the Scottish population, which is further deomnstrated by the audience figures for BBC Alba - it all goes to show which side the silent majority are on.
Gaelic more than pays its own way and thats why it will continue to be supported.
Deirdre Mackay should be impeached - or what ever it is they do to councillors - because she mislead her constituents for cheap publicity.
Come on Each, what's your agenda - are you very pro-Gaelic to the point of shooting down anybody that questions the topic, or are you staunchly anti-Deirdre? From your posts, my guess is that you are anti-Deirdre and using the Gaelic as a smokescreen for your witch hunt? If it is the latter, be brave enough to show yourself, stop hiding behind a pseudonym and stand up and be counted. Not brave enough??? Then leave the politics to others such as Deirdre who have the guts to stand up.
wavy davy
19-Feb-10, 12:44
Gaelic is not subsidisesd by Highland Council - mores the pity - because the last/only economic study that was done should that for every one pound that was spent on on Gaelic, the economy benefits by £4.
Recent studies have also shown that it receives the support of teh majority of the Scottish population, which is further deomnstrated by the audience figures for BBC Alba - it all goes to show which side the silent majority are on.
Gaelic more than pays its own way and thats why it will continue to be supported.
Deirdre Mackay should be impeached - or what ever it is they do to councillors - because she mislead her constituents for cheap publicity.
First of all, I didn't say that the Highland Council subsidises Gaelic, although they do, I said that the Scottish Government spends £26M a year.
I wouldnt be holding up BBC Alba as an indicator of popular support for Gaelic. The latest audience figures (not independently verified) are about 220,000, down from over 600,000 when it was launched. That means 160,000 people who don't speak Gaelic are watching it..........hmmm, why would you watch it then............football maybe.
Maybe you could enlighten us on the recent studies showing support for the language and the questions the study asked. If the question was - do you support the proliferation of the Gaelic language, I guess most people including me would respond "yes", why not, go for it.
If asked whether the taxpayer should support it to the tune of £26M I think the answer would be somewhat different.
... be brave enough to show yourself, stop hiding behind a pseudonym and stand up and be counted. Not brave enough??? Then leave the politics to others such as Deirdre who have the guts to stand up.
I object to public figures with responsibility for representing these communities, when they use of mis-information to promote prejudice and intollerence.
I would have hoped that to most people, this is a reasonable point of view, however....
this thread was started because it was proposed that Deirdre Mackay should be applauded and celebrated because she "stood up and told it like it was.."
So I didn't start this discussion and I'm sorry folks but she didn't tell it like it was and I have provide more than enough information to demonstrate that she didn't tell it like it was.
I support cultural diversity, I support rural highland Communities, I support Gaelic and I support parents right to send their children to Gaelic Medium Schools if that is their choice.
In this instance we are not discussing the contribution that Gaelic has made to the culture of Scotland, which is an entirely different debate.
So why do you want to know who I am ... ? Thats a much more sinister question.
Originally Posted by Each
“the Gaelic Language generates millions for the economy through tourism, sales of traditional music and other arts and culture related events. The benefits the Gaelic brings to the Highland Economy in particular vastly outway the paltry sums that are allocated in the Councils budget”.
Originally Posted by Each
“the last/only economic study that was done should that for every one pound that was spent on Gaelic, the economy benefits by £4”
:eek: Can you tell me the source of this information please?
The adjustments have been made, everything is back in alignment, as I stated - Gaelic Does not receive a disporportionate level of funding from the Council.
Back in alignment suggests things were out if alignment, i.e. there was disproportionate funding.
http://www.hie.co.uk/gaelic-language-development.htm
I believe an updated report is due to be published soon.
http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/cm42/4215/t4-19.htm
And just in case any one wants to be thorough - here is the amount spent on Gaelic during the same period.
Back in alignment suggests things were out if alignment, i.e. there was disproportionate funding.
Yes - going both ways - in small amounts, it would be very unusual if budgets always worked out exactly as projected.
So why do you want to know who I am ... ? Thats a much more sinister question.
Sorry to disappoint you but I am not remotely interested in who you are - what I said was don't hide behind a pseudonym when you are so vociferously anti-Deirdre Mackay.
http://www.hie.co.uk/gaelic-language-development.htm
I believe an updated report is due to be published soon.
Thanks for the information - The origins of the article you refer to is I believe; SPROULL, A. and ASHCROFT, B. 1993. The Economics of Gaelic Language Development: A Research Report for Highlands and Islands Enterprise and the Gaelic Television Committee with Comunn na Gàidhlig. GLASGOW: Glasgow Caledonian University. In academic and cultural terms this research is somewhat dated - 17 years. That's a long time in today's society.
It would be useful to see more recent research and if there is a new report I'd be glad to hear of it.
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