View Full Version : Arming the Police
Boozeburglar
10-Feb-10, 19:07
What do you think? I think it would be a huge mistake.
Thankfully it did not happen on the back of 11/9 or 7/7, so I don't see it happening soon.
It is a multiple answer poll, so you can answer all the answers you agree with.
northener
10-Feb-10, 19:17
I've voted for more armed response, although an increase in something along the lines of tasers may be more appropriate. I don't know.
I wonder what the Police Officers representatives think about arming all their members? Is this something the coppers on the beat actually want?
I've voted for more armed response, although an increase in something along the lines of tasers may be more appropriate. I don't know.
I wonder what the Police Officers representatives think about arming all their members? Is this something the coppers on the beat actually want?
I don't believe the Bobby on the beat wants the extra responsibility but I voted for more armed response units (with better training would be nice).
But its a tricky road. Not many wounded prisoners result, as they are trained to shoot and keep shooting until the threat is ended. Don't forget a .38 or .45 or 9mm are designed to kill-nothing else.
I've voted no, I believe that if the Police in this country were all armed it may have the effect of escalating violence, with more criminals arming themselves. It may be an option to increase armed response vehicles, however in todays financial climate it would be hard to justify funding unless there was a large increase in armed crime in the Highlands.
Boozeburglar
10-Feb-10, 19:33
My sister in law is a Met officer, and her pal was killed in action in the 90s, but she is against arming officers on the beat, on the basis they will be met with gunfire more often.
I've voted for more armed response, although an increase in something along the lines of tasers may be more appropriate. I don't know.
I wonder what the Police Officers representatives think about arming all their members? Is this something the coppers on the beat actually want?
Interesting survey by the Police Federation:
Firearms and the Police
The response rate was high and the message emphatic. An overwhelming majority of 82 per cent stated that they do not want all officers to be routinely armed on duty. This is particularly significant given that there has been almost no change in police officers’ opinions since we conducted the previous surveys in 2003 and 1995, and this despite the massive rise in gun related crime.
http://www.polfed.org/federationpolicy/DECD73C92CF542A18A45AF0BEDD53505.asp (http://www.polfed.org/federationpolicy/DECD73C92CF542A18A45AF0BEDD53505.asp)
coupled with the fact that not all police officers would be able to pass a firearms course, how then would they be employed within the police
northener
10-Feb-10, 19:45
Interesting survey by the Police Federation:
Firearms and the Police
The response rate was high and the message emphatic. An overwhelming majority of 82 per cent stated that they do not want all officers to be routinely armed on duty. This is particularly significant given that there has been almost no change in police officers’ opinions since we conducted the previous surveys in 2003 and 1995, and this despite the massive rise in gun related crime.
http://www.polfed.org/federationpolicy/DECD73C92CF542A18A45AF0BEDD53505.asp (http://www.polfed.org/federationpolicy/DECD73C92CF542A18A45AF0BEDD53505.asp)
Thanks for that, i'd guess no Government would be stupid enough to try and go against the majority opinion amongst serving coppers.
coupled with the fact that not all police officers would be able to pass a firearms course, how then would they be employed within the police
Good point, I had a friend who did well on the UKAE Police course but could not hack the firearms training. As he was told at the time "we have no option but to remove you from the course, you could become liability to yourself and those around you".
Harsh, but true words.
Not harsh at all, I don't think every one is mentaly capable of the mental stress that would be involved carrying guns every day.
The police at Dounreay are armed.
Boozeburglar
10-Feb-10, 22:28
coupled with the fact that not all police officers would be able to pass a firearms course, how then would they be employed within the police
This has not proved to be a problem in other countries where the force has gone fully armed.
My sister in law is so trained, but then she spent years working in The Mall and in various other locations on roof tops.
Boozeburglar
10-Feb-10, 22:42
The police at Dounreay are armed.
With good reason, but they are a special case, and their powers are limited.
Of course, Police at air ports are seen carrying some beautiful guns.
I love guns.
They are beautiful things, if you are into finely crafted mechanical devices, especially miniature ones.
Bit like those credit card sized eletronic scales.
;)
Bit like those credit card sized eletronic scales.
;)
How do you stand on them? [lol]
Whitewater
10-Feb-10, 23:09
I voted for more armed response units. Reason being, I don't think all Police Officers are capable of responding properly in confrontational situations. Our everyday Policeman is not selected because of his/her ability with a gun, it is a special selction process and they may then be selected for an armed unit. Some of our ordinary Police Officers armed with tasers have been a wee bit hasty at times, they were either too nervous or the power had gone to their heads and they wanted to show off.
Just see the recent case when a man was arrested for blowing his nose while his car was stopped in a traffic jam, think of that particular arresting Officer with a gun, and there are hundreds more just like him.
We need very calm and level headed policemen/women who are given the responsibility of using arms, they must also be deadly when called upon to use them. Seems not too difficult a qualification to have, but very difficult to do properly.
I think where armed Police are required, they are recruited with this included in their job description (for want of a better description).
In the UK only specially trained Officers are allowed to carry guns. In other Countries e.g. Canada & the United States the regular Officer carries a 40 calibre handgun with a 15 shell mag plus one extra mag.,and in the Police Cars(Cruisers) they carry pump action sawed off shotguns...capable of a 5 shot load.
If you are unable to carry or be proficient in the use of a firearm, you will not become an Officer.
Everyone is also trained in Tazer and pepper spray...
Learned once in the BB in Lybster I think....Be prepared!
Not contradicting you boozy old bean, I just can't find any stats online relating to countries that have recently armed their police, and gun crime figures, or training issues.
I would think your sister in law has gone through stringent selection processes, several weeks specialist training and further regular training to be an armed police officer.
The point I was trying to make has probably been put far more eloquently by whitewater. What happens to police officers who don't meet the criteria, or who don't want to be armed.
I am with you on guns being beautifull things in a strange sort of way though.
I say we should arm the police to the teeth. AK 47's, Magnum 44's, Tazers, pepper spray, Bugatti Veyrons with RPG launchers fitted behind the grille. Think your hard now Mr Criminal, think again. :eek:
Boozeburglar
11-Feb-10, 00:12
The material I saw that was relevant was shown to me by my sister in law, I don't know if it was online. She was doing research as part of her job.
She trained in riot control first, then became involved in protection of sensitive areas. She is very much against the idea of beat officers being armed, even with Tazers.
I am too.
Tubthumper
11-Feb-10, 00:15
Of course, Police at air ports are seen carrying some beautiful guns.
I love guns.
They are beautiful things..
What, those 'orrible MP3's they have??
L1A1 - now THAT was a weapon!
Boozeburglar
11-Feb-10, 00:17
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23761128-scotland-yard-in-disarray-over-gun-patrols.do
What, those 'orrible MP3's they have??
L1A1 - now THAT was a weapon!
I am fully trained on the SLR now that was a weapon (unless you wanted it on fully automatic or semi automatic) (Shows age) that Lee Enfield 303...
northener
11-Feb-10, 00:25
What, those 'orrible MP3's they have??
L1A1 - now THAT was a weapon!
+1 on that.
None of this relatively low calibre ponsing about. 7.62 cures all known ills.:Razz
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23761128-scotland-yard-in-disarray-over-gun-patrols.do
was that rust in the barrel of that MP5....
+1 on that.
None of this relatively low calibre ponsing about. 7.62 cures all known ills.:Razz
And yer can get the ammo soo easily!
northener
11-Feb-10, 00:29
I am fully trained on the SLR now that was a weapon (unless you wanted it on fully automatic or semi automatic) (Shows age) that Lee Enfield 303...
My dad was serving in East Africa with the Kings African Rifles when they trialled the (then) FN FAL (later the SLR) ...which had the fully 'auto' option.
His verdict on using it on 'Auto'?......
"It makes a bit of a mess":eek:
Tubthumper
11-Feb-10, 00:29
was that rust in the barrel of that MP5....
Yep! That Gat is stinking! Back in the day his feet wouldn't touch...
northener
11-Feb-10, 00:31
was that rust in the barrel of that MP5....
Oooohh...well spotted!
Civvies.:roll:;)
What, those 'orrible MP3's they have??
L1A1 - now THAT was a weapon!
Fine piece of kit that, when you hit someone with that, they stayed hit. Gonna start me reminicing with the LMG, SMG and the good old Charlie G..
was that rust in the barrel of that MP5....
It goes away as soon as you shoot a crim.
Tubthumper
11-Feb-10, 00:32
My dad was serving in East Africa with the Kings African Rifles when they trialled the (then) FN FAL (later the SLR) ...which had the fully 'auto' option. His verdict on using it on 'Auto'?......
"It makes a bit of a mess":eek:
Used the FAL on full auto at Vogelsang once - Christ!!
A wee matchstick addition to the SLR? - Nah, I'll stick with the single shot ta very much.
Tubthumper
11-Feb-10, 00:34
SMG? I never once hit a target with that thing, but it was great - no blanks (= no cleaning on exercise) and never got snagged in a cam net and nearly decapitated you.
Charlie-G: why did it feel like a kick in the plums for the no. 2?
My dad was serving in East Africa with the Kings African Rifles when they trialled the (then) FN FAL (later the SLR) ...which had the fully 'auto' option.
His verdict on using it on 'Auto'?......
"It makes a bit of a mess":eek:
And turns into an anti aircraft gun. I used to work with a Lt. Colonel from the Kings African Rifles. Trying to remember his name, will come back to me. :confused
Last time we used the SLR on the range, just after they were withdrawn from our unit, one of the guys turned up with a metal plate you inserted above the sear, converting it to full auto. Heard about the matchstick trick, never got it to wwork or see it work.
SMG was great for vehicle drills on convoys. Could hit the target on single shot, but forget it on auto.
northener
11-Feb-10, 00:45
Last time we used the SLR on the range, just after they were withdrawn from our unit, one of the guys turned up with a metal plate you inserted above the sear, converting it to full auto. Heard about the matchstick trick, never got it to wwork or see it work.
SMG was great for vehicle drills on convoys. Could hit the target on single shot, but forget it on auto.
SMG was great for us in the RN, for boarding parties they were ideal, short barrel, big mag and low velocity rounds. Chuck the hatch/bulkhead door open and hose the compartment down.
I wouldn't have wanted to be in the same compartment/deck as someone letting loose 7.62 rounds......:eek:
Kevin Milkins
11-Feb-10, 00:52
I voted no because I think it's the root of many crimes need addressing and not how to fight it.
It is the same with litter, if the streets are filling up with rubbish it seems our answer is to put more money and resources into clearing it up. If as a society we put more effort into educating about the effects of litter and make people responsible for there actions we would have a cleaner and more pleasant land to live in, without a load of uneccery cost.
The modern police farce has more money and resources spent on bureaucracy than crime fighting, and although there are plenty of bad people out on the streets that could do with a cap in the arse, I still don't think going down the American route is the way forward.
this is a hard one for me.. as i have seen both sides of this coin..in one way i want to say yes.. they should be armed.. as everyday more and more bad guys are armed. should they just be handed guns?
No..
any officer carrying a gun, should be trained to do it. both physically and emotionally.
at the end of the day when you hold a gun in your hand and point it at someone, you have made the decision to kill someone.
that is never an easy thing to do.. and a lot of times it can break a person.
i have known cops that have been on the force for 30 years that have never fired their weapon outside the range.. and i have seen rookies that have had to pull their guns the first year.. if you have a cocky officer whose gun is just an extension of their penis then yup you have problems.. but at the end of the day... we are sending out law keepers out to fight crime with no weapons. in a world where a gun is something every criminal has, maybe its time to look at the laws, and think about changing them.
in wick alone... how many people do you think have a leathal weapon?
now think about the bigger cities.. and what like they would be?
coming from the land.. with the rule.. right to bear arms.. it is dif. to not see the positive side of guns.. but at the same time i can see the british side, where they have gotten on for years without the need.
i honestly do not think there is a right answer.. unfortunatly its not black and white.
and theres a whole lot more to it that should our policemen be given guns.
I voted no because I think it's the root of many crimes need addressing and not how to fight it.
It is the same with litter, if the streets are filling up with rubbish it seems our answer is to put more money and resources into clearing it up. If as a society we put more effort into educating about the effects of litter and make people responsible for there actions we would have a cleaner and more pleasant land to live in, without a load of uneccery cost.
The modern police farce has more money and resources spent on bureaucracy than crime fighting, and although there are plenty of bad people out on the streets that could do with a cap in the arse, I still don't think going down the American route is the way forward.
A bit strict shooting peeps for littering?
Boozeburglar
11-Feb-10, 00:57
http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=658068#post658068
Started a new thread for people understandably wanting to discuss these beautiful machines.
I think where armed Police are required, they are recruited with this included in their job description (for want of a better description).
In the UK only specially trained Officers are allowed to carry guns. In other Countries e.g. Canada & the United States the regular Officer carries a 40 calibre handgun with a 15 shell mag plus one extra mag.,and in the Police Cars(Cruisers) they carry pump action sawed off shotguns...capable of a 5 shot load.
If you are unable to carry or be proficient in the use of a firearm, you will not become an Officer.
Everyone is also trained in Tazer and pepper spray...
Learned once in the BB in Lybster I think....Be prepared!
Weel said Sandyr1, the only one with experience, in both UK & Canadian polis, but its was the Boy Scouts motto "Be Prepared" lol
Boozeburglar
11-Feb-10, 01:01
this is a hard one ... if you have a cocky officer whose gun is just an extension of their penis then yup you have problems
Depends in what context you are interacting with them.
Depends in what context you are interacting with them.
Ask George Michael. [lol]
*blush* sir i am a lady *rotfl*
northener
11-Feb-10, 10:15
I wonder how we compare to other countries regarding levels of gun crime against levels of 'non-gun' crime?
In other words, we have nearly every single police force on the planet apart from ours armed at all times, does this act as a deterrent or ramp up the chances of the criminal being armed?
Anyone?
Thank you Mr G for stating the Scouts/ perhaps I was thinking of my youth when going to the dances in the Assembly Rooms in WEEEEK, or Thrumster or some wee hall, and being prepared....With a half bottle, a packet o' Fags and some midgie repellant for the 'togetherness' into the wee hours!.
From my travels, I think that things are as they should be. British Cops are where they should be...i.e. No Guns for the General Officer on the Street, but with resources for a 'just in case' scenerio, and other Countries with my two experiences being Canada & the US, carrying weapons....
I did see a comment on a gun being the extension of the penis..testosterone, and I do think that people who are in that train of mind should perhaps think before they speak.
I have dealt with the aftermath of shotings and serious use of force, and believe me there are no words to explain the grief that 'grown men and women' show when this occurs.
In North America all Police Officers carry guns, but not only do they have to be proficient thru extensive training, but also as part of basic recruitment they are psychologically tested.
Of course being human beings, there is always the exception and of course this is what one hears about........Just 1% of an organization of 30,000...like the Met Police...can have approx 300 questionable instances, but from what I can see having been somewhat involved with Cops around the World, we are where we should be.
Not perfect but the best we can be!
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