View Full Version : Spiritualists in the Far North - A Debate.
I have been commenting on a previous, now closed thread (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=97145), in which I asked certain people to come forward and debate with me and others about the Caithness Spiritualist Centre (Post no. 81).
I have found out from information they had posted on their own website that the CSC had raised money from door charges to psychic/medium evenings, any occasional event they may hold and from numerous raffles.
My main bone of contention was that the CSC had supposedly raised money for charity. This in itself is a good and noble thing to do. But when large amounts of money are taken in door fees, raffles and stores at the back of an event selling goods, how much money is given to charities after expenses are considered? If you blithely announce to all and sundry that charities will benefit from events, isn't it nice to be able to say in a forum, or your own website or some other way such as via a local news report that good works have been done? It seems not in this case. Which gives Spiritualism and Spiritualists a bad name. Not nice.
So reiterate my final comment in post 81 of the closed thread, viz: "Come on here, not to defend yourselves though you can if you wish, but to join in a lively debate."
Second thoughts I'll alter that to "Come on here, not to defend yourselves though you can if you wish, but start a lively debate.
I have many questions to ask, as have many others including those who have sent me pm's.
Is it unreasonable to ask for straightforward answers?
Debate.
Will you accept 3of 8 that your concept is an unaswerable one for some people,spiritualism comes a tad close to Godlyness an must therefore be in line for the same ritualistic dogma that persues all religions.Could go on here,but no worth the while. Just a comment on your thought an in no way dismissive of it.
wickoldschoolbreaker
09-Feb-10, 01:54
im new to this, ive never been to a spiritual church but know people who do go, and if they can give their congrigation some comfort in passing messages on then who are we to judge them? Many people follow this kind of religion and they earn their own money so can spend it in any way they see fit. im sure they are not being held to ransom, however if they claim to be giving it to charity then which charities are benefitting and if any are you would think that the people holding these events would be more than happy to devulge this information. Either way im sure most people dont care as long as it isnt their own money!:lol:
I suppose it's time I 'fessed up. I attend a spiritual church here in Hampshire, have done so for a few years. I'm not going to enter into a debate about my beliefs, I respect peoples rights to think it's all hogwash, I ask you to respect mine to believe in it.
Whilst I can't comment about CSC, I can tell you how the church is run that I attend, specifically, as I'm the treasurer, the way we distribute monies raised.
1. We don't charge an entrance fee.
2. We ask people if they would like to purchase a raffle ticket for £1 per strip of 5 tickets.
3. Out of a regular attendance of 30 people, we usually raise about £18-£22 in raffle ticket sales.
4. We have a collection plate going round at the end of service, this usually yields about £20-£25
5. The lady that deals with the refreshments gives me about £3 most weeks.
A good night is £50+ raised, most times it's around the £40 mark.
The hire of the hall is £20, the raffle prizes cost around £10 max., and the medium is paid £5 travelling expenses, some £10 depending on distance travelled. Twice per year we have a medium visiting who resides in Yorkshire, yet will only take £15 expenses! We also have some mediums who refuse to take any expenses.
The church has been running for 27 years, and for the first 12 years they always donated all profits to local charities. Since then all profits have been banked, including those from special fund raising events held about 4 times per year, a total which now stands at £11,000. The reason we stopped giving to local charities is to accrue enough funds to take out a long-term lease on a hall.
We don't have a committee as such, I'm the only one who actually has been given a 'title', although we have a small group that organises events, arranges visits by mediums, and does the tea/coffee making. None of us take any expenses. Anyone is free at anytime to ask to see the accounts.
As I said previously, I can't comment on CSC, I have no connection to them, and do not know anyone personally, connected to CSC.
For sure, there are charlatans within the spiritual movement, as there are in all walks of life, (or death :)), but I hope by providing you with the info of how my church is run, that you'll see that there are genuine spiritualists who do it to pass on their knowledge and give a better understanding of the movement, not to make a fast buck.
Boozeburglar
09-Feb-10, 03:44
Thanks for the info. Jox.
I have attended Spiritualist churches before, and one thing I noticed was that the mediums use the meetings to promote their private sessions/readings (paid) at the end of the meetings, talking to those interested as well as handing out leaflets, selling books, etc.
Is this perhaps why they are happy to appear for expenses only?
I know, personally, about 70 mediums, but am acquainted with maybe close on 200. Of the ones I know personally, about 20 of them never charge, though you have to go to their house, the others will take £10 up to £30, but that is for a group booking, as many as ten people, which can last as much as 5 hrs. Of the ones I'm acquainted, all visitors to my church, very few actually do private work, though I've no idea what they charge. In all my years of being involved in the spiritual movement, I can honestly say I've only seen 3 that I would consider 'charlatans'. I've never met a medium who has a book or business to promote. I've never charged anyone a single penny for all the readings I've done over the years, some have visited me at home, others I've met on evenings out etc., and when they find out what I do they usually ask for a quick reading. I've never charged and never will, what I have I share, it was given to me for free.
Metalattakk
09-Feb-10, 04:38
I'm now seriously thinking that Jox's account has been hacked. Surely...it must be true...
Mods! Check the IP addresses! :eek:
cuddlepop
09-Feb-10, 09:11
If there was a spiritulist church locally I too would attend.
Jox,your full of suprises.:eek:
If a certain religion brings you comfort what is wrong with that?:confused
When you attend church your asked for a donation so maybe if your bone of contention is that it is claimed in this case to go to charity and they wont disclose who it went too maybe they should just say its "running" costs,just like any other church.
Dog-eared
09-Feb-10, 12:47
Never judge someone until you have walked two moons in their moccasins.:grin:
By then your'e a long way away and your'e wearing their moccasins.:)
I liked Jox's post. I believe the spiritualist meetings here do charge but then the hall has to be paid for and they don't have a large attendance. I haven't visited the site, but are the mediums who come up also paid? I did go to one once, and the information given out seemed to be correct, but very sketchy. Not worth the five pounds fee to get in. Still, it was interesting.
It's just a load of mumbo jumbo!
If it was about organized religion the anti-god bashing squad would be all over this like a rash!
3 0f 8, i have been told that you were a member of the caithness spiritualist church and fell out with them and wanted to start your own spiritualist church. There are bad feelings between you i have been told. After reading your post on here which you started when the other one closed, i quite beleive it.
3 0f 8, i have been told that you were a member of the caithness spiritualist church and fell out with them and wanted to start your own spiritualist church. There are bad feelings between you i have been told. After reading your post on here which you started when the other one closed, i quite beleive it.
That's news to me Fran. And I suppose it's now news to you! I wonder who gave you that information? If it was a medium, well they done got it wrong. [lol]
For the CSC know not who I am and if they do, someone must have looked up my Org account details and told them, which is highly unlikely. I have NEVER been a member of the Caithness Spiritualist Church. For one, it's not a church that I would be able to attend in the physical sense as it doesn't have it's own building, as every other church has; secondly, I am a spiritualist. I would go to a church but not want to run one. That's like saying a Christian might not go to church because he doesn't like the vicar but would want to run his own.
Someone is spinning you a yarn. Why? [disgust]
cuddlepop
09-Feb-10, 14:40
Never judge someone until you have walked two moons in their moccasins.:grin:
By then your'e a long way away and your'e wearing their moccasins.:)
I better change my signature then.
Jox has just suprised me with this revelation.....in the nicest possible way I hasen to add.:D
Will you accept 3of 8 that your concept is an unaswerable one for some people,spiritualism comes a tad close to Godlyness an must therefore be in line for the same ritualistic dogma that persues all religions.Could go on here,but no worth the while. Just a comment on your thought an in no way dismissive of it.
Thanks for your reply, but I don't think I need to accept my concept as being unanswerable. You are correct in saying that spiritualism comes close to godliness as in other religions. And other religions are answerable to not only god but the people who frequent them as I believe there is a need for openness. Other spiritualist churches and centres are open. Others aren't.
im new to this, ive never been to a spiritual church but know people who do go, and if they can give their congrigation some comfort in passing messages on then who are we to judge them? Many people follow this kind of religion and they earn their own money so can spend it in any way they see fit. im sure they are not being held to ransom, however if they claim to be giving it to charity then which charities are benefitting and if any are you would think that the people holding these events would be more than happy to devulge this information. Either way im sure most people dont care as long as it isnt their own money!:lol:
Thanks for your reply. You're right, no-one has their arms twisted to go or to pay, and yes, people can spend their own money in any way they see fit. But where their money goes should really be accounted for.
I suppose it's time I 'fessed up. I attend a spiritual church here in Hampshire, have done so for a few years. I'm not going to enter into a debate about my beliefs, I respect peoples rights to think it's all hogwash, I ask you to respect mine to believe in it.
Whilst I can't comment about CSC, I can tell you how the church is run that I attend, specifically, as I'm the treasurer, the way we distribute monies raised.
1. We don't charge an entrance fee.
2. We ask people if they would like to purchase a raffle ticket for £1 per strip of 5 tickets.
3. Out of a regular attendance of 30 people, we usually raise about £18-£22 in raffle ticket sales.
4. We have a collection plate going round at the end of service, this usually yields about £20-£25
5. The lady that deals with the refreshments gives me about £3 most weeks.
A good night is £50+ raised, most times it's around the £40 mark.
The hire of the hall is £20, the raffle prizes cost around £10 max., and the medium is paid £5 travelling expenses, some £10 depending on distance travelled. Twice per year we have a medium visiting who resides in Yorkshire, yet will only take £15 expenses! We also have some mediums who refuse to take any expenses.
The church has been running for 27 years, and for the first 12 years they always donated all profits to local charities. Since then all profits have been banked, including those from special fund raising events held about 4 times per year, a total which now stands at £11,000. The reason we stopped giving to local charities is to accrue enough funds to take out a long-term lease on a hall.
We don't have a committee as such, I'm the only one who actually has been given a 'title', although we have a small group that organises events, arranges visits by mediums, and does the tea/coffee making. None of us take any expenses. Anyone is free at anytime to ask to see the accounts.
As I said previously, I can't comment on CSC, I have no connection to them, and do not know anyone personally, connected to CSC.
For sure, there are charlatans within the spiritual movement, as there are in all walks of life, (or death :)), but I hope by providing you with the info of how my church is run, that you'll see that there are genuine spiritualists who do it to pass on their knowledge and give a better understanding of the movement, not to make a fast buck.
Thanks for your post Jox. That is exactly the way I say things should be done. Clear and open. Other churches or centres I know of do exactly the same.
Mediums who have come up here have expressed to others I know of their concern at the way things are run up here and maybe this is why they decide not to visit.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
09-Feb-10, 18:33
I suppose it's time I 'fessed up. I attend a spiritual church here in Hampshire, have done so for a few years. I'm not going to enter into a debate about my beliefs, I respect peoples rights to think it's all hogwash, I ask you to respect mine to believe in it.
Whilst I can't comment about CSC, I can tell you how the church is run that I attend, specifically, as I'm the treasurer, the way we distribute monies raised.
1. We don't charge an entrance fee.
2. We ask people if they would like to purchase a raffle ticket for £1 per strip of 5 tickets.
3. Out of a regular attendance of 30 people, we usually raise about £18-£22 in raffle ticket sales.
4. We have a collection plate going round at the end of service, this usually yields about £20-£25
5. The lady that deals with the refreshments gives me about £3 most weeks.
A good night is £50+ raised, most times it's around the £40 mark.
The hire of the hall is £20, the raffle prizes cost around £10 max., and the medium is paid £5 travelling expenses, some £10 depending on distance travelled. Twice per year we have a medium visiting who resides in Yorkshire, yet will only take £15 expenses! We also have some mediums who refuse to take any expenses.
The church has been running for 27 years, and for the first 12 years they always donated all profits to local charities. Since then all profits have been banked, including those from special fund raising events held about 4 times per year, a total which now stands at £11,000. The reason we stopped giving to local charities is to accrue enough funds to take out a long-term lease on a hall.
We don't have a committee as such, I'm the only one who actually has been given a 'title', although we have a small group that organises events, arranges visits by mediums, and does the tea/coffee making. None of us take any expenses. Anyone is free at anytime to ask to see the accounts.
As I said previously, I can't comment on CSC, I have no connection to them, and do not know anyone personally, connected to CSC.
For sure, there are charlatans within the spiritual movement, as there are in all walks of life, (or death :)), but I hope by providing you with the info of how my church is run, that you'll see that there are genuine spiritualists who do it to pass on their knowledge and give a better understanding of the movement, not to make a fast buck.
Fantastic post Jox.:)
Turquoise
09-Feb-10, 18:47
I've never charged and never will, what I have I share, it was given to me for free.
How well put, Jox! The most accurate readings I have been given have been free. My friend's mum would often give me readings and although she knew little of me, she certainly knew things which no-one else did. On the couple of occasions I paid for a reading, when I was younger, I found it to be generally cold reading.
As Jox has already said, chances are if they're worth their salt, they'll charge enough to cover their travel for example, and that'll probably be it!
3 0f 8, i have been told that you were a member of the caithness spiritualist church and fell out with them and wanted to start your own spiritualist church. There are bad feelings between you i have been told. After reading your post on here which you started when the other one closed, i quite beleive it.
It would seem that Fran must have been speaking to the CSC,otherwise she wouldn't have made such an accusation.Instead of finger pointing why not come right out with a name Fran?I mean if you're so convinced of the truth of what you say then you should have no fear of doing that.You're proving to the world at large that you are an unofficial spokesperson for the CSC.
Jox said that anyone can look at the accounts for her church,and I think that's something the CSC should allow as well.
This thread is less of a debate than an attack.
I have noticed on visits north, and reading this site that there are quite a few New Age people in Caithness. Sad that they all seem to fall out with one another rather than get on with their business.
Jox said that anyone can look at the accounts for her church,and I think that's something the CSC should allow as well.
I really must take offence at this................I'm a man. :roll: [lol]
Cedric Farthsbottom III
09-Feb-10, 22:25
I really must take offence at this................I'm a man.
Aye awright Katie we'll believe ye.[lol][lol]
It would seem that Fran must have been speaking to the CSC,otherwise she wouldn't have made such an accusation.Instead of finger pointing why not come right out with a name Fran?I mean if you're so convinced of the truth of what you say then you should have no fear of doing that.You're proving to the world at large that you are an unofficial spokesperson for the CSC.
Jox said that anyone can look at the accounts for her church,and I think that's something the CSC should allow as well.
.................................................. ..............................................
I am NOT an unofficial spokesman for anyone, just as Jox is not a she. I have been to a couple of meetings i admit, and the mediums from down south had to have their accomodation and petrol paid for, the hall had to be paid for and that is where the money would have gone to. At one meeting in the Norseman there were only a few there so they were out of pocket.
I've been for one reading (someone my mum knew). I am not a believer but everyone said if I went to see her I might change my mind. For a long time I wouldn't - I didn't think it would be fair to go just to test her. In the end I met her in the pub by accident and she said she would be happy to do a reading for a sceptic.
I went with an open mind (well as open as a sceptic can be) as part of me deep down wishes there was more to life than the nothingness that I believe in. I really wish I believed, but I just cant :roll:
I went round to her house and she said that I was hard work as I gave her no feedback as she was doing the reading. This irritated me a little as it made me think that she ran with things if people mentioned anything... Basically I gained nothing from the experience. She gave me 3 major things to take away with me and all 3 were way, way off the mark.
One of them was that it would take me years to find the house of my dreams and I wouldn't settle when I did move. Well I have the dream house I have always wanted, the dream job, the dream life and life in a beautiful area full of fantastic people. She missed all of that...
I really must take offence at this................I'm a man. :roll: [lol]
See, I'm not the only one :cool:
I don't know ANYTHING about the local spiritual groups, however I would like to remind people that some so called mediums and psychics can be very convincing and so much so that they can make a very lucrative lifestyle for themselves, and although I am sure that is not the case for some there are far more fraudsters that actual gifted spiritualists...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNP6wZJg6A&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSKzKv5fwck&feature=related
I'm now seriously thinking that Jox's account has been hacked. Surely...it must be true...
Mods! Check the IP addresses! :eek:
I was smiling as I typed my post, I thought of how surprised you would be when reading it. :)
It's just a load of mumbo jumbo!
If it was about organized religion the anti-god bashing squad would be all over this like a rash!
Edited I went round to her house and she said that I was hard work as I gave her no feedback as she was doing the reading. This irritated me a little as it made me think that she ran with things if people mentioned anything.
Just this once I'll argue the case for spiritualists.
You are all quite right to be sceptical, there are probably just as many chancers out there as there are true spiritualists, unfortunately this means everyone gets tarred with the same brush. I personally welcome sceptics, it means I have to work harder to provide information. One of the biggest sceptics is my oldest brother, who I've given info many times over the years yet he still refuses to believe, especially recently when I told him 'the lighthouse has been sold'. I had no idea what it meant, turns out he had put in for voluntary redundancy and was looking at selling up and buying a lighthouse in Scotland!
In Leanne's case, though I'm not going to knock the medium, to complain that there was little feedback makes me think she can't be very good. To ask for feedback, even just a yes or no, gives a poor medium too much info to feed on. I've seen those 'mediums' on tv, they are too practised and slick for my liking, I see them more in a Derren Browne style of reading. I work by taking people into a separate room, I don't look at them so I can't read facial expressions and I ask them not too talk until I'm finished. I don't want any form of 'clue', I find them to be misleading, which then gives the person receiving the reading doubts about the medium.
butterfly
10-Feb-10, 01:18
Jox,were you born with this gift or did you learn to do it?
Jox,were you born with this gift or did you learn to do it?
Born with it. I thought I was a freak.
Time proved me right. [lol]
butterfly
10-Feb-10, 01:52
[quote=joxville;657561]Born with it.
I was hoping you would say that because i canna understand how you could learn it,but maybe that's just me,my opinion.:)
.................................................. ..............................................
I am NOT an unofficial spokesman for anyone, just as Jox is not a she. I have been to a couple of meetings i admit, and the mediums from down south had to have their accomodation and petrol paid for, the hall had to be paid for and that is where the money would have gone to. At one meeting in the Norseman there were only a few there so they were out of pocket.
Ok,I'll take your word for it that you're not a spokeperson in any shape or form.But equally ,you are also not the treasurer for the CSC and are therefore not in any position to comment upon their finances.
And we still have heard nothing about the CSCs resident medium's "qualifications".
I really must take offence at this................I'm a man. :roll: [lol]
Apologies!!:D
Just this once I'll argue the case for spiritualists.
You are all quite right to be sceptical, there are probably just as many chancers out there as there are true spiritualists
Charlatans calling charlatans charlatans. Only on the org. :eek:
I'm not sceptical! I find the notion that someone is born with the abilty to speak with the dead and to make predictions about the future, ridiculous.
I respect your beliefs though.
Where,oh,where are the CSC??? Not a single response from the likes of White Arrow or Linkside.Not even their good friend Fran!
A number of questions have been asked to which they have given no reply.Why?
Come on CSC,give the answers to the questions which have been asked in this and other threads.:D
Charlatans calling charlatans charlatans. Only on the org. :eek:
I'm not sceptical! I find the notion that someone is born with the abilty to speak with the dead and to make predictions about the future, ridiculous.
I respect your beliefs though.
People had the same opinion of Galileo Galilei when he said that the earth was round and it went round the sun, but his beliefs weren't respected though, some denouncing him to the Roman Inquisition nearly 400 years ago. But he was right!
Where,oh,where are the CSC??? Not a single response from the likes of White Arrow or Linkside.Not even their good friend Fran!
A number of questions have been asked to which they have given no reply.Why?
Come on CSC,give the answers to the questions which have been asked in this and other threads.:D
The CSC won't reply as I know they prefer not to. They are of the opinion that those who don't agree with them are best ignored and they will soon go away. Maybe not this time.
There is no problem as far as I can see with making a living out of doing readings for people. If you declare your income and pay your taxes, then all well and good. It's taking money, not declaring where it goes, but being pious about it and not paying taxes on the money earned which is controversial and vexing.
Charlatans calling charlatans charlatans. Only on the org. :eek:
I'm not sceptical! I find the notion that someone is born with the abilty to speak with the dead and to make predictions about the future, ridiculous.
I respect your beliefs though.
What is your definition of a charlatan? To me, a charlatan is someone who deliberately sets out to gain monies by deception or trickery. I don't deceive people. I don't advertise my 'my services or goods' which will need to be paid for. Anyone who has received a reading from me has come to me of their own volition, and it hasn't cost them a penny. I won't claim to have a high success rate, simply because I don't know what that rate is. I give what I receive, it's up to the people to decide how good I am. I don't make false promises, I tell people before I begin that I'll be in the dark as much as them, they may have to ask other family members to corroborate what I pass on. I've had a lot of positive feedback, equally, I have some people still scratching their heads wondering what the hell I was on about.
I was raised to have a strong sense of right and wrong, to believe in justice, to be honest and fair. I am an open person. I've posted my name and photograph on this site because I've nothing to hide and no-one to fear. My only failing was hiding what I am, for many years, to all except my family. I'm now comfortable in my skin. What you see is what you get. I give what I receive in good faith and for free. I am not, never have been, and never will be dishonest in my dealings with anyone, especially at a time when some people are feeling emotionally raw.
Love and light to you and yours. :)
butterfly
12-Feb-10, 04:13
Jox,i would give you rep for the above post but i have to spread it around first.............:(
Metalattakk
12-Feb-10, 04:19
I'll intersect here just to add my own thoughts (welcome or not), much as I have tried to refrain so far. It has not been easy.
What is your definition of a charlatan?
Someone who tells lies to vulnerable people, whether for monetary gain or not.
Heavens, you're up late too....I've sent you a pm. I couldn't sleep because of changing shift pattern. Oh well, it's almost the weekend. :)
As long as you don't talk about football, politics or religion then most forums will tick along just nicely. :roll:
Makes for a helluva boring forum though. :D
Anyway Mr M., slightly off topic, why are you up so late?
Metalattakk
12-Feb-10, 04:47
Anyway Mr M., slightly off topic, why are you up so late?
Special dispensation. ;)
Oh well, I'll be off and try again to get some sleep before the alarm sounds at 7.15am :eek:
Your probably right Jox and charlatans not the right word to use to describe your interests. ;) It wasnt meant in a derogatory manner. I must'nt forget that maybe Jox is right and he can talk to the dead and predict the future but until Ive had a session with him I'll reserve my opinion.
Spiritism seems similar to the prophetic word some brands of Christians claim to recieve from various saintly sources. Its not uncommon to get thoughts in our heads. I suspect we are all born with the ability but only by using the facilities do we learn to interpret its contents.
Reading cards or palms or horoscopes are all part of the same source.
The interesting thing is that the thoughts are there.
I suppose by taking the opposite view that those thoughts all come from inside my head Jox and me would never agree unless he convinced me.
I'm open for convincing. :eek:
Charlatans calling charlatans charlatans. Only on the org. :eek:
I'm not sceptical! I find the notion that someone is born with the abilty to speak with the dead and to make predictions about the future, ridiculous.
I respect your beliefs though.
Are you saying that jox is a charlatan?
And as i am really interested in this phenomenon a question for jox. I believe you, but can you be sure that it is not a form of mind reading, that you yourself are not aware of?
Apparently everyone is born with a gift, but most people block it out when they are too young to remember - have you ever had an imaginary friend or seen patterns on a wall or ceiling that you think are faces? Who says that they are not?
Have you ever had deja vu, or 'known' something that you really cannot explain how you knew? Have you ever smelled something that wasn't there? Have you ever had shivers down your spine or gone cold then suddenly warm again? These are all signs.
On another note are there any clairvoyants/mediums in the Caithness ares who do private readings that people can recommend?
Boozeburglar
15-Feb-10, 23:03
Have you ever had deja vu
Sure.
At the same time I get amnesia.
cuddlepop
16-Feb-10, 09:16
Apparently everyone is born with a gift, but most people block it out when they are too young to remember - have you ever had an imaginary friend or seen patterns on a wall or ceiling that you think are faces? Who says that they are not?
Have you ever had deja vu, or 'known' something that you really cannot explain how you knew? Have you ever smelled something that wasn't there? Have you ever had shivers down your spine or gone cold then suddenly warm again? These are all signs.
On another note are there any clairvoyants/mediums in the Caithness ares who do private readings that people can recommend?
We all have a sixth sense its just some of us have switched it off or dont develop it.
When i was younger my senses were more "tuned" into these things now its all gone quiet unless its immediate family.
We all have a sixth sense its just some of us have switched it off or dont develop it.
When i was younger my senses were more "tuned" into these things now its all gone quiet unless its immediate family.
But what is that sixth sense? Are we really tuning into the spirit world, on onto some one else's wave lengths? Any spiritualists out there able to clarify that?
Has anyone read Brian Weiss? Very interesting book 'Many lives, Many masters.'
Are you saying that jox is a charlatan?
And as i am really interested in this phenomenon a question for jox. I believe you, but can you be sure that it is not a form of mind reading, that you yourself are not aware of?
But what is that sixth sense? Are we really tuning into the spirit world, on onto some one else's wave lengths? Any spiritualists out there able to clarify that?
Has anyone read Brian Weiss? Very interesting book 'Many lives, Many masters.'
If you read my second post you would see I withdrew my accusation against Jox that he is a charlatan. A charlatan falsely claims to have a special skill and I think Jox really believes the thoughts and voices he gets in his head are messages from the dead. I think he's deluded though, and you too if you believe him. ;)
Its difficult not to sound disrespectful when we are discussing someones beliefs, particularly someone elses beliefs, but if it comes across like that its only because I need to understand why people would translate the contents of their own heads to suppose they come from a source, not only from outside our own heads but from outside our own world. I think the notion is outrageous so I believe my response to you is as respectful as I can be without compromising my own beliefs.
That being said I will gladly offer myself in public or private to anyone who thinks they have this special skill to give me a message from beyond the grave and I will be more than happy to confirm I am wrong, or deluded, whichever the case may be.
If you read my second post you would see I withdrew my accusation against Jox that he is a charlatan. A charlatan falsely claims to have a special skill and I think Jox really believes the thoughts and voices he gets in his head are messages from the dead. I think he's deluded though, and you too if you believe him. ;)
Its difficult not to sound disrespectful when we are discussing someones beliefs, particularly someone elses beliefs, but if it comes across like that its only because I need to understand why people would translate the contents of their own heads to suppose they come from a source, not only from outside our own heads but from outside our own world. I think the notion is outrageous so I believe my response to you is as respectful as I can be without compromising my own beliefs.
That being said I will gladly offer myself in public or private to anyone who thinks they have this special skill to give me a message from beyond the grave and I will be more than happy to confirm I am wrong, or deluded, whichever the case may be.
So how do you know that thoughts that come into your head are not from the dead? If you are, for example, driving your car to work and you suddenly think about a fondly remembered dead relative or friend, how can you prove that the spirit of that person hasn't made contact with you causing the thought?
Yesterday, I thought about my aunt and some of the funny things she did for absolutely no reason and she's been dead for 20 years. Why would that happen?
Have you not considered that maybe people like Jox are channels to the spirit world because people like you and I are too dense to appreciate that we're being spoken to?
onecalledk
16-Feb-10, 16:04
So how do you know that thoughts that come into your head are not from the dead? If you are, for example, driving your car to work and you suddenly think about a fondly remembered dead relative or friend, how can you prove that the spirit of that person hasn't made contact with you causing the thought?
Yesterday, I thought about my aunt and some of the funny things she did for absolutely no reason and she's been dead for 20 years. Why would that happen?
Have you not considered that maybe people like Jox are channels to the spirit world because people like you and I are too dense to appreciate that we're being spoken to?
Would agree totally with this post. How many times has it been documented that family members for example "know" when someone is in trouble or not well or in need of help. Mothers have a very strong bond with their children and can often just "know" when something has happened to one of their offspring.
How many times have you answered the phone to find the person you were just thinking about at the other end? Our "gut feeling" is our connection to those around us, it is our "sixth sense".
Why does the idea of being able to link to others on the planet whether actually physically here in body or not seem to provoke such a reaction of disbelief in people? If it cannot be proven to be real it cannot be proven to be unreal!
I dont quite understand why people get so riled about their having to be a definate answer to life and death, why is it so important to some that life is just life and there is nothing else ? why does it provoke such strong emotions ? Why is it not possible for everyone to have their own belief and that belief not tested or ridiculed?
We are all correct at any given time.
K
If you read my second post you would see I withdrew my accusation against Jox that he is a charlatan. A charlatan falsely claims to have a special skill and I think Jox really believes the thoughts and voices he gets in his head are messages from the dead. I think he's deluded though, and you too if you believe him. ;)
Its difficult not to sound disrespectful when we are discussing someones beliefs, particularly someone elses beliefs, but if it comes across like that its only because I need to understand why people would translate the contents of their own heads to suppose they come from a source, not only from outside our own heads but from outside our own world. I think the notion is outrageous so I believe my response to you is as respectful as I can be without compromising my own beliefs.
That being said I will gladly offer myself in public or private to anyone who thinks they have this special skill to give me a message from beyond the grave and I will be more than happy to confirm I am wrong, or deluded, whichever the case may be.
Thanks for clarifying your position.
It doesn't matter whether you believe whole-heartedly in spiritualism or not, you should still question it, I do. It took me a long time to accept the way I am, and I still question everyday why can I do something that others can't? I'm not deluded in any way, though I did think along similar lines when I was young. I've learned to switch it on and off at will, though sometimes if a spirit is desperate enough to get a message to someone, it will pester me until I acknowledge it. I can see where Metallattakk and Gleeber are coming from, where is the rock solid evidence? The truthful answer is there isn't any, it's up to the medium to believe what they are receiving is sound enough evidence, and for the person receiving the reading to take from it what they want. Should you have blind faith in it? Absolutely not, no more than you should put blind faith in any religion or belief. I know it's difficult for Metallattakk, Gleeber and others to put into words what they think without it seeming disrespectful, I'm sure for the most part they aren't trying to be, it's just that they need something more concrete than 'because I believe in it, you should too'. I know so many mediums that accept what they receive as absolute proof, that they don't feel the need to question, which actually makes them quite dangerous, because they will try so hard to convince the recipient that they are right in what they are saying. To me, that is so very wrong, the recipients emotional state is being taken advantage of, and who knows what could result from that. Spiritualism isn't dangerous, mediumship is. Be careful who you see and what you believe, always question the medium, don't make it easy for them, the brain is a powerful tool, it's weakness is it's open to suggestion.
I was raised to have a strong sense of right and wrong, to believe in justice, to be honest and fair. I am an open person. I give what I receive in good faith and for free. I am not, never have been, and never will be dishonest in my dealings with anyone, especially at a time when some people are feeling emotionally raw.
Love and light to you and yours. :)
*********** Whilst reading the local 'crack' I came upon this statement by Joxville...I am having difficulty understanding how he can quote so beautifully, and in the next breath let his 'dark humour' pour from his mouth/hands about people dying/ Seems to be a wee bitty of a contradiction here......
************Would the Real Man please stand up...you have to be one or the other, not both!
Whilst reading the local 'crack' I came upon this statement by Joxville...I am having difficulty understanding how he can quote so beautifully, and in the next breath let his 'dark humour' pour from his mouth/hands about people dying/ Seems to be a wee bitty of a contradiction here......
Would the Real Man please stand up...you have to be one or the other, not both!
Ach come on Sandyr1, if you were sitting in Caithness and reading this and not in Canada as you are, would you be so indignant at Jox? I think not.
Another Orger made uncalled for reference to the death of Princess Diana on the same day, and that did not make you indignant.
To quote your good self "you have to be one or the other".
Boozeburglar
18-Feb-10, 11:14
I was not wondering around making jokes about Di when it happened. In fact I was passing the piles of flowers and crowds of rubber neckers on my way to deal with flesh and bone everyday people, including more than one war veteran, supporting them and their families and carers in order to let them die in peace and dignity.
When have I claimed to be sensitive or open to the spirit of people who have passed on? I have not claimed to talk to dead people.
Someone mentioned Diana had a black Ford car, I mentioned she did not have much luck with black cars.
If, after 13 years that is too much, or uncalled for, then perhaps you need to get a grip.
Boozeburglar
18-Feb-10, 11:20
I know, personally, about 70 mediums, but am acquainted with maybe close on 200. . . . I've never met a medium who has a book or business to promote.
Not a single one had a book they were selling at the end of the meeting? Not a single one runs any business with their 'gift' and offers information about it at the end of their meetings?
I am beginning to wonder who these 200 are. Are they dead people?
;)
Well Mr G...you may have a point....BUT.... I am sure that we would all like a modicum of decency and sensivity (even you and I who likely have seem more than most). And I didn't see the other post...
I don't know/ just distasteful, plus the fact that the author of the post likely is do far out of that poor young man's league...... don't think that is/ should be what the Org stands for....
And I am sure you are aware that there is some nastiness creeping into posts on here, and perhaps these things should be 'nipped in the bud'.
I am sure there are many like me who like to hear whats happening in Caithness etc., without the dirt.....well too much dirt and disrespect...anyway I just found post of his love etc....kinda doesn't connect......................
*********** Whilst reading the local 'crack' I came upon this statement by Joxville...I am having difficulty understanding how he can quote so beautifully, and in the next breath let his 'dark humour' pour from his mouth/hands about people dying/ Seems to be a wee bitty of a contradiction here......
************Would the Real Man please stand up...you have to be one or the other, not both!
Which post contradicted this? I'm having difficulty understanding.
*********** Whilst reading the local 'crack' I came upon this statement by Joxville...I am having difficulty understanding how he can quote so beautifully, and in the next breath let his 'dark humour' pour from his mouth/hands about people dyingIt's not so hard. I would imagine all of us have a dark side somewhere.
Seems to be a wee bitty of a contradiction here......
************Would the Real Man please stand up...you have to be one or the other, not both!
Why can't people be more than one thing? I would suggest that what makes a person whomever he or she is is the amalgamation of life views that have affected their thoughts and processes. Maybe like the Canadian comedian Tim Steeves? In 2006 he cracked a joke about the luge. He was prophetically right, unfortunately. Do you wonder why a co-captain of the 1984 New Brunswick AA Basketball Champions could crack a joke about a sportsman dying? Would you ask the Real Man in him to stand up?
wicki here ~~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Steeves
I have read the last few posts, and I guess if this is the norm for orgers then I am the odd person out.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it has been said that this of lack of respect, is the beginning of anti social behaviour. Oh well.... c'est la vie! I am not a prude trust me, but it's good to know where one stands.......
In the early 20th century spiritualism was wildly popular. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle creator of Sherlock Holmes was convinced that spiritual mediums could put you in touch with the dear departed.
It worked something like this.
A group of believers, plus the medium, would sit around a table in a darkened room. The medium would proceed to "channel" the dead. That meant the medium was taken over by the dead who would announce their arrival by thumping on the table. Sometimes lights went off and the table would even move.
This led to a series of enquiries by the media of the age asking what might be going on under the table?
The answer was that whatever was going on, these people were frauds. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was duped into believing in fairies - he was shown some photos of the little critters!
On an altogether different level is the spey wife phenomenon - Dundee was a great centre for this.
Have you not considered that maybe people like Jox are channels to the spirit world because people like you and I are too dense to appreciate that we're being spoken to?
Ive never cosidered that people have the ability to talk with the dead. Not even in the most delusionary chapter of my life. ;)
Ive had some contact with spiritism and although I never judged anyone to be false (I believed they believed it) I was never impressed.
I'm open to the idea if anyone wants to try their gift out on me and I would be as honest as I could about whether the information meant anything to me.
Human nature is much more difficult than the physical world to confirm any laws about how human beings will react in certain circumstances. One things for sure though, There are billions who think theres another realm to the one we live in. A spiritual realm where goodness knows what happens but jox was born with the gift to accsess it. Aye right.
One of us is deluded. :eek:
When it comes to spiritualism the predominant concern of orgers seems to centre on the need to be polite and to keep down the cost of tea and snacks. That has nothing to do with the debate (so called) between spiritualists and sceptics. Could the spiritualists on the ORG perhaps retain a dead person to deal with sceptics like myself?
Of course the lines of communication 'twixt quick and dead are not terribly effective (surprise! surprise!) But I do feel the dead could provide valuable insights into the issues that periodically erupt here. For example the old postacrds file would benefit by insights from people who were actually around at the time. Family trees could also be an important area where the dead could sort out who's who and what's what.
Maybe some Orgers are already dead....or should that be brain dead?
ever seen a ghost? I have
Ever seen electricity? Just because you cant physically see something or touch it doesnt mean its not real
There will always be sceptics & there will always be believers, but why not be polite about your scepticism? Being polite costs nothing.
*********** Whilst reading the local 'crack' I came upon this statement by Joxville...I am having difficulty understanding how he can quote so beautifully, and in the next breath let his 'dark humour' pour from his mouth/hands about people dying/ Seems to be a wee bitty of a contradiction here......
************Would the Real Man please stand up...you have to be one or the other, not both!
Why should I explain myself to you or others? I am who I am. I made my stance regarding the joke in a thread which was removed by the Mods, and at the same time received an infraction for it, as well as an infraction for the signature I used, though I accept that one because I deliberately used the sig. to wind up you and others that were outraged. I didn't receive an infraction for the joke, because the Mods accept everyone has a different sense of humour.
As far as I am concerned the matter is now closed. Any further discussion and I will put a complaint in to the Mods, something I've never done before, but complaints were made about me, so what's good for the goose.......
Boozeburglar
18-Feb-10, 17:26
Complain about what?
No one is attacking you. Just discussing.
If you don't like the ripples don't throw the pebbles into the pond.
;)
Boozeburglar
18-Feb-10, 17:29
Just because you cant physically see something or touch it doesnt mean its not real
Of course, it works the other way as well.
I have seen a ghost. Before I ever even drank or anything. With several other people.
Life would be very dull if everything was unfolded.
indeed, but this thread has gone astray as usual :(
When it comes to spiritualism the predominant concern of orgers seems to centre on the need to be polite and to keep down the cost of tea and snacks. That has nothing to do with the debate (so called) between spiritualists and sceptics. Could the spiritualists on the ORG perhaps retain a dead person to deal with sceptics like myself?
Of course the lines of communication 'twixt quick and dead are not terribly effective (surprise! surprise!) But I do feel the dead could provide valuable insights into the issues that periodically erupt here. For example the old postacrds file would benefit by insights from people who were actually around at the time. Family trees could also be an important area where the dead could sort out who's who and what's what.
Maybe some Orgers are already dead....or should that be brain dead?
Forget all the what about the Euromillions numbers?
Complain about what?
No one is attacking you. Just discussing.
If you don't like the ripples don't throw the pebbles into the pond.
;)
I didn't say anyone is 'attacking' me. I've been asked to explain who I am. I refuse......end of.
PS I can stand the ripples, it's just some don't like the splashes I create. ;)
On that note I shall bow out from this thread.
And on the topic of seeing things....has anyone seen... I am sure...the documentaries on the Loch Ness Monster....
I am sure there are a few....but the most recent one I saw highlighted the Two Bobbies, one of them being a witness....so funny....wasn't exactly your Sterling Police Officer! Looked as if he may have 'had a few'. And I could be classified as an expert...been there/ done that!
And Yes Mr.G you can comment, and I won't be offended!
I didn't say anyone is 'attacking' me. I've been asked to explain who I am. I refuse......end of.
PS I can stand the ripples, it's just some don't like the splashes I create. ;)
Seems like a good conclusion..and how well stated!
Ever seen electricity? Just because you cant physically see something or touch it doesnt mean its not real
Not really the best of analogies there... Electricity can be explained, as can wind, even the magnetic poles. Care to try again? :lol:
Not trying to poke fun - I'd just like to see something comparable.
yes they can be explained...but only relatively recently.
Show electricity to someone a few hundred years ago and they wouldnt believe it.
It IS comparable....it just hasnt been explained yet. Re-read my quote there Leanne.;)
Sage, what is electricity doing in this debate? If you are looking for external power sources to bolster your spooks and apparitions why not choose nuclear fission?
When it comes to spiritualism the predominant concern of orgers seems to centre on the need to be polite and to keep down the cost of tea and snacks.What? Is there an icon for a drivel alert I can put here? :eyes
That has nothing to do with the debate (so called) between spiritualists and sceptics. Could the spiritualists on the ORG perhaps retain a dead person to deal with sceptics like myself?Tell you what, Rich. Why don't you, as a sceptic, retain a live medium for the purposes of investigation? If you need the proof, go look for it. If you aren't prepared to do so, don't criticise.
Of course the lines of communication 'twixt quick and dead are not terribly effective (surprise! surprise!) But I do feel the dead could provide valuable insights into the issues that periodically erupt here. For example the old postacrds file would benefit by insights from people who were actually around at the time. Family trees could also be an important area where the dead could sort out who's who and what's what.See. I get the impression you're trying to be sarcastic here. Yes? Getting a sly dig in at Sage because her public profile says she's a genealogical researcher and indexer? Not nice.
Maybe some Orgers are already dead....or should that be brain dead?Are we being introspective here, Rich?
Sage, what is electricity doing in this debate? If you are looking for external power sources to bolster your spooks and apparitions why not choose nuclear fission?Sage's analogy was fine, and you know it. Electricity is a natural force as well as a man made one (consider lightning or static electricity), and an explanation of how to make it artificially would have been incomprehensible to someone from the medieval era. I'm sure people from then would have been asking for proof.
Perhaps you could explain to me how, in an internet chat session, a medium who knows nothing of me, living on the other side of the world, can come up with pieces of information specific to me, including the initials of my parents and one of my hobbies and, more importantly, something relating to my mother in law from my previous marriage that would be impossible to even guess at? That piece of information was the fact that she had six of her upper front teeth missing after a cycling accident as an a adult.
Stop being a boor.
Dont blow up at me now but nuclear energy is indeed a natural force, like electricity!
My point was that your argument by analogy is incredibly weak.
In a later post I will bring up the subject of conjuring which is much more relevant.
As for the information about someone's mother in law's false teeth (or whatever it was) that's easy. It is unbelievably simple to come up with this kind of phenomenon.
Thank you 3of8 :D
The sad fact is that even if there was "proof" there are those who would be unprepared to accept it. It's always been like that. There are obviously mediums who are cold readers and who are prepared to fleece people, but there are also a lot of genuine people out there.
Conjuration is something totally different and is harking back to the realms of the Victorian love of the theatrical and the performers such as Derren Brown (who i think is incredible at what he does)
I love a good debate but when it falls to insults and ridicule then it is no longer a debate and becomes more like a school playground.
What my profile doesnt say is that Im also a Tarot reader.
Here's an enlightening site!
http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/cagliostro_quack_of_quacks/
Woud any spiritualist here like to win one million dollars?
Here's how.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
I do'nt post now but thought I would reply to this thread,I have been to two Spiritualists one in Dingwall and one in Caithness,the lady in Dingwall did not charge me money but said I could make a donation to the Medium,Spiritualists, fund which she told me helps Mediums who do not have a regular income{sorry thats all I know} the other lady charged me £25 for about a three hour reading about the same time I was at the reading in Dingwall.I knew before I went to the lady in Caithness that she would charge me for the reading where the money goes I have no idea.The interesting thing for me is both readings were more or less the same I was told by both ladies what has happened in my past, what was happening in the present, and what the future holds for me it was .....interesting thats for sure.
Dont blow up at me now but nuclear energy is indeed a natural force, like electricity!
My point was that your argument by analogy is incredibly weak.
In a later post I will bring up the subject of conjuring which is much more relevant.
As for the information about someone's mother in law's false teeth (or whatever it was) that's easy. It is unbelievably simple to come up with this kind of phenomenon.
Read my post again, you dillop! The fact that I had a mother in law with all of her teeth in her head bar 6, due to a cycling accident, confirmed via internet chat with no clues given is not unbelievably simple. It's butt-clenchingly scary. BTW, she's still alive, not speaking from the dead.
Thanks for the links. How novel of you. You've excelled yourself in your investigations. Yawn.
Secondly, the nuclear energy you speak of is not a natural force. It's man made. In reactors. Producing heat which turns water to steam, driving turbines that make the electricity. Or it's what makes nuclear bomb go bang. Or do you mean nuclear fusion, the stuff which powers the sun? Clarify yourself.
Read my post again, you dillop! Clarify yourself.
And the prize for the most original insult of the day........:mad:
After a comment I made on an earlier post, I thought I would put in this post what was said during my reading with a medium last night over the internet.
This reading cost me nothing apart from my time.
Bear in mind, the person I was virtually chatting to over the internet doesn’t know me. And doesn’t know of me. We have user names and our true identities are unknown. We could be anywhere in the world at any given time. I can access the site from wherever I want, when I want.
I am in a virtual room, and a medium makes a suggestion of what he/she is feeling or seeing and asks if anyone in the room can take it. Some of us say yes. But more information is required. So the medium gives it. I can take the extra info, but others can’t so they respectfully step back and allow us to chat.
The medium tells me of the person he/she has. Describes him. I say yes, I can take it. This is how it pans out. The remarks in brackets are my comments to readers of this post....
Medium: He was unable to walk when he died due to a problem with his back?
Me: Yes. (cancer of the spine)
Medium: About 50 to 55 in age
Me: Yes (50 when he died)
Medium: The names John, Liz and the initials I and L are prominent.
Me: Yes. (His name Les, sister Liz father John and mother Irene.) So far, so good. Sister Liz is only known by that name by two people, me and my dead brother Les.
Medium: He’s showing me his mouth and pointing and saying 6 false teeth in a row. Can you take it?
Me: Yes. (My ex mother-in-law, of whom the medium knows nothing of and who is still alive lost 6 teeth in a cycling accident as an adult.)
Medium: He’s giving me the medium memory of a long time ago. You as a child playing with ball with an older man, surrounded by white walls.
Me: This is personal to me. He was 15 years older than me and we played ball in my nan’s back yard which had whitewashed walls.
Medium: I can see him in a big garage surrounded by nice, bright cars. It doesn’t look dirty as garages do.
Me: Yes, I can take that. (He worked in a car factory as a manager.)
Medium: He was very proud of his cars. Very particular.
Me: Yes. (He was obsessive about his cars. No one cold eat, drink or smoke in them)
Medium: I can see a yellow car, brand new, what is the significance in him pulling a face?
Me: I can take that. (First time out in his brand new yellow car, a lorry jack-knifed in front of him and he and his family were lucky to survive the crash.)
Medium: He’s telling me to say to you House of Angels. Do you understand what that means?
Me: No. (Looking for House of Angels online later, I came across a place in Redding, California, where I have life-long friends living. This may be a spurious connection, but he may have been giving me proof of knowing what goes on in my life)
Medium: Also, I can see a deer on a grassy bank. Can you take this?
Me: Yes (I can see deer in our garden which goes up an embankment at the back of the house)
Medium: Why can I see jars of honey?
Me: I used to keep bees.
Medium: He’s giving me a shopping list.
Me: OK?
Medium: Milk, Eggs, Sugar & Butter. Can you take it?
Me: I don’t understand that one. (However, my children love making cakes. Maybe he’s watching them?)
Maybe there's a sceptic out there who can give alternative reasons for what the medium said? Perhaps they can explain in what way the medium was cold reading me or how did he or she (for I don't know if it's a man or woman) know these things about me.
Points to note:
1) I am new to that site therefore they don't know me or my background.
2) I use an alias
3) I don't have a Facebook account or such like for anyone to check up while they give me details.
4) I use a nickname for my email address that only close family know.
5) I gave no leading answers to my questions as you can see.
Discuss.
And the prize for the most original insult of the day........:mad:
Ta very much! Much politer than I normally am though. ;)
Metalattakk
20-Feb-10, 01:33
Maybe there's a sceptic out there who can give alternative reasons for what the medium said? Perhaps they can explain in what way the medium was cold reading me or how did he or she (for I don't know if it's a man or woman) know these things about me.
Points to note:
1) I am new to that site therefore they don't know me or my background.
2) I use an alias
3) I don't have a Facebook account or such like for anyone to check up while they give me details.
4) I use a nickname for my email address that only close family know.
5) I gave no leading answers to my questions as you can see.
Discuss.
Seems to me in most of those examples that you're fitting his vague suggestions to your past/memories, rather than that he's 'seeing' anything from the supernatural arena.
The fact that you so desperately want to believe belies the authenticity of your submission. Please do read up on Barnum Statements.
Seems to me in most of those examples that you're fitting his vague suggestions to your past/memories, rather than that he's 'seeing' anything from the supernatural arena.
The fact that you so desperately want to believe belies the authenticity of your submission. Please do read up on Barnum Statements.
I'm sure that you'd swear black was white to fit your own means, MA.
My brother died of cancer. In his spine. he couldn't walk. The medium told me. How?
The medium told me he was 50 to 55. Right again. How?
If the names John and Liz and the initials L and I are specific to me, how can you claim that they're vague?
I could go on. I won't.
Bang on about Barnum Statements all you like. It's for you as a sceptic to prove to me that what I experienced wasn't real and was a fallacy. You can't. You can only quote what you've read. In fact, all that most sceptics seem to be able to do is suggest that what one person says to another is a con. "Read this, read that and read the other," they say. "That is all the proof you need." The fact that some can con people doesn't mean that all of them do.
I keep looking to see what mediums can tell me. I'm not desperately wanting anything. I look for proof and they give it. If I find someone who's cold reading or generalising I leave them be usually because they're crap and it's patently bloody obvious.
I know about Barnum, Derren Brown and Randi et al. They are proving nothing to me apart from how con artists work. If you can explain things to me differently, then do so.
Metalattakk
20-Feb-10, 02:57
My brother died of cancer. In his spine. he couldn't walk. The medium told me. How?
No, the medium didn't tell you that. The medium suggested something vaguely similar, and your beliefs made it fit.
Secondly, the nuclear energy you speak of is not a natural force. It's man made. In reactors. Producing heat which turns water to steam, driving turbines that make the electricity. Or it's what makes nuclear bomb go bang. Or do you mean nuclear fusion, the stuff which powers the sun? Clarify yourself.
Ridiculous.
I read this thread without dreaming of posting. Make your argument as you see fit, but don't speak factually of things you don't understand.
Nuclear energy not a natural force because it's "in reactors". That's like saying fire is not natural because it's in a furnace.
Uranium 235 fissions, releasing energy if it absorbs a neutron. Naturally.
You can't change the laws of physics.
No, the medium didn't tell you that. The medium suggested something vaguely similar, and your beliefs made it fit.
you are implying that the answers by the medium could fit anyone as they were so vague. Well if she/he had given them to me, they certainly would not have fitted in with anything in my life. It would have been no no no all the way, no matter how hard I tried to make them fit.
I'd be interested to get a link to this chat room.
onecalledk
20-Feb-10, 12:45
why is it so vital that only one side is correct in this argument? its dissolved into an argument as there appears to be a lot of point scoring in this thread!
all of us create our own reality , so one persons truth is not anothers, thats fact. Even two people viewing the same incident will have a different experience of what happened.
Couldnt it just be possible that both sides are correct ! someone mentioned the law of physics, well you cant have a positive without a negative, one HAS to exist for the other to exist.
So actually both sides of this argument are correct. Its EGO that takes over this argument with one side bent on disproving the other. You cant disprove your own truth !
If those who are sceptical believe that is their truth that makes is correct, for those who believe if that is your truth then that also makes it correct.
As I said at the start of this post WE CREATE OUR OWN REALITY. It has never been otherwise and it cannot be otherwise.
K
Metalattakk
20-Feb-10, 12:53
you are implying that the answers by the medium could fit anyone as they were so vague. Well if she/he had given them to me, they certainly would not have fitted in with anything in my life. It would have been no no no all the way, no matter how hard I tried to make them fit.
I'd be interested to get a link to this chat room.
The 'medium' wouldn't have given you the same set of answers because you'd have said 'no' a lot earlier in the questionnaire, leading off to different questions and answers.
These 'mediums' are very clever don't forget, they are masters of deception and are adept at twisting the conversation on the fly.
Of course, they can't do that without the aid of a willing, complicit subject - someone who believes, and wants to believe so badly that they only cherry-pick the correct answers and sweep the incorrect answers aside.
With people like that, a medium can get nine answers wrong and one right, and be hailed as a visionary.
why is it so vital that only one side is correct in this argument? its dissolved into an argument as there appears to be a lot of point scoring in this thread!
all of us create our own reality , so one persons truth is not anothers, thats fact. Even two people viewing the same incident will have a different experience of what happened.
Couldnt it just be possible that both sides are correct ! someone mentioned the law of physics, well you cant have a positive without a negative, one HAS to exist for the other to exist.
So actually both sides of this argument are correct. Its EGO that takes over this argument with one side bent on disproving the other. You cant disprove your own truth !
If those who are sceptical believe that is their truth that makes is correct, for those who believe if that is your truth then that also makes it correct.
As I said at the start of this post WE CREATE OUR OWN REALITY. It has never been otherwise and it cannot be otherwise.
K
LOL! Homespun postmodernism still lives on the Org. :lol:
onecalledk
20-Feb-10, 13:23
LOL! Homespun postmodernism still lives on the Org. :lol:
We create our own reality , fact. I dont see what is postmodernism about this ????
A person who is colour blind will see the colour red as green, to them the object that is red is green , that is their truth, you cant tell them any different because that is all they SEE.
You cannot make people see something they dont believe as their truth , fact.
So this thread will go on forever and ever getting more and more childish with point scoring. But you are BOTH correct.
Ego is mans foolish belief that somehow he is BETTER than anything or anyone else and knows more.
K
I dont see what is postmodernism about this ???? That's why it's so amusing. :lol:
onecalledk
20-Feb-10, 13:34
That's why it's so amusing. :lol:
Ah I get you now lol ....... :lol:
I would hazard a guess that your path is on a different planet from mine lol .....:lol:
K
Some people open their minds so much, their brain falls out.
Ridiculous.
I read this thread without dreaming of posting. Make your argument as you see fit, but don't speak factually of things you don't understand.
Nuclear energy not a natural force because it's "in reactors". That's like saying fire is not natural because it's in a furnace.
Uranium 235 fissions, releasing energy if it absorbs a neutron. Naturally.
You can't change the laws of physics.
Going completely off topic this. Anyway...
The original analogy was that someone from way in the past would not understand electricity or how it could be produced. Until it was discovered 70 odd years ago, no-one would have known that uranium 235 fissions, nor that it could sustain a chain reaction nor that the uranium would need to be enriched in order to be viable enough to make electricity. Nuclear energy cannot make electricity on its own can it? It needs to be harnessed. So if you had been born say, 150 or 200 years ago, would you have even known what an isotope was?
Some people open their minds so much, their brain falls out.
Your name gives that much away, mate. :eek:
When are the other six dwarfs turning up?
These 'mediums' are very clever don't forget, they are masters of deception and are adept at twisting the conversation on the fly.You're bigging them up and assuming that they are all cleverer than you.
Of course, they can't do that without the aid of a willing, complicit subject - someone who believes, and wants to believe so badly that they only cherry-pick the correct answers and sweep the incorrect answers aside.Yeah, my mistake there was not putting in the whole of the transcript but there were things personal to me that I wouldn't let all and sundry see.
With people like that, a medium can get nine answers wrong and one right, and be hailed as a visionary.
Sounds like a lot of people on here. So many answers wrong, but get one right, just one.....
Metalattakk
20-Feb-10, 15:43
Words fail me. :eek:
Some people open their minds so much, their brain falls out.
You're assuming there's one in there in the first place......
Set up a darkened room.
Purchase a stuffed alligator.
Also purchase a crystal ball.
Hand the ball to your subject.
Say nothing, do nothing for three minutes.
By this time the ball should be nice and opaque.
Then you start: "THERE IS SOMEONE CLOSE TO YOU WHO HAS HAD A TERRIBLE TIME'
The subject replies "that could be my auntie janet."
As you continue asking questions of a very general nature the answers you get are more and more specific.
"Do you have a dog?"
"Yes"
"He's with you now.Heès with you all the time.....is he a...
Meanwhile back in the real world
ÈYes heès a terrier....wait a second my computer caps key is doing weird stuff....am under attack from the ghosts....ÉÈd
tis the same way with religion...
couple of people get together to write a book.
People believe in the book (could be any book but there are a few floating around that include some pretty out there things that are taken as truth)
People enhance their musings on the book with ritual, incense and "the way"
Way down the line "the book" is taken as gospel.
Belief is the same the work over, just different names, places and attitudes.
Like others, Spiritualism is a religion (not mine, but dont knock it)
If this were a thread on Christian, Muslim or Hindu beliefs it would pretty soon be shut down as being deflamatory. We all have our different beliefs and different people have different ways of coping, dont knock what others believe in just because its not your belief
onecalledk
20-Feb-10, 18:01
if you take religion and the different people that appear within each religion you find lots and lots of similarities. The whole thing about religion is that people proclaim "their" god to be the only god and so it goes round.
if we got rid of religion tomorrow you would probably achieve world peace. People get killed in the name of anothers god...... God though wouldnt have his children killing each other would he ......
Before anyone has a go I am not religious, I am not a spiritualist either.
Man will continue to wage war against his fellow man for his beliefs until then end of time until man wakes up and realises that his beliefs are NOT that dissimilar to the man he is fighting ......
K
you are implying that the answers by the medium could fit anyone as they were so vague. Well if she/he had given them to me, they certainly would not have fitted in with anything in my life. It would have been no no no all the way, no matter how hard I tried to make them fit.
I'd be interested to get a link to this chat room.
The interesting thing to me is there was a group in the chat room who slowly dropped out until only 3 of 8 had any connection with what the medium was saying. Surely if the group were big enough then the medium was bound to hit lucky with one. Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking (pardon the pun) but I would need much more convincing evidence. And I know, to many of you it is about faith and not evidence, and that is fine but you do tend to look down your noses at us yet to be convinced.
Man will continue to wage war against his fellow man for his beliefs until then end of time until man wakes up and realises that his beliefs are NOT that dissimilar to the man he is fighting ......K
Wars have little to do with beliefs. Beliefs are just the symptoms. There's an inherant aggression in man that makes him want to destroy the other person.
Beliefs are just that beliefs. Ever since man started thinking, it was the truth he was chasing. Theres a difference between belief and truth. Believing the earth is flat is a belief. Knowing the earth is round is a truth. Believing someone can talk to the dead is a belief.
Knowing someone can talk to the dead is a delusion. :roll:
onecalledk
20-Feb-10, 20:12
Wars have little to do with beliefs. Beliefs are just the symptoms. There's an inherant aggression in man that makes him want to destroy the other person.
Beliefs are just that beliefs. Ever since man started thinking, it was the truth he was chasing. Theres a difference between belief and truth. Believing the earth is flat is a belief. Knowing the earth is round is a truth. Believing someone can talk to the dead is a belief.
Knowing someone can talk to the dead is a delusion. :roll:
so what is a war then ? wars are founded on one side being more correct than the other. The wars raging in the middle east are solely about religion and belief. Ever since man started thinking he has waged a war against his own EGO.
There is nothing inside man that makes him want to destroy another apart from EGO. The mind is a very very powerful and creates illusion, its creates and feeds that illusion through our thoughts and feelings.
One nation declaring war against another can only happen because of what the warring side believe ......
K
so what is a war then ?K
A war's when beliefs go out the window. :lol:
I think we're almost saying the same thing but I dont blame belief for it. I know lots of people with very strong beliefs, I have them myself, and non of us would destroy something because of those beliefs.
Egos different. Everyone has one just like fingernails or a naval. I see ego as a kind of sentry, watching over another part of me that could be much more destructive. Most people will have an aggressive part to their natures but that has nothing to do with beliefs.
All I really know, and the evidence from this thread, and others on the org is that there are a lot of us walking around...deluded. :eek:
I would say most wars are fought to gain power/land/oil. Or are you saying we are in the middle east because we don't like their religion?
Was the Falkland war about religion? Are you saying Hitler invaded most of Europe because of religion? Is the IRA fighting because they don't want protistants in the north or because they want a united Ireland? Some wars may be fought in the name of religion - but to say they are the cause of it is absolute bollocks.
onecalledk
21-Feb-10, 14:54
I would say most wars are fought to gain power/land/oil. Or are you saying we are in the middle east because we don't like their religion?
Was the Falkland war about religion? Are you saying Hitler invaded most of Europe because of religion? Is the IRA fighting because they don't want protistants in the north or because they want a united Ireland? Some wars may be fought in the name of religion - but to say they are the cause of it is absolute bollocks.
Where do I start ..... yep Hitler invaded europe because of religion, he had a vision of white supremacy where the Arian race was supreme, he chose to exterminate (or try to ) the jewish, the blacks etc. So yes underneath this IS religion. The Swatiska is a religious symbol that was adulterated by Hitler as he was also a believer in the power of black magic. The war in Ireland with the IRA IS to do with religion and Ireland will probably never unite as catholics dont get along with protestants. Having lived in the central belt for a few years I have seen people take stance over catholic/protestant as some children are separated at school age, best of friends til one child attends a catholic or protestant school then they become enemies. The religious divide is alive and well in most of the central belt. You only have to witness an orange march to see the bigotry at work.
We are not in the middle east because of their religion per se but would we be in the middle east if there was no oil? No we wouldnt therefore EGO comes into it. That country has something this country wants therefore this country is entitled (or so it thinks) to take it. The fighting that is going on in Afghanistan is religious based to a point as the Taliban cites their religious beliefs when waging war on their own peoples.........
Saddam Hussein kept his own peoplesin poverty and hid behind religion as well......
So YES religion is behind most wars ,as I said in my original reply if we got rid of religion tomorrow we would probably have world peace. The ironic thing is that if you study other religions you begin to see that apart from a few different names for people within that religion we are all following the SAME path.
Did you know for example that Moses appears in the Koran? as do angels who appear throughout many religions. Dont go by the religious extremists who intepret their religious texts the way that suits them. All religion has the same basic principles. Man chooses through his EGO to interpret it the way that it suits him at the time......
K
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