MMR Jab.

[telfordstar]

Whats everyones views on this?

Heres my dilema. I have a son who is just past 2 years old. I havnt let him have the mmr jab yet as im having some issues with it. I have a 9 year old who suffers fro ADHD. I can pinpoint the time of change with him to the time of the mmr jab. I know all the medical world swear the guys findings was basically a pack off lies but to experince what i have so far with my son im finding this hard to swallow.

Just really looking for views and opinions really.

[Brodar]

Hi i never allowed my son to have his MMR until 2 months after his 2nd birthday. I had personal reasons for delaying him having it as my nephew is Autistic. Giving him the MMR was the worst mistake of my life as 4 hours after having the MMR we were in A & E with a very ill boy. We eventually had to take him to Raigmore where the staff admitted he had had an allergic reaction to the MMR. He had a high temperature and roughly 15 mouth ulsers which prevented him eating or drinking. He was ill for about a week. He was called last week to have his MMR booster but that wont be happening.

This could be a rare thing that happened to my boy but none of the reactions were told to me before they stuck a needle in him.

[NickInTheNorth]

Measles, mumps, rubella all cause serious medical conditions and can kill - absolute undisputed fact.

MMR causes autism - Wakefield has been proven to be a totally unscrupulous charlatan.

Your call.

[NickInTheNorth]

Hi i never allowed my son to have his MMR until 2 months after his 2nd birthday. I had personal reasons for delaying him having it as my nephew is Autistic. Giving him the MMR was the worst mistake of my life as 4 hours after having the MMR we were in A & E with a very ill boy. We eventually had to take him to Raigmore where the staff admitted he had had an allergic reaction to the MMR. He had a high temperature and roughly 15 mouth ulsers which prevented him eating or drinking. He was ill for about a week. He was called last week to have his MMR booster but that wont be happening.

This could be a rare thing that happened to my boy but none of the reactions were told to me before they stuck a needle in him.

Measles kills!

Your call

[Brodar]

I know measles kills and both my sons have had the first MMR jab just not had the booster. I asked the doctor why the booster was needed and was told that the 1st jab does not work on every child. I asked for an immunity test and the reply. TOO EXPENSIVE.
Its a simple blood test.

[Shadow]

I was given the MMR jab when I was little, am now 18, near enough 19 and have had nothing wrong with me whatsoever. No Measles, Mumps, Rubella or Autism.

[telfordstar]

Thank you for your replys Ive researched this so much my head hurts with it all. I cannot get it out my head about my oldest son. As his mum I knew exactly when he changed from a happy go lucky wee boy to a tasmanian devil and that was after that jab. I have a doc phoning me tomorrow to chat yet again about it and will bring up the individual jabs.

[telfordstar]

Hi i never allowed my son to have his MMR until 2 months after his 2nd birthday. I had personal reasons for delaying him having it as my nephew is Autistic. Giving him the MMR was the worst mistake of my life as 4 hours after having the MMR we were in A & E with a very ill boy. We eventually had to take him to Raigmore where the staff admitted he had had an allergic reaction to the MMR. He had a high temperature and roughly 15 mouth ulsers which prevented him eating or drinking. He was ill for about a week. He was called last week to have his MMR booster but that wont be happening.

This could be a rare thing that happened to my boy but none of the reactions were told to me before they stuck a needle in him.

Oh what a terrible story I really feel for you. How is your son now if you dont mind me asking?

[balto]

i have 4 kids and 3 out the 4 have all had their mmr, the 4th gets his on the 1st of march, i have never hesitated for 1 minute in giving it, because what it protects against is far worse than the small risk that goes with having it, its like the swine flu jab, both my boys have had it as they are under 5, just wish my girls could get it aswell.

[wickscorrie]

i'd go for individual jabs

however all 3 of mine had the mmr but there was no hisory of autism or adhd in the family. If there had been i would have requested the individuals which spaced out should allow for peace of mind, and provide the cover for the illnesses
good luck and support for your decision your his mum stand up for your choice

[annemarie482]

both my 3yr old son and 1 yr old daughter have had the jab, as did i and my brother and sisters. wee fever afterwards then done.
i do think though with autism and adhd, that it could be coincidence as it can be first noticed around the age of immunization. how are we to know the child didn't already have it as most are undetected until early education age.
just my opinion.

[roadbowler]

i would say go with your intuition. You seem that your intuition is saying not too. I think you are right. I didn't give it to my bairn. Never even considered it. Well done for not swallowing the rubbish about dr. Wakefield. Big pharma has everyone in their pockets. There is NO evidence that the jab even works. Measles died out in this country well before it was introduced. There is now a new type of measles only the vaccinated get. It is called atypical measles. If your child is otherwise healthy with no underlying medical problems, measles is not a deadly disease to them. Measles deaths are largely due to vitamin A deficiency. Danish study now confirms suppression of measles with vaccines and drugs causes dermatitis, arthritis and cancer later in life. Mumps outbreaks happen sometimes. In the unvaccinated AND the vaccinated. It is not harmful generally. There is a minute chance some boys may have some complications, especially when they catch it when older. Catching mumps actually reduces girls' risk of ovarian cancer. Rubella you probably wouldn't even know your child had if they had it. It is a fairly mild disease It is not a harmful disease to children. It may only be harmful to pregnant women. Look at the ingredients, the toxins, and foreign animal proteins in this thing. In my opinion, the effects of the toxins and animal proteins injected into the body are a much bigger risk to take than the effect of any of these diseases.

[balto]

but if the percentage of kids who gets the mmr falls below a certain figure, then all kids are at risk, wheather they have had it or not.

[nancypotter45]

i'd go for individual jabs

however all 3 of mine had the mmr but there was no hisory of autism or adhd in the family. If there had been i would have requested the individuals which spaced out should allow for peace of mind, and provide the cover for the illnesses
good luck and support for your decision your his mum stand up for your choice


I agree I would go with individual jabs with the experience you had with your son. My daughter had MMR jab at two and a half and is now nine, with no effects. I really feel for you as I delayed her having the jab as I wasn't sure about it.

[snow]

I have my own views on the matter... but from experience I'd say to avoid the mumps jab if you're going seperate.
There was an outbreak of mumps at my uni, a long while after the childhood mumps jab had mostly worn off. It's a lot worse to catch it when you're older for a bloke! All the lads who caught it had the serious risk of losing their fertillity. It's pretty harmless if you have it as a child, and you have immunity for life that doesn't wear off and need a booster.

[ShelleyCowie]

Athrun had his MMR just over a week ago, he hates injections as it is but i was always told it was safe, until after he had the injection :roll: (And after him calling the Nurse "BAD")

Ever since he has had the jab he really hasnt been himself. He is alot more gurny than usual, not sleeping well at all, gone off food quite a bit (apart from chocolate of course)

Im now kinda regretting him getting it to be honest. It really has put him off his way. if he is not back to his normal self soon i will be down at the docs with him.

[annemarie482]

shelly, mine both were fine after a fortnight. they say its usually around the 7th to 10th day the fever hits them. it'll pass. :)

[roadbowler]

but if the percentage of kids who gets the mmr falls below a certain figure, then all kids are at risk, wheather they have had it or not.

Well, let.s think about that. The theory is that when given a vaccine, the bodies immune system then reacts by producing antibodies. Thus, making you immune to catching the disease. That.s the theory. So, if you are immune what difference does it make if 50% of the population are not vaccinated or are vaccinated for that matter and catch the disease? If vaccines actually do work, what would you be worried about? The herd immunity theory was put out by a guy named Hedrich in the 1930's sometime and he was theorising on natural disease processes NOT vaccinations. Herd immunity has nothing to do with vaccination and it is misinformation to tell anybody that.

[Stavro]

MMR causes autism - Wakefield has been proven to be a totally unscrupulous charlatan.

No he hasn't.

[chaz]

My son aged nearly 3 had the mmr jab,within hours he was in hospital very ill,his character changed and it became every parents worst nightmare,We had weeks of illness befor my once happy little boy with speach and laughter turned into a sullen withdrawn child. He was diagnosed autistic within 6 months.I know for definate the mmr changed him.
It is everyones own decision to do what they belive is the best for thier child and most children are fine with it.
Compensation has been given out to some who have been affected,and to me this suggests mmr is not as safe as people are led to believe.
I know a life long disability is hard and heart breaking for all concerned,but so is the death of a child or young person.

[davem]

Wakefield's work was interesting in that it was looking more broadly than the MMR vaccine. I think he was less than systematic and detached in his methods; but the ferocity with which the medical establishment went after him was very much as a result of his questioning orthodox views.
Herd immunity is a valid concept, if 90% of the population is immune there is a far lower incidence of the infection. So if as an individual you choose not to immunise you still benefit from the many that do. You have to live with the choice but it is your choice to make.
I have worked with many children who were damaged by rubella and met a child as damaged as you could be by measles. These cases of major harm are indeed very rare but the effects can be unbelievably grave.
After years of study and interest in science I am of the view that just because something cannot be proved it is not necessarily untrue, no one has found the right question yet. Most of the people who choose not to go the MMR route know someone who feels their child was affected adversely, if that is a family member then perhaps they are the very people who ought not to, if there is a link. I still feel it is harsh that the single injection choice is made so difficult.

[cuddlepop]

Whats everyones views on this?

Heres my dilema. I have a son who is just past 2 years old. I havnt let him have the mmr jab yet as im having some issues with it. I have a 9 year old who suffers fro ADHD. I can pinpoint the time of change with him to the time of the mmr jab. I know all the medical world swear the guys findings was basically a pack off lies but to experince what i have so far with my son im finding this hard to swallow.

Just really looking for views and opinions really.

In my opinion if you have a genetic disposition to an autistic condition in the family please dont give your child the MMR jab.

This is early science and I have no link but the evidence I have gathered over 18 years would indicate genetics play a major part in developing this condition.
Something is "wrong" with their immune system and they just cant cope with the triple vaccine.

My daughters autistic,my brother and his son.My xhusband also has a nephew.
My own son will not be given this mmr to his child its just not worth the risk and will be giving it single vaccines.
Living with an autistic child is stressful,heartbreaking,intensive and rewarding all at the same time.

Doctor Wakefield was "hung out to dry" nothing he did to those children was against the wishes of the parents.
Be honest, the medical profession does not want a link to be proven think of the compensation payouts.:~(

[onecalledk]

hi there

you know your son better than anyone else, if your instinct is NOT to give him the MMR then go with that. My son has never had the MMR and also did not get the booster. I realise that Measles kills as do other diseases but it is not set in stone that a child with measles will die. This is a childhood disease and if my child caught measles then nature would do what nature does. HOWEVER if something were to happen to my child after i decided to let a doctor inject him with a manmade vaccine then i couldnt forgive myself.

I remember it well when I sat in front of the doctor and told her i was refusing the MMR , her words "so you are quite prepared to let your child die from measles then".... this was neither true, helpful or professional!

There is and always will be controversy around the MMR , EVERY human being on the planet is different in their make up so it is not true to say that the vaccine is safe for EVERYONE. Unfortunately parents will continue to get conflicting advise from all corners.

As i said in my opening reply , YOU know your son, trust your instincts .....

K

[Vistravi]

Whats everyones views on this?

Heres my dilema. I have a son who is just past 2 years old. I havnt let him have the mmr jab yet as im having some issues with it. I have a 9 year old who suffers fro ADHD. I can pinpoint the time of change with him to the time of the mmr jab. I know all the medical world swear the guys findings was basically a pack off lies but to experince what i have so far with my son im finding this hard to swallow.

Just really looking for views and opinions really.


I had it and i was fine. But one of my collegues said she would give the mmr in seperate injections not as one as there was no link between autsim(sp) and the seperate injections but there is with the mmr.

[telfordstar]

i have 4 kids and 3 out the 4 have all had their mmr, the 4th gets his on the 1st of march, i have never hesitated for 1 minute in giving it, because what it protects against is far worse than the small risk that goes with having it, its like the swine flu jab, both my boys have had it as they are under 5, just wish my girls could get it aswell.


I really wouldnt say that either adhd or autism is a small risk. As for the swine flu jab what a huge mountain out of a mole hill that was no where near enough research has been done on that vacination for kids ast all so ne never got thst either.

[telfordstar]

hi there

you know your son better than anyone else, if your instinct is NOT to give him the MMR then go with that. My son has never had the MMR and also did not get the booster. I realise that Measles kills as do other diseases but it is not set in stone that a child with measles will die. This is a childhood disease and if my child caught measles then nature would do what nature does. HOWEVER if something were to happen to my child after i decided to let a doctor inject him with a manmade vaccine then i couldnt forgive myself.

I remember it well when I sat in front of the doctor and told her i was refusing the MMR , her words "so you are quite prepared to let your child die from measles then".... this was neither true, helpful or professional!

There is and always will be controversy around the MMR , EVERY human being on the planet is different in their make up so it is not true to say that the vaccine is safe for EVERYONE. Unfortunately parents will continue to get conflicting advise from all corners.

As i said in my opening reply , YOU know your son, trust your instincts .....

K


Thank you. This is the excat way im feeling but folk make out that you really couldnt give a monkeys about you child. Obviously docters will say its safe its their job thats why drug companys line their pockets to do. My eldest son was 18m when he got mmr and ive deliberatly left my youngest to as late as i could to see what like a boy he turned out to be but im not prepared to experiment on him to prove anything. My daughter who is 6 and also had mmr is having quite a few speach and other problems as will a link maybe. Theres a nephew on my husbands side who also has adhd as well. Im going to listen to all the doc says but my head and heart is saying no!!!


Thank you all for you opinions its been very interesting hearing views.

[Vistravi]

I really wouldnt say that either adhd or autism is a small risk. As for the swine flu jab what a huge mountain out of a mole hill that was no where near enough research has been done on that vacination for kids ast all so ne never got thst either.


Thank you. This is the excat way im feeling but folk make out that you really couldnt give a monkeys about you child. Obviously docters will say its safe its their job thats why drug companys line their pockets to do. My eldest son was 18m when he got mmr and ive deliberatly left my youngest to as late as i could to see what like a boy he turned out to be but im not prepared to experiment on him to prove anything. My daughter who is 6 and also had mmr is having quite a few speach and other problems as will a link maybe. Theres a nephew on my husbands side who also has adhd as well. Im going to listen to all the doc says but my head and heart is saying no!!!


Thank you all for you opinions its been very interesting hearing views.


Very true about the swine flu jab. I decided not to have it through lack of research and i wasn't going to put my unborn child in risk of something i knew nothing about.

You can give your son the mmr in single injections and he is still protected from the diseases. There isn't a link to autism or ADHD to the single injections. It's what i will do with my baby.

[Vistravi]

Athrun had his MMR just over a week ago, he hates injections as it is but i was always told it was safe, until after he had the injection :roll: (And after him calling the Nurse "BAD")

Ever since he has had the jab he really hasnt been himself. He is alot more gurny than usual, not sleeping well at all, gone off food quite a bit (apart from chocolate of course)

Im now kinda regretting him getting it to be honest. It really has put him off his way. if he is not back to his normal self soon i will be down at the docs with him.


Your facebook description was funny lol. I've never heard a child take such a bad reaction to a needle like he did. I'm sure he'll be back to normal soon.

[kgs]

It is such a dilema as no matter what you decide it has consequences for all those around you. There is always the niggling doubt that your doing the right thing giving any vaccine but I know that what persuaded me to go ahead with MMR was the herd immunity theory. I met someone whos child (age4) couldnt have MMR due to having a transplant. Due to the very low MMR uptake in her area there was a measles outbreak and both her kids got it, the 4 year old is now blind and her newborn ended up with hearing problems. I couldnt have lived with myself knowing I could have contributed towards something like that and I know how angry I would have felt in her situation. Doctors can give advice and reassurance, they are not employed by drug companies and do not directly receive any money from them! It is your decision and a difficult one to make. If I had decided against it I was prepared to pay privately for single vaccines so as mine and other kids would still be protected.

[roadbowler]

well, your friend is either extremely unlucky as even statistically this is quite a phenomenol occurrence or it is possible that they did not have measles at all and some other type of infection. October to december of 2004 there was a measles 'outbreak' in england and wales. There were 589 diagnoses. 400ish were actually recorded as notified. However, after all these diagnosed cases were actually tested only 8 were actually confirmed measles cases. That is a 74 times rate of overdiagnosis! This happens during every measles 'outbreak' in the uk of late.

[roadbowler]

davem, if you look at the herd immunity theory you will find that the theory is based on what would happen if the disease took its natural course. It has nothing to do with vaccination. The purveyors of the vaccines twist this theory and use it to demonise those who choose not to vaccinate because they know quite simply that the efficacy rates of vaccines are very low or none at all. Which is one reason why they give boosters rather than antibody tests. People are supposed to believe blindly that they are protected when research shows those they test for antibodies the results are staggering. More than half in every study do not have the antibodies. Having the antibodies does not mean much either. Antibodies does not mean immunity! There is much more to the immune system than that, and important physiological processes are bypassed by introducing live or killed viruses via injection into the bloodstream. They use the herd immunity theory to place the blame on the unvaccinated. Take measles for instance. An unvaccinated child gets measles these days and the complications are rare now in healthy children and then they have lifelong immunity however, an unvaccinated child may pass measles to an vaccinated child. The vaccinated child will develop 'atypical measles' which is more severe and has more likelihood that they will develop complications and perhaps die. On top of this, the vaccinated child may contract atypical measles several times. So, it is obvious the vaccinated child is more at risk from complications and death from measles than the unvaccinated.

[changilass]

If its so obvious that the vaccinated child is at more risk than the unvaccinated child, then can you explain why they still use vaccines?

Surely you cannot be the only one that knows these 'facts'. Why has there not been a major rethink. Its not as if the vaccines are free, so the governemtn could save a fortune by not vaccinating.

[StacNKel]

I have 2 kids age 8 and 6... both of which had the MMR... they had a slight fever on the 10th day after but that was it. I think i have to agree with what everyone says just go with your own feelings on it... you know whats best for your child.

[rob1]

Would we even be having this thread if it was anyother vaccination? There has never been published link between autism and the MMR jag. Dr Wakefields paper even says that there is no proven link. It was only after publication that he said it would be better for single jags until more reaserch was done. Guess what, loads more research has been done and low and behold....no link.

[chaz]

Would we even be having this thread if it was anyother vaccination? There has never been published link between autism and the MMR jag. Dr Wakefields paper even says that there is no proven link. It was only after publication that he said it would be better for single jags until more reaserch was done. Guess what, loads more research has been done and low and behold....no link.

There is definatly a link in my case, and in others.I have written evidence that the mmr affected my son and will always have the guilt that i said yes to him having the vaccination[disgust]

[davem]

Well roadbowler - obviously the intention of vaccination is to put as many children at risk as possible.
A population that is immune to a degree from a particular infection will obviously not secumb as readily as one that is not. You clearly have your own theory, I have mine - please don't waste any further energy pointing out the error of my ways I am happy with the world view I hold.
Science is inexact, changes in socialisation and interaction are most noticed around when MMR is recommended. Parents across the land have felt there was a strong association with MMR and later difficulties in their child's development. I choose to believe my children will benefit from the many around them who have had the MMR and made my choices accordingly.
The whole point of the thread is should you or should you not, many parents I have met associated a marked change in their child's persona to that specific time, that is a limited sample of the population as I used to work with children who needed extra support. Many diseases are now things of the past, vaccination should be a choice freely made, if given all the information around the choice is made; no pressure should be applied.

[Sianymo]

Doctors can give advice and reassurance, they are not employed by drug companies and do not directly receive any money from them!




The Doctors may not be employed directly by the drug companies but they do receive a payment for each head/injection given.. same goes for the seasonal flu jab.. Why do you think they push it so hard?

[poppett]

In 1959 I was vaccinated against whooping cough along with the rest of my class...........five days later I was too ill to be moved to hospital and was nursed at home from whooping cough and took months to recover, and still have the "whoop" when I cough to this day.

I also reacted badly to a tetanus jag in 1971 having developed similar mild symptoms to lockjaw, and have never allowed a vaccination needle near me since.

Medics decided I must have a "natural inbuilt immuity".

[Amy-Winehouse]

My oldest son has autism and to this day im still wary about the MMR jag. Prior to having this jag my son waved and was saying bye bye then he had the jag and stopped speaking!!!

I am now in the same postion with my 18 month old he hasnt had his mmr yet!! and wont be getting it untill i see speech and what i mean by that is sentences. And i am still thinking about going for the single injections but at this moment in time the mmr is a no go.

[roadbowler]

If its so obvious that the vaccinated child is at more risk than the unvaccinated child, then can you explain why they still use vaccines?

Surely you cannot be the only one that knows these 'facts'. Why has there not been a major rethink. Its not as if the vaccines are free, so the governemtn could save a fortune by not vaccinating.
yes, but, how many nhs administrators are in the pockets of big pharma? The doctors do what they are told by whatever nhs guidelines are put out. I forget who said at the top that doctors are not paid by pharmaceutical companies. Well, indirectly they are. Practices receive bonuses for a certain percentage of uptake for the mmr. Paid by the nhs administrators who decide which companies vaccine they choose. An even sadder fact that gps even go as far as saying what they said to onecalledk above. It isn't like Dr. Wakefield is the only doctor claiming a link between autism, crohns disease and persistent measles infection in the vaccinated. besides, in my view, the mothers know more than any doctor about changes in their bairns after vaccines. I'm sure our own Chaz here has had her claims poo poo'd more than once by a doctor. That IS sad. I've seen many say even just here how the child will present with a fever, crying, general gurniness, decreased appetite, sleeplessness etc. Now, if you went into a doctor presenting these symptoms on any other occasion than post-vaccination they wouldn't just send you home with some calpol. They'd be suspecting encephalopathy or etc,etc,etc and would be keeping the child in for tests as these symptoms are worrying indeed. I agree everyones got to make their choices but, bit difficult when your own gp basically tells you, oh, you want your child to die from measles then? As pointed out above in onecalledks' post? Not to mention the absolute rubbish about the herd immunity theory. Changi, yes why haven't they had a major rethink on the polio vaccine for example? It is well known, sometimes even called the biggest medical "blunder" of all time, millions, perhaps tens of millions of americans and europeans were infected with cancer causing sv-40 virus in the polio vaccine in the mid 1950's til the 1960's. Sv-40 though is still showing up in bloodwork of children currently that are suffering certain cancers. Lots of countries HAVE had massive rethinks on vaccination. Some have stopped certain vaccination programs altogether! Ie. Sweden and whooping cough and many others. So, obviously it's not just me that has these "facts". It's all out there if you can bear to look into the facts.

[Leanne]

It's all out there if you can bear to look into the facts.

Child post polio infection...

http://www.southstaffordshirepct.nhs.uk/images/yourHealth/vacs/polio.jpg

[_Ju_]

but if the percentage of kids who gets the mmr falls below a certain figure, then all kids are at risk, wheather they have had it or not.

You are right. It's what is called heard health/immunity by vets.

[_Ju_]

Athrun had his MMR just over a week ago, he hates injections as it is but i was always told it was safe, until after he had the injection :roll: (And after him calling the Nurse "BAD")

Ever since he has had the jab he really hasnt been himself. He is alot more gurny than usual, not sleeping well at all, gone off food quite a bit (apart from chocolate of course)

Im now kinda regretting him getting it to be honest. It really has put him off his way. if he is not back to his normal self soon i will be down at the docs with him.

All children reacting to the vaccination develope a fever. The nurse will advise you what you can give him for it.....

[_Ju_]

I really wouldnt say that either adhd or autism is a small risk. As for the swine flu jab what a huge mountain out of a mole hill that was no where near enough research has been done on that vacination for kids ast all so ne never got thst either.

The small risk is of the adverse reaction happening, not of the individual imapact of the adverse reaction. Autism/adhd are have a huge impact on the individual and their families. The likelihood of it ocurring with a mmr jab is very small.

[roadbowler]

leanne, i'm well aware of what polio does. My uncle is extremely crippled from it. Does this excuse infecting millions of people with sv-40? Is medical sciences' answer to polio, which is still around, to infect potentially more people with an even deadlier virus that causes cancer? Yes, polio is still here and active. However, it's not called polio anymore. Diagnostic criteria was conveniently changed after the vaccine came out. Sounds crazy aye but, look into it for yourself!

[toodiemac]

Quite interesting information about the ingredients in this vaccine - something everybody should know from reading the patient information leaflet which comes with the vaccine, but I'm sure some parents are not handed the leaflet to read before agreeing to the jab.

It's not a scare tactic (like somebody said earlier about the doctor saying their child would die from measles), it's just the facts.

MMR

This injection is given between the ages of 12 and 15 months, and is to vaccinate against three quite mild childhood illnesses, measles, mumps and rubella.
It contains: Live measles virus, mumps virus, rubella virus, sorbitol, sodium phosphate, sucrose, gelatine, human albumin, chick embryos, foetal bovine serum (aborted calf baby), human diploid cell (aborted human baby), neomycin (as stated in MMR 2 manufacturer’s data sheet, Merck, Sharp and Dohme LTD).

Why are there so many chemicals in vaccines?

To start with, a virus or bacteria cannot grow without unclean conditions (much the same as a naturally occurring illness cannot take hold in the body without a diseased condition already being present). To manufacture a vaccine virus, they therefore have to use animal or human tissue and blood products to grow the virus or bacteria on.
They also have to add preservatives (which until recently was thimerosal, a Mercury compound. It is used in the manufacturing process, just not as an actual added ingredient), or something like 2-phenoxyethanol, which is the main ingredient of anti-freeze.
They then have to put in antibiotics, such as neomycin or polymyxin to stop the child getting a vaccine site infection, and to prevent bacteria from spreading round the internal organs (known as vaccinia). This would be a more common problem if antibiotics weren’t routinely added.
As well as this, if the vaccine contains ‘killed’ or inactive viruses, then they will add in a substance to render the virus dead, usually formaldehyde, which is one of the world’s most toxic substances and is carcinogenic. There are also additional PH buffering chemicals, emulsifiers, adsorbers and stabilizers sometimes known as vaccine 'excipients', for example, Octoxynol 9, polysorbate 20 and 80 and Sodium borate.
Finally, they include adjuvants, such as aluminium or other heavy metals. They put in adjuvants to kick the immune system into producing more antibodies.
The child would never produce a readable antibody level to any of the vaccine virus, so they have to put in extremely toxic adjuvants like aluminium so that the antibody response will increase. The child is then thought to be ‘immune’ to the diseases, when in all reality, he or she is probably just reacting to heavy metals.

What side-effects can these chemicals cause?

2-Phenoxyethanol: This is the ingredient that has replaced thimerosal. It can cause systematic poisoning, headache, shock, weakness, convulsions, kidney damage, kidney failure, cardiac failure, death.
The Ethylene Oxide component is a skin irritant also responsible for causing burns, blisters, dermatitis, and eczema conditions (according to vaccine data sheet toxicology notes and Marshall Sittig, Handbook of Toxic and Hazardous Chemicals and Carcinogens, 2nd Ed. (Park Ridge, NJ: Noyes Publications, 1985).

Aluminium: Aluminium is a carcinogen, that is capable of causing cancer. The bureau of Biologics stated that ‘there is little doubt that some of the material containing aluminium as an adjuvant appears to be carcinogenic…’
In animal tests, it caused fibrosarcomas at the injection site. (You can read more about this in Jamie Murphy’s book, ‘What Every Parent Should Know About Immunization’, Earth Healing Products).

Aluminium has also been linked to memory loss, lack of concentration, dementia and other brain injuries.

Formaldehyde: Formaldehyde is a class 1 carcinogen, labelled by the Environmental Protection Agency in the US as a ‘hazardous waste.’
According to Dr. Penny Stanway, famous author of ‘Breast Is Best’ and ‘Green Babies’, ‘sensitivity to formaldehyde has been linked with eye, nose, throat and lung irritation, headaches, depression, memory loss and dizziness. 1 in 5 people exposed to formaldehyde may be affected…’
She goes onto say in a chapter about vaccination, that ‘Parents in a green family come up against a difficult decision, whether to submit their child to immunisation..in affect, the decision comes down to a choice between what is best for your child and what is best for everyone else’s children. From a green point of view, the latter might be the preferred choice.’
Clearly, this shows that even doctors themselves are sometimes unaware of the toxic ingredients in vaccines, they simply administer them.

Neomycin and other antibiotics: These suppress the immune system, leaving the child more susceptible to colds and virus. Some children are also allergic to them. Repeated use of antibiotics can render them ineffective against major illnesses such as meningitis. They have also been linked with the rise in allergies such as asthma and eczema.

Octoxynol 9 contains glycol ether which is toxic and has been directly linked to infertility problems in men. Namely low sperm count, abnormally shaped sperm and sperm with poor motility. Painters and decorators in particular have been warned not to work with paints containing glycol, yet it is happily injected into male babies.

Polysorbate 20 and 80 are detergent type chemicals. After injection they convert into sorbitol and ethylene oxide which is more toxic than the original chemical. It can cause changes in heart function, infections of the blood/brain barrier, seizures and even death.

Polysorbate 80 is also a known infertility agent used by the Population Council of WHO in the development of anti-pregnancy vaccines since the 1960's. See my article on this website here:

http://infertility.suite101.com/article.cfm/polysorbate_80_causes_infertility

Sodium Borate is neuro toxic and not meant for internal use, yet it is used in some vaccines, including the new Gardasil vaccine for cervical cancer. At a cellular level it can cause changes to DNA. Symptoms include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, flushed skin, changes in respiration and pulse, lethargy, seizures, shock, metabolic acidosis, vascular collapse and death. It can also cause mental illness such as depression, mental confusion and hyperactivity. It may be a clue as to why there are so many children with depression and behaviour disorders.

This study, (Gordon AS ; Prichard JS ; Freedman MH
Can. Med. Assoc. J.; VOL 108 ISS Mar 17 1973, P719-721, 724, (REF 6) [IPA]) reported that when 2 infants had their soothers dipped in sodium borate and honey, they developed seizure disorders.

Another study, (Brit. Med. J.; 2(5705), 314, 1970; (REF:11)) cited the case of a baby who died as a result of sodium borate in his disposible nappy/diaper and several other babies who became seriously ill. The British Pediatrics Association called for sodium borate not to be used during infancy, yet it is sometimes in vaccines.

Animal Products and Human Foetal Tissue: Children produce antibodies to ALL elements of the vaccine, not simply the viruses, so children vaccinated with gelatine containing vaccines can sometimes develop allergies to food stuffs containing gelatine. There is also a risk of transmission of BSE and the human form, CJD, if bovine serum is used, and contamination of vaccine with animal diseases (such as Simian Virus 40, found in Polio vaccines). Because they enter the blood stream, they are also capable of permanently altering our DNA.
This is why some vaccinologist’s prefer to use human tissue for vaccines. However, using human foetal tissue also presents problems, as the recipient can then develop antibodies to human tissue, which results in auto-immunity, whereby the person’s body attacks its own nerves and brain cells.

[telfordstar]

My oldest son has autism and to this day im still wary about the MMR jag. Prior to having this jag my son waved and was saying bye bye then he had the jag and stopped speaking!!!

I am now in the same postion with my 18 month old he hasnt had his mmr yet!! and wont be getting it untill i see speech and what i mean by that is sentences. And i am still thinking about going for the single injections but at this moment in time the mmr is a no go.


Im glad you posted on this as i was considering private messaging you on here to hear your views as i know your son has autism. Had a lenghly talk with a doctor today and My son isnt having the mmr now to at least nursery time and even then if i do go ahead with it i will be going for the single vacination regardless of the cost.

I get the dangers of not having mmr as ether one espcially meseals in worst case can cause death but whos to say in years to come he may well( and i hope he dosnt) come down with diabetes or epilepsy which in worst case either fit can cause death but there aint a immunisation to prevent this!!! Im tearing my hair out over this.

[toodiemac]

If your instinct is telling you not to go ahead with the MMR at the moment, then why not have a really good look at the measles statistics since that's what is worrying you most. Try to find some unbiased information about the disease. Of course it can be a killer, but only in a very small proportion of cases. In 1987 for example, the year before MMR was introduced, 86,000 children caught measles and out of those, 16 died (NHS figures). That was tragic for those 16 children, no denying that, and they most probably had underlying health conditions, but just to put it into perspective,

The odds of being struck by lightning: 1 in 5000
The odds of being killed by terrorist in the US: 1 in 100,000

As for mumps and rubella, well even the NHS states that these are mild childhood illnesses with very little chance of serious side effects.

Yes, no doubt about it, measles is the most serious of the three, but years ago, before the vaccine, parents used to takes their children to 'measles parties' to deliberately infect their children just to get it over and done with, so I'm thinking it can't have been such a scary disease as we believe it is nowadays?

Just to mention a comparison, in countries where they use the chickenpox vaccine as standard, such as the USA, they all seem to think of chickenpox as a major, killer disease and they are very afraid of it! Yes chickenpox can kill, just as measles can, but we aren't scared of chickenpox because the vaccine isn't yet in our childhood vaccination schedule! Most of us have never heard of anybody who has died from chickenpox, ditto measles. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it is very, very rare. :)

[DOLLY30]

I waited and gave my son his MMR at 20 months. Have not given him the swine flu jag, really do not know what to do about this one?

[CK1945]

Hiya,

My thoughts are if you dismiss all the evidence that the MMR is ‘as safe as a vaccine can be’ basing it on the idea that evidence being produced by big pharmaceutical companies must be biased then surely you need to dismiss Dr Wakefield’s research as he was being paid by lawyers to find any evidence that the vaccine causes Autism. He wasn’t an independent researcher by any means and when you are being paid to find a specific result and lo and behold you find it then I consider it to be suspect, especially if none of your peers can find or test it themselves. Even then you got to disregard all the actual independent researchers who are investigating Autism and haven’t found any link at all.

What you are left with is a conspiracy in which not only all the pharmaceutical companies are involved in but also governements and all the smaller independent researchers across the globe along with most doctors and GP's etc and in this day and age of instant news I find that very hard to accept. Same as I find it very difficult to accept that HIV doesn’t cause Aids or that it’s the HIV medication that actually causes Aids or similar medical conspiracies.

Personally I think that we have become too complacent. Most people just accept the measles as an ordinary childhood disease without realizing how devastating it can be (basically because the vaccine was so successful in the past). Also just look at the number of people popping pills without ever either being told or investigating for themselves the possible side effects. Every vaccine carries a risk as does every pill that you take and it is up to you to accept the consequences of either taking the medicine or not.
At the moment I think that not having the MMR is far riskier than having it but I can understand parents reluctance given the totally misleading and sensationalist stance the media takes on issues like this. It is one of the reasons that I decided to stop reading the papers and the news on the telly. Totally irresponsible reporting.

All we can ask of parents is to investigate both sides so at least they can make an informed decision. I found the below link on the Bad Astronomy blog (excellent site BTW) about parents who were anti-vaccine and have now turned into proponents of the MMR vaccine: http://www.skeparent.com/posts/2010/...vaccinate.html (http://www.skeparent.com/posts/2010/1/13/why-we-changed-our-minds-and-started-to-vaccinate.html) – I thought that someone might find it interesting.

Unfortunately we still don’t understand the causes of Autism and I believe that this is the main problem. Instinctively we want to know the causes and when there are none available we start searching for anything that will help us make sense of what is happening. We are getting closer to the answer and I hope that by discovering the cause we will regain our trust in the medical profession and stop kids from dying from entirely preventable diseases like the measles.

[roadbowler]

oh here we go, conspiracies eh? Well, 3 of the top medical journals is the us must be conspiracy theorists. Everyone is still operating on the premise that the vaccine works! There is ample published and respected evidence they do not. 2006 there was a mumps outbreak in the us. 6,584 cases on a college campus. Documented evidence that virtually every single sufferer was vaccinated twice! New England Journal of Medicine, 2008; 358: 1580-9. Outbreak of measles in a highschool in us that had documented proof 98% were vaccinated properly. (there goes your herd immunity theory btw) 70% of cases were considered failures and had a history of measles vacc at 12 months or older. Vaccine failures among apparently adequately vaccinated individuals were sources of infection for at least 48% of cases in the outbreak. no evidence of waning immunity was a contributing factor. American Journal of Public Health 1987 Apr; 77(4): 434-438. A 12 year Finnish study found 7 out of 9 vaccinated children catch measles if sharing a bedroom with an infected sibling or contact with other infected children. They conclude genuine protection may not be achieveable with vaccination. American Journal of Epidemiology 1998 Mikko Paunio

[Leanne]

Vaccines don't prevent you becoming infected they prevent you from having a fullblown outbreak of the disease by allowing your body to recognise it and fight it before it multiplies too much. I've been vaccinated against measles and still had it - but it wasn't as serious as my sisters. She was pre-vaccination age and was hospitalised for 2 weeks in paediatric icu when she caught it from me.

Herd immunity only prevents spread if enough people are immunised to halt the spread. Once the spread has started nothing but our own immunities can stop it :(

[Red]

Putting aside the fact that there is no proven link between autism and the MMR jab.

Putting aside the coincidence of autism manifesting itself in the same time span of a child's life that the MMR jab is administered.

Putting aside the (what can be described at best) circumstantial evidence that everyone appears to know someone who developed autism shortly after having had the MMR jab.

Putting aside all those people who haven't had the MMR jab and developed autism regardless.

I would sooner have an autistic child than a dead child...:~(

[cuddlepop]

Putting aside the fact that there is no proven link between autism and the MMR jab.

Putting aside the coincidence of autism manifesting itself in the same time span of a child's life that the MMR jab is administered.

Putting aside the (what can be described at best) circumstantial evidence that everyone appears to know someone who developed autism shortly after having had the MMR jab.

Putting aside all those people who haven't had the MMR jab and developed autism regardless.

I would sooner have an autistic child than a dead child...:~(


While I agree with what you have said there have been cases when the mother has actually killed her autistic child.
Its justtoo difficult to carry on and with major cuts on the Social Work budget I dread to think what its going to be like.Its bad eneogh now.


until you live with autism you havent a clue what its like.:~(

[chaz]

Putting aside the fact that there is no proven link between autism and the MMR jab.

Putting aside the coincidence of autism manifesting itself in the same time span of a child's life that the MMR jab is administered.

Putting aside the (what can be described at best) circumstantial evidence that everyone appears to know someone who developed autism shortly after having had the MMR jab.

Putting aside all those people who haven't had the MMR jab and developed autism regardless.

I would sooner have an autistic child than a dead child...:~(

I agree with the fact autistic is better than dead, but not with some of the rest of your post, but as you say putting these aside :confused

[chaz]

While I agree with what you have said there have been cases when the mother has actually killed her autistic child.
Its justtoo difficult to carry on and with major cuts on the Social Work budget I dread to think what its going to be like.Its bad eneogh now.


until you live with autism you havent a clue what its like.:~(

Best post so far, as its so easy for others to judge and be experts.The reality is harsh on a daily basis but we learn to cope the best we can :)

[redeyedtreefrog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjBlzKWpko0

[Red]

until you live with autism you havent a clue what its like.

Okay point taken.

Until you live without a child who has died you haven't a clue what it's like.

[cuddlepop]

until you live with autism you havent a clue what its like.

Okay point taken.

Until you live without a child who has died you haven't a clue what it's like.

We are discussing the MMR vaccine and not a child death.

I have been in a position whereby my child had to have life saving heart surgery so had a brief moment with "death" when she was on the heart lung machine but I knew without this op she would have died.

Children wont die if they dont have the MMR vaccine there is an alternative.Parents should be given that joice ,especially if autism is in the family.:~(

[Vistravi]

We are discussing the MMR vaccine and not a child death.

I have been in a position whereby my child had to have life saving heart surgery so had a brief moment with "death" when she was on the heart lung machine but I knew without this op she would have died.

Children wont die if they dont have the MMR vaccine there is an alternative.Parents should be given that joice ,especially if autism is in the family.:~(

Exactly cuddlepop. I will not be allowing our child to have the MMR jag due to the fact that my brother is austistic(sp) I will be vacinated our child against the dieseases the MMR is supposed to vacinate them against but through single injections only.

[redeyedtreefrog]

http://www.northbynorthwestern.com/2010/02/66626/why-you-should-care-about-vaccines-and-autism/

[Red]

I know we were discussing the MMR vaccine and my point is that I would not want to risk my child's life.

This post was originally about different people's opinions - that was my opinion, I'm sorry if you didn't like it or it caused you undue offence. My intention was not to change the thread.

If in the unfortunate event that something happened following my child having any vaccine I could still hold my hand on my heart and know that I was pro-active in trying to do the best for my child. Rather than suffer from guilt for eternity wondering "what if...?"

[chaz]

dont think anyone until its happened to them really knows how they would feel ! Also its ok for non parents to come up with a load of statistics but they dont have the same sort of parental instinct either!
No disrespect ment to anyone x

[redeyedtreefrog]

dont think anyone until its happened to them really knows how they would feel ! Also its ok for non parents to come up with a load of statistics but they dont have the same sort of parental instinct either!
No disrespect ment to anyone x

Jenny McCarthy uses her "Mommy Instinct" (which isn't real) to cover up the crap she produces.

Here's a count of vaccine-preventable deaths in America since June 07: http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/

[chaz]

Jenny McCarthy uses her "Mommy Instinct" (which isn't real) to cover up the crap she produces.

Here's a count of vaccine-preventable deaths in America since June 07: http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/

I have first hand experiance of doing what i thought best for my child,i also still have his red book and various letters confirming my sons condition after the vaccine,and leading on to his total loss of speach,behavioral problems,and becoming withdrawn .
I was heart broken to see the changes,it nearly destroyed my family,
and has altered all our lives.
Maybe mines all crap also, but it doesnt pay to be a sheep in all situations.

[roadbowler]

Vaccines don't prevent you becoming infected they prevent you from having a fullblown outbreak of the disease by allowing your body to recognise it and fight it before it multiplies too much. I've been vaccinated against measles and still had it - but it wasn't as serious as my sisters. She was pre-vaccination age and was hospitalised for 2 weeks in paediatric icu when she caught it from me.

Herd immunity only prevents spread if enough people are immunised to halt the spread. Once the spread has started nothing but our own immunities can stop it :(
lol. Then they should stop calling them 'immunisations' then, shouldn't they? How long after your measles vacc did you catch measles?? You probably caught measles after being vaccinated because the vaccine does not work as i've illustrated above there is published research to support what i'm putting across. In fact, vaccination against measles has created a more dangerous form of measles that does not respond to treatment, atypical measles. Vaccinated people who have contracted atypical measles sometimes catch it again.

[Leanne]

You probably caught measles after being vaccinated because the vaccine does not work

And you are qualified to state that because?

I caught a mild form of measles 3 and a half years after being vaccinated. To be vaccinated means that you have antibodies from the vaccine to respond the disease more quickly - it doesn't mean you will not get it. You may not get it, you may get it but show no symptoms or you may have the disease in a milder form with a shortened infection time. No vaccine prevents the virus from entering your body - it simply allows the body to respond quicker due to the antibodies that have been produced in response to the vaccine. Natural immunity works far better but as others have pointed out there are ethical issues on injecting human foetal cells. There are also ethical issues on allowing our children to acquire natural immunity due to the morbidity/mortality of some of these diseases.

At the end of the day noone is going to convince each other to change their minds. It's a bit like the foxhunting debate... You choose to do what you feel is safest for your child - and your child lives with the consequences.

Edit - atypical measles only occurs with improper vaccination. Antibody titres will confirm the level of vaccination for the concerned...

Edit - disclaimer - This is my own opinion and doesn't reflect the opinions of my position of employment...

[roadbowler]

Are you seriously going to attempt to argue with the research that proves they do not work? You'd be doing well to revise your position on what you think they say vaccines do. How many people here have been told that eventhough they get the mmr they still won't be protected and still may catch measles anyways? Again, if they do not "immunise" to the disease, why are they called that? Well, as i illustrate in one of the studies i point out above, if people adequately vaccinated for measles gets you measles anyways and inadequate vaccination gets you a worse form of measles that you may get over and over, nevermind subjecting your body to toxins and foreign animal proteins that carry risks such as autism and autoimmune diseases, isn't it therefore the rational choice to rely on natural passive immunity during the first year and natural active lifelong immunity if you perchance contract the illness later? As a scientist, Leanne, please tell me what exactly is natural about injecting human foetal cells into the body??? I'm not interested in making peoples decisions for them. It is only the parents and their intuition that should tell them what choice to make. However, i'm fed up hearing people proclaim the benefits of vaccines when it does not stand up to scrutiny. I'm fed up of people saying how 'normal' it is to have adverse reactions post-vaccination. Fed up of hearing about parents claims of vaccine damage being poo poo'd from every direction when they know their children and would know if they take a bad reaction off a vaccine. Fed up of watching profit hungry pharmaceutical companies make people sicker to make themselves more money. This is NOT like the foxhunting debate. This is millions and millions of humans (and animals) being subjected to vaccinations around the world that are destroying the health and well being of our species in the name of bad science and greed. Definately not like foxhunting!;)

[Leanne]

Again, if they do not "immunise" to the disease, why are they called that?

As I stated before (read a little about how your body produces antibodies to help you understand a little more) a vaccine does not prevent you from getting the disease, it reduces the pathogenicity of the disease by allowing our body to recognise infection and eliminate it faster.

In my sister's case she caught measles when she was 14 days old. She had no natural immunity as my mum was unable to breastfeed. After the exposure she was very, very poorly to the point of being ventilated. She was well enough to return home after 2 weeks and was fully recovered after 4 weeks.

I was immunised. I caught measles from a friend. I had a mild fever and a bit of a rash and was recovered in a few days as I already had antibodies to the disease in my body.

When the cells in your body identify a pathogen they produce antibodies against it. The antibodies are strong as the the pathogen was 'live' and you will not catch the disease (usually) again. The second time you become infected the antibodies in your blood mop up the pathogen before serious disease can occur.

When you are vaccinated the same process occurs. As the viruses and bacteria have been altered to stop them being infective the body recognises them but not as well as if they had been live. When infection happens the body recognises the pathogen but not as quickly. You may experience some symptoms until all the pathogen is removed. You will not develop the full blown disease though...

Of course this is oversimplified...

[onecalledk]

Are you seriously going to attempt to argue with the research that proves they do not work? You'd be doing well to revise your position on what you think they say vaccines do. How many people here have been told that eventhough they get the mmr they still won't be protected and still may catch measles anyways? Again, if they do not "immunise" to the disease, why are they called that? Well, as i illustrate in one of the studies i point out above, if people adequately vaccinated for measles gets you measles anyways and inadequate vaccination gets you a worse form of measles that you may get over and over, nevermind subjecting your body to toxins and foreign animal proteins that carry risks such as autism and autoimmune diseases, isn't it therefore the rational choice to rely on natural passive immunity during the first year and natural active lifelong immunity if you perchance contract the illness later? As a scientist, Leanne, please tell me what exactly is natural about injecting human foetal cells into the body??? I'm not interested in making peoples decisions for them. It is only the parents and their intuition that should tell them what choice to make. However, i'm fed up hearing people proclaim the benefits of vaccines when it does not stand up to scrutiny. I'm fed up of people saying how 'normal' it is to have adverse reactions post-vaccination. Fed up of hearing about parents claims of vaccine damage being poo poo'd from every direction when they know their children and would know if they take a bad reaction off a vaccine. Fed up of watching profit hungry pharmaceutical companies make people sicker to make themselves more money. This is NOT like the foxhunting debate. This is millions and millions of humans (and animals) being subjected to vaccinations around the world that are destroying the health and well being of our species in the name of bad science and greed. Definately not like foxhunting!;)


agree wholeheartedly with this post! as a race we are playing god too often, by "solving" one problem we invent even more. As I am sat typing this there is an article on the telly about the benefits of GM food ! so where does it stop? we vaccinate and erradicate all known disease, so then we are all safe? a very rose tinted glasses point of view. Mother nature does not work like that, when we muck about with our bodies and our food then the outcome can only be one of something terrible.

There is a lot of disinformation out there, put out deliberately by various sources. Profit is the bottom line in all of this. More vaccines , more money for the companies. More GM food, cheaper to produce, MORE money for the companies ........

We are on a downward spiral as a race unless we stop and think what we are doing and what we are putting into our bodies. Pharmaceutical companies thrive on our fear, fear is what has us all rushing to get vaccinated against these horrible diseases that may or MAY NOT happen to us. Its the fear that drives it and our fear that generates money for them.

At the end of the day we could walk out of our houses tomorrow and get hit by a truck. There is as much chance of that as there is of being struck down by various illnesses. Fear breeds fear.

We should perhaps be listening to our own bodies, make our own decisions and not listen to propaganda put out by companies who will prey on our fear and empty our pockets.

K

[telfordstar]

Just being randon with this but how many other disesases are out there which we/or kids arnt immunised against which can be fatal! No one bats an eyelid to them do they. Doc told me on phone during a very lenghly conversation that the statistics for outbreaks of meseals, mumps and rubellea are very very low and so have decided to leave my sons mmr jab(if i decide that he is to have it) for at least another year so we can watch his devepoement.

[roadbowler]

I was immunised. I caught measles from a friend. I had a mild fever and a bit of a rash and was recovered in a few days as I already had antibodies to the disease in my body.


ok, I'll try to put this as simple as possible. :roll: What you describe above that happened to you is called vaccine failure! As in the vaccine failed, the vaccine did not work, and as I maintain, I am not convinced they work, well, much at all.



A vaccine failure is when an organism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organism) develops a disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease) in spite of being vaccinated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination) against it. Primary vaccine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine) failure occurs when an organism's immune system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_system) does not produce enough antibodies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody) when first vaccinated. Secondary vaccine failure occurs when enough antibodies are produced immediately after the vaccination, but the levels fall over time. While antibody levels always fall over time, this would be a more rapid loss of immunity than expected for that vaccine.

So, fine, we can agree for once! :D You had the measles vaccine, you caught measles. = Vaccine didna work.

As a side note, passive immunity is not just passed from breast milk it is passed to the fetus in the placenta and can last for weeks to months.

Secondly, your description of antibodies and how they work is only half of the story. You are describing the Th2 element of the immune response and completely overlooking the Th1 element. Ie. the detect and attack function of the adenoids, tonsils, etc. You know, the tonsils, the dangly bits in the back of the pharnyx, namely the palatine, that medical doctors in their infinite wisdom routinely remove and toss out like troublesome rubbish when a child suffers recurring tonsilitis? Very, very important function they play in the immune system which vaccination bypasses completely. Could be part of the reason why autoimmune diseases are skyrocketing. Worth looking into!

[balto]

do you know, when i 1st posted my post on this threa, i would never have worried about geting jayden his mmr, but after reading some of the post, im really starting to worry, in my heart i know its best for him to have it, but it has made me think.

[telfordstar]

do you know, when i 1st posted my post on this threa, i would never have worried about geting jayden his mmr, but after reading some of the post, im really starting to worry, in my heart i know its best for him to have it, but it has made me think.


Sorry Balto hope I havnt scared you. I was just looking for other folks opinions and was really pleased with the response ive gotten on here and in private messages im not alone being against it or more not sure.

[Margaret M.]

Guess what, loads more research has been done and low and behold....no link.

Meaningful studies have never been done because pharmaceutical companies will not cooperate. If they have nothing to hide, why would they not welcome the opportunity to remove all suspicion surrounding the MMR vaccine? Their lack of cooperation speaks volumes.

[_Ju_]

By your line of reasoning anyone who has a vaccination should be lactating and mooing, roadbowler.

It's called immunization because a vaccination causes a reaction in your body from the immunity system. The efficacy of a vaccine depends on how well your body reacts to the vaccine. The body is a complex system, so the immune reaction can vary from person to person. Your immune system does not keep high levels of the cells capable to react to a specific disease constantly high. What matters is that the vaccine is given at times when people are more susceptable to certain diseases (for example Reubella age 12/14 to girls before you expect them to become potencial mothers, tetanus every 10 years when you are working in enviroments you are potencially exposed to the germ, childhood diseases when you are a child).
I have seen vaccinations working on animals, so I can only call any take on them being useless as being a load of rubbish. I have seen more than once a whole litter of puppies dying in quick sucession, one after another from parvovirus, because their mother confered them no immunity in the colostrum. I have seen what you would call a vaccination failure because a person with a new puppy would take it to the vet once, it would get it's first parvo shot at 8 weeks, when residual immunity from the mother would neutralize the vaccine. Then for whatever reason (usually the cost), they would choose not to do the booster and show up at the door with a 5 month old puppy with full blown parvovirus. I have known puppies from the same litter in different homes to survive or not according to wether they were vaccinated or not. Yes, these are dogs and not people. But is someone going to tell me that vaccines for our animals are better than the ones produced for us?
Vaccines have saved millions of lives. Vaccination programes have a huge impact on the health of children from poor nations. And all of us are very privledged to live in a country where the health service is so good and acessable to all, that childhood ilnesses are looked on as a minor inconvenience now. And we all have a choice wether or not to vaccinate our own children (even if it means lowering herd immunity). But to base that choice on what you read on anonymous OPINION board is a very very bad idea. For every scientific/medical topic you can think of, you can find scientific/pseudoscientifc papers on the internet that irrefutably prove two opposite truths on that subject.

[balto]

Sorry Balto hope I havnt scared you. I was just looking for other folks opinions and was really pleased with the response ive gotten on here and in private messages im not alone being against it or more not sure.no you havent, it is just some of the experiances after kids have had it, my other 3 were all fine after it, so im sure jayden will be aswell.

[Leanne]

ok, I'll try to put this as simple as possible. :roll:

So, fine, we can agree for once! :D You had the measles vaccine, you caught measles. = Vaccine didna work.

I'll try and put it as simply as possible too. You have no fundamental knowledge as to how vaccines actually work. Just because someone has a mild form of the disease it is not a vaccine failure. It is a success because they didn't have the full blown form of the disease. Have a read up on immunity on a 'proper' site. Or even grab a science book from the library. Educate yourself...






A vaccine failure is when an organism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organism) develops a disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease) in spite of being vaccinated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination) against it. Primary vaccine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine) failure occurs when an organism's immune system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_system) does not produce enough antibodies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody) when first vaccinated. Secondary vaccine failure occurs when enough antibodies are produced immediately after the vaccination, but the levels fall over time. While antibody levels always fall over time, this would be a more rapid loss of immunity than expected for that vaccine.

Quoting wikipaedia is hardly an argument. It isn't peer reviewed and anyone can add to or amend it. Just because it is written on the net doesn't mean it's true.




As a side note, passive immunity is not just passed from breast milk it is passed to the fetus in the placenta and can last for weeks to months.

Time for the less simple stuff I guess...

That isn't actually completely true. There is a barrier between the maternal and foetal system (if there wasn't viruses could pass across and the child become ill - this is why hiv positive mums dont have a hiv positive baby. The breast milk transmits it). Only IgG immunoglobulins can cross the barrier. IgM, IgE and IgA are too large to cross and thus maternal protection from these cannot be offered. IgM is produced as a primary immune response and is the largest immunoglobilin having a pentamer of IgG molecules.

If a woman has been vaccinated and not contracted the disease in its mild form post vaccination then she will only have IgM circulating. IgM cannot cross the barrier so no protection is conveyed until breast feeding starts.

Breastfeeding itself transmits IgA molecules that convey mucosal protection. Again though they are primary immune response antibodies so only offer temporary protection until the childs own IgG is produced to the vaccine.

If a child is still being breastfed when they are vaccinated they will produce IgG to the vaccine because the body already has antibodies in the blood stream. Thus the child will have full immunity. If the child has no IgM in the circulation because it is not being breastfed the primary immune respose will kick in to produce IgM on vaccination. At this point the child's body recognises the vaccine but will only induce a secondary immune response if infected.

This is why you can be infected even if you are vaccinated.

If the mother has been vaccinated, contracts the disease in a mild form and thus has a secondary response to the disease, she will have IgG circulating and thus will give passive immunity (temporarily) to the baby inutero.




Secondly, your description of antibodies and how they work is only half of the story. You are describing the Th2 element of the immune response and completely overlooking the Th1 element. Ie. the detect and attack function of the adenoids, tonsils, etc.

See my description above for how the immunse system works. The tonsils, adenoils etc only hold the lymphocytes that product the immunoglobilins. You have hundreds of nodes around your body that are internal (one that stands out particularly well in the pair in the groin). The only reason tonsils and adenoids cause a problem is because they are 'external' and cause irritation and discomfort. Removing them doesn't have much of an issue as there are hundreds of other lymph nodes in the body. You have at least 20 around each breast and going up to the armpit hence why when you get an infection you can get achy boobs :(

None of this is quoted from the net or books, it is my own interpretation of the complex system, reworded to make it easier for the layman to understand. It is 4 units worth of immunology lectures at university condensed into as few parargraphs. I have made omission - please feel free to research further yourself if it is not clear.

[fred]

I'll try and put it as simply as possible too. You have no fundamental knowledge as to how vaccines actually work. Just because someone has a mild form of the disease it is not a vaccine failure. It is a success because they didn't have the full blown form of the disease. Have a read up on immunity on a 'proper' site. Or even grab a science book from the library. Educate yourself...


I can't pretend to understand all the biology but I've taken a look at what I do understand, the statistics.

There has been a huge improvement in child mortality rates in Britain over the last 60 years, this can't all be attributed to vaccines, there are a lot of other factors to be taken into consideration but I would say there is no doubt vaccines played a part.

There has been an even greater improvement in child mortality rates in third world countries where mass vaccination programs have taken place in the last 10 years. However in these countries where children are not as well nourished as here or have the same medical care an illness such as measles would be far more likely to prove fatal. I hope the West will aid these countries to feed their increased populations not just immunise then leave, I'd hate to think the drug companies were only interested in mass trials and are not going to leave those children to grow up even hungrier.

I have seen enough to convince me vaccination does work however I don't think we can be complacent about it, there are risks in everything we do and when you are injecting something into every child in Britain even a small risk is not acceptable because the consequences of some time in the future discovering a previously unknown adverse effect would be disastrous.

We have seen it time and time again, for years farmers sprayed their crops with DDT not knowing that once it entered the food chain it never got out, it just built up till levels were dangerous. For years they insulated buildings with white asbestos not knowing it would cause respiratory problems for those with prolonged exposure to it. For years farmers fed bone and meat meal to their cattle not knowing it would pass disease from one species to another.

Science does not know everything otherwise it would just stop, this doesn't mean we can fill in the blanks with our imaginations but it does mean we must be constantly vigilant. How many injections is a child expected to have before they leave school? A dozen, two dozen? Each one tested on it's own but how do they interact? How many variables are there? How many unknowns?

I think it's time we realised just how much we don't know and started treading a bit more carefully. We have good reasons not to trust the giant pharmaceutical companies, a long list of very damning reasons, we have good reasons not to trust our governments who claimed rent for houses they owned while soldiers in Iraq went without body armour. Time we started trusting our instincts.

[Leanne]

I can't pretend to understand all the biology but I've taken a look at what I do understand, the statistics.

I think it's time we realised just how much we don't know and started treading a bit more carefully. We have good reasons not to trust the giant pharmaceutical companies, a long list of very damning reasons, we have good reasons not to trust our governments who claimed rent for houses they owned while soldiers in Iraq went without body armour. Time we started trusting our instincts.

Very eloquent Fred. I do love some of your posts. You are the voice of balanced reason. You don't shout 'you're wrong' at a poster. You give your own opinion and allow someone to make up their own mind from your information. You have taken the good and bad from both sides and made it one :) It's a brilliant argumentative tool as as soon as you shout 'you're wrong' people switch off, dig their heels in and sometimes bite back. I know I do :o

Thanks for your post - I really enjoyed reading it.

[roadbowler]

dearie me leanne. You enjoy patronising us "layman" with your infinite medical wisdom. Like most in your field, you think parents are stupid and cannot make informed choices without bowing down to the medical expert gods. Give me a break. The interesting thing is, is that I've spent at least 5 years looking at the ins and outs of vaccines and I'm also lucky enough to have had a doctor to bounce every idea along the way that i've had and help to come up with more. As it was my father who was a practising physician for 40 odd years in a discipline that happens to be of the same view i am of vaccines and misuse of of management pharmaceuticals, i've been lucky to know i've been getting an honest and educated view on the subject. For the hundredth time! ANTIBODIES DOES NOT MEAN IMMUNITY. All it means is you've been exposed. That is it! In your case, you say you were immunised. You were not. You were vaccinated and caught the disease no matter how 'mild' it may have been. I'm not interested in proving you wrong on your foolish assertion so, i will let you look up "vaccine failure" in any medical dictionary, study, source etc. of your choice and you will see that is what is called a VACCINE FAILURE. Back to your shock photo of a polio victim and your uneducated view that removing tonsils is just fine. Are you aware it is only the tonsils that can synthesise antibodies to polio?? Obviously not. There are studies that say a person who has a tonsilectomys' chances of contracting and suffering paralytic polio is 600% greater than those who still have their tonsils? In fact the high rate of tonsilectomies are directly related to the high amount of cases of bulbar poliomyelitis in the 50's and 60's.

[Leanne]

Please don't shout. Runs in corner and cries... Can we not give our own opinion (which is all it is) without resorting to name calling?

[Moby]

Time we started trusting our instincts.

This has to be the best advice I have read on this thread. Thank you Fred.

I made the decision not to give my child the MMR vaccine. This was an agonising decision. There was so much contradictory advice and information out there I thought my head would burst.

There is so much pressure from the NHS - letters from your surgery, red reminders from Inverness .......... but these do stop eventually.

My decision was made at age 2 - I decided to delay vaccination until age 4 when I would reconsider all information. When age 4 came, and after a great deal of deliberation, I still did not have the full confidence in the vaccine to allow it to be given to my child.

My child is now 7 and I still feel that I have made the right decision but I know that I will question this in another couple of years.

My advice would be take it one step at a time, don't be rushed by the "18 month deadline" and go with your gut instinct at that time.

[telfordstar]

This has to be the best advice I have read on this thread. Thank you Fred.

I made the decision not to give my child the MMR vaccine. This was an agonising decision. There was so much contradictory advice and information out there I thought my head would burst.

There is so much pressure from the NHS - letters from your surgery, red reminders from Inverness .......... but these do stop eventually.

My decision was made at age 2 - I decided to delay vaccination until age 4 when I would reconsider all information. When age 4 came, and after a great deal of deliberation, I still did not have the full confidence in the vaccine to allow it to be given to my child.

My child is now 7 and I still feel that I have made the right decision but I know that I will question this in another couple of years.

My advice would be take it one step at a time, don't be rushed by the "18 month deadline" and go with your gut instinct at that time.


I know what you mean Moby, Ive had loads of letters and a fair amount of calls from both health visitor and receptionists at doctors just reminding me, which is fair dues but as if id been forgetting. My Oldest son and daughter had mmr and with my oldest son now with adhd and possibly my daughter i am not not giving my youngest the mmr as in my eyes that was when the changes happened mor so my son but only recently my daughter. It may be a coincidence but im not prepared to take any more risks. So for now its a no. I totally get the "statistics" everyone keeps spouting at me but i still disagree.

[cuddlepop]

I know what you mean Moby, Ive had loads of letters and a fair amount of calls from both health visitor and receptionists at doctors just reminding me, which is fair dues but as if id been forgetting. My Oldest son and daughter had mmr and with my oldest son now with adhd and possibly my daughter i am not not giving my youngest the mmr as in my eyes that was when the changes happened mor so my son but only recently my daughter. It may be a coincidence but im not prepared to take any more risks. So for now its a no. I totally get the "statistics" everyone keeps spouting at me but i still disagree.

No one should be pressurised into giving this MMR vaccine.
Tell them to back off,ever so politely.

Glad you've come to this decision.:D

[telfordstar]

No one should be pressurised into giving this MMR vaccine.
Tell them to back off,ever so politely.

Glad you've come to this decision.:D


Thanks Cuddlepop :D

I did have a chat with doctor the other day and he said it would go on my sons notes so hopefully that will be it now, well for a while anyways.

[roadbowler]

leanne, there has been at least four times on this thread that you have tried to tell people that your vaccination against measles was successful because you contracted a mild form of measles after vaccination. I posted a light comment about it to get you to think about what you are saying without actually pointing out that this is well known and well-defined as a 'vaccine failure'. In fact, more precisely, in your case, is known as secondary vaccine failure.You reeled in another few posts telling me i do not even understand the basics of immunology and vaccination. How could i as a layperson right? You then post shock photos of polio victims then post your view that tonsils are indeed just a worthless organ to be removed from the body. Now, given the research easily obtainable from the internet on tonsilectomies and bulbar polio we can see that in fact there is a direct connection. My point is people like yourself that actually work in the medical professions are reckless and patronising to insinuate that their formal education makes their opinion superior to us parents who may have informally educated themselves on a subject in their field. Then pressurise parents and even taunt them in somes cases as we've seen here already whilst swinging their credentials in their face. Perhaps, not everything in you were taught in your 4 units of immunology does not stand up to the reality of published research and studies. I am quite sure there are plenty areas of the subject you are quite rightly versed in which would be helpful to people researching vaccines and etc. But, in future, no matter what you've been taught in structured environment of formal education, please check out what you are saying before you say it. Do not assume that self-educated people, parents who may get a lot of information off the internet and wikipedia for that matter are any less educated than yourself on topics. How do you know who and what they may consult on topics? Studies from medical journals are all available to everyone nowadays. In my opinion, doctors, gps etc everywhere would be doing well to take on board what parents relay back to them on vaccine reactions as the parents know the child and their observations in these situations could well be one of the best ways they could learn more about this minefield of a subject. Good doctors learn from and listen to their patients. We could do with more of that.

[Oddquine]

I read all this thread...and I really wonder just how the hell I have lived to the age of 62 without the overweening benefits of inoculations against anything that the pharmaceutical companies have invented to make themselves profits......and I am gobsmacked that my own offspring have now managed to attain their forties.

Not convinced that inoculations for anything causes problems for children, having had close relations who have ended up damaged because of febrile convulsions in the days long before universal inoculation for anything....and in some cases very badly damaged at that. No reason at all....completely unexpected.....but if they had had an inoculation for anything at all prior to it... and you wanted to look for a reason......then the inoculation would certainly do as a reason........ wouldn't make it correct, though.

However, in a world in which there is a vaccine for just about anything now, and every single vaccine puts big bucks into the pockets of pharmaceutical companies.....not overly inclined to think that they are taking as much notice of the common good as they are of company profits.

In the days before vaccines, I can distinctly remember my parents.....as soon as one of the three of us came down with something contagious....confining us to interaction with each other until we all caught whatever it was....which we duly did....I remember measles and mumps specifically.......and vaccinations were not necessary at all. Did exactly the same with my own offspring....and they are still alive, kicking and to date very healthy.

So are those who nowadays vaccinate their offspring against diseases which are usually relatively non-fatal or incapacitating doing it more because the Government says they should........or because they can't be bothered taking time off work to look after their offspring?

Never have thought the MMR vaccine was a problem, which has been proven by the fact that the bloke who first posited the theory has been discredited........just that it was completely unnecessary...as are most of Government dictats re vaccines or anything else.

[_Ju_]

Oddquine, you struck on an important issue with regard to MMR. Symptoms of autism become more notable at around 1 year of age which is when the MMR vaccination is also administered.
Like you, my mother made sure that my sister and I went to pox and measles parties. Unlike you, I never got anything! Infact, when my little boy got chicken pox, I caught it off him. I cannot imagine that my sister and I are unique in that without vaccinations we did not catch any childhood diseases. The problem is that because you did not catch them as a child does not mean you won't as an adult. And several innocuous childhood disease have serious consequences if suffered as adults.
I was also thinking about what you said about taking time off from work to tend your ill children. I cannot think that there are parents who would not do that whole heartedly. Speaking for myself, whenever my son needs me I am there. But at a cost: I also have a strong work ethic, I don't earn if I don't work, I am the sole support of my family. These would all create an internal conflict at taking a couple of weeks off work. Not that I would not do it, but it would cause a very big upheaval. So do I think parents couldn't be bothered not to take the time off? No, I think they do take the time off, and take good care of the children that they love. Just like they work everyday to provide for those children.

[roadbowler]

hi oddquine, yea, diseases of all sorts, ones they vaccinate for and equally do not vaccinate for cause complications of varying degrees. However, it could just be a coincidence but, there are facts that stimulate some lookimg into like in Japan, from 1970-74 they recorded 37 deaths linked directly to the DPT vaccine. Japanese doctors started to boycott the vaccine and in response the government stopped the program. They restarted it two months later but, decided that only children older than 2 years of age would then be vaccinated with the dpt vaccine instead of at two months old. They did this for 13 years. Japan went from 17th highest infant mortality in the world to the lowest in the world. Roundabouts 1989, they start vaccinating at 2 months of age again with an apparently improved vaccine and their phenomenal infant mortality rate plummeted again. Like i say, it could be a coincidence but, the same thing happened in england too when there was a big scare of brain damage from hep b vaccine in 1975. Parents worried about this proven link and stopped vaccinating for 2 years where uptake was as low as 10% and infant mortality rates became better, then worse again when uptake went back up. This also happened in sweden with the whooping cough vaccine after everyone who was vaccinated for it came down with the disease. They stopped the vaccine and they went to the second lowest infant mortality rate in the world ad back again when they restart the vaccination program. This directly correlates with the research done on Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. People keep saying there is no link between autism and mmr. However, cuddlepop has already pointed there are other links confirmed. A court in the hannah poling case, has ruled that mmr did cause her autism as there is sufficient medical evidence that has established a link between children with mitochondrial dysfunction, mmr vaccination and autism. There are thousands of parents out there like chaz here that have watched their children suffer adverse reactions to the mmr. Are the same people shouting no link between mmr and autism because of the wakefield fiasco trying to tell parents they do not know what they are talking about when they've watched their children developing, speaking, socialising before mmr and after the mmr this reverses? I personally can not see how anyone come to this conclusion to say no link when autism now effects 1 in 155 children. It is all very fine and well to say that my children are fine, my grandchildren are fine. But, in the case of the polio vaccine being contaminated with the sv-40 virus which millions were infected with, it isn't until the people are in their 40's and 50's that they are developing the cancers caused by the virus in most cases. Same for multiple sclerosis. Toodiemac has posted the ingredients to these vaccines but, they also list side effects, encephalitis, bell's palsy, guillaine barre, multiple sclerosis, death etc, etc. A french court has ruled the hep b vaccine has caused multiple sclerosis. This is a well known link. But, the people looking for a link of mmr to autism should be first looking for any proof vaccines work at all. They would be looking for a long time because there isn't any. There are studies that show yes, the vaccines can induce the body to make antibodies but, that is it. And i can point to hundreds of studies showing vaccine failure and outbreaks even in populations testing for high levels of antibodies. But, not one study proving vaccine efficacy. Never in 200 years of vaccination have they done one study of the efficacy of vaccines looking at the difference between unvaccinated and vaccinated.

[roadbowler]

quine, forgot to say, aye, i totally agree with your thoughts on vaccination for measles, mumps and rubella are totally unnescessary to begin with!!;)

[Leanne]

One page of googling found two

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2331640

http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:GbpU_AfiQLIJ:horizon.documentation. ird.fr/exl-doc/pleins_textes/pleins_textes_7/b_fdi_53-54/010016512.pdf+correlation+between+mortality+rates+ in+vaccinated+and+unvaccinated&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

[roadbowler]

One page of googling found two

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2331640

http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:GbpU_AfiQLIJ:horizon.documentation. ird.fr/exl-doc/pleins_textes/pleins_textes_7/b_fdi_53-54/010016512.pdf+correlation+between+mortality+rates+ in+vaccinated+and+unvaccinated&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a
leanne, please read the study first and you will see on the second one you posted they say, "Children who had measles within 2 weeks of vaccination were classified as unvaccinated." Now, you must be careful with these. You need to read them. They like to throw in doozies like the one above and things like false-positives. Red flag goes up because it is well known you can also catch measles from the vaccine! fred, also mentioned earlier about statistics. You need to look at them properly not just the summary. Example, the nhs will tell you again and again in their literature that they have stopped measles deaths in its tracks due to successful vaccination programs however, if you look at the statistics for measles deaths you will find that the rate of measles deaths dropped 99.4% by the time the vaccine was introduced in 1968. The first one does not open on my mobile phone. Allow me to rephrase, there is not one proper study of vaccine efficacy comparing vaccinated ad unvaccinated that does not contain doozies like the above or is not sponsered by the pharmaceutical companies themselves.

[fred]

leanne, please read the study first and you will see on the second one you posted they say, "Children who had measles within 2 weeks of vaccination were classified as unvaccinated." Now, you must be careful with these. You need to read them. They like to throw in doozies like the one above and things like false-positives. Red flag goes up because it is well known you can also catch measles from the vaccine! fred, also mentioned earlier about statistics. You need to look at them properly not just the summary. Example, the nhs will tell you again and again in their literature that they have stopped measles deaths in its tracks due to successful vaccination programs however, if you look at the statistics for measles deaths you will find that the rate of measles deaths dropped 99.4% by the time the vaccine was introduced in 1968. The first one does not open on my mobile phone. Allow me to rephrase, there is not one proper study of vaccine efficacy comparing vaccinated ad unvaccinated that does not contain doozies like the above or is not sponsered by the pharmaceutical companies themselves.

Yes you have to read the statistics right, measles deaths may have dropped 99.4% by 1969 but that extra 0.6% resulted in 51 children dying in 1968, 99 in 1967, 80 in 1966, that's 230 souls already.

Since 1990 there have not been more than 4 deaths in any one year.

[cuddlepop]

I'll ask a stupid question so bear with me.

Why did they introduce the MMR vaccine,were the kids not already being vaccinated for these diseases individually.

Was it all just to save money?:(

[roadbowler]

hi fred, do you know how many die and suffer severe complications from mmr vaccine every year?

Hi cuddlepop, sounds a perfectly valid question to me, i suspect that patents run out so they create another version, but, yea why triple antigen? Quite an assault on the immune system.

[_Ju_]

hi fred, do you know how many die and suffer severe complications from mmr vaccine every year?

.

No. Pray do tell.

[toodiemac]

I'll ask a stupid question so bear with me.

Why did they introduce the MMR vaccine,were the kids not already being vaccinated for these diseases individually.

Was it all just to save money?:(

You are right cuddlepop, children were being vaccinated prior to the MMR. They got the single measles vaccines as babies (it was introduced in the late 60's).

Teenage girls were given rubella so that they would have immunity when they were of childbearing age - that's when rubella is dangerous, to the unborn fetus. If young children catch rubella it is usually a very mild disease, indeed often they have no symptoms at all, and they would then go on to have lofe-long immunity. Bear in mind that immunity from the vaccine can wane over time.

And as for mumps, well it wasn't vaccinated against prior to the MMR because it is usually such a mild disease in children, and again they have lifelong immunity after having the illness. Many experts wonder why did they even add mumps to the vaccinations schedule. Interestingly there was actually a mumps vaccine available long before the MMR but it was not used because it's a mild illness.

[cuddlepop]

106.

In contrast, a role for viral infection in triggering ASDs has been proposed in a number of

studies.ASDs has occasionally been associated with cases of perinatal cytomegalovirus infection


127,128

in children as well as with cases of congenital rubella infection


129,130.A small number of cases have

been described associated with herpes simplex virus encephalitis


131,132. All these viral infections have

many other detrimental effects on the brain of infected patients and hence it is probably not
surprising that some of the affected children displayed symptoms associated with autism spectrum
disorders.With the disappearance of congenital rubella the number of reports of associated ASD
has decreased substantially.The cases were sporadic and rare and hence it is unlikely that these
viruses act as triggers for the majority of individuals with ASDs.

I'm no doctor so maybe someone with more knowledge than me can interpret .:confused

This is from the NHS immunisation Information website on autism research.
Its 94 pages long but so far I've found this.

[cuddlepop]

I think they've decided for present the jurys out abit like the not proven verdict.


112. The aforementioned reviews were unanimous in their conclusions that a causal link between
the MMR vaccine and “autistic colitis” and ASDs was not proven and that current epidemiological
evidence did not support this proposed link. The Institute of Medicine report noted that “this
conclusion does not exclude the possibility that MMR vaccine could contribute to ASD in a small
number of children, because the epidemiological evidence lacks the precision to assess rare
occurrences of a response to MMR vaccine leading to ASD”4. We recognise that, as with most
epidemiological studies of causation, this remains a theoretical possibility. More extensive research
would be necessary to provide evidence for the biological plausibility of a suggested causal link
between viral infections and ASDs (as this is currently not robust), as it would be for other
proposed causal factors.

[roadbowler]

hi cuddlepop. Thanks for posting the above. Yea, 93 page mitigation document. They seem to like to give us ample evidence as to how autistic spectrum disorders are not related to vaccines but, where are the 93 page documents they could put out explaining the 100% proven maladies, maimings and deaths linked to even just mmr vaccines alone. If they gave parents that info, the truth, they would have a failed mmr program. Period. Japan does not use the mmr. They stopped the program in 1993 because they were appalled by the amount of adverse reactions from it. It was their number one culprit in the majority of vaccine compensation claims paid out in japan. They now use single injections. Our government will not admit that the mmr can cause death and serious illness eventhough the us government and many others admit yes, indeed it can. The government has already paid out on the compensation scheme for death caused by mmr and still will not admit to it. They've spent £3.5 million in the past 30 years compensating vaccine victims families and REFUSE to make public the details of these claims. They will not even say which vaccines were involved in these cases. Absolutely outrageous! On the scheme in uk, if you can prove your child died from a vaccine they will pay out £7,500. That is what they think the damage is worth. I am completely wrong on my statistics on autism rates i mentioned earlier. It is now 1 in 60 children in the uk are estimated to have autistic spectrum disorders. The thing we need to really rationalise is this. The government makes claim after claim that autism is not caused by vaccines, well, what is causing it? They do not know what causes it. Yes, quick to claim it is not vaccines but, no alternative, coherent answers as to what exactly is causing it. When you consider that there could be unlimited amounts of unknown viruses that could be piggybacking in the foreign animal tissue these vaccines are made from that are being injected into babies just as what happened with polio and sv-40, you really have to question the wisdom of mass vaccination of millions of children for diseases that are not really lethal at all to children.

[cuddlepop]

What I find interesting Roadblower is that the research hasnt been entirely able to rule out a link between autism and viral infection,of which a life vaccine is in all the cases.:(

Present methods of investigating arent rebust eneogh and this research is almost 10 years old now so with an upsurge in autism why dont they find a definative answere.:confused

[fred]

hi cuddlepop. Thanks for posting the above. Yea, 93 page mitigation document. They seem to like to give us ample evidence as to how autistic spectrum disorders are not related to vaccines but, where are the 93 page documents they could put out explaining the 100% proven maladies, maimings and deaths linked to even just mmr vaccines alone. If they gave parents that info, the truth, they would have a failed mmr program. Period. Japan does not use the mmr. They stopped the program in 1993 because they were appalled by the amount of adverse reactions from it. It was their number one culprit in the majority of vaccine compensation claims paid out in japan. They now use single injections. Our government will not admit that the mmr can cause death and serious illness eventhough the us government and many others admit yes, indeed it can. The government has already paid out on the compensation scheme for death caused by mmr and still will not admit to it. They've spent £3.5 million in the past 30 years compensating vaccine victims families and REFUSE to make public the details of these claims. They will not even say which vaccines were involved in these cases. Absolutely outrageous! On the scheme in uk, if you can prove your child died from a vaccine they will pay out £7,500. That is what they think the damage is worth. I am completely wrong on my statistics on autism rates i mentioned earlier. It is now 1 in 60 children in the uk are estimated to have autistic spectrum disorders. The thing we need to really rationalise is this. The government makes claim after claim that autism is not caused by vaccines, well, what is causing it? They do not know what causes it. Yes, quick to claim it is not vaccines but, no alternative, coherent answers as to what exactly is causing it. When you consider that there could be unlimited amounts of unknown viruses that could be piggybacking in the foreign animal tissue these vaccines are made from that are being injected into babies just as what happened with polio and sv-40, you really have to question the wisdom of mass vaccination of millions of children for diseases that are not really lethal at all to children.

Yes Japan did stop using the triple vaccine in 1993 when the mumps component, a different strain to that used in Britain, was linked to meningitis. Cases of autism in the country continued to rise. They also stopped vaccination being mandatory in 1994, since then the number of people receiving the second booster shot has been poor.

Japan is the only developed country still to have frequent measles epidemics.

[Vistravi]

I think another question to be asked is how much cotton wool are we going to wrap our kids up with?

Personally i'm not going to give our child the MMR but give him/her the measels(sp) one as a infant and rubella to a lassie and mumps to a boy.

As parents we want to protect our children's health but at what point is is excessive and unnesscary?

[roadbowler]

fred, your above is media propaganda. If you look at the raw data you will find a few interesting things. I mention Japan a lot because some very damning evidence is provided by the Japanese. First of all, after the uk governments and nhs' mitigation propaganda about measles outbreaks, Dr. Hiroki Nakatani, the director of Infectious Disease Division at Japans Ministry of Health and Welfare came out and explained that the figure claimed in the media was from a 5 year period and on average their was LESS deaths on average from measles after the mmr was withdrawn than during the period of when they were using mmr! What the media also conveniently fails to mention is that 30 - 60% of the people developing measles in these outbreaks is vaccinated against measles. Perhaps we are now seeing that vaccine failure reports in outbreaks are the rule, not the exception.

[roadbowler]

fred, the research you point at for no causal link between autism and mmr in japan is a wee bit more complex than that. That is the honda/rutter paper. Btw. Rutter is on the payroll of glaxo/wellcome! Red flag! When you look at the study and compare with data from the Terada and the Nakatani papers you actually find honda skips out some important data. When including the missing data you see one of the most unusual and conclusive links between autism and vaccines! The data combined, shows a dose-response relationship. Ie. The data when combined shows the extent of the drug effect is related to the amount of drug administered. Implicating in this instance, MMR, single measles vaccine, and japanese encephalitis. I believe ive read this evidence is used in autism vaccine court cases even.

[fred]

I think another question to be asked is how much cotton wool are we going to wrap our kids up with?

Personally i'm not going to give our child the MMR but give him/her the measels(sp) one as a infant and rubella to a lassie and mumps to a boy.

As parents we want to protect our children's health but at what point is is excessive and unnesscary?

That sounds like a sensible approach.

No vaccination is without risk and it looks like you've done your research and found where the risk is worth taking.

[fred]

roadbowler, I know you have difficulty with pdfs so I have extracted this graph for you.

http://www.graven-images.org.uk/temp/image1.jpg

[roadbowler]

cheers fred, could you let me know what the name and author of document is and to which country or region does it relate? Ta!:D

[fred]

cheers fred, could you let me know what the name and author of document is and to which country or region does it relate? Ta!:D

The data is from the Health Protection Agency, the document is in the House of Commons Library, author Gavin Thompson and it relates to Britain.

[roadbowler]

hi fred,

http://1.2.3.12/bmi/www.whale.to/vaccines/dec1.gif

http://1.2.3.9/bmi/www.whale.to/vaccines/table10.gif

We never, ever have vaccinated against Scarlet Fever. However, we see the rate of deaths from it dropped off the same as many others like diptheria, whooping cough, tetanus and measles. Note in the top graph where the vaccinations came into play in these diseases. chart sources are Dr. Raymond Obosawin

Indeed, the rate of "confirmed cases" of Scarlet Fever have dropped off almost in its entirety matching these other illnesses. Today, there is roughly somewhere between 100-200 scarlet fever cases per year in the uk. Sound similiar to any other of these diseases? There is a good reason for all of this.

[fred]

hi fred,

http://1.2.3.12/bmi/www.whale.to/vaccines/dec1.gif

http://1.2.3.9/bmi/www.whale.to/vaccines/table10.gif

We never, ever have vaccinated against Scarlet Fever. However, we see the rate of deaths from it dropped off the same as many others like diptheria, whooping cough, tetanus and measles. Note in the top graph where the vaccinations came into play in these diseases. chart sources are Dr. Raymond Obosawin

Indeed, the rate of "confirmed cases" of Scarlet Fever have dropped off almost in its entirety matching these other illnesses. Today, there is roughly somewhere between 100-200 scarlet fever cases per year in the uk. Sound similiar to any other of these diseases? There is a good reason for all of this.

Well no, scarlet fever is a bacterial infection which responds well to antibiotics while measles is a viral infection.

[Leanne]

Well no, scarlet fever is a bacterial infection which responds well to antibiotics while measles is a viral infection.

It's also a horrible disease to have :( I had it during my A-level finals and was bed ridden for 2 weeks during the exams. Non-lethal usually but a very unpleasant disease to have :(

[roadbowler]

fred, aye, as is whooping cough and diptheria and others that they vaccinate for. Measles is perfectly treatable with vitamin A. It has been known since the 1930's that vitamin A administered in the right dose will reduce complications to next to nil. Provided they have not been dosed with anything to suppress fever (especially paracetamol!) and are not either chemically or naturally immunosuppressed. Britains last measles death was both. In fact, those who have suffered eye lesions from measles complications can be reversed with vitamin A.

[squidge]

I have had four out of my five children vaccinated with MMR with no side effects at all. None of my children ( eldest 21 - gawd when did that happen????) have had measles mumps or rubella. With ANY medical procedure then you have to decide as the parent whether to go ahead. You can tie yourself in knots but the bottom line has to be what can you live with. If you dont have the vaccinations then your child gets measles and is seriously ill or even dies as a result of that could you live with knowing that you might have prevented it. If you have the vaccinations and your child develops ADHD or Autism which You believe was caused by the vaccine - can you live with it? Given there is no history of autism or adhd in our family i took the chance. One of my boys was allergic to eggs and had an asthma type problem as a baby - both contra indications - and I decided against the vaccine for him. These were the decisions i made feeling like i could live with the consequences if something went wrong.


All this soap boxing and flag waving and allegations about the pockets of pharmaceuticals is not a helpful way to enable people to make the decisions they need to make about any vaccination. Beware the big bad giant that is Glaxo is advice of absolutely no use to the mother sitting there nursing her 6month old beloved daughter, marvelling at her absolute beauty and wondering how on earth she keeps her safe. To suggest that parents who opt for vaccinations are simple sheep following each other into vaccination hell is not fair and slightly insulting. The vast majority of parents REALLYthink about anything their children have to go through - especially the MMR vaccination as it has been in the news so much over the last twenty years.

It is worth remembering that if a child gets rubella then they can pass it on to a woman who is not immunised. Girls of the last 20 years whose parents did not take up the MMR vaccination can catch it whilst pregnant and their unborn child can be damaged by it. Immunisation is not solely about protecting our own children but its also about protecting others.

A final point on the increase in Autistic spectrum disorders. To have seen a massive increase in the diagnosis of Autism is not surprising, Much has been learned about this disorder and the range of problems that it causes The autistic spectrum covers many children who years ago would have been labelled as "odd" or "difficult". As we understand autism and its related disorders we become better at spotting it and diagnosing it - therefore the numbers rise.

[toodiemac]

Perhaps rather than looking at notifications of measles it would be more relevant to look at death rates? There are some interesting graphs here which show that vaccination didn't really have any effect on the measles death rate - it dropped before vaccination, as did the death rate of many other diseases.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clifford.g.miller/vaxstats.html

[fred]

Perhaps rather than looking at notifications of measles it would be more relevant to look at death rates? There are some interesting graphs here which show that vaccination didn't really have any effect on the measles death rate - it dropped before vaccination, as did the death rate of many other diseases.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clifford.g.miller/vaxstats.html

Well yes, the death rate for everything has dropped since the turn of the 20th century when a man's life expectancy was less than 50 years.

That doesn't alter the number of people alive today who would have been dead if not for the measles vaccine.

Who do we have to thank for that vast decline in mortality rates? Medical science must have got something right mustn't they?

[_Ju_]

Vaccination is effective in animals. Why would human vaccination be uneffective?

[Stavro]

Who do we have to thank for that vast decline in mortality rates?

Better hygiene, better nutrition, higher standard of living and genuine medical advances.

[roadbowler]

well, stavro could not be more correct. This is my point with the scarlet fever graphs. Squidge, nobody is calling anyone sheep. If you think that then you have not read the thread. We are discussing and debating the benefits, risks, history, statistics, misinformation and reality of vaccinations, namely MMR. Perhaps, it may be prudent to stop and think about the fact that there are parents who have posted here who both suspect or know for a fact that their children have been harmed by vaccines, namely the MMR, that might find your remarks on autism insulting?

[_Ju_]

Vaccination is effective in animals. Why would human vaccination be uneffective?

[roadbowler]

Vaccination is effective in animals. Why would human vaccination be uneffective?

Ju, if u have not noticed, i am ignoring you. You seem to be developing a bad habit of following me around this forum with only an argument for the sake of argument. It's rather childish and completely unhelpful to anyone. So, no thanks.

[_Ju_]

How absoloutely childish, Roadbowler. I only post on threads that I find interesting. I am not following you around on the board. I am sorry that you have that impression, Roadbowler. If you go into your user CP you have the option to put my name on your ignore list and perhaps that would dispel your ludicrous notion. The added value is that there is one less disagreeing with you on here.

Now back to the subject at hand:

If vaccinations are so inefficient and innept, why do they work on animals?

PS: Just checked. I have posted on exactly 2 threads in comon with you, roadbowler, as far as I can see. I thought I would just check. 2 threads. Talk about oversensitive and hyper-reactive.

[roadbowler]

no thanks.

[squidge]

well, stavro could not be more correct. This is my point with the scarlet fever graphs. Squidge, nobody is calling anyone sheep. If you think that then you have not read the thread. We are discussing and debating the benefits, risks, history, statistics, misinformation and reality of vaccinations, namely MMR. Perhaps, it may be prudent to stop and think about the fact that there are parents who have posted here who both suspect or know for a fact that their children have been harmed by vaccines, namely the MMR, that might find your remarks on autism insulting?

My point is that all this political posturing about the ins and outs of the governments immunisation programme and its effectiveness means very little when you are faced with having your own child vaccinated. What matters is what PARENTS say about their own experiences with their children and what you can live with. Therefore all your theories of the big bad vaccine monster pale into insignificance by the side of the feelings of many of the posters here. These big theories about conspiracies to surpress evidence and pay off people just dont hit the spot as far as I can see. They dont help make up a worried parents mind about whether to vaccinate their child - thats because for all the evidence that says "yes there are problems" there is as much evidence that says "no there isnt" Talk to your GP, talk to your friends, talk to your family about the real issues affecting thjeir childrenand then make your decision based on that. Not on whether some report or other tells us stuff about vaccinations in japan!!!

I would also hope no one finds my comments about autism insulting. If a parent believes their child has been damaged by the MMR vaccine then i am not going to say they are wrong, however it IS a fact that we HAVE become more adept at diagnosing autism and its related disorders and so we MUST expect that this accounts for some of the increase. If we ignore that point because we are scared that we will upset someone then we are as guilty of playing with evidence as you and opthers say the government and the pharmaceutical companies are.

[telfordstar]

I have had four out of my five children vaccinated with MMR with no side effects at all. None of my children ( eldest 21 - gawd when did that happen????) have had measles mumps or rubella. With ANY medical procedure then you have to decide as the parent whether to go ahead. You can tie yourself in knots but the bottom line has to be what can you live with. If you dont have the vaccinations then your child gets measles and is seriously ill or even dies as a result of that could you live with knowing that you might have prevented it. If you have the vaccinations and your child develops ADHD or Autism which You believe was caused by the vaccine - can you live with it? Given there is no history of autism or adhd in our family i took the chance. One of my boys was allergic to eggs and had an asthma type problem as a baby - both contra indications - and I decided against the vaccine for him. These were the decisions i made feeling like i could live with the consequences if something went wrong.


All this soap boxing and flag waving and allegations about the pockets of pharmaceuticals is not a helpful way to enable people to make the decisions they need to make about any vaccination. Beware the big bad giant that is Glaxo is advice of absolutely no use to the mother sitting there nursing her 6month old beloved daughter, marvelling at her absolute beauty and wondering how on earth she keeps her safe. To suggest that parents who opt for vaccinations are simple sheep following each other into vaccination hell is not fair and slightly insulting. The vast majority of parents REALLYthink about anything their children have to go through - especially the MMR vaccination as it has been in the news so much over the last twenty years.

It is worth remembering that if a child gets rubella then they can pass it on to a woman who is not immunised. Girls of the last 20 years whose parents did not take up the MMR vaccination can catch it whilst pregnant and their unborn child can be damaged by it. Immunisation is not solely about protecting our own children but its also about protecting others.

A final point on the increase in Autistic spectrum disorders. To have seen a massive increase in the diagnosis of Autism is not surprising, Much has been learned about this disorder and the range of problems that it causes The autistic spectrum covers many children who years ago would have been labelled as "odd" or "difficult". As we understand autism and its related disorders we become better at spotting it and diagnosing it - therefore the numbers rise.

Guess you were lucky with your kids with their mmr. I know for a fact after that mmr my son changed I will admit that maybe the media frenzy didnt help but as a mother i had already made the link. I guess really its a catch 22 situation really give it or dont give it! I for one believe that there is no smoke without fire regarding the mmr and autism regardless of how big a lier doc wakefield is being called. This is just my opinion maybe dosnt matter to alot to alot of folk with their facts and figure but it matters alot to me.

[telfordstar]

Vaccination is effective in animals. Why would human vaccination be uneffective?


I just find that funny and cant comment due to the fact i would get barred!!

[roadbowler]

hi squidge. I don't think that there would be too many people here that question the benefits of these vaccines that would not admit there is a large fear factor involved in this issue. We are speaking about a trillion dollar industry here. A trillion dollar industry that is one of the pillars of conventional medicine/allopathy. To properly understand the realities of the risks and benefits of vaccination you must contemplate just how big and bad the pharmaceutical industry is and what influence they have. Their business is sickness not wellness. Consider the fact that there is a vaccine that is regularly given to cats, every year in boosters in some countries. It was found that 160,000 cats a year were developing cancers at the injection site. (Veterinarian products committee working group on feline and canine vaccination, DEFRA May 2001) Did they withdraw the vaccine? No, they now inject cats in the tail and lower leg so, they can amputate in cases of the cancer instead. Have a think about that. This is not medicine. This is disgusting. This is what the medical cartel calls humane and ethical. Essentially, we see the same with the side effects in these vaccines we are told to give our children. Consider that eli lilli in the us came out with prozac. Which became their number 1 best selling drug. The most common side effect of prozac on the insert is psychosis. Eli lillis' 2nd best selling drug was an anti- psychosis drug. I think was called zyprexa. The most common side effect of this anti-psychosis drug was diabetes. I will let you guess what their 3rd best selling drug was for. They create their own markets especially in management pharaceuticals for chronic illness. Maybe you do not see the problem with this, but, i do. And it is a big part of the vaccine picture.

[Stavro]

Guess you were lucky with your kids with their mmr. I know for a fact after that mmr my son changed I will admit that maybe the media frenzy didnt help but as a mother i had already made the link. I guess really its a catch 22 situation really give it or dont give it! I for one believe that there is no smoke without fire regarding the mmr and autism regardless of how big a lier doc wakefield is being called. This is just my opinion maybe dosnt matter to alot to alot of folk with their facts and figure but it matters alot to me.

Your opinion does matter for sure, especially as you are speaking from the heart.

Dr. Andrew Wakefield (and his team) did nothing wrong at all. The government went after him with a vengeance and came up with what? That he was funded. Of course he was funded. All research is funded. His results, methods and conclusions were peer-reviewed and published in the foremost medical journal in the world. Great pressure was then placed upon the editor of the Lancet to claim that Dr Wakefield's paper should not have been passed. The rest is history. Dr Wakefield has never retracted and has behaved with dignity throughout his ordeal.

[fred]

Your opinion does matter for sure, especially as you are speaking from the heart.

Dr. Andrew Wakefield (and his team) did nothing wrong at all. The government went after him with a vengeance and came up with what? That he was funded. Of course he was funded.

Just a moment, I've just been reading roadbowler citing the money drug companies make from vaccines as their motive for covering up harmful effects.


In November 2004, Channel 4 broadcast a one-hour investigation by reporter Brian Deer, which alleged that before the Lancet paper was published, Wakefield had filed a patent application for a single measles vaccine, and that his laboratory had failed to find measles virus in the children. In November 2005, the scope of the allegations facing Wakefield, which he denies, were set out in a High Court judgment. In December 2006, the Legal Services Commission revealed that it had paid £435,643 in fees to Wakefield—payments which The Sunday Times reported had begun two years before the Lancet paper.

In January 2007 Wakefield dropped his action against Channel 4 rather than have it come to court, and was required to pay all their legal costs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

[cuddlepop]

In our experience giving the MMR vaccine,especially the second doze was the final ingredient in the recipe for Autism.

I dont believe MMR on its own causes autism its just an ingredient in an unfortunate mix for some children.:~(

[ducati]

I wish you people could control yourselves. None of this is the least bit helpful in answering the original thread.

[squidge]

This is just my opinion maybe dosnt matter to alot to alot of folk with their facts and figure but it matters alot to me.

But thats my point Telfordstar - its YOUR opinion that matters to us other parents - not a load of political mumbo jumbo that ties up a lot of parents in stuff they neither understand nor can face wading through. People like you and I with our experiences of MMR are the ones other parents want to hear from.

I agonised over every MMR decision I made - i have no patience for the "political" arguments because there are as many who say it is safe as say it is not. You and I wiegh up our decisions and make them and if you think thats what caused your childs problems then I am certainly not saying that you are wrong. All my children have had it around the two year old mark except for the eldest who was on the catch up programme so was about five and the middle one who was also five cos he was given it at pre school stage. ( and there lies another story!)

The fact that I believe that there is truth in what you are saying does NOT mean that I doubt the effectiveness of the vaccine or the appropriateness of vaccinations per se. It means that I will make my decision when it comes to having Fianna-Rose vaccinated in full knowledge that there are children out there who it appears likely they have been damaged by this vaccination. Thats exactly the way i made my last four decisions and in fact is how I made my decision to have a baby at 43 and then 45. This despite the fact that the STATISTICS and REPORTS and RESEARCH suggests that I will more than likely have a baby with disabilities, more than likely die in childbirth and more than likely have a still born baby. i talked to other mothers and my doctors and decided from there.


Many parents dont need some indecipherable explanation of the political situation or the financial greed of the pharmaceutical companies to tell them what is right for their family and what was wrong for their family. It makes not one iota of difference to me as a mum making my decisions about vaccinations to read all roadbowlers and others summaries of reports, research or vaccinations in cats. Its stuff to beat us over the head with so we dont know whether we are coming or going. I can accept that this is roadbowlers "soap box" issue - thats not an insult - i have issues i regularly wheel out my soap box on:roll:. But the various reports are not helpful when making decisions like this. None of that is in my real life or in my opinion can be trusted - NONE of it. The only place i can get real life trustworthy opinions is by talking to other parents about their experience of MMR - real honest experiences.

[onecalledk]

hi squidge. I don't think that there would be too many people here that question the benefits of these vaccines that would not admit there is a large fear factor involved in this issue. We are speaking about a trillion dollar industry here. A trillion dollar industry that is one of the pillars of conventional medicine/allopathy. To properly understand the realities of the risks and benefits of vaccination you must contemplate just how big and bad the pharmaceutical industry is and what influence they have. Their business is sickness not wellness. Consider the fact that there is a vaccine that is regularly given to cats, every year in boosters in some countries. It was found that 160,000 cats a year were developing cancers at the injection site. (Veterinarian products committee working group on feline and canine vaccination, DEFRA May 2001) Did they withdraw the vaccine? No, they now inject cats in the tail and lower leg so, they can amputate in cases of the cancer instead. Have a think about that. This is not medicine. This is disgusting. This is what the medical cartel calls humane and ethical. Essentially, we see the same with the side effects in these vaccines we are told to give our children. Consider that eli lilli in the us came out with prozac. Which became their number 1 best selling drug. The most common side effect of prozac on the insert is psychosis. Eli lillis' 2nd best selling drug was an anti- psychosis drug. I think was called zyprexa. The most common side effect of this anti-psychosis drug was diabetes. I will let you guess what their 3rd best selling drug was for. They create their own markets especially in management pharaceuticals for chronic illness. Maybe you do not see the problem with this, but, i do. And it is a big part of the vaccine picture.

As someone who has had first hand experience of prozac and decended into the hell that was trying to come off this drug (mild post natal depression after birth of son, 1 yr of hell trying to get back off drug) I would never take a prescription drug ever again. The GP was not interested, citing my depression had returned. Yet the side efffects of prozac are very like the symptoms of depression. To not know what is real or a dream, to have hyper sensitive hearing, to have aches and pains that cripple you and to have a GP said oh well maybe we should just up the dose as your depression has returned !!!!!!

there are KNOWN deaths from Prozac, GLaxo suppressed medical trials information which showed a link between teenagers/young people and suicides when they were prescribed prozac and these were HEALTHY volunteers who had no history of suicide. GPs were then told NOT to prescribe prozac for anyone under the age of 18. Google Glaxo and prozac/peroxatine and find out the hell that GLAXO put millions of people through. They wanted to protect their profits at the end of the day. I personally know people who had the same reaction as I did to the drug.

I took Prozac for a matter of weeks until i missed ONE tablet, that was my decent into hell ........

I am one of the lucky ones, after a year of reducing the dose by 1mg every few days/weeks i got off the drug completely. There are those out there who can NEVER come off the drug and are now completely depend it on it. Major law suits in the US and a law suit was also pending in this country against GLAXO.

So to go back to the original debate about MMR and vaccines, would i trust a multi million pound industry whos bottom line is profit and who would rather pay compensation to those who die because of their wares than to give out proper information? NO ......

We are meddling with nature. We have or are on the verge of creating far far worse diseases than we are trying to cure by going down this vaccine path, just because a drug company says that they have a cure does not mean that it will not adverserly affect or kill you......

NATURE - does what it will, we CANNOT control mother nature, to think otherwise is egotistical in the extreme.

As a parent it is my responsiblity and duty to protect and care for my child. I would not put my childs life in the hands of a pharmaceutical company........


K

[Stavro]

Just a moment, I've just been reading roadbowler citing the money drug companies make from vaccines as their motive for covering up harmful effects.

The difference is that Dr. Wakefield had his research funded and then stood to gain nothing. If he concluded that MMR was safe, he would have had the research funding and then the floodgates would have opened for further funding from the government and the pharmaceutical companies. He concluded it was not, thus still getting the original research funding and then having very serious attempts made to ruin his career and discredit him to the utmost extent. In what way would he have benefitted most, given that the original funding was provided anyway?

Now ask yourself how the pharmaceutical industry conducts itself and what it has to gain?

[Stavro]

So to go back to the original debate about MMR and vaccines, would i trust a multi million pound industry whos bottom line is profit and who would rather pay compensation to those who die because of their wares than to give out proper information? NO ......

...

As a parent it is my responsiblity and duty to protect and care for my child. I would not put my childs life in the hands of a pharmaceutical company........

K

Very well said. :)

[fred]

The difference is that Dr. Wakefield had his research funded and then stood to gain nothing. If he concluded that MMR was safe, he would have had the research funding and then the floodgates would have opened for further funding from the government and the pharmaceutical companies. He concluded it was not, thus still getting the original research funding and then having very serious attempts made to ruin his career and discredit him to the utmost extent. In what way would he have benefitted most, given that the original funding was provided anyway?

He had filed for the patent on the single measles vaccine, he stood to make a fortune.


Now ask yourself how the pharmaceutical industry conducts itself and what it has to gain?

I ask myself if Dr Wakefield is any different. I never assume that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[roadbowler]

hello fred, before we go jumping into the wakefield measles vaccine patent media hype scandel hingie ma bob we need to clarify a few things here. First, who is the owner and applicant of this particular patent? It is not Dr. Wakefield, it is Royal Free. Secondly, it was hyped in the media as a "vaccine" to compete with the mmr. This is not correct. This patent was for a transfer factor, for use as a prophylaxis against measles virus and also a therapeutic agent for crohn's type illness and autism spectrum like illnesses. A transfer factor is not a vaccine. The best you could say is that it could be akin to a type of 'natural' vaccine. Even in this case you could not say it was akin to a vaccine that could so-called compete with the mmr as the application for the patent says it was to work on the cellular immune response. Ie. Work once the virus had already set in. Not prevent it from setting in at all as is the purpose of mmr. So, even a little understanding of transfer factor which the media fails to tell people about tells us there is no product competition with the mmr at all. The media make out that it could be some product that could potentially replace mmr and this is just silly. The interesting thing is tho that the theory they are building in this patent application is that the only competition with the mmr in this case is a persons own immune response boost using a natural preparation of cow colostrum. (imagine that, the body healing itself!) Basically, it is supposed to 'refresh the memory' of the immune system and kick it into gear. A vaccine is a preparation of a weakened or killed pathogen, ie. bacterium or virus that is normally injected into the body so as to stimulate the body to produce antibodies to said pathogen. A transfer factor is an immune messenger molecule that relays a 'memory' of a previous immune response from one immune system to another. It is also cross species! Ie. From cow to human or human to chicken. Transfer factor can be procured from say cow colostrum, chicken egg yolks and human blood etc. that have the particular immune memories required and then be transferred to another or same species via suppository or oral preparation. This is fairly new and controversial, yes! It may in fact mean the opposite of what you imply. Perhaps, Dr. Wakefield, recognises the problems of conventional vaccines and wishes to experiment with a much safer and effective approach. This is what good doctors should be doing!! Does it work in this case and is it effective? This is precisely the point of royal frees research. This was in preparation of a treatment trial, not a vaccine trial. So, definately nothing to do with a 'single measles vaccine product' at all.

[fred]

hello fred, before we go jumping into the wakefield measles vaccine patent media hype scandel hingie ma bob we need to clarify a few things here. First, who is the owner and applicant of this particular patent? It is not Dr. Wakefield, it is Royal Free. Secondly, it was hyped in the media as a "vaccine" to compete with the mmr.

That is probably because the patent he filed says:


"The present invention relates to a new vaccine for the elimination of MMR and measles virus and to a pharmaceutical or therapeutic composition for the treatment of IDB (Inflammatory Bowel Disease);"

[roadbowler]

fred, yes, elimination of the mmr virus. As in the live measles virus introduced into the vaccinee by the mmr. That is what Dr. Wakefield found to be causing the problem of the mmr. . . Persistant measles infection from the mmr.

[Stavro]

I have learnt a lot from the last four posts (those of fred and roadbowler). Thank you both very much.

This is and has been a quality debate in my opinion. And hopefully of benefit to those who have to make this decision.

[telfordstar]

I have learnt a lot from the last four posts (those of fred and roadbowler). Thank you both very much.

This is and has been a quality debate in my opinion. And hopefully of benefit to those who have to make this decision.


As the person who started his thread i have been delighted with the response from everyone and also found out alot that I didnt even know. A huge thanks to everyone for all your opinions as well as my own they have helped me alot. I have decided that for now my son isnt going to get the mmr jab as i am following my head and heart on this.

Thanks again to all.

[toodiemac]

I have to agree, this is a very informative thread - I have learned a lot from it.

It's a diffucult decision to make, but at the end of the day if parents are truly informed, with both the pros and cons, then that can only help the decision making process.

I know people who consider that even to question vaccinations is an "extreme" thing to do, which I find very strange in this day and age when we are all taking much more responsibility for our health and that of our children. It's good to see so many people are considering the information available rather than just thinking that it must always be okay because that's what we are told.

I think the majority of parents nowadays read food ingredients and think about what they are feeding their children, so it is only common sense to read vaccine ingredients and give consideration to that as well I would think.

[Margaret M.]

There is an outbreak of mumps in New York and New Jersey and the majority of those affected had received the MMR vaccine. As of today, 1,521 cases have been reported. The age group most impacted is between 7 -18 years and of those 85% had received the two recommended doses of the MMR vaccine.

[Leanne]

There is an outbreak of mumps in New York and New Jersey and the majority of those affected had received the MMR vaccine. As of today, 1,521 cases have been reported. The age group most impacted is between 7 -18 years and of those 85% had received the two recommended doses of the MMR vaccine.

What is the reported difference in morbidity and mortality between the vaccinated and unvaccinated? This would make a good study ;)

[Stavro]

There is an outbreak of mumps in New York and New Jersey and the majority of those affected had received the MMR vaccine. As of today, 1,521 cases have been reported. The age group most impacted is between 7 -18 years and of those 85% had received the two recommended doses of the MMR vaccine.

This is interesting. So 1292 children who had two MMR shots contracted mumps? Does this not discredit the idea that having the MMR vaccine protects children from mumps? And, if there is so little protection (if any), why subject children to the MMR vaccine? In fact, it seems highly likely that MMR gave them mumps! :eek:

[fred]

This is interesting. So 1292 children who had two MMR shots contracted mumps? Does this not discredit the idea that having the MMR vaccine protects children from mumps? And, if there is so little protection (if any), why subject children to the MMR vaccine? In fact, it seems highly likely that MMR gave them mumps! :eek:

No, it wasn't the MMR vaccine that gave them the mumps, it was a boy from Britain who carried the virus and passed it on to children at a summer camp in New Jersey last June.

The mumps vaccine is known to be only 85% effective but the disease is milder in the vaccinated other 15% than those not vaccinated.

If it wasn't for the vaccine there would be a lot more than 1292 cases.

[Turquoise]

That is probably because the patent he filed says:

Would you mind posting a link to the document please, Fred?

Thanks

[fred]

Would you mind posting a link to the document please, Fred?

Thanks

Certainly.

http://briandeer.com/wakefield/vaccine-patent.htm

[Stavro]

No, it wasn't the MMR vaccine that gave them the mumps, it was a boy from Britain who carried the virus and passed it on to children at a summer camp in New Jersey last June.

The mumps vaccine is known to be only 85% effective but the disease is milder in the vaccinated other 15% than those not vaccinated.

If it wasn't for the vaccine there would be a lot more than 1292 cases.

There were a lot more than 1292 cases. The point is that there should not have been 1292 cases because they had been vaccinated. What is the point of the MMR vaccine if a boy from Britain can still give them all mumps? :eek:

[roadbowler]

as per turquoises' request. I would also encourage you to read the actual patent application as well. Dr. Wakefield is not the owner nor applicant. There is also no truth to brian deers' claim that this is a patent for a 'single measles vaccine' as fred has questioned in his post which is apparent after reading the whole patent application.

Thanks for the heads up on the mumps outbreak Margaret M. I searched and found a recent cnn news article. I take it this is the one u saw too, fred? Cases now up to 2000. However, what struck me most wasn't how many vaccinated people are contracting it. As i've said before this is the rule, not the exception. But what did strike me was the fact that the vast majority of the affected in this outbreak are adult males. Mumps causes the most complications in adult males. Before mumps vaccine came out complications were very rare as most boys caught it naturally before puberty. Yes, before you say, lol, i am aware about the 'boys camp' but, that was in june. They dont mention if the 'british boy' was vaccinated either.

[fred]

There were a lot more than 1292 cases. The point is that there should not have been 1292 cases because they had been vaccinated. What is the point of the MMR vaccine if a boy from Britain can still give them all mumps? :eek:

So if wearing a seat belt only prevents serious injury in 85% of car crashes and makes the injuries less severe in the other 15% is it pointless wearing a seatbelt?

[fred]

as per turquoises' request. I would also encourage you to read the actual patent application as well. Dr. Wakefield is not the owner nor applicant. There is also no truth to brian deers' claim that this is a patent for a 'single measles vaccine' as fred has questioned in his post which is apparent after reading the whole patent application.


I think that's all rather irrelevant. He filed for a patent for a vaccine which would compete with the MMR vaccine even if it was the name of the research facility he worked for on the patent. Then a short time later a scare was started that MMR vaccine caused autism with a paper in the Lancet which was later discredited.

[roadbowler]

fred, irrelevant to actually read the entire patent application?? Relevant that you should substantiate your claims which i spent 2 posts turning these claims on their heads with facts. You are still claiming Dr. WAKEFIELD filed this patent application and is the owner and stands to make millions from it. His name does not appear on the application and he is not the owner. The Royal Free Hospital is the owner and applicant along with the company who produces the actual product. This can be verified from the application. He no longer even works at the Royal Free! Your second claim is that Dr. Wakefield filed a patent for a "single measles vaccine". You further claim that the application claims that the goal of the patent is to "eliminate the MMR". Which you insist means the MMR vaccine. Again, if you read the patent application you will see quite clearly that it mentions not once but, several times the product could be used to eliminate the persistent measles infection caused by the MMR live viruses from the body which they maintain causes crohn's disease! This can also be referred to as 'vaccine mediated disease' or "MMR virus". Have you also thought of the fact that to announce in a patent application that the "goal" of the patent applied for is to "eliminate" a vaccine or even any pharmaceutical on the market does not even make sense? I have attempted to also explain what the difference between a 'normal' vaccine and a transfer factor is but, perhaps my explanation is confusing so, i would encourage everyone interested to look into it. Transfer factors do not stimulate the body to produce protective antibodies as the MMR is designed to do. This is the cornerstone of any viral vaccine. Therefore, no direct product competition as you insist and certainly not a "single measles injection" to be used instead of the MMR as you imply. I will submit this though. Fact is, transfer factors as a whole are being used to reverse chronic conditions and diseases. They have been known to reverse some cancers as they are immune system boosters. They simply encourage a persons immune system to fight off disease. Therefore, this little known science of transfer factor therapy is a threat to the entire pharmaceutical industry! It has about as much marketable value as vitamins. No chemicals, no adverse side effects.

[Stavro]

So if wearing a seat belt only prevents serious injury in 85% of car crashes and makes the injuries less severe in the other 15% is it pointless wearing a seatbelt?

I do not see that your association is valid.

I also do not accept your rock-solid conviction that MMR actually works. In fact, the evidence from this revelation tends to imply that MMR not only does not work, but produces a high likelihood of giving the person mumps.

Dr. Wakefield's research has not been disproven, but only slighted on the grounds of financial funding. All medical research has to be funded, by its very nature, since it cannot be conducted overnight in a spare room.

[fred]

I do not see that your association is valid.

I also do not accept your rock-solid conviction that MMR actually works. In fact, the evidence from this revelation tends to imply that MMR not only does not work, but produces a high likelihood of giving the person mumps.

New York has a population of nearly 20 million, New Jersey over 8 million. If there have only been 2,000 cases of mumps reported then I think that is evidence the vaccine works.



Dr. Wakefield's research has not been disproven, but only slighted on the grounds of financial funding. All medical research has to be funded, by its very nature, since it cannot be conducted overnight in a spare room.

I didn't say it had been disproven, I said it had been discredited. He has been judged by his peers in the medical profession and found guilty on 30 counts.

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/8030/

[YummyMummy]

In my opinion if you have a genetic disposition to an autistic condition in the family please dont give your child the MMR jab.

This is early science and I have no link but the evidence I have gathered over 18 years would indicate genetics play a major part in developing this condition.
Something is "wrong" with their immune system and they just cant cope with the triple vaccine.




More or less in line with the Cuddlepop's point, I took the view that the MMR would be a bad idea with my son (now aged 9). Not because of the autistic link but because his immune system was lousy (constant ear infections since birth) and there was a lot of controversy at the time. I felt a triple shot would be too much for his system.

I opted for single vaccines that I arranged (and paid for). He displayed the usual symptoms that are often seen in children that have been immunised, but nothing more and they passed in time.

I would not have dreamt of not immunising him against MMR. [My daughter (who did have the MMR) had a serious case of mumps when she was younger and was very ill. Our GP advised it was caused by the low take-up of the MMR; increasing the risk to the entire population].

My son was diagnosed with autism, aged 6 and a half.

My fears about the MMR were reasonable given everything that I had to consider at the time. However, our children are, sadly, pre-disposed to autism. It is often the case that they do not have a firm diagnosis until school age (or their symptoms become more apparent after toddlerhood). It is understandable to want to pinpoint the "blame" on something - God knows, I read as many books searching for an answer. This is typical in dealing with such a condition and I daresay many parents of children with autism can relate to that.

I wish you the very best. Good luck with your decision.

[Stavro]

New York has a population of nearly 20 million, New Jersey over 8 million. If there have only been 2,000 cases of mumps reported then I think that is evidence the vaccine works.

But this never claimed to be over the whole of New York; it was a summer camp and, as such, provides a clearly-identified group. Now the fact remains that having an MMR jab did not stop 1292 people getting mumps. Therefore, the available evidence (since we do not have the figures for the whole of New York and NY is thus irrelevant) points to MMR not working, at least in regard to mumps - the worst of the three viruses.

[Vistravi]

as per turquoises' request. I would also encourage you to read the actual patent application as well. Dr. Wakefield is not the owner nor applicant. There is also no truth to brian deers' claim that this is a patent for a 'single measles vaccine' as fred has questioned in his post which is apparent after reading the whole patent application.

Thanks for the heads up on the mumps outbreak Margaret M. I searched and found a recent cnn news article. I take it this is the one u saw too, fred? Cases now up to 2000. However, what struck me most wasn't how many vaccinated people are contracting it. As i've said before this is the rule, not the exception. But what did strike me was the fact that the vast majority of the affected in this outbreak are adult males. Mumps causes the most complications in adult males. Before mumps vaccine came out complications were very rare as most boys caught it naturally before puberty. Yes, before you say, lol, i am aware about the 'boys camp' but, that was in june. They dont mention if the 'british boy' was vaccinated either.

This is why i'd ensure a lad of mine had the mumps vaccination. At least i can say that i won't just leave it to fate. Rubbella vaccination for a lassie of mine is a must too for the same reason. It is not for the desire of grandchildren one day that i would choose to do this it is simply that when the time came for them to decide that they wanted their own children and found that they couldn't due to contracting these diseases the effect would be devasting.

[Moby]

The Health Service and the Government are blaming the reducing uptake of the MMR vaccine as the reason to outbreaks of measles and mumps. They are aware this is because of increasing numbers of parents who do not have confidence in the MMR vaccine. At present the option of single vaccines is only available from private clinics in the central belt, this costing parents quite a substantial amount of time and money.

My question is - Why oh why will they not allow parents the right to choose between single vaccines and MMR on the NHS?

[Stavro]

My question is - Why oh why will they not allow parents the right to choose between single vaccines and MMR on the NHS?

Because the government has long lost sight of the fact that they only exist as public servants; instead they want to lord it over everyone.

[Leanne]

My question is - Why oh why will they not allow parents the right to choose between single vaccines and MMR on the NHS?

One word - Cost

[roadbowler]

moby, aye, i would agree with both stavro and leanne. They say it is much more expensive. Does anyone know how much of a cost difference it is out of interest? Then again, government went daft and spent a billion on swine flu vaccines without batting an eyelid most of which they'll end up throwing in the bin. My next question is, how do they dispose of it considering its contents?

[Leanne]

My next question is, how do they dispose of it considering its contents?

It will have at least an 18 month shelf life so will be available for use next year. No doubt we will have swine flu next year now it is in the population... It may or may not have mutated but if it hasn't the vaccine will still be good :) It's not like seasonal flu where there are a dozen varieties (yet).

I think they wanted to competely blitz it out so the virus dies a death never to be a problem again. Now they will have to take swine flu into account when offering seasonal vaccines. If control measures had worked then next year we wouldn't have had to worry about it...

Thank god it wasn't ebola or something... Imagine???

[fred]

moby, aye, i would agree with both stavro and leanne. They say it is much more expensive. Does anyone know how much of a cost difference it is out of interest? Then again, government went daft and spent a billion on swine flu vaccines without batting an eyelid most of which they'll end up throwing in the bin. My next question is, how do they dispose of it considering its contents?

They are hoping to sell some to other countries, presumably at a loss. One of the two batches they ordered the adjuvant comes separate and will be used with other vaccines. I don't think the vaccines will have been produced yet, it was a guaranteed order for which there hasn't been a delivery. What they can't sell or use they just won't get from the company that makes it but will have to pay for anyway.

[squidge]

I heard a guy on Radio four say it had a five year lifespan I think - certainly longer than 18 months.

[roadbowler]

vistravi, yea, i agree several issues at hand to weigh up including the one you point out. I still question why tho after it's now been found that girls vaccinated with the rubella vaccine show no antibodies in tests a year or so after vaccination why they still do it at the age they do. It appears to me this vaccine should only be part of a planned parenthood program or should be left to give to girls at school leaving age if at all. After all, we have half the population going about with cytomegalovirus and this causes a lot more severe birth defects than rubella. Then there is hiv as well which can be even more severe. I mean, all viruses have potential to cause birth defects. Viruses deplete the body of vitamin a which is crucial in foetal development. One thing i don't understand is why they push the rubella vaccine so hard to protect pregnant women and their unborn yet, at the same time they are very eager to give pregnant women the swine flu vaccine when it contains known teratogens. Namely thiomersal. My point about the mumps cases was that because of the vaccination against it which fails and fails again, the age range of males getting it is much older then before vaccination started making it a more dangerous disease. But, yea, orchitis can cause sterilisation. However, orchitis doesn't happen often in mumps cases and rarely does orchitis result in sterilisation.

[fred]

vistravi, yea, i agree several issues at hand to weigh up including the one you point out. I still question why tho after it's now been found that girls vaccinated with the rubella vaccine show no antibodies in tests a year or so after vaccination why they still do it at the age they do. It appears to me this vaccine should only be part of a planned parenthood program or should be left to give to girls at school leaving age if at all.

I fear in Dundee school leaving age would be pushing it a bit too far.

[roadbowler]

I fear in Dundee school leaving age would be pushing it a bit too far.

lol. you could hhave a point there

[Aaldtimer]

I fear leaving it anywhere at school leaving age would be leaving too late!
Dundee is only the latest figures...I seem to remember in the 70s it was Thurso!

[Vistravi]

vistravi, yea, i agree several issues at hand to weigh up including the one you point out. I still question why tho after it's now been found that girls vaccinated with the rubella vaccine show no antibodies in tests a year or so after vaccination why they still do it at the age they do. It appears to me this vaccine should only be part of a planned parenthood program or should be left to give to girls at school leaving age if at all. After all, we have half the population going about with cytomegalovirus and this causes a lot more severe birth defects than rubella. Then there is hiv as well which can be even more severe. I mean, all viruses have potential to cause birth defects. Viruses deplete the body of vitamin a which is crucial in foetal development. One thing i don't understand is why they push the rubella vaccine so hard to protect pregnant women and their unborn yet, at the same time they are very eager to give pregnant women the swine flu vaccine when it contains known teratogens. Namely thiomersal. My point about the mumps cases was that because of the vaccination against it which fails and fails again, the age range of males getting it is much older then before vaccination started making it a more dangerous disease. But, yea, orchitis can cause sterilisation. However, orchitis doesn't happen often in mumps cases and rarely does orchitis result in sterilisation.

The threat is still there none the less. As a parent it is my job to ensure my child is happy.

Aye i agree with you on the swine flu vacciantion. I was offered it because of my pregnancy but i refused as i was not going to run the risk on something untested and new. I want the best for my baby and the evidence about the effectivenss of the swine flu vaccination just didn't have me convinced it was a risk i wanted to take. I'm aware that if i caught swine flu i could die but if i had decided to get the vaccination against it and it made me lose my baby or caused problems for my baby then i would never forgive myself for it.

[Vistravi]

I fear leaving it anywhere at school leaving age would be leaving too late!
Dundee is only the latest figures...I seem to remember in the 70s it was Thurso!

It is a problem all round the uk. It worries me why so many young girls think they must have a boyfriend and must be doing certain things to be in the in crowd. The number of young lassies who just want to have a baby and a boyfriend is very worrying. But then again i am still young myself in some people'e eyes though i really do not feel it.

[Stavro]

It is a problem all round the uk. It worries me why so many young girls think they must have a boyfriend and must be doing certain things to be in the in crowd. The number of young lassies who just want to have a baby and a boyfriend is very worrying. But then again i am still young myself in some people'e eyes though i really do not feel it.

It could also be said that this behaviour is now being encouraged via bribery, of all things.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250905/45-shops-bribe-cervical-cancer-jab.html

This, too, is very worrying I think. :eek:

[roadbowler]

stavro, OMG! :eek: i canna believe that's going on. I had no idea. Ta for the heads up. "amounts" to bribery?? This is a very sad situation indeed. There are young lassies dropping dead from this vaccine and i thought it was bad enough they continue it nevermind essentially pay people to take this jab. Oh dear.

[Stavro]

stavro, OMG! :eek: i canna believe that's going on. I had no idea. Ta for the heads up. "amounts" to bribery?? This is a very sad situation indeed. There are young lassies dropping dead from this vaccine and i thought it was bad enough they continue it nevermind essentially pay people to take this jab. Oh dear.


I share your feelings and your assessment, roadbowler. Dr Wakefield & Co get defamed for legitimate funding, while the government/pharmaceutical industry bullies doctors and bribes girls who have no clue as to what is going on (nor seem to care). [evil]