View Full Version : hanced or enhanced disclosures
zarapopet
22-Jan-10, 18:54
i would like to know why everyone think enhanced disclosures works
i completely think they are not worth the paper they are written on .
you see i know of three people whom abused a child over a very long time 20 + years .
tried to get justice which failed due to lack of evidence due to time scale and someone not standing by her even though seen what went on.
theses sick individuals are able to get jobs working with children or vunerable people
why
because if not not convicted they dont go on the sex offenders register.
they are let off scot free.
so can someone explain how are we to know whom the real pedophiles are....
if not convicted. [evil][evil]
northener
22-Jan-10, 19:07
i would like to know why everyone think enhanced disclosures works
i completely think they are not worth the paper they are written on .
you see i know of three people whom abused a child over a very long time 20 + years .
tried to get justice which failed due to lack of evidence due to time scale and someone not standing by her even though seen what went on.
theses sick individuals are able to get jobs working with children or vunerable people
why
because if not not convicted they dont go on the sex offenders register.
they are let off scot free.
so can someone explain how are we to know whom the real pedophiles are....
if not convicted. [evil][evil]
In the eyes of the law, if someone is not convicted of a crime they are deemed innocent.
That is how the law works.
zarapopet
22-Jan-10, 19:17
ye well maybe but do you know that there is only 5% of sex offenders go to court due to the complexisity of evidance in historical cases because in my case i kmow 100 % what they did and was devistated when case dropped due to time scale ect [evil]
northener
22-Jan-10, 20:44
I know you've commented on your own personal problems before, Z.
Unfortunately, you cannot hold someone accountable for a crime in the UK unless they have been convicted. To follow your line of refusing those who have not been convicted fair access to the same rights and priveleges as everyone else is not acceptable. The result of this would be that everyone accused of a crime would be classed as guilty until proven otherwise. Hardly a fair and just system.
Let me put it this way, if the person who you are accusing were to come on here and counter-claim Libel, how would you react if your liberties were restricted just on their say-so?
How about false accusations against teachers and those who work with the young and vulnerable? Would it be fair to destroy their career on the basis of an unsubstantiated accusation?
Having said that, I believe that the Police etc have the power of objection if someone has been to court and cleared of any sex offence if there is sufficient grounds to be suspicious of their actions in general (or, say, a string of appearances for similar offences).
I'd like to hear if I'm right on that point, though.
That is the problem with enhanced disclosures though Z. They can only say what the person has been convicted of not of what they are capable of.
There was the case of that woman working in a nursery who was found with pictures of children from the nursery where she abused them. She will never work with children ever again. She will never be allowed or have the opportunity to hurt a child in a proffessional environment ever again as it will be on her criminal record. She will never work in any area that involves children. This would be in jobs that involved he general public as well.
You would think you can't be held accountable without a conviction in the UK but that is not the case in England. You can be refused a disclosure if you were a suspect in a case - even if there is no conviction. A very sad state of affairs IMHO. For teacher or others who work with children all you need is one pupil saying you did or said that and that could be your whole career.
zarapopet
23-Jan-10, 12:46
Yes i agree to some extent. but peodofiles do not always HAVE A convictions due to lack of evidance especially in historical cases they don't go on to the Sex offenders regester as they wern't convicted.
So what can we do .
Thereshould be a list that will flag up if they have investigated in such crimes .
Time and time again they are getting away with it. and they have got clean enhanced discalosure .
its how do we improve the system.
SO HOW DO WE PROTECT OUR SWEET INNOCENT CHILDREN FROM THESE SICK MINDED INDIVIDUALS THATS WHAT I WANT TO KNOW .
cuddlepop
23-Jan-10, 14:25
Yes i agree to some extent. but peodofiles do not always HAVE A convictions due to lack of evidance especially in historical cases they don't go on to the Sex offenders regester as they wern't convicted.
So what can we do .
Thereshould be a list that will flag up if they have investigated in such crimes .
Time and time again they are getting away with it. and they have got clean enhanced discalosure .
its how do we improve the system.
SO HOW DO WE PROTECT OUR SWEET INNOCENT CHILDREN FROM THESE SICK MINDED INDIVIDUALS THATS WHAT I WANT TO KNOW .
We cant is the answere to your question.
Until there is some way of "mind reading" individuals we have know idea how "genuine" they really are.
I know of people who work with vulnerable children and adults who have past all the disclosuers under the sun but they just dont " care".:~(
Just because someone cant communicate doesnt mean they dont understand.
Boozeburglar
23-Jan-10, 15:16
I don't know how it will be improved but I am sure it will be. The new system in England rolls out completely later this year. I don't know anything about what happens in Scotland, but I would expect it to be at least as good as the system in England.
Of course this kind of vetting only effectively deals with past offenders.
I don't see a way around that, perhaps more profiling and deeper scrutiny of people's backgrounds, but nothing will ever be 100%.
Shockingly few people end up with a conviction, but we need to bear in mind that no matter how incredibly devastating the actions of the few who commit these crimes is, they are very few, even accounting for the numbers who don't end up convicted.
That is cold comfort to any victim or their families, but it seems this point is missed by the tabloids whenever a case comes to light.
As has been said before,if people have not been convicted then they will not show up on Disclosure.
So can anyone tell me what the difference is between a normal disclosure and an enhanced disclosure? Obviously the enhanced one will go into more detail. But what exactly do they show?
Boozeburglar
23-Jan-10, 18:35
I think all the info is on the website.
:)
Here are the details for you girnigoe.
Basic Disclosure contains only convictions considered unspent under The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974.
Standard Disclosure contains all conviction information, spent and unspent, including cautions.
Enhanced Disclosure contains all conviction information, spent and unspent, and any other non conviction information considered to be relevant by the police or other Government bodies.
In answer to zarapopet I would imagine that the information concerning your accusations, although they did not involve a prosecution, may still be kept on file by the police and would then be disclosed on an Enhanced Disclosure. If any of these persons did apply for a job involving children or groups such as the infirm, elderly or mentally ill they must have an Enhanced Disclosure not a Basic or Standard one.
I understand that an enhanced disclosure includes accusations or allegations of sexual crimes which were not pursued.
Whilst i can understand the worries of parents trying to keep their children safe i too am concerned about false allegations. Recently some friends of mine have been through this ordeal when the guy was accused by his younger seriously mentally ill relative of sexual abuse. The young man made several allegations on a social networking site and my friend complained to the police about these allegations and was promptly arrested. As his wife was pregnant social services were involved and he was required to leave the marital home and only have supervised contacts with his new baby girl. This has continued for over a year and he has been living in B and B accommodation unable to work or do anything other than wait for the case to come to court. In the mean time his relative was sectioned under the mental health act. The court case was adjourned several times and finally took place recently. None of the evidence offered by the accuser added up, related to the original statements, made much sense and where his accuser had said that there was another child involved the other boy was totally clear that this was not true. His accuser is still in hospital and is clearly very poorly. The jury found that he was innocent, exonerated and told by the judge that there was not a stain on his character and he could leave the court head held high. Despite being found innocent which means that he has done nothing my friend is still not home with his family. Social services will not allow them to be together and want to review the evidence themselves despite them having no input into the case itself, it not being in their geographical area, it not relating to the child they have together and the judge stating that he was innocent. There is no indication of how long it will take for them to be allowed to live together, or how long it will take to get their own child off the at risk register and it is not clear what social services are looking for in reviewing the evidence. They both have a feeling that social services were DISAPPOINTED that he was cleared. Its very frustrating and worrying for them.
So can anyone tell me what the difference is between a normal disclosure and an enhanced disclosure? Obviously the enhanced one will go into more detail. But what exactly do they show?
A normal disclosure is like a reference for working in a shop, someones home or a pet sitting agency etc.Convistions are checked and noted.
the enhanced disclosure is a more thorough police check that you can work for elderly or vunerable people or children.All previous convictions are noted.
Your records are checked by the police
changilass
24-Jan-10, 01:06
Aye things are checked, but they miss things.
I had 2 disclosures done within 6 months of each other. One showed I had a speeding offence 5 years earlier and the other didn't. They were both enhanced disclosures, on behalf of the same agency for the same position.
Things do get missed.
In the eyes of the law, if someone is not convicted of a crime they are deemed innocent.
That is how the law works.
You would think but see below.
Here are the details for you girnigoe.
Basic Disclosure contains only convictions considered unspent under The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974.
Standard Disclosure contains all conviction information, spent and unspent, including cautions.
Enhanced Disclosure contains all conviction information, spent and unspent, and any other non conviction information considered to be relevant by the police or other Government bodies.
In answer to zarapopet I would imagine that the information concerning your accusations, although they did not involve a prosecution, may still be kept on file by the police and would then be disclosed on an Enhanced Disclosure. If any of these persons did apply for a job involving children or groups such as the infirm, elderly or mentally ill they must have an Enhanced Disclosure not a Basic or Standard one.
... Recently some friends of mine have been through this ordeal when the guy was accused by his younger seriously mentally ill relative of sexual abuse. ...The jury found that he was innocent, exonerated and told by the judge that there was not a stain on his character and he could leave the court head held high. ...They both have a feeling that social services were DISAPPOINTED that he was cleared. Its very frustrating and worrying for them.
Even if this is finally cleared by social services that flag will be on his record and the chances are he will never be able to work with children.
I appreciate that children need to be protected but putting up flags against false accusations raises a lot of concerns - Innocent until proven guilty.
zarapopet
24-Jan-10, 11:06
where this is where them that make false alligations should be charged by the courts as it is hard enough trying to get the juatice for true abuse cases without these clowns making up alligations . i know of 2 people whoms made false alligations and it made me sick when nothing was done about it not even a warning maybe we should take them to court and get convictions against them as i doubt very much its on there disclosures,
i am sorry for what your fam is going through and i hope you get things resolved very soon .
but still think need more to protect our kids innocence as the sick individuals are very snneaky and clever and they come from all walks of life.
I have very little faith in the Disclosure process.
I know of one man who applied for his Disclosure through Uni and was amazed when it came back to say that at he was suspected of using and dealing class A drugs.
1/This guy had never been questioned by the police and had geniunely no history of class A drug use.
He tried very hard to challenge it but basially the offical stance was if a policeman/woman suspects something they can and do make it official with or without your knowledge and at 16 some local police has suspected he was using and dealing.
It remains on his Disclosure but he now puts in a letter of explanation along with job appliactions plus a letter from his solictor to say he legally challenged this.
2/ Another young man had his knuckles wrapped at 17 when it was discovered he was having sex with his 15 year old girlfriend, it did not go to court and he was not charged as the PF decided that it was an evenly balanced relationship and he in no way was abusing her. They were stupid and he did break the law but no abuse. On his Disclosure it states he was suspected of having sex with an underage person.
He has found this impossible to challenge or have removed.
Both these are police input, it scares me that just one persons view of what may or may not have happened can completely destroy someone elses future career.
I also work with people who have clear Disclosures but set off every gut instinct /alarm in my body and although they have never done or said anything inappropriate I just get a bad vibe from them.
I think most people who work within this area would agree there are some huge problems with Disclosures, I dont think it works but I can't think of what would.
I think it is unfair to have information that wasn't proved in a court on a Disclosure but by the same turn I wouldn't take a clear Disclosure as a statement of innocence.
Who looks at the Disclosure certificates obtained by self-employed people?
Whoever is employing them.
In residential units or in schools in the case of the school buying in services such as dance/music etc they should check that the people coming in have Disclosures.
They should also check trades people who may be working in the school whilst it is open to pupils.
This is not the case though as I know of at least one primary school locally where the dinner ladies have never had an enhanced Disclosure.
Whoever is employing them.
Who employs driving instructors or private tutors (e.g. for maths, english, music lessons, etc.) Do parents ask to see the enhanced disclosures?
As a parent I haven't asked to see anyones but I am sure there are parents who have.
But I have never used private tutors.
I know the football coaches who used to work with my son stated on their consent forms that all people working with children had been subject to enhanced disclosure.
I am pretty sure they were self employed.
I imagine anyone who has any concerns about anyone working with their children or any vulnerable groups has the right to enquire about it.
As a parent I haven't asked to see anyones but I am sure there are parents who have.
But I have never used private tutors.
I know the football coaches who used to work with my son stated on their consent forms that all people working with children had been subject to enhanced disclosure.
I am pretty sure they were self employed.
I imagine anyone who has any concerns about anyone working with their children or any vulnerable groups has the right to enquire about it.
The thing is that anyone can "get" an enhanced disclosure. The form you get back just states anything that is found when the searches are done. So "having" an enhanced disclosure is not enough.
Employers get a copy of the paperwork and so can review anything on the report but this will not be the case for self-employed people.
Actually when I think about it Gollach, I don't think an individual can apply for an Enhanced Disclosure only a Basic one.
Actually when I think about it Gollach, I don't think an individual can apply for an Enhanced Disclosure only a Basic one.
Sorry, you are right, I should have checked more closely :roll:
The info is at
http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/apply/individuals/standard-enhanced/
I'm still at a loss to explain the usefulness of a disclosure if self-employed though. Who would know to ask to see it?
Boozeburglar
25-Jan-10, 00:12
It is the same as needing to be certified to fit a gas boiler, how many of us ask to see any proof? You still need the certs to do that work.
:)
This page... Eligible Posts (http://www.crb.homeoffice.gov.uk/guidance/rb_guidance/eligible_posts.aspx)
outlines all positions for which a CRB disclosure can be applied for, it is unlawful for an employer to use the service of the CRB just becuase it wants to check on potential employees.
The difference between a standard and an enhanced check is that a standard check only checks information held on the police national computer. An enhanced check includes information held by every local police force where you have lived, information such as if you were simply investigated for relevant offences regardless to the outcome. Also an enchanced check reveals information held by the ISA (Used to be the POVA and POCA and List 99).
dx
This page... Eligible Posts (http://www.crb.homeoffice.gov.uk/guidance/rb_guidance/eligible_posts.aspx)
outlines all positions for which a CRB disclosure can be applied for, it is unlawful for an employer to use the service of the CRB just becuase it wants to check on potential employees.
The difference between a standard and an enhanced check is that a standard check only checks information held on the police national computer. An enhanced check includes information held by every local police force where you have lived, information such as if you were simply investigated for relevant offences regardless to the outcome. Also an enchanced check reveals information held by the ISA (Used to be the POVA and POCA and List 99).
dx
Or were supspected of being involved in.
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