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crayola
28-Dec-09, 19:47
Does anyone else find this case extremely disturbing?

Briton Akmal Shaikh faces 'final hours' on death row (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8432948.stm)


A British man found guilty of drug smuggling in China is facing what could be his final hours on death row.

Akmal Shaikh, of London, has reportedly been told by his family that he faces death at 1030 (0230 GMT) on Tuesday.

The 53-year-old denied all knowledge of 4kg of heroin found on him in the north-western city of Urumqi in 2007.

His family say he is mentally ill. His daughter Leilla Hornsell told the BBC: "I don't think he will be able to really understand what's happening."

Prime Minister Gordon Brown has urged the Chinese government to show clemency towards Mr Shaikh, who is believed to suffer from bipolar disorder.

joxville
28-Dec-09, 19:54
Does anyone else find this case extremely disturbing?

Yes. How someone who is proud to be Asian becomes British when he's facing a death penalty disturbs me.

Rheghead
28-Dec-09, 19:56
Would it be fair to say that being bi-polar doesn't affect one's sense of right and wrong?

Serenity
28-Dec-09, 20:03
Would it be fair to say that being bi-polar doesn't affect one's sense of right and wrong?

You are correct there but the press are reporting it wrong. He was tricked into taking the drugs by someone who told him he had a record deal (or something similar) in China. The guy said he would meet him at the airport and fly him over. He never met him but asked him to take his luggage. Bi-polar does not affect one's sense of right and wrong but it would make him be so over-excited by this prospect that he didn't think it through. At least that is what I remember from reading it a while ago.

joxville
28-Dec-09, 20:25
Would it be fair to say that being bi-polar doesn't affect one's sense of right and wrong?

Absolutely. My brothers wife has been *loopy for about 40 years, it's only in the last few years she was diagnosed as being bi-polar. She knows fully the difference between right and wrong.







*Not my term, loopy is how my s-i-l describes herself, personally I would use fruitcake.

crayola
28-Dec-09, 20:37
I don't know anything much about bipolar disorder but even the story as presented by Reprieve sounds very odd.

Reprieve version of events (http://www.reprieve.org.uk/akmalshaikh)

What was he doing in Poland? Was he up to no good there or is he just a loopy easily-led fruitcake or what? :confused

I am generally not in favour of the death penalty (apart from for fundamental political correctness, bankers gambling with our future and being George W Bush) and I don't approve of the state killing people for being drug-running fruitcakes.

Serenity
28-Dec-09, 20:48
I am generally not in favour of the death penalty (apart from for fundamental political correctness, bankers gambling with our future and being George W Bush) and I don't approve of the state killing people for being drug-running fruitcakes.

I'm not in favour of the death penalty at all but that is beside the point in this case.

Rheghead
28-Dec-09, 20:53
You are correct there but the press are reporting it wrong. He was tricked into taking the drugs by someone who told him he had a record deal (or something similar) in China. The guy said he would meet him at the airport and fly him over. He never met him but asked him to take his luggage. Bi-polar does not affect one's sense of right and wrong but it would make him be so over-excited by this prospect that he didn't think it through. At least that is what I remember from reading it a while ago.

How did Akmal Shaikh get hold of someone's luggage without a meeting?

Boozeburglar
28-Dec-09, 20:53
Yes. How someone who is proud to be Asian becomes British when he's facing a death penalty disturbs me.


He is a British National. Nothing to do with what he is facing. He has every right to be a proud Asian. Nothing to do with the issue.

Boozeburglar
28-Dec-09, 20:55
I don't know anything much about bipolar disorder


is he just a loopy easily-led fruitcake or what?

You don't know much about it?

I would guess one as wise as you knows more than you suggest.

hails4
28-Dec-09, 20:56
I'm for the death penalty, it would make people think twice about what they are doing. How you can blow up a bus or school etc in this country and in effect be let away is beyond me. A nice coushy cell with a ps3 and tv hours etc all on the tax payers expense? Id pay have them rightfully executed.

Serenity
28-Dec-09, 20:56
How did Akmal Shaikh get hold of someone's luggage without a meeting?

That was a typo, I meant the guy claimed he couldn't fly with him. Read Crayola's link.

Rheghead
28-Dec-09, 20:57
ok no worries.

4kg is quite a lot to deny knowledge over, not like a wee envelope. That is 20% of what you are allowed in baggage before you get surcharged.

crayola
28-Dec-09, 21:00
You don't know much about it?

Yet you choose to use those terms?

Unlike you, I have to say..
I chose to use jox's descriptions.

Boozeburglar
28-Dec-09, 21:13
I did not see fruitcake mentioned before.



Just wanted to be clear, because it does not seem like you at all.

Vistravi
28-Dec-09, 21:22
I'm for the death penalty, it would make people think twice about what they are doing. How you can blow up a bus or school etc in this country and in effect be let away is beyond me. A nice coushy cell with a ps3 and tv hours etc all on the tax payers expense? Id pay have them rightfully executed.

Aye but it has to be absoultly certain that the person is guilty. One of the reasons capital punishment was abolished was because they were killing innocent people.

I do think for convicted peodphilles and serial killers capital punishment is the only way to handle them. But again they have to be proven without a doubt that they are guilty.

bekisman
28-Dec-09, 21:25
'the Chinese have a habit of reprieving at the very last minute' anon

we'll have to wait and see...

bullielove
28-Dec-09, 21:37
I don't know anything much about bipolar disorder but even the story as presented by Reprieve sounds very odd.

Reprieve version of events (http://www.reprieve.org.uk/akmalshaikh)

What was he doing in Poland? Was he up to no good there or is he just a loopy easily-led fruitcake or what? :confused

I am generally not in favour of the death penalty (apart from for fundamental political correctness, bankers gambling with our future and being George W Bush) and I don't approve of the state killing people for being drug-running fruitcakes.

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfo/problems/bipolardisorder/bipolardisorder.aspx

the link above will tell anyone who is genuinely interested in bipolar how it effects sufferers including how it affects judgement, beliefs and emotions..

I hope there isnt anyone who has bipolar reading this thread as the terminology used is insulting to say the least and I hope that future posters will consider the language they use to describe others who experience mental health problems - at the end of the day mental health problems will affect one in four of you at some point

Rheghead
28-Dec-09, 21:41
The last time I flew was nearly 5 years ago and I'm sure I was given a card which I had to sign which made me declare that the luggage I was carrying was mine and not belonging to another. I wonder if this guy had to do the same?

Alan16
28-Dec-09, 22:45
On the whole I'm not against the death penalty - for example I'd be quite happy for it to be used on Tobin and those of similar ilk - but for this case it seems a bit excessive. He certainly deserves jail time, for being unbelievably stupid if nothing else - to quote somebody "I'm not saying we should kill stupid people, but just take the safety labels off things and let nature take its course". The man may have bi-polar whatever, but from what I've read he is to all intents and purposes a fully functioning human being who should have had an understanding that what he was doing was wrong. To kill a man because he smuggled heroin (a lot of the stuff mind) is not right though. I hope they do not go through with the execution (which I believe will entail him being shot in the neck which seems very archaic) but I expect that they will.

JimH
28-Dec-09, 22:53
I have no knowledge of Bi polar, foot and mouth or foot rot - but the golden rule "when in Rome do as the Romans do" has always been the best policy when in other countries.
Regardless of what we think, we have no right to interfere in the laws of other nations.
The fact that a foreign national committing the same offense in this country would be given a cup of tea and have his wrist slapped does not change the situation. The penalty in China is death - amen.

Alan16
28-Dec-09, 22:55
I have no knowledge of Bi polar, foot and mouth or foot rot - but the golden rule "when in Rome do as the Romans do" has always been the best policy when in other countries.
Regardless of what we think, we have no right to interfere in the laws of other nations.
The fact that a foreign national committing the same offense in this country would be given a cup of tea and have his wrist slapped does not change the situation. The penalty in China is death - amen.

Nah, that's to easy a way out. That may be what they do, but it doesn't make it right.

Boozeburglar
28-Dec-09, 23:09
Regardless of what we think, we have no right to interfere in the laws of other nations.

Mmmmhhhhh.

If this were two 13 year old girls facing being stoned to death because they had been raped, in some small country with strong economical ties with the UK and no army to speak of..

You really think that would then apply?

We either have principles or we don't.

We should not be allowing other nations to extradite our citizens if we consider they might get unfair or inhumane treatment, and we should do all we can to prevent our citizens suffering a fate that is not in accordance with our own Law.

It is all every well to suggest people should face the punishment of the country they happen to have been found guilty in, but what if that country has a reputation for inhumane treatment and injustice?

Rheghead
28-Dec-09, 23:27
Mmmmhhhhh.

If this were two 13 year old girls facing being stoned to death because they had been raped, in some small country with strong economical ties with the UK and no army to speak of..

You really think that would then apply?

We either have principles or we don't.

We should not be allowing other nations to extradite our citizens if we consider they might get unfair or inhumane treatment, and we should do all we can to prevent our citizens suffering a fate that is not in accordance with our own Law.

It is all every well to suggest people should face the punishment of the country they happen to have been found guilty in, but what if that country has a reputation for inhumane treatment and injustice?

That is an interesting post. One which throws up an obvious dilemma.

If we are right to interfere into other countries because of injusticies/attrocities or human rights abuses then what are the avenues for us to go down?

bullielove
28-Dec-09, 23:28
Mmmmhhhhh.

If this were two 13 year old girls facing being stoned to death because they had been raped, in some small country with strong economical ties with the UK and no army to speak of..

You really think that would then apply?

We either have principles or we don't.

We should not be allowing other nations to extradite our citizens if we consider they might get unfair or inhumane treatment, and we should do all we can to prevent our citizens suffering a fate that is not in accordance with our own Law.


It is all every well to suggest people should face the punishment of the country they happen to have been found guilty in, but what if that country has a reputation for inhumane treatment and injustice?

I think this is a very good point Boozeburgler

Much more helpful than the view of I dont know anything about bipolar but shoot them anyway because they have done wrong.. I wonder if the view would remain the same if people had personal experience of bipolar or they took the time to find out about it before sitting in the judgement seat.

Boozeburglar
28-Dec-09, 23:54
That is an interesting post. One which throws up an obvious dilemma.

If we are right to interfere into other countries because of injusticies/attrocities or human rights abuses then what are the avenues for us to go down?

I am answering a point made that it is none of our business to interfere.

Truth is we DO. There are countless examples, no need to drag this thread into a discussion on them.

Alan16
29-Dec-09, 00:02
I am answering a point made that it is none of our business to interfere.

Yeah, the problem is that you're wrong...

Boozeburglar
29-Dec-09, 00:05
Wrong about?

Alan16
29-Dec-09, 00:07
Wrong about?

Well you said that it isn't our business to interfere. In my opinion, you're wrong.

BINBOB
29-Dec-09, 00:11
Would it be fair to say that being bi-polar doesn't affect one's sense of right and wrong?

I think in some cases it can,have a friend with bi polar ....and depending on the phase she is in,she can find it difficult to rationalise right from wrong.Has never landed her in trouble..............so far.

Vistravi
29-Dec-09, 00:16
Well you said that it isn't our business to interfere. In my opinion, you're wrong.

Too much interfernce is bad though. Looking at children for example (only because i work with them ;)) too much interference in their play and what they do can destroy their play experience and there enjoyment of it.

The trick of all interfering is making sure you do not go too far and use only the correct amount. It is a thin line.

Boozeburglar
29-Dec-09, 00:33
Well you said that it isn't our business to interfere. In my opinion, you're wrong.

Actually that is not what I said..

I was answering someone else suggesting that.

My point was that if we have principles we don't choose to get involved only when we know we can succeed.

Easy to get lost with this system that only quotes part of the post we are referring to..

:)

Alan16
29-Dec-09, 00:41
Actually that is not what I said..

I was answering someone else suggesting that.

My point was that if we have principles we don't choose to get involved only when we know we can succeed.

Easy to get lost with this system that only quotes part of the post we are referring to..

:)

Ah, you're right. Got the wrong person. Apologies.

Boozeburglar
29-Dec-09, 00:44
Ah, you're right. Got the wrong person. Apologies.

This is a lame system where when I quote you it does not show the quote you have made and are referring to! :)

Alan16
29-Dec-09, 00:45
This is a lame system where when I quote you it does not show the quote you have made and are referring to! :)

Yeah, on another website I use, it has the system you talk about and it makes things make a lot more sense.

Metalattakk
29-Dec-09, 01:04
This is a lame system where when I quote you it does not show the quote you have made and are referring to! :)


Yeah, on another website I use, it has the system you talk about and it makes things make a lot more sense.

Easy-peasy. Just use the ''+ icon next to the quote button for the first quote, then the quote button for the second.

Boozeburglar
29-Dec-09, 01:19
should be automatic

we are quoting the post

we edit out the parts of the post we dont want, we should not have to edit in

Metalattakk
29-Dec-09, 01:38
:cry:

Live with it.

Boozeburglar
29-Dec-09, 01:41
I would say I already am; just reacting to this instance where it caused a misunderstanding..

But thanks for the advice. I don't actually remember reading anything that suggested you are the one who decides what we have to live with..

Metalattakk
29-Dec-09, 01:50
I've given you a work-around. It's up to you to use it, or munt about it. Entirely your choice, of course. ;)

Boozeburglar
29-Dec-09, 02:10
I only munted, briefly, that it should not be that way in the first place. My opinion. You are welcome to yours.

crayola
29-Dec-09, 02:26
Will you two please stop fighting amongst yourselves because I'm going to need your help if those illegitimates murder Akmal Shaikh. I don't think I can invade China single-handed but with your help we might succeed.

Aaldtimer
29-Dec-09, 03:33
Will you two please stop fighting amongst yourselves because I'm going to need your help if those illegitimates murder Akmal Shaikh. I don't think I can invade China single-handed but with your help we might succeed.

Sorry Crayo, however distasteful it may be,and it is very inhuman, China will go it's own way...no point in peeing against the wind.

What the hell does "munt" mean anyway?:(

Metalattakk
29-Dec-09, 03:39
What the hell does "munt" mean anyway?:(

It means 'cry' or 'girn'. It may be Kaitness dialect, it may not. Boozeburglar kent fat hid meant lek, chek. ;)

Aaldtimer
29-Dec-09, 03:54
Well in 30 years of living up here , I've never heard that one!
"Cown", I would have understood lek!:)

Metalattakk
29-Dec-09, 04:16
I think 'munt' is more of a whiny, whingey, moany sort of girn. If that makes sense.

Anyway, back on topic. The distinct lack of news being reported at this time leads me to believe that things have gone badly. If a reprieve had been granted, damn sure the gov.uk would be shouting about it by now. :(

Metalattakk
29-Dec-09, 05:29
Execution confirmed (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/29/akmal-shaikh-execution-china).

For shame. [mad]

horseman
29-Dec-09, 07:40
Execution confirmed (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/29/akmal-shaikh-execution-china).

For shame. [mad]

May the good Lord God help bless an protect his immortal soul.:mad:

Bazeye
29-Dec-09, 11:04
I have no knowledge of Bi polar, foot and mouth or foot rot - but the golden rule "when in Rome do as the Romans do" has always been the best policy when in other countries.

Just a pity the colonisers of this country dont take heed of this advice,but thats another story.

bcsman
29-Dec-09, 11:06
yes,i agree
he did the crime so let him swing high.

Bobinovich
29-Dec-09, 11:42
IMO anyone who carries luggage for another blindly, without examining it thoroughly first, has to accept everything that comes to them.

The sentence is extreme but there's been enough high-profile cases in the past which should make all travellers aware of the potential trouble they could get themselves into.

Tubthumper
29-Dec-09, 11:48
Every so often there's a splurge of demands for the return of capital punishment in the UK. But not when there's a case like this in the news. Why is that?

Bobinovich
29-Dec-09, 11:58
Most calls for capital punishment in this country are for child molesters, rapists, murderers, etc., rather than for possibly mentally compromised, overly trusting (aka gullible) individuals such as this.

Boozeburglar
29-Dec-09, 12:05
IMO anyone who carries luggage for another blindly, without examining it thoroughly first, has to accept everything that comes to them.

The sentence is extreme but there's been enough high-profile cases in the past which should make all travellers aware of the potential trouble they could get themselves into.


I think the issue really is whether or not someone should face the death penalty or not, and whether their mental health should be considered as mitigation.

It could equally well have been a smaller amount, sewn into a case that he was given to carry something he did examine carefully. People can indeed be tricked into carrying drugs, but that is really not the central issue.

As for our government's role in this. Wherever in the world you get stuck in whatever situation you can expect the government to go to bat for you, it is part of what you pay your taxes here for, and your right as a citizen.

Boozeburglar
29-Dec-09, 12:07
Well in 30 years of living up here , I've never heard that one!
"Cown", I would have understood lek!:)

You cannot have gone thirty years without hearing that expression. Perhaps you just made no mental note of it. Still, nothing to munt about.

octane
29-Dec-09, 12:26
Seems common place that quite a lot plays the "mental/medical" card when they do illegal activities and get caught and punished for it....if only Britain had the balls to follow suit. Human rights etc.......too much protection for the criminal rather than the vicitms.

Off with there heads.....burn them.....shock them......stone them......drown them......bleed them slowly..........gas them......or as the goverment seems to know better, let them suffer with PS3's, dvd's, games rooms, free meals and round the clock pampering in our jails.


Thumbs up China and do what you do best, just erradicate them for good!!!

Boozeburglar
29-Dec-09, 13:04
I wonder how many here would be quite so gleeful to see one of their own relatives being executed for this crime? How sure would you be that they were given a fair hearing? Is China now the measure of moral authority in your world?

How about Saudi?

Iran?

Pakistan?

Would you be satisfied your family member was given fair treatment in any of these places?

golach
29-Dec-09, 13:05
He was caught smuggling drugs in a country that has the Death penalty. tough.

Metalattakk
29-Dec-09, 13:15
Seems common place that quite a lot plays the "mental/medical" card when they do illegal activities and get caught and punished for it....if only Britain had the balls to follow suit. Human rights etc.......too much protection for the criminal rather than the vicitms.

Off with there heads.....burn them.....shock them......stone them......drown them......bleed them slowly..........gas them......or as the goverment seems to know better, let them suffer with PS3's, dvd's, games rooms, free meals and round the clock pampering in our jails.


Thumbs up China and do what you do best, just erradicate them for good!!!

It's a good job readers of The Daily Star and The Sun don't run this country, I would say.

stewart4364
29-Dec-09, 13:21
Munt does not appear to be cry , girn etc. and I do not think it is a Caithness word. From the Scot Glossary the meaning of munt is given as mount + prepare to mount + a hill.

Metalattakk
29-Dec-09, 13:34
Munt does not appear to be cry , girn etc. and I do not think it is a Caithness word. From the Scot Glossary the meaning of munt is given as mount + prepare to mount + a hill.

Google is great, isn't it? How come people have been using the word (to mean 'cry' etc.) in Caithness for so long then?

Boozeburglar
29-Dec-09, 13:55
I have to agree with Metal.

Munt is a word I have known all my life and heard used all around me by others meaning to cry physically or moan about something.

gleeber
29-Dec-09, 14:09
I have to agree with Metal.

Munt is a word I have known all my life and heard used all around me by others meaning to cry physically or moan about something.

You may have known it all your life but it's not a caithness word. Aaldtimer never heard it in 30 years and in 60 years ive only heard it as a derogatory term to describe a Black African.

stewart4364
29-Dec-09, 14:15
Google is great, isn't it? How come people have been using the word (to mean 'cry' etc.) in Caithness for so long then?


I spoke to someone with a very wide knowledge of Caithness words and as far as he is concerned munt is not a Caithness word -- it is a Scots word with the meaning I quoted.

Boozeburglar
29-Dec-09, 14:21
I am not claiming it is Caithness in origin, but it is a word that is used in Caithness; and it is used to mean what we are saying. Your friend's knowledge is obviously not complete, or is not inclusive of words in common use.

It is not really a debate.

It is a fact that it is used to mean what we are saying it means.

stewart4364
29-Dec-09, 14:26
Munt does not appear to be cry , girn etc. and I do not think it is a Caithness word. From the Scot Glossary the meaning of munt is given as mount + prepare to mount + a hill.


I must have mount on the brain. What I should have quoted instead of prepare to mount was prepare to depart. Better get back to taking the tablets.

webmannie
29-Dec-09, 15:26
Whil ye al stopit 'muntin' yer diyan ma heid in

Metalattakk
29-Dec-09, 15:31
Whil ye al stopit 'muntin' yer diyan ma heid in
Ooh, someone's taking the dorts now. :D

Tubthumper
30-Dec-09, 11:46
I'm a bit disturbed. Our government makes strong representations, expresses outrage etc, when a 'mentally-ill' drug smuggler gets capped in China, and yet can do nothing to prevent the extradition of a confirmed mentally-ill computer hacker to the US to face a virtual life sentence?
Any ideas?

Tom Cornwall
30-Dec-09, 11:54
I'm a bit disturbed. Our government makes strong representations, expresses outrage etc, when a 'mentally-ill' drug smuggler gets capped in China, and yet can do nothing to prevent the extradition of a confirmed mentally-ill computer hacker to the US to face a virtual life sentence?
Any ideas?

I agree with that thought, but also where was Shaiks family if he was in such a state, before he went to China...were they doing anything for him to get him help for his condition...

Tubthumper
30-Dec-09, 13:20
I agree with that thought, but also where was Shaiks family if he was in such a state, before he went to China...were they doing anything for him to get him help for his condition...
What condition? No evidence of him ever having a mental problem was shown. And his family now have the cheek to complain about Britain's powerlessness!

joxville
30-Dec-09, 14:06
What condition? No evidence of him ever having a mental problem was shown. And his family now have the cheek to complain about Britain's powerlessness!
Yeah, that annoyed me. If his family feel so strongly about it then maybe they ought to beggar off back to Pakistan, which has such a strong government and looks after it's people....I'll even go to the airport and wave them off. [disgust]

gleeber
30-Dec-09, 14:16
Yeah, that annoyed me. If his family feel so strongly about it then maybe they ought to beggar off back to Pakistan, which has such a strong government and looks after it's people....I'll even go to the airport and wave them off. [disgust]
It's good to see the juices running freely now. :~(

joxville
30-Dec-09, 14:21
I'm sick to the back teeth of foreigners and 'foreign nationals' knocking this country. It's not perfect, no place is, so if they don't like it we have many air and sea ports from which to depart our shores.

Tubthumper
30-Dec-09, 14:26
Never mind that 'back to Pakistan' crap, I'm wondering where the consistency is, in both our government's international relations policies and our good old independent. non knee-jerking press?

changilass
30-Dec-09, 14:43
I just wonder why a so called caring family allow their mentally ill family member to travel all over the world on his own. Surely if he was that mentally disturbed and easily led they would have feared for his safety and accompanied him and he wouldn't have gotten in the situation.

Just a thought.

Tubthumper
30-Dec-09, 15:41
Fair point Changi. Gary McKinnon's family seem to care deeply for him, although its done them no good whatsoever.

golach
30-Dec-09, 15:52
Fair point Changi. Gary McKinnon's family seem to care deeply for him, although its done them no good whatsoever.

Tubs, Gary Mckinnon is a Scot, so not so important to the Engerlander Media. I do not see Wee Eck getting involved, in this one either, maybe he does not want to upset D Trump in anyway [disgust]

cuddlepop
30-Dec-09, 17:35
Tubs, Gary Mckinnon is a Scot, so not so important to the Engerlander Media. I do not see Wee Eck getting involved, in this one either, maybe he does not want to upset D Trump in anyway [disgust]


Or maybe its the fact that Westminster does not want to upset their American relationship,so will gladly through Gary to the "lions".[evil]

Boozeburglar
30-Dec-09, 22:42
I'm sick to the back teeth of foreigners and 'foreign nationals' knocking this country. It's not perfect, no place is, so if they don't like it we have many air and sea ports from which to depart our shores.

What about those complainers who were born here?

Don't you want them to leave as well?

Does your disdain only apply when you can argue the notion that someone does not belong?

Those that chose to make their home here, (or whose parents did), are less valid commentators on the state of the nation?

So what of those who came here escaping the death camps?

Are their critical views on modern Britain equally unwelcome?

Should they 'go home'?????

joxville
31-Dec-09, 03:41
What about those complainers who were born here?

Don't you want them to leave as well?

Does your disdain only apply when you can argue the notion that someone does not belong?

Those that chose to make their home here, (or whose parents did), are less valid commentators on the state of the nation?

So what of those who came here escaping the death camps?

Are their critical views on modern Britain equally unwelcome?

Should they 'go home'?????

It's different for those born here, they had no say in the matter, but for those who came here willingly then slag off our country, those are the ones that I say sod off back to your homeland.

Boozeburglar
31-Dec-09, 08:09
Well thanks for clearing that up.. So an immigrant who has lived here seventy years, for example, (who 'chose' to come here instead of waiting to go to the gas chambers), best shut their mouth while their grandchildren can say what they want? Seems fair. But we need to enforce this hierarchy. The ID card system would probably be the best way to do this, as well as some visible outer sign. A mark to indicate your origin, perhaps something sewn onto your clothes or a badge? Then we know who can talk and who can not.

Tubthumper
31-Dec-09, 11:06
Don't start all that Nazi garbage either.
Jox has a point: For those who are legitimately in any country, it would seem sensible to play the game by the rules set by the governing bodies. If you are not keen on sticking to those rules, don't go there, or go somewhere more to your liking. If you wish to see the rules changed, do it by conventional, legal and where possible democratic means.
However, it can't be easy to knuckle down when the leadership of said country either don't pay attention, don't care, suppress dissent with violence, are corrupt or totally incompetent.
Which of the above might apply to the (a) China (b) the UK?

Bazeye
31-Dec-09, 15:31
Lets just say, for instance I got a job in, say, China for instance. I moved there, got a Chinese passport and lived the rest of my life there. Would I become Chinese? Id be British with a Chinese passport same as the drug smuggler was a Pakistani with a British passport. It was also very heart warming to hear how our Government tried to stop his execution while at the same time doing absolutely zilch for the white middle class,born and bred in Britain couple who were kidnapped by Somali pirates months ago.

Boozeburglar
31-Dec-09, 22:13
for the white middle class

It is clear from your use of the word 'white' where your sympathies lie.

joxville
31-Dec-09, 22:46
Well thanks for clearing that up.. So an immigrant who has lived here seventy years, for example, (who 'chose' to come here instead of waiting to go to the gas chambers), best shut their mouth while their grandchildren can say what they want? Seems fair. But we need to enforce this hierarchy. The ID card system would probably be the best way to do this, as well as some visible outer sign. A mark to indicate your origin, perhaps something sewn onto your clothes or a badge? Then we know who can talk and who can not.

Tell you what, why don't you go to Saudi and tell them you don't like the way they live, maybe do as your name suggests, see how understanding the locals there are. Why should I sit back and say nothing while people run my country down?

I know I can be an erse at times, but when I read your posts it's like looking in the mirror. ;)

Vistravi
31-Dec-09, 22:55
I have to agree with Metal.

Munt is a word I have known all my life and heard used all around me by others meaning to cry physically or moan about something.

That has always been whinge or whinging to me.

But then i do refer to it as whinging when i talk to my siblings and they're moaning about something. I'm also quite bad for saying aye instead of yes everywhere. Not really supposed to use slang of any sort at work and often hear myself saying to a child aye? instead of yes? It's a hard habit to kick. At least with my own children i won't have to stop myself as they'll soon suss out what i mean as the wee monkey is hearing me use it alot when i talk to my colegues, my partner, my family and friends.

Boozeburglar
31-Dec-09, 22:58
Tell you what, why don't you go to Saudi and tell them you don't like the way they live, maybe do as your name suggests, see how understanding the locals there are. Why should I sit back and say nothing while people run my country down?

I know I can be an erse at times, but when I read your posts it's like looking in the mirror. ;)

Maybe you have a monitor with a shiny surface.

Try different lighting.

Happy New Year!

Oh, and by the way, what would that prove? Don't you consider we are a more free society than Saudi? Don't you consider that a good thing? I do.

:)

Bazeye
01-Jan-10, 13:27
It is clear from your use of the word 'white' where your sympathies lie.

And our Governments.

northener
01-Jan-10, 14:16
How does anyone know that 'nothing is being done' about the kidnapped couple?

Is it because it's not knocking X Factor off the front page of the tabloids?

Jeez.....

crayola
01-Jan-10, 15:06
Lets just say, for instance I got a job in, say, China for instance. I moved there, got a Chinese passport and lived the rest of my life there.
Great idea!

Will you be my undercover agent when my coven invades?

Bazeye
01-Jan-10, 16:49
How does anyone know that 'nothing is being done' about the kidnapped couple?

Is it because it's not knocking X Factor off the front page of the tabloids?

Jeez.....

What was it on the BBC news, about 7 minutes airtime given to one drug dealer and 3 minutes to 3 more British troops returning home in coffins. We are slowly but surely being brainwashed by the media. Well, the people who believe everything theyre told are.

Bazeye
01-Jan-10, 17:06
'Ransom deal blocked' for Somali hostages Paul and Rachel Chandler

£100,000 deal with Somali pirates falls through as UK government says it will not allow payments to hostage-takers


Buzz up! (http://uk.buzz.yahoo.com/buzz?publisherurn=the_guardian665&targetUrl=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/06/paul-rachel-chandler-ransom-pirates&summary=%C2%A3100%2C000+deal+with+Somali+pirates+f alls+through+as+UK+government+says+it+will+not+all ow+payments+to+hostage-takers&headline='Ransom deal blocked' for Somali hostages Paul and Rachel Chandler |World news |The Observer)
Digg it (http://digg.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fworld %2F2009%2Fdec%2F06%2Fpaul-rachel-chandler-ransom-pirates&title=%27Ransom+deal+blocked%27+for+Somali+hostage s+Paul+and+Rachel+Chandler)


Mark Townsend (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/marktownsend) and Rajeev Syal (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/rajeev-syal)
The Observer (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/), Sunday 6 December 2009
Article history (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/06/paul-rachel-chandler-ransom-pirates#history-byline)
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2009/10/28/1256760509419/Paul-and-Rachel-Chandler-001.jpg Paul and Rachel Chandler: kidnapped on 23 October. Photograph: AP


A British couple kidnapped by Somali pirates six weeks ago were on the verge of being freed for a £100,000 ransom when the government blocked the deal, the Observer can reveal.
The money to release Paul and Rachel Chandler, taken hostage from their yacht on 23 October, had been agreed by a British negotiator two weeks ago. Foreign Office officials rejected the breakthrough, saying that they would not allow payments to hostage-takers.
The disclosure will increase the anguish for relatives of the Chandlers, from Tunbridge Wells, Kent, after concern that Britain's policy of not talking to kidnappers will endanger their lives.
Nick Davis, who negotiated the deal, yesterday accused the Foreign Office of playing "stupid games" after revealing how the Chandlers' captors had agreed to an offer that would have released the couple at a fraction of the £4.3m ransom previously demanded.
Davis, chairman of the industry anti-piracy organisation, the Merchant Maritime Warfare Centre (MMWC), accused the government of pursuing a flawed diplomatic strategy that could imperil the couple. The centre was set up last year to educate the shipping trade in anti-piracy measures and is funded by industry groups and insurers.
Davis said: "We could have had the Chandlers out weeks ago. The money was available, the pirates were keen to let them go, it was just a case of pushing the button. It was all ready to go. The pirates don't want to keep the Chandlers any longer. It's not good for them either.

northener
02-Jan-10, 00:19
What was it on the BBC news, about 7 minutes airtime given to one drug dealer and 3 minutes to 3 more British troops returning home in coffins. We are slowly but surely being brainwashed by the media. Well, the people who believe everything theyre told are.

Because it isn't on the media broadcasts doesn't mean that nothing is happening.

Boozeburglar
02-Jan-10, 00:42
We all know that if you start paying kidnappers openly you will encourage more.

Bazeye
02-Jan-10, 14:28
We all know that if you start paying kidnappers openly you will encourage more.

And we all know that if the RN blew them out of the water it wouldnt happen with such regularity and would make any would be pirate think twice.

Bazeye
02-Jan-10, 14:31
Because it isn't on the media broadcasts doesn't mean that nothing is happening.

And thats the trouble with the media. They tell us things they want you to believe but dont tell us things that we should know.

northener
02-Jan-10, 15:14
And thats the trouble with the media. They tell us things they want you to believe but dont tell us things that we should know.

Nope, the media will tell you what will get the most attention. If they cannot attract enough attention to their business from their target audience, they cannot survive. The result is that many major news items will be made redundant in favour of items that will attract more attention. It's only when you get into the more serious investigative journalism (mainly carried out by the broadsheets in Newspaper Land) that some issues will be highlighted at all.

I don't agree with the notion that the media is somehow 'controlling' their output in some sort of giant nebulous conspiracy. I'd say that their control of news items is based on what is deemed the most newsworthy on the day. There's a lot of bloody good reporters out there doing an amazing job of covering crappy goings-on around the planet. But to give them all equal airtime would be downright impossible.

Regarding using the RN to blow the pirates away, I'd be all for it. Unfortunately, we seem to be more bothered about toeing the 'International Waters' line as opposed to nailing these clowns...and they know it.

Set up a couple of commercial ships as 'Q' ships and nail the s as soon as they get in range. They'll soon get pished off when their chums don't come home any more. BTW, I believe the French Navy are having some measure of progress in this part of the world.

Boozeburglar
02-Jan-10, 17:55
I think the tabloids run between reporting and making the news. Not very healthy, but then most people realise it.

The pirates are generally benign; if we start going heavy on them I fear they will begin that way in future operations.

Bazeye
02-Jan-10, 18:26
I think the tabloids run between reporting and making the news. Not very healthy, but then most people realise it.

The pirates are generally benign; if we start going heavy on them I fear they will begin that way in future operations.

Know where youre coming from but imo they wont begin that way in future operations if they havent got any boats left to continue it in.
I also believe , from your first sentence, that most people do realise whats being fed to them by the media, but dont give it any further thought, theyll have a moan and a whinge, then probably order a pizza and settle down t X Factor and forget about all their woes. Apathy rules, it seems nowadays.

bekisman
02-Jan-10, 18:34
These 'prates' do kill.
Fight fire with fire, but as usual, convention dictates that a merchant ship cannot carry arms, so if you want easy money get a fast boat, look for a ship, take it over, demand a ransom, get ransom and go look for another ship etc.. what a load of twaddle, blast the gits out of the water; hundreds of miles from land, what they gonna do? But the 'civilised' world as it is, laws will not be enacted to allow lethal protection, so it will continue ad infinitum , please oh please, lets have some direction!



4 June 2007 Somali pirates, who have been holding a Taiwanese fishing vessel since the middle of last month, have reportedly killed one member of the crew.

March 30 2009 The fisherman named Sahl Juma`an al-Sani (45) has been killed few days ago in the Somali territorial waters as Somali pirates were trying to seize the boat. Al-Sani has been shot in his shoulder and subsequently died.

25th Sep 2009 MOGADISHU: Somali pirates boarded a Panama-flagged ship heading for Mogadishu on Thursday and killed its Syrian captain after he refused to turn the vessel away from the port, officials said.

13 Dec 2008 Three crew members from the Greek chemical tanker MT Action have been killed by Somali pirates

10 May 2009 ... Somali pirates shot dead an Indian sailor and injured his compatriot on board a ship hijacked in January this year.

20 Dec 2008 A group of men believed to be Somali pirates have exchanged fire with fishermen on their fishing trawler off the coast of Somali and in this crossfire a man who was identified as a Kenyan citizen travelling with attacked fishermen has died.

Boozeburglar
02-Jan-10, 18:34
Know where youre coming from but imo they wont begin that way in future operations if they havent got any boats left to continue it in.
I also believe , from your first sentence, that most people do realise whats being fed to them by the media, but dont give it any further thought, theyll have a moan and a whinge, then probably order a pizza and settle down t X Factor and forget about all their woes. Apathy rules, it seems nowadays.


Perhaps that is the case, but I don't watch TV as a rule, and I don't read the tabloids unless I am in a transport cafe. My opinions are formed in the ether.

Boozeburglar
02-Jan-10, 18:41
These 'prates' do kill.


Every death is tragic, but they generally don't kill.

If the answer is to shoot them on sight, then perhaps we need to have a much greater presence in the waters there. Once you start down that road you need to do it with conviction.

If it is left to those with money interest, then all that will happen is armed escorts for commercial shipping and no protection for anyone else, but of course they can avoid the waters to a large extent.