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JAWS
27-Apr-06, 04:04
How much longer can the Government get away with the pretence that it has Immigration Problems under control before there is a backlash from the public.

It is bad enough that Illegal Immigrants are allowed to come and go almost at will. Those who are caught and are found to have no excuse to be here are rarely removed.

It now comes to light, that the Government have allowed over one thousand Convicted Criminals who's sentence included a deportation order to be enforced at the end of their sentence have been allowed to wander off at the end of their sentence and simply disappear.
Many are violent and very dangerous including murderers, rapists and other sexual offences, paedophiles, drug importers, drug dealers, burglars and people who have committed manslaughter, serious assaults and false imprisonment.

This has been occurring, it would appear, for at least the last seven years. The Governments response is a feeble, "We are going to try and find them!"
Well, I really am glad about that. Who's going to bet against the suggestion that they never find the majority of them and they just drag their feet until the fuss has died down and they can go back to turning their backs on the problem and pretending, once again, that it doesn't exist?

fred
27-Apr-06, 09:16
It now comes to light, that the Government have allowed over one thousand Convicted Criminals who's sentence included a deportation order to be enforced at the end of their sentence have been allowed to wander off at the end of their sentence and simply disappear.
Many are violent and very dangerous including murderers, rapists and other sexual offences, paedophiles, drug importers, drug dealers, burglars and people who have committed manslaughter, serious assaults and false imprisonment.


There is a lot of concern that these immigrants are putting British criminals out of work but myself I think they are doing the sort of crimes our criminals just don't want to do anymore and are prepared to do them for more hours for less money.

Sometimes I think our government is positively encouraging crime. It allows them to introduce lots of draconian new laws which infringe on everyones civil liberties and removes everyones freedom. Lets them form what looks suspiciously like the UK branch of the FBI. Allows them to introduce compulsory Identity Cards which they said in their manifesto would be voluntary and stop the House of Lords from blocking them without everyone making a fuss.

Maybe a better solution to the crime problem would have been to just give the police the money and resources they needed to do the job but that wouldn't mean Britain edging one step at a time closer to a police state with the full approval of a scared population.

badger
27-Apr-06, 10:35
One thing puzzled me about this story (well, lots really but one in particular) - if these criminals are marked for deportation after they have served their sentences why don't they cut out a step and just deport them straightaway? Save a lot of our money keeping and feeding them in prison as well as all the admin. and might even act as a deterrent if a certain sector of the immigrant population knew that the punishment for crime was deportation.

I don't know how they decide which criminals are to be deported but presumably there are criteria for this so it shouldn't be difficult. Seems simply silly to keep them in prison at vast expense, not to say adding to huge problem of overcrowding, if they're going to deport them at the end of it. Or am I missing something?

fred
27-Apr-06, 11:26
I don't know how they decide which criminals are to be deported but presumably there are criteria for this so it shouldn't be difficult. Seems simply silly to keep them in prison at vast expense, not to say adding to huge problem of overcrowding, if they're going to deport them at the end of it. Or am I missing something?

Sounds to me like that would mean having different laws for different people, I don't think that would be a road I'd want us to go down.

_Ju_
27-Apr-06, 16:16
One thing puzzled me about this story (well, lots really but one in particular) - if these criminals are marked for deportation after they have served their sentences why don't they cut out a step and just deport them straightaway? Save a lot of our money keeping and feeding them in prison as well as all the admin. and might even act as a deterrent if a certain sector of the immigrant population knew that the punishment for crime was deportation.




The family of an abused child or murder victim will not appreciate the miserly sentences to be commuted to deportation so that they can live their lives free back home. Or do you think that removal from British soil is dire, cruel and unusual punishment?

scotsboy
27-Apr-06, 17:01
How come these illegal immigrant that are released are dangerous - i thought they would have just been rehabilitated. Are they any more dangerous than "our" ones that are routinely released into society to re-offend. It seems to me this is just more Xenophobia.

If they need to be deported, deport them.

badger
27-Apr-06, 18:47
Sounds to me like that would mean having different laws for different people, I don't think that would be a road I'd want us to go down.

Surely we do though? After all most people don't get deported on release. All I'm saying is, if they're going to be deported anyway why not do it straightaway.

badger
27-Apr-06, 18:53
The family of an abused child or murder victim will not appreciate the miserly sentences to be commuted to deportation so that they can live their lives free back home. Or do you think that removal from British soil is dire, cruel and unusual punishment?

I think for many deportation would be worse than a spell in one of our prisons. It's not as though they're going to be rehabilitated and these days, apart from loss of freedom and possible abuse from other prisoners, a "miserly sentence" is hardly sufficient punishment from the point of view of the victim's family. How often do we hear families protest at short sentences or early release?

If someone really wants to live in this country, the least they can do is not commit violent crimes. Presumably they had good reason to come here so returning to their homes might be a worse option than prison. It would also reduce the risk of re-offending which seems all too common now. I'm not suggesting it for anyone other than those who will be deported anyway.

fred
27-Apr-06, 19:24
Surely we do though? After all most people don't get deported on release. All I'm saying is, if they're going to be deported anyway why not do it straightaway.

No, we have one law for all. If you rob a bank then the penalty is prison, if you enter the country illegaly or break the conditions of entry then the penalty is deportation, as who you are.

Suppose a British person robbed a bank and was found guilty but the Group4 driver was new and dropped him off at Heathrow instead of the Scrubs by mistake and he hops on a plane to the Ukrain? Should we leave him there or should he be extradited and put in prison? How about the British criminals sunning themselves on the beach in Spain or South America? Is that punishment enough?

badger
27-Apr-06, 19:33
No, we have one law for all. If you rob a bank then the penalty is prison, if you enter the country illegaly or break the conditions of entry then the penalty is deportation, as who you are.

Suppose a British person robbed a bank and was found guilty but the Group4 driver was new and dropped him off at Heathrow instead of the Scrubs by mistake and he hops on a plane to the Ukrain? Should we leave him there or should he be extradited and put in prison? How about the British criminals sunning themselves on the beach in Spain or South America? Is that punishment enough?

Fred - I don't think you're hearing me! I'm talking about immigrants who are supposed to be deported on release from prison. Until all this blew up I had no idea this happened but that's what all this fuss is about - a large number of foreign criminals who due to administrative bungling were released back into the community at the end of their sentences instead of being deported. I'm not talking about British criminals or indeed immigrant criminals who are entitled to remain in the country. I'm talking about the ones whose sentence was that they be deported when they had served their time (see Jaws' opening post). That's all.

scotsboy
27-Apr-06, 19:51
There are bigger criminals who will cause you more damage that will never do time.

fred
27-Apr-06, 22:57
Fred - I don't think you're hearing me! I'm talking about immigrants who are supposed to be deported on release from prison. Until all this blew up I had no idea this happened but that's what all this fuss is about - a large number of foreign criminals who due to administrative bungling were released back into the community at the end of their sentences instead of being deported. I'm not talking about British criminals or indeed immigrant criminals who are entitled to remain in the country. I'm talking about the ones whose sentence was that they be deported when they had served their time (see Jaws' opening post). That's all.

No, they arn't sentenced to be deported, there is no legal sentence of deportation. It may be that someone is deported as a result of committing the crime, if the crime was connected with terrorism, if it was a serious crime committed by someone who was not a national or within five years of becoming a national then these are reasons why a person can be deported but the deportation is not a punishment for the crime, it is completely seperate from the sentencing for the crime.

When it comes to the sentencing for the crime everyone must be treated equally, their nationality can't influence the judge when he decides on the sentence, British or foreign they must all be treated the same.

mysophales
28-Apr-06, 10:10
There are bigger criminals who will cause you more damage that will never do time.


Your spot on there, they are called the government.

JAWS
28-Apr-06, 11:11
To clarify, the criminals concerned have all been tried, convicted, sentenced and recommended for deportation as soon as they have served their sentence.
It matters not if they are illegal immigrants or not, they are people who are not British Citizens or Citizens of an EU Country.

What makes matters worse is the blatant evasions and lies being told in order to move the blame from the politicians concerned.
The situation is not one which has come out of the blue, it is one which the Home Office and several Home Secretaries have been well aware of for some time.

The previous Inspector of Prisons reported the problem to the Home Secretary as far back as 2001 as a matter needing urgent attention. He made the very sensible suggestion that all the requisite enquiries and paperwork should be completed whilst the criminal was still in custody rather than incur the additional problems and expense of releasing them into the Community and then having to find them in order for that to be done.

Those who have been convicted of murder will have received the mandatory life sentence and on release will be "On License form Prison", those convicted of crimes involving sex or paedophilia should be on the various Offenders Registers. Both those categories alone mean the appropriate authorities should be aware of their whereabouts which they obviously are not.

In the period since the current Home Secretary admits he has been aware of the problem in excess of 200 more have been allowed to disappear completely.

The details of some of them are so sketchy that they seem not to appear on the Police National Computer as having been convicted of a crime.

What makes matters more disgraceful was the suggestion made on the day this was dragged out of the Government that it was a wonderful example of how well the Public Accounts Committee and the Parliamentary Committee systems were working.

Should I ever have to appear in Court I shall be using the defence that I have appeared there as proof that the Police and the Justice System is working effectively so nothing further needs to be done with me and I should be allowed to go free.

Is anybody else willing to try that as a defence or do you suspect that the court might not see the joke?

Were things working as they should be the convicts concerned should have been taken straight from prison on their release and put on the first plane back to their country of origin.

How many other countries would be so pathetically lax in their handling of such people?

_Ju_
28-Apr-06, 11:36
I think for many deportation would be worse than a spell in one of our prisons. It's not as though they're going to be rehabilitated and these days, apart from loss of freedom and possible abuse from other prisoners, a "miserly sentence" is hardly sufficient punishment from the point of view of the victim's family. How often do we hear families protest at short sentences or early release?

If someone really wants to live in this country, the least they can do is not commit violent crimes. Presumably they had good reason to come here so returning to their homes might be a worse option than prison. It would also reduce the risk of re-offending which seems all too common now. I'm not suggesting it for anyone other than those who will be deported anyway.


Your take is "interesting", for want of a stronger term. Returning home to their families, in a country where they speak their own language, and with the option of living their lives free there, or even in another country as immigrants would be a punishment worse than imprisonment in the UK? Ok...if you say so (but I think you hold the standard of life in the UK very, very high above the mere rest of the world).

Still,you did not adress the basic question: however short, inadequate and lenient, are the family members of victims not entitled to AT LEAST that punishment before deportation? I think that letting them get on with their lives, albeit out of the country, is re-victimizing the families and victims of crime.

badger
28-Apr-06, 12:01
Your take is "interesting", for want of a stronger term. Returning home to their families, in a country where they speak their own language, and with the option of living their lives free there, or even in another country as immigrants would be a punishment worse than imprisonment in the UK? Ok...if you say so (but I think you hold the standard of life in the UK very, very high above the mere rest of the world).

Still,you did not adress the basic question: however short, inadequate and lenient, are the family members of victims not entitled to AT LEAST that punishment before deportation? I think that letting them get on with their lives, albeit out of the country, is re-victimizing the families and victims of crime.

I am assuming, and I could be wrong, that the people we are talking about had very good reason for leaving their own country and do not want to return there so forced return would be punishment. They could be returning to persecution or poverty but I think it's highly unlikely they will be welcomed back with open arms to a comfortable life. If that were the case, why did they come here in the first place?

If I were a victim, or relative, I would infinitely prefer that the criminal be safely out of the country, hopefully never to be seen again - although with our lax immigration procedures I'm afraid that's not a certainty. One complaint heard often from families is that someone who has hurt them has been released back into their own community and they have to risk meeting them.

badger
28-Apr-06, 12:16
To clarify, the criminals concerned have all been tried, convicted, sentenced and recommended for deportation as soon as they have served their sentence.
It matters not if they are illegal immigrants or not, they are people who are not British Citizens or Citizens of an EU Country.

Exactly - just what I was trying, but obviously failed, to say.

scotsboy
28-Apr-06, 12:21
I "thought" that they had not even been considered for deportation, and that the mechanism for doing so was not established.

JAWS
28-Apr-06, 13:56
I "thought" that they had not even been considered for deportation, and that the mechanism for doing so was not established.
That is the whole problem. The reason for them not having been considered for deportation is that, despite the Government having been warned at least as early as 2001 that the situation was spiralling out of control, they have done exactly nothing.
This is just another example of their idea of "Joined up Government", the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing and do not even know that they are attached to the same body in the Home Office.

Everybody has assumed it was somebody else's responsibility and as a result of that nobody has taken any action.
All the parts are there but have been left scattered all over the place.

The Home Office, who have responsibility for all the different parts have never bothered to create a workable system to solve the problem.
They have simply kept quiet and taken no action in the hope that nobody would notice that the situation even existed.

Now they have been cornered and forced to admit the debacle exists and it has since become obvious they were trying to hide it they are trying to wriggle out of the situation by pretending it could not be helped.

Can anybody believe that if one of us went to Burma or Brazil and were recommended for deportation after serving a prison term that we would be allowed to walk out of prison and simply wander off?
I rather suspect that once the sentence was served we would not even to be able to enjoy the view on the way to the airport to catch our free flight back to Britain.

The Government are trying to wriggle out of their responsibility by pretending that nothing could be done to prevent the situation.
How pathetic can they get? They even make Basil Fawlty look competent by comparison.

fred
28-Apr-06, 20:23
I am assuming, and I could be wrong, that the people we are talking about had very good reason for leaving their own country and do not want to return there so forced return would be punishment. They could be returning to persecution or poverty but I think it's highly unlikely they will be welcomed back with open arms to a comfortable life. If that were the case, why did they come here in the first place?


If they were returning to persecution we wouldn't be able to deport them anyway, that would contravene the European Convention on Human Rights.

If they were in the country illegally then they could be deported anyway, even if they were found not guilty of the crime.

obiron
28-Apr-06, 20:55
[quote=fred]If they were returning to persecution we wouldn't be able to deport them anyway, that would contravene the European Convention on Human Rights.

Hit the nail there fred human rights.

JAWS
28-Apr-06, 21:42
[quote=fred]If they were returning to persecution we wouldn't be able to deport them anyway, that would contravene the European Convention on Human Rights.

Hit the nail there fred human rights.
I don't recall seeing any reports or even suggestions that any of them were to be returned to countries where their human rights would be violated.

The problem is that they all were allowed to wander off without anybody making the least effort even to give consideration to what should happen to them.
What is even more ridiculous is that nobody knows how many more there are in the prison system. The Government have admitted that there may be several hundred aliens in prison who have simply said they are British. In other words, they have no idea who is locked up in our prisons.

I wonder if that's why nobody has found Bin Laden yet? He's probably hiding in Wormwood Scrubs!

fred
28-Apr-06, 22:23
I don't recall seeing any reports or even suggestions that any of them were to be returned to countries where their human rights would be volated.

Strange, I could have sworn that was what badger suggested.



I wonder if that's why nobody has found Bin Laden yet? He's probably hiding in Wormwood Scrubs!

On September 11th 2001 he was in an American military hospital in Pakistan, he's spent quite a bit of time in American military hospitals, he isn't a well man, needs regular dialisis.

Don't you think if they were trying to catch him they'd have caught him by now? Then they'd just have to invent another bogey man for you to hide under your bed from. Wonder if he's going to release another Republican campaign video for the November elections like he did for the Presidential elections.

_Ju_
29-Apr-06, 09:29
I am assuming, and I could be wrong, that the people we are talking about had very good reason for leaving their own country and do not want to return there so forced return would be punishment. They could be returning to persecution or poverty but I think it's highly unlikely they will be welcomed back with open arms to a comfortable life. If that were the case, why did they come here in the first place?

.

Immigrant is not illegal immigrant. Immigrant is not assylum seeker. Immigrant is just immigrant, a person who left their country in most cases for better pay work . The "good reason" you are implying is unsustainable lives in countries of origin. Assuming that most immigrants lived in mud huts under totalitarian regimes, with no running water, electricity and have to run after their food to catch it is just plain ignorance.
The parents of an abused child will tell you that a jail sentence will not pay for what happened to their child, but that no punishment at all ( which is what I consider sending the criminal home would be) is infinately worse. If deportation is part of the sentence, by all means that should and must be enforced. The process to work must start while serving sentence to make sure they leave the prison to board an aeroplane.

JAWS
30-Apr-06, 00:23
Strange, I could have sworn that was what badger suggested.
Sorry fred, I realise that it was not you making that suggestion, I should have been more careful with the quotes. I intended to add to what you said concerning them not being returned to persecution.
Both you and I know that it would not happen under these circumstances.

Not all immigrants convicted of crimes, even serious ones, are recommended for deportation. I would suspect that the ones under discussion here have been recommended for deportation for specific reasons.
Obviously those who are here purely for criminal purposes such as people trafficking, drug smuggling and dealing and other cross border offences, persistent offenders who are obviously going to continue committing crime, those such as sexual offenders and paedophiles who pose a specific danger and who, by the nature of their offences, are likely to re-offend.

From some of the offences committed I would suspect that some of those concerned are here simply as the British end of International Gang structures especially when it comes to drug trafficking offences and offences involving false imprisonment, kidnap and similar offences involving people and that if it were not for them carrying out those offences they would not be here in the first place. They are, in fact, simply here as the business representative of their illegal organisation liasing with their counterparts in this Country.

weezer 316
01-May-06, 17:18
At present, the immigration into this country is awful. The UN says asylum seekers should be given asylum in the nearest safe country. Now, since there are at least a dozen countries between us and the nearest warzone (chechnya i think is the closest) we really should have no asylum seekerws what so ever!

Immigrants are another matter entirely. How do you stop them? Go ask the american government how it tries to stop all the mexicans coming into its country. They cant. And they have much larger resources that we do. and to deport everyone would be extremely costly. So, it looks like you will just have to live with it.

_Ju_
01-May-06, 18:39
Immigrants are another matter entirely. How do you stop them? Go ask the american government how it tries to stop all the mexicans coming into its country. They cant. And they have much larger resources that we do. and to deport everyone would be extremely costly. So, it looks like you will just have to live with it.
LOL! www.wikipedia.org might help to distinguish between immigrant, illegal immigrant and assylum seeker.

The people arrested were not illegal immigrants, but immigrants that commited a crime serious enough for themto be considered for deportation.