View Full Version : Causewaymire Turbines
I would like to point out that the energy figures quoted are not correct .The energy produced by the turbines will not even cover the energy used in their construction ,transport and installation .
What you must remember when planning is ask for is why put them HERE ( it must surely be the best site ) well No it's not the best site .
All the best sites for wind turbines are where the MOD fly their jets .
Well you would think it's the second best ,well No again it's the easiest for the grid connection .
As Grid connection can cost a £1000.a metre ,so the farther you are away the longer it takes to make a PROFIT .
The only word that must be remembered when you thing for the wind turbines that are carpet bombing Caithness is P.R.O.F.I.T. .It has nothing to do with the environment ,it's just the MONEY.
So the next time you see the( Carpet baggers) Sorry! Wind Turbines Companies asking to put up turbines .
Think ! will these Company Directors have to live with their landscape and views destroyed for the next 25 years by the huge turbines they propose .
I think not they will be laying back on some sunny far away beach with the profit they make ,Funny there are no turbines farms in the Paradice
Anonymous
06-Feb-04, 11:26
none of these wind turbine arguments ever seem to have any real substance, on either side, its all just blah blah blah. I wish people would just come out and say what they really mean. You either like the look of them and what they do, or you dont, trying to convince us of any other argument for or against is just blah. It would seem that none of us is an expert anyway, so all we really have is our own opinion.
Personally I think they look great and would love to have a dozen or so outside my house, they cannot be as loud as all the fans I have cooling my PC so noise would not be a problem (on a still day you can hear them outside :roll: ). As for birds, oooooo, see if guns were legal, arrrgghhhh why dont scorries have a lie in now and again???? And those wee brown birdies, change the record, tweet tweet tweet.... tweet tweet tweet....
BTW, who does own all those jets that keep flying over wick? And what is that one all about that just pretends to land then takes off again?
I suppose chester would be against a heat and power system right on our doorstep? providing energy to us and not the grid?
define paradise?
Again, personally, I feel that if this whole "wind-turbine-phase" is all about profit then brilliant, all I've heard over the last wee while is how impossible it is to make any money from them, profitable and eco-friendly, how good can it get???
Also, if you have nothing better to do for the next 25 years than look out of your window, I suggest you get help, window licking is a problem that has a solution.... (joke)
I like em. I think they look nice and are a step towards producing cleaner energy. They may not produce huge amounts of energy but atleast it's a start. I think the key word is - P.R.O.G.R.E.S.S!.
As an Environmental Engineer I feel I have sufficient knowledge to make such statements concerning wind turbines.
Wind turbines that seem to make money through public handouts, under the pretence that it is the Environment that is to benefit, is the rubbish. It would make more sense to improve the housing (and YES I am in favour of the Biomass Heating System) because it was a company that I was employed by that suggested it to Ms Marshall, along with a recycling project that would make Wick a leader in both fields.
To show people how far the research in renewables has progressed, the company have got a small turbine no bigger than a old type satililte dish that produces 2kwph. This is not to power the electrics in the home but to heat the element in the hot water boiler for your heating and hot water (the biggest domestic bills are for heating and hot water).
This turbine could be used on every lampost (which is already there and wired to the substation). Think, all that power with NO need for Turbine Farms. The small turbine on your roof would provide free energy to you, not the Electricity Company.
You see, not all Turbine Farms haters are silly mis-informed mouth pieces, some of us actually have an idea about what we are commenting on.
George Brims
06-Feb-04, 21:12
Here's another aspect of the debate.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/TechTV/windmills_kill_birds_techtv_040206.html
What has been the response of the RSPB, Nature Conservancy etc to these things being planted in the North?
By the way Niall, the planes that land and then take off are probably military ones making themselves familar with the runway layout etc in case they have to go there in an emergency. I recall a lot of F-4 Phantoms from RAF Kinloss doing that many years ago, and one of them hit too hard and damaged the undercarriage.
Personally I think they look great and would love to have a dozen or so outside my house...
Hmmm, we'll see what we can do there ;)
I think the reason folk are so concerned about the Turbine proliferation is that the science of the benefits they profide is clouded by money. The money the landowners obviously get from allowing these things to be erected on their land is a start.
The amount of electricity generated by them is another point of confusion. If they are efficient in all wind strengths then fine, but they do not start to generate until the wind speed reaches a certain level.
I do not claim to be an expert in the field but there are better locations for them and which has less of a blight on the landscape. There is an offshore windfarm being built off the coast of East Anglia. They are a couple of miles out to sea and it seems to be no harder to build them out there than in your back garden.
To dismiss members views in such an simplistic way is unfair - it is a serious topic and not one that should be treated in such a manner. Just go and read some of the links I posted in the previous thread on this topic (http://www.caithness.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1466).
Anonymous
07-Feb-04, 12:01
Here we go, mabee I should add a button to the forum, "Quote Niall", to save you all time. :roll:
What does an Environmental Engineer actually do? Serious question, I've never heard of that before.
George, yes I know, I was trying to point that out, military jets fly over here all the time,
All the best sites for wind turbines are where the MOD fly their jets
I have to agree with Donnie, that these turbines are a step in the right direction. Without development how can we find out what the full potential of the wind is?
Think about Solar Panels, over the last decade, huge leaps have been made in the efficency of the cells, how could this have been achieved without people supporting them.
My problem with the whole anti-wind-turbine movement, is not the fact that people are anti-turbines, but the fact that they wont just come out and say exactly what they dont like about them, its going to spoil their view, I'd be quite happy to accept that. if I was someone who held the view from my window (or some other spot) in such high regard, I'd probably feel the same way. But as I said, I think they look great and would not mind having them dominate the view from my window.
So, please stop telling me that they kill birds, have supersonic debris flying all over the place, cause depression due to low frequency noise, etc etc. I just dont believe that any of these things are the real reason. I also feel that the anti-movement think that others will not take their "spoils my view" argument very seriously, but was that not the ONLY reason that the development at borrowston was halted? Spoiling a coastal view?
I'm not trying to suggest that any of these other reasons do not hold water, but when people deny the real reason they object it makes the rest of their argument seem suspect. Personally, I would have judged on the side of the objectors in that case had they just told me they were not looing forward to having their lovely view obstructed by a flock of 200ft high wind turbines. A position that hundreds of others in the county would probably support.
Its like listening to the labour party, the arguments are spinning faster than the turbines they are directed against. The truth has more power than any lie or half truth. Its much easier to sway the opinion of many when you present them with a simple undeniable truth, rather than a lot of complex, jargon ridden spin, laced with "expert" opinion and "scientific" argument. How could anyone stand against a whole community that says "look, we just dont like them and we dont want them here"?
All the spin does is muddy the waters and people who dont really have an opinion find themselves spouting some rubbish they read on a messageboard, without really understanding what it means. It would be a much happier place if everyone just understood that some people just really dont like them and dont want them on their door step, then people reading forums like this could go away with a truth in their head, "those folks dont want those wind turbines, so why should they be forced upon them?" Others however, like the look of them and would not mind having them nearby, so if you are anti-turbines and find yourself out numbered in your community because the majority like the idea, then sorry, but tough, majority rule, that is how things work in this country isnt it? Otherwise, we would have one of the independant MSPs as FM, no?
As for the mini-turbine idea, fantastic, I'd always thought that there must be some way of harnessing the wind on a smaller scale, perhaps with a few of them on the corners of your house, all running different parts of your house, one for heat and hot water, one for lights and a couple to run all your sockets, superb. But I dont see how anything like this will ever become a reality without the continued development of large turbines. With the changes in the taxation of the supply, it is now possible to turn a bit of profit, and any of these profit-making companies with half a brain will be pumping cash into research. Competition is now the name of the game, and competition breads research and better prices for us, without it, we'll be burning things until we have nothing left to burn.
So sure, some people will have their views spoiled against their will, but not forever, when a better system is developed, these huge turbines will be removed, probably more quickly than they were installed, and another, more generally supported installation will go in its place, perhaps one of these underground turbine systems I've seen or something that no one has even thought of yet. But without development, without competition and without the support of the people who really need this form of energy, we will be stuck with the same problem.
Now after all that, I have to say that I am glad there is an "anti" movement of some kind, because as we know, science unchecked is a very dangerous thing and it needs guidance from the people who are supposed to benefit. All the points brought out in these discussions should be seen by developers as problems they have to overcome in future research and development, you cant please all of the people all of the time, but you can always make changes to decrease the numbers of the disgruntled. So as I've said before, let the experts be quiet and lets hear the real reasons why people are for and against them.
Finally, if the RSPB manages to get a ban placed on wind farms, what will be next, cats? (joke)
Naill,
its no often I agree whole heartedly with you .....BUT on this issue I do, and well done for putting your point of view.
I too would like to see a definition of a "Environmental Engineer" I have not come across this phrase.....So Chester enlighten me, I was for a few years an "Environmental Care Officer" for my employers and my remit was to make as many "Green" issues work i.e energy savings of at least 5% per year ( that was the hard one) when computers kept appearing on desks with all the energy implacations that brought with it like the extra electricity being used and then the extra heat generated when these machines were switched on. I also had most fun educating the staff to any green issues such as recycling paper, cans, Green transport was another interesting idea......try prising the hands off the steering wheel of a car driver who only lived 500 yards from the office.
So if these turbines save us using the shrinking fossil fuels stocks I say well done.
Golach
Environmetal Enginner could be anything from a ditch digger to a landscape gardener ;)
I will pin my colours firmly on my sleeve, as my posts on this topic invariably counter the pro-turbine ones. I am for wind turbines, but in the right place.
As I have mentioned off shore is as good a place as any for these machines. The Danes seem to have sorted it out the right way and it is a mirror of one of their developments which is being built off the coast of Anglia.
Caithness is probably one of the last unspoilt places in the UK and it should remain so. I would no more wish a wind farm on your doorstep Niall than on anyone else's. Why should people have to endure any of its negative aspects purely for the "benefit" of one or two persons ( the landowners mainly).
Just because the county has a better aspect for harnessing its wind is no reason to plonk several dozens of these turbines down on what is without doubt some of the most beautiful countryside in the UK, if not Europe.
Smaller turbines on a local level could be acceptable and could even be more efficient as they would operate at lower wind speeds. Solar panels have taken off more and more lately, but they are more use on an individual house by house basis. Mind you they could cover Morven with a solar energy farm!
So, maybe encouraging owners to have their own wind generator in their own backyard for their own use by way of decent financial discounts might be the way forward?
I am sure one of the links to the other thread is for a community which is doing just what I think Niall hinted at, which is fighting the siting of a wind farm on the basis of we-don't-want-it-here, or NIMBYism, or even BANANA's (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone)
Sadly the individuals right to object to such developments has basically been removed by this government. The decision is now made by Prescott (spit) and no matter how much you lobby your local council it will have no effect. I'm not sure if this applies to Scotland so I will accept correction on this point.
At the end of the day, it has to be better for the future of the planet and for your grandkids and even further along the line.
We've made a pretty good mess of it so far, and the realisation that we can't go on plundering a finite resource as we have done is slowly sinking in. Sadly some nations can't quite grasp the concept of Kyoto, but I think that discussion is best left to another thread.
Do wind turbines kill birds?
The answer is: Yes, but how many and what species vary significantly from site to site. When many people think about wind turbines and birds, they envision birds colliding with monopoles or turbine blades. While direct collisions do occur turbines can also have unseen effects on bird populations where the turbines fragment bird habitat and interfere with migratory pathways.
All energy production comes at a cost. Carbon dioxide, sulfur dioxide, and nitrogen oxide emissions from fossil fuels are all significantly harmful to human health, wildlife, and the environment, as are oil spills. onshore wind farms and similar marine-based energy facilities, however, may also pose significant risks to wildlife, and they don’t guarantee that fossil-fuel plants will close.
In addition to the danger of birds colliding with turbines, other problems can arise, depending on the location and size of an wind energy site. For example, the Aviation Administration requires that onshore wind turbines have lights for pilot safety. We know very little about the effects of lighting at these altitudes on night migrating songbirds and other species, especially during adverse weather but preliminary research suggests that lights paired with dense fog or low clouds may disorient night migrating birds and some pelagic birds Migrating birds function on a limited energy supply, and it is well documented that birds pushed off course (in storms, for example) may never be able to recoup lost calories therefore, the alteration of migratory pathways may cause death in some birds of certain species.
Large wind farms may also displace birds by fragmenting habitat. This concern is greatest for those bird species that have been pushed to the brink of extinction by other human activities that limit their habitat resources, such as dense coastal development, human traffic on beaches, and coastal pollution. Likewise, construction could potentially force migratory birds to move resting or foraging activities to more marginal habitat and could interfere with the passage or feeding activities of nesting shorebirds. The nature of the risk depends on when and how birds use a particular habitat.
To show people how far the research in renewables has progressed, the company have got a small turbine no bigger than a old type satililte dish that produces 2kwph.
Would CHESTER mind telling us what the unit "kwph" stands for and what Environmental Enginners use it to quantify?
Anonymous
08-Feb-04, 11:19
I think he means kWh, kilowatt hour, see here (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci797759,00.html)
Do cars kill birds? yes
Do cats kill birds? yes
Do homing pideons use motorways to help navigate home? yes
Are birds blind? no
Do birds kill other things? yes
Are pilots blind? no, well mabee
Do all large structures require lights to point themselves out to aircraft? yes
Are wind farms in this country as big as storms? no
Is it only the building of wind farms that can upset the normal daily life of birds? lol
Have I heard it all before? yes
Did I believe it then? no
Do I believe it now? no
No, let me clarify, I'm not going to sit here and suggest that every bird has 20/20 vision but they're not as stupid as the twitchers would like us to believe in this instance. They've spent my entire life bumming up how fantastic and superpowered birds are. So to tell me now that this was all a lie does nothing for the argument. We (humans) are life, and as such we ARE going to consume everything that we can and spread oursleves onto every bit of land that we can force to support us. I mean, we're looking at consuming the Moon and Mars over the next hundred years or so. How strong do you think the "bird" argument will be in another 100 years time if we continue on our present path? The "bird" argument will be how you convince your sweetheart to come for a meal with you, "they serve real birds from earth with tatties from the Moon and Celery from Mars all finished off with a soylent green garnish". Unless of course, we can kurb our consumation of everything we can see or get to.
Fayray, I never realised you had such encyclopedic knowledge of birds, or was that a cut'n'paste (http://safewind.info/articles/answers.htm) job? :roll:
Niall,
Thanks for your reply.
However, I hope he doesn't mean kilowatt-hours, or kilowatts per hour! Neither is correct. A correct unit would be kilowatts. Another would be "megajoules per year", or perhaps "electron-volts per millisecond", as long as the dimensions are "energy divided by time". Perhaps I was being too subtle, but I was just trying to point out that an engineer should be able to get the basics right when being authoritative!
As MadPict said:
Environmetal Enginner could be anything from a ditch digger to a landscape gardener ;)
Enginner??
Ooops, a slip in my normally good spell chequer - meant Engineer. That still looks odd. Funny how everyday words cause you to think if they are correctly spelt!
On the bird aspect of this debate. No doubt there will be a few who will fly into the blades to start with, but birds would adapt, just a pigeons have learnt to read a Road Atlas. Wonder if they'll use the new M6 Toll road to save time. But where would they keep the toll money?
OK, sorry. There is a far greater threat to songbirds and other birds from the likes of the guntoting gourmets, who find a dozen or so Robins or Sparrows deepfried after being forcefed in darkness for a month as the pinnacle of eating nirvana, as these poor birds try to navigate their way through the 1000's of shotguns which form a barrier of lead shot as they try to get to neutral territory!
But will we stop this? Doubt it...
No not a cut and paste but a Bsc in environmental herritage.
Please. Let us leave the turbine huggers to their Great White non-Environmental Idols." On your knees before the all giving Elecricity Company Gods ".
Chester,
thank you for giving me a title a" Turbine Hugger", I would rather be one of those than a "Reactor Hugger", it's much safer, ye dinna glow in 'e dark, an the beach at Reay would have been safe to sit on.
Golach
Some people can get heated , but it's nice to hear from so many people with a Environmental bent . The main reason why Electricty Companies are pushing the renewables boat around . Is because for every KWH they produce through Renewables they get a certifcate called ROC's ,these can be used to offset the polluation generated from fossil fuels .So it's a get out off Jail Free Card so to speak . It's a one for one .Turbines really don't help to reduce CO2 emissions at present .You would be far better off to reduce the energy consumed at home . There is a huge ground swell of public support to recycle and to find ways to make renewable energy, planet and people friendly. It helps to know how the whole system works ,that comes from working in the industry .It was a pity that the Causewaymire Turbines came from Denmark (they have stock piles of turbine ,because they installation programme has stopped) they should have been made by a Brittish Company .Well never mind there's still a chance that we might get some of the 120 still to go up .
Chester ye are talking a load o kak ye are
ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEER Goodness me does that no sound so important and so full o yerself
full o statistics an nothing else
Sig Oh Ye Of Little Faith ,The truth is sometimes the hardest thing to except and the truth can to put a spanner in things like planning . There are some people that can't or will never hear the truth because all they hear is their own voice . In whatever job you do be it a doctor or farmer ,an outsider looking in can not know what a lifetime in the job can teach .Some people are born deaf or blind others choose to cover their ears and eyes ,to them nothing not even the truth can help .Yes it is true i know alot about statistics ,i have to that's the job . The one with the GET OUT OF JAIL CARD is true so is the figure that the turbine owners get roughly 10p pkwh ,with more than 50% of that coming from the tax payer .The figures involved are huge ,thats why they push for planning and if thing get sticky .They can then offer hand outs from which the local community may benefit ,some would say a sweetner and others a long term sugar coated pill .Wind turbines are great in the right place .If as a Environmental Engineer you destroy what you are trying to save (the environment)in the name of Renewable Energy we fail .
Anonymous
09-Feb-04, 11:07
Wait a minute!!!!
FAYRAY, did you not visit the page that I linked to? It has your whole article word for word? Did you actually write this piece for SAFEWIND.INFO???
let me give you the link again: http://safewind.info/articles/answers.htm
Please explain how this page has your post word for word, plus all kinds of supporting information?
Caledonia
09-Feb-04, 19:15
I fess up.
I wrote the article.
Browsing universal consciousness during my tea, I noticed FayRay was vacillating an undue time over his response. I made a brief telepathic intervention.
Never thought anyone would notice.
Well done.
So sue me!
Anonymous
11-Feb-04, 10:09
Surely thats not it?
There must be more that people feel about this topic? Or are we going to have to wait until a new wind farm is proposed before it sparks off again?
Oh well, at least one of us has learned that plagiarism will be not be accepted without rebuke. :roll:
I have nothing to say but bring em on.
Far be it for me to stir up the already muddy waters....BUT Chester you still have not enlightened this interested "Greeny" to what the defination and the remit of an "Environmental Engineer " is? I and I assume so many others would dearly like to know.
Golach
Steve and Shaz
11-Feb-04, 15:40
if, as suggested before an "environmental engineer" digs ditches - does someone with a bsc in environmental heritage save them for the nation.
Not wishing to insult any Environmental Engineers out there by insinuating they are ditch diggers, I was merely stating that even a run of the mill job could sound grand with a little title massage, e.g. Waste Management Technician (refuse collector).
Put us all out of our misery Chester! ;)
http://app100828.applicabroadband.net/images/flaminmad.gifMadPict
Caledonia
11-Feb-04, 17:08
As I recall from my days as an Afforestation Technician, for Fountain Forestry...
Caledonia
11-Feb-04, 17:12
BTW
In such a small community, revealing one's job is quite possibly revealing one's actual identity, (especially if one works in such a specialised field).
There are quite a lot of people who could be designated environmental engineers presently operating for the satanic mill out to the West.
;)
Caledonian,
if I was working in a field behind Staneland Farm would that be a specialised field
Golach
How many of you actually live near the wind farm??????
I do & out of my front window they wont spoil the view, out of my side widow they probably would I can already see the first mast but as I dont look out of my side window often I dont see it bothering me & to be quite honest I dont think they will look too bad, yes I know some will say they are spoiling the look of the countryside, but wasnt dounreay when it was first built & we all live with it nowadays.
its cheap energy once they make back the costs of building etc. Fossil fuels wont last forever I know I work in the oil industry, so why not harness more of nature , wind,sun water etc.
Caledonia
14-Feb-04, 00:29
While I am completely for the exploitation of the least damaging forms of energy production, I have a real problem with the negative way this positive move is being managed.
We need a unified planning authority to deal with this development, consistent regulations on siting, consultation, etc.
Only a fully standardised approach to these issues can result in us siting these eyesores in the places of least ‘impact’, technical limitations allowing.
It is all very well to say you don’t mind them, but that is not the only consideration of any normal planning application.
There are standards set for new developments, and these enormous structures have an impact much greater than sticking, say, a modern finish extension on a listed building. The fact is we are seeing a proliferation of huge industrial structures in non-industrial sites, extremely rural sites. Funny that… Not many people around to object, aye?
The real problem is that the whole methodology behind these developments is that of private enterprise and opportunism. Yes, the same idiotic inefficient schematic that ended with half the environmentally precious flow country being covered with conifers.
If we really want these developments, why don’t we build them as a community? Let us build them wherever is best, not just where someone wants to build them and happens to own the land and get away with it.
;)
Seeing Bill's latest pics made me think, good job they didn't site the turbines on the top of Maidens Pap!!
Would have been like giant 21st century tassles.....
Bill Fernie
17-Feb-04, 02:11
How about it then http://www.caithness.org/windfarms/maidenpapwindmills.jpg
And did you see the wee man on top of this picture to check the sheer scale of the ones at Causewaymire http://www.caithness.org/windfarms/photogallery/photos.htm?5?9
Look very closely to spot the man on the top.
simian sally
19-Feb-04, 03:15
Niall,
Thanks for your reply.
However, I hope he doesn't mean kilowatt-hours, or kilowatts per hour! Neither is correct. A correct unit would be kilowatts. Another would be "megajoules per year", or perhaps "electron-volts per millisecond", as long as the dimensions are "energy divided by time". Perhaps I was being too subtle, but I was just trying to point out that an engineer should be able to get the basics right when being authoritative!
As MadPict said:
Environmetal Enginner could be anything from a ditch digger to a landscape gardener ;)
Nice to see someone who knows what he's talking about, even if he is a cyborg. :eek:
Electron-volts per millisecond? Eek, how many windmills of 1eV/ms would you need on yer hoose? Roughly 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 o'the blighters, and that's just to bile yer kettle as yer used to.
As someone said:
So as I've said before, let the experts be quiet and lets hear the real reasons why people are for and against them
Yeah, whatever. Let's build a Parliament there too. Just don't let no experts have nuthin' to do with it, 'n' all'l be cool 'n' dandy.
The Devil knows nuthin' 'bout the detail and the Devil lives under the Dornoch Bridge. :evil
Caledonia
19-Feb-04, 04:38
I am glad to report that others are voicing my call for a unified planning strategy, according to the local press.
I don't really need to know anything of the detail to have a valid viewpoint; that is exactly what democracy is about.
WE should own these wind farms if they need to be built. Not some English owned PLC.
First it was the white sheep, now it is big white wind turbines.
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