Gaelic Road-signs

[The Pepsi Challenge]

No longer just a Caithness thang:

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Critics-pan-plan-to-put.5788975.jp

[Flashman]

I have never understood this drive to force a dead language on people in areas where it was never really spoken

It is a great shame that Gaelic is in total decline but Scotland is a meting pot of a few cultures and by promoting the Gaelic language as a national language is giving people the impression that we are all of that culture.

We Scots are proud of our cultures be it norse, norman or celt.

[Humerous Vegetable]

There are some bits of Edinburgh where they can barely understand English, never mind Gaelic. I was born there so this is not a hicks-from-the- sticks comment. In whole swathes of Sighthill and Craigmillar the residents seem only to communicate by grunting and snorting....especially the latter...

[Scorpio12thNov]

I can't believe that the Council are needlessly throwing away money on this project. Replacing signs will only put the city into further debt.
I can see that the Council are trying to promote the Gaelic language, but honestly, are we going to learn Gaelic by looking at road signs? Most probably cause an accident while deciphering the Gaelic more to the point...

[Alice in Blunderland]

As has been stated on many occasions this money is 'ringfenced'. It can only be spent on Gaelic. This has been set up by the Scottish Government. :)

[Rheghead]

As has been stated on many occasions this money is 'ringfenced'. It can only be spent on Gaelic. This has been set up by the Scottish Government. :)

So the SNP are responsible for the push on bilingual signs?:confused

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

Gaelic can be learned.The Scottish Education Board can do this.Get rid of French in schools.Turn it into Gaelic.P5-7 learn basic gaelic.First two years of High School learn gaelic instead of French.After that folk can take French,German for Standard Grade.Or folk can continue with Gaelic for Standard Grade that will get them nowhere,because very few speak it.

Gaelic is for people with too much time on their hands.I'll go to my death bed knowing only the gaelic swear words,oh dear.

[Alice in Blunderland]

So the SNP are responsible for the push on bilingual signs?:confused

No, they did not declare what to spend the money on. It was up to the councils to draw up their own plan. :eek:

Signs seem to be a popular if not controversial choice for the spend. :roll:

[Rheghead]

No, they did not declare what to spend the money on. It was up to the councils to draw up their own plan. :eek:

Signs seem to be a popular if not controversial choice for the spend. :roll:

But surely the SNP had an inkling on what the money was being aimed at when they made the money available for local government, these things aren't given out willy nilly without a corperate style meeting and dinners etc?

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

No, they did not declare what to spend the money on. It was up to the councils to draw up their own plan. :eek:

Signs seem to be a popular if not controversial choice for the spend. :roll:

Councils always draw up plans.The London council drew up plans for the 2012 Olympics.Most Londoners don't care about other sports except for fitbaw.Its all about money.To come back to Caithness,The Mod is coming.The visitors will be made welcome.Will we be speaking to each other in gaelic.Naw,we'll be talking about Wick Academy,in English.

[Scorpio12thNov]

As has been stated on many occasions this money is 'ringfenced'. It can only be spent on Gaelic.

Yeah true the money can only be spent on Gaelic but they don't need to spend the money on road signs.

& reading Pepsi's link, the article says that there is no specific budget for the project. So it could cost more than what the Council are banking for:eek:

[golach]

Councils always draw up plans.The London council drew up plans for the 2012 Olympics.Most Londoners don't care about other sports except for fitbaw..

I think your a wee bit off the baw there Cerdic, what about Wimbeldon & tennis, Lords and cricket, and Twikkers and Rugger, the Londeners attend them in the thousands[lol]

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

I think your a wee bit off the baw there Cerdic, what about Wimbeldon & tennis, Lords and cricket, and Twikkers and Rugger, the Londeners attend them in the thousands[lol]

[lol]Naw the Gaelic speaking Londoners go to the Tennis,Cricket and Rugby.The English speaking Londoners go to the fitbaw,sorry football.LOL

[Rheghead]

Cornwall is going through the same thing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6554120/Cornish-street-signs-to-be-translated.html

[Kodiak]

All Road Signs all over the UK should be in only one language and that is Latin. That would solve all the problems about Duplicate languages.

[Amy-Winehouse]

All Road Signs all over the UK should be in only one language and that is Latin. That would solve all the problems about uplicate languages.


Latin!!!!??? Thats even worse than Gaelic to understand. English only signs is far more helpful imo. Fair enough for those on the west coast , bilingual signs as most speak gaelic as first language that Ive met but not here.

[Stavro]

Gaelic can be learned.The Scottish Education Board can do this.Get rid of French in schools.

Capital idea and that way we would ensure the survival and growth of such an ancient culture! :)

[George Brims]

All Road Signs all over the UK should be in only one language and that is Latin. That would solve all the problems about Duplicate languages.
I see the same problem with Latin as with Gaelic - bigger signs. "Achingale" is longer than "Watten" as "Cantabrigensis" is longer than "Cambridge".

[highlander]

Sorry if a wee bit of topic, but i cant understand why so many houses in caithness are in gaelic names, i have asked the owners if they spoke fluent gaelic and why did they name thier houses in gaelic, their answer was it sounds good. To me thats a stupid answer!

[Abewsed]

What I would like to point out is that Caithness is not a Gaelic community, was not and today still is not. Of the 10 parishes in Caithness they are all non-Gaelic names, Thurso, Reay, Halkirk, Latheron, Bower, Wick, Canisbay, Dunnet, Olrig and Watten. In these parishes, the main centres are towns and villages named, Thurso, Reay, Halkirk, Dunbeath, Latheron, Lybster, Bower, Wick, Keiss, John O’Groats, Dunnet, Castletown, and Watten.

Now, we know that there are places named in Gaelic, but there are usually just farm steddings or crofts and most of these are located on the west side of Caithness. The earliest introduction of Gaelic place names was around the 12th century, but this was sporadic at best.

The main introduction of Gaelic place names seems to come in the late 17th and the 18th centuries. This was assumed to be when there was an influx of crofters settling in Caithness moors and cultivating the lands. These people are supposed to have been those coming into Caithness from the west, i.e. Sutherland.

The next burst of Gaelic in Caithness came during the Herring Fishing boom, i.e. The Silver Darlings. This was where Gaelic-speaking migrants mainly worked during the herring season on the east coast of Caithness. Pulteney Town was such an area, which had a large Gaelic community, but like the other areas in Caithness, when the herring season ended, they moved on, or back to their places of origin. Even when the herring boom in Scotland died off, the majority of Caithness was still speaking English, Scots and Norse dialect all in one, which was the formation of the Caithness dialect.

Some suggest that Gaelic was widely spoken in Caithness in the 1800’s. This I think is wrong, as the majority of those Gaelic speakers were only in locations like Lybster and Pulteney during the herring season. So if we play with statistics we will see that there were a large number of Gaelic speakers in Caithness, during the summer, but in winter they had moved on.

I was taught Gaelic in 6 and/or 7 year in Primary school, but when we went to the High School, it was French and no Gaelic. Most of us had never shown an interest in Gaelic in Caithness in the 1960, 1970, 1980 and 1990,s. Yet in 2000 we are now having this, mainly, western Scotland language shoved down our throats, for what?

Gaelic is a Scottish romantic language that has died out years ago. Whilst there are still Gaelic speaking communities in the Western Isles, what percentage of Scotland do they represent? It looks to me like the Highlands are being forced to have a foreign language implemented on them. The ironic thing is that if we look at the Highland region we will see that the majority of towns and villages are not even Gaelic named. Just look at the Highland’s, this word is English, as are Alness, Invergordon, Lairg, Bettyhill, Durness, and as are Sutherland and Ross-shire! There are even arguments about Inver not being Gaelic but a Celtic language derived from the Picts.

My own thoughts are that Gaelic signs are a total waste of money in the Highlands and are just another Scottish propaganda to promote a separate Scotland. We are at least 200 years too late to promote an otherwise dead language, even then, one that has and had no, or very little bearing or influence in Caithness. We are, or were, more related to the Norse and Old Scots language. So does this mean that if SNP are replaced by another party we will then have four signs in Caithness, English, Gaelic, Old Scots and Norse? The whole thing is ridiculous and should be left to the local areas to decide what language they want to see. Or as one person stated does this mean that Lowland Scotland should have Latin signs, as the Romans had occupied them! I think not!

[Rheghead]

So Abewsed, you acknowledge that Gaelic was actually widely spoken in our county and all those Gaelic immigrants are part of our rich heritage? The term 'Gaelic Community' or 'Norse Community' is a contrived description that assumes whatever is in the majority, that be as maybe as I'm not disputing that fact, but it certainly doesn't describe a community in which a minority language is widely spoken. You just need to go that one step further to realise that gaelic has got as much a right to be promoted in the county as English.

We see that Gaelic has had its twists and turns of success throughout history, history may yet prove that Gaelic signage is the impetus for another.

[Abewsed]

I will only acknowledge this fact as long as the English acknowledge that they should have Latin, German, French, Norse and Celtic sign posts! As they are all part of their own heritage. The point here is where do we draw the line? Our heritage is well documented and I am not saying that Gaelic was not part of the Caithness heritage. What I am saying is that it has no real part of Caithness’s heritage today, or since the herring boom. How many people seek Gaelic in Caithness, never mind able to read or pronounce it? Very few! It is a romantic language that has died out in Scotland. What next? Will we demand the romantic daily Scots diet or mutton, haggis and porridge being served on a daily basis at schools? Or even the old law that was passed stating that salmon could only be served to the apprentices twice a week. I can’t see the cash strapped schools serving salmon twice a week. Things have changed with time, as our language, its time to move on.

[Rheghead]

I think the difference is that latin, french, etc did actually die out in England whereas Gaelic did not suffer the same fate in Scotland. Whether we like it or not, we are part of a region and country where Gaelic is still being spoken and it seems to be having a slow resurgence on the back of SNP electoral success. I'd like to point out that in such a bouyant political landscape that Scotland has just now, swing-constituencies like the Western Isles have a powerful voice down in Holyrood. That is politics and democracy at work and since the wider Highland region is a Gaelic community in all but spoken language then it might be politically correct to bring the language of your forefathers back into use.

[Abewsed]

Latin and French and even German are being taught to a wider population in Scotland and England than Gaelic. In fact I assume that all first year pupils at high school are being taught French, but I could be wrong. If I am right there are more people today who have a better understanding of French than that of Gaelic. In Wikipedia it states that only 1.2% (58,562) of the Scottish population (2001) can speak Gaelic. The Gaelic speaking population in Scotland has never been over 10% since 1881 and even back to 1755 there were only 23% of the population who could speak Gaelic.

Now assuming that democracy is still in full swing with SNP, then by your assessment the minority has the biggest say. But that is SNP for you. In fact how many of the SNP SMP’s can even speak the language? An estimated 86,000 Polish were working in Scotland in 2008; does this now mean that we should have Polish signs?

[theone]

Latin and French and even German are being taught to a wider population in Scotland and England than Gaelic. In fact I assume that all first year pupils at high school are being taught French, but I could be wrong. If I am right there are more people today who have a better understanding of French than that of Gaelic. In Wikipedia it states that only 1.2% (58,562) of the Scottish population (2001) can speak Gaelic. The Gaelic speaking population in Scotland has never been over 10% since 1881 and even back to 1755 there were only 23% of the population who could speak Gaelic.

Now assuming that democracy is still in full swing with SNP, then by your assessment the minority has the biggest say. But that is SNP for you. In fact how many of the SNP SMP’s can even speak the language? An estimated 86,000 Polish were working in Scotland in 2008; does this now mean that we should have Polish signs?


Germany is the biggest exporter in the world. It makes more sense to me to teach languages that will help in future careers and business than for any other reason.

Out of the 1.2% of scots that speak gaelic how many speak it as their first/only language?

[weeboyagee]

Germany is the biggest exporter in the world. It makes more sense to me to teach languages that will help in future careers and business than for any other reason.

Out of the 1.2% of scots that speak gaelic how many speak it as their first/only language?
Hence I learned German before I learned Gaelic. But the one very much helped the other. Not getting involved in the Gaelic road-sign mangle, it's been on here more times than hot dinners since Oct 2007 (what a memory eh?) but how many learn another language in the first place??? Damn few. Too small minded believing the world should learn English.

If you ask me, people living in the UK have a phobia about learning another language in general. In most other countries having two languages (or more) is part of life. About time we went out and got one (a language or a life - either word would fit).

WBG :cool:

[Abewsed]

Lets be honest here, who is the Gaelic signs for? Is it for the tourists? If so how many foreigners can read Gaelic, never mind pronounce it? I have this image in my head of a foreigner, who is probably more used to driving on the other side of the road, driving along whilst their partner is looking at the road map to try and find their destination. Then as they are driving along, headed to say Latheron and they are reading the AA Road Map, which is in English. Then all of a sudden they are faced with a double sign; one in English and the other is in Gaelic. Two things can happen, one they ignore the Gaelic sign post as it bears no relevance to their road map, or the other is they notice the Gaelic one and crash the car whilst trying to decipher it.

If the road signs are for us, the local community, then it is also a waste of money, as the only sign I notice coming north is the Caithness sign at the Ord. All the rest I ignore, as I know where I am going. However again if I am heading south and need sign posts to tell me where to go, I need a road map, which is in English, so I again ignore the Gaelic signs. I have this vision of thousands of signposts dotted along the A9 from Perth blocking out the scenery and for what? We have a big debate about windmills being an eyesore, what will it be like with more signs?

If we are to promote and save our (depending where you live) native language, then it is more sense to start at school and teach it when we are young. Then in 50 years time when we are all bi-lingual we can then read, write and speak in Gaelic. This then would lead to less time teaching the basic education. Also it would be classed as bias as then we would need primary school teachers to be able to able to teach Gaelic.

The signs will not teach us to read or preserve Gaelic, just to recognise the sign. To preserve Gaelic, we would need to be able to read it, write it, speak it and use its proper grammar. Lets for example say I am going to drive to Dusseldorf and on the way I pass numerous place names to get there. Does this then mean I can speak German? Or even understand what Dusseldorf means? No, for all I care they could use the postcode, it is just an indication where to head, it is a sign, like an arrow, to help navigate to an area, that is all. It has no bearing on preserving a language or even teaching it.

[badger]

I just wish the Govt. and Council promoters of Gaelic, plus the Mod organisers, would get into their thick heads that opposition to Gaelic road signs has nothing to do with opposition to the language per se and especially nothing to do with the Mod coming to Caithness. That's wonderful, great, brilliant - but will they get lost coming here if the road signs are not in Gaelic? I don't think so.

At the risk of repeating myself, it's all a question of priorities and right now the UK can't afford anything that isn't essential (and that includes NHS Highland spending £80,000 on consultants just to tell them they need Gaelic tv in hospitals). What on earth is the cost of all this translation in public documents? It's not necessary so they shouldn't do it. What part of "we can't afford it" do Govts. and Councils not understand.

England is currently spending £50m. on updating and opening up the coastal walk so people can walk all the way round the coast. Lovely idea but not now. There are more important things.

[Rheghead]

We have a big debate about windmills being an eyesore, what will it be like with more signs?

Would it passify the critics of bilingual signs if the money was shown to come out of the rates from wind farms? :roll: