View Full Version : The Return of Conscription ?
The M.O.D./Government have announced that normal Territorial Army training will be suspended until April 2010.
Apart from these soldiers currently scheduled to go on active service in the near future who will have some pre-embarkation training, the rest are out on a limb.
For the past few years the T.A. have in effect been part of the Regular Army and add about 19000 men to the strength.
Their pay is made up of a set amount per training day plus an annual bounty payable if the requisite amount of training days have been undertaken. These fellows are now in a situation where they can not do the required training days so their annual bounty will not be paid. That will equate to around a 50% pay cut in most cases.
Result, they are resigning in droves, and will be impossible to replace. Nobody is going to sign up when at the drop of a hat the paymasters say " our side of the contract is cancelled, we have no more money to pay you". They will of course still be expected to serve alongside the Regular troops in the future but with much reduced training.
T.A. strength has been reduced from around 57,000 to the present 19,000 in the past few years and it seems inconceivable that the Army can continue to meet their commitments without the Territorial presence.
Is the present Government setting the scene for conscription in the near future - under the next administration of course. Or do they just not care about the Armed Forces ?
Is the present Government setting the scene for conscription in the near future - under the next administration of course. Or do they just not care about the Armed Forces ?
Let us hope so. The youth of today needs the discipline of the Armed Forces and it would do our country the world of good if conscription was to return.
Is the present Government setting the scene for conscription in the near future - under the next administration of course. Or do they just not care about the Armed Forces ?
Two parts to the question.
Conscription - Not a snowball's chance in hell - the military are too busy to deal with people who don't want to be there. Unless there had been a major change in military thinking they're against any form of conscription.
Government concern about the military - From day one of the first Gulf War and their track record since they have failed to honour the Military Covenant.
At the moment retention - both Regular and TA - is one of the MoD's major preoccupations.
northener
26-Oct-09, 17:19
Modern professional armed forces are no place for conscripts. They are not there to provide moral guidance and support for a disaffected youth, nor are they the place for those who are less than 100% comitted to doing their job to a very high standard.
Our Armed Forces are there to carry out HM Governments policies throught the use of force or the threat of force when required, not become some sort of social programme.
Regarding the TA: They have gone from being source of much amusement amongst the regular troops (cornershop commandoes is one of my favourites) to a being, in recent years, a well trained and mostly professional body.
As usual, this a decision based upon fiscal policy with no thought whatsoever being put into how this will impact on the fighting effectiveness of HM Forces. An absolute bloody shambles - as usual.
Peace and love to you all.
I still don't get this conscription will cure all our ills theory. I've spoken to conscripts - they learnt a lot,- how not to volunteer, how to nick or nick back whatever someboby else had stolen or been lost before kit inspection. People learned how to dodge, break the rules and not get caught, skive and polish things.
How does this make the world a better place? learning to do what you are told because someone is watching rather than because you want to. Right enough it may be shinier, all the tricks and experiences I have had described would not have made me a better person. Just even more cynical.
well it would get a few off the dole for a start!
northener
26-Oct-09, 21:47
well it would get a few off the dole for a start!
With respect, Katarina - Sod the Dole and sod conscription. The Armed Forces are not some dumping ground for shiftless sorts and the unemployed, that's a Government problem - not the AF of Britain.
Put it this way Katarina, if you was out in Helmand or some other God-forsaken hole ducking machine-gun fire.....who would you want backing you up? Some guy who is there as some part of his 'introduction to work experience' or someone who you know will fight to the death to pull you out of the ############? (infraction expected).
well it would get a few off the dole for a start!
Well, how true but there is a lot on the dole that were not academically smart enough to stay 6years at High school although the standards have dropped to enable scholars to gain entrance to university to keep the labour government's dole figures down, then after how ever many years at Uni they can then join the dole queue with their student debt loans. How would the 18 and 19 years old still in 6th year getting whatever they need to get into UNI do if they were called up? Five years at secondary education should suffice for University entrance.
Conscription is not the answer to the nation's unemployable thugs. Armed forces need people of strong character not weaklings.
zeppellin
26-Oct-09, 22:00
[quote=davie;612488]
Result, they are resigning in droves, and will be impossible to replace. Nobody is going to sign up when at the drop of a hat the paymasters say " our side of the contract is cancelled, we have no more money to pay you". They will of course still be expected to serve alongside the Regular troops in the future but with much reduced training. quote]
Not if they have resigned from the T.A.
I am probably paranoid and see a hidden agenda in anything the present Government touches but I still see them forcing conscription on the next tenants of the Mother of Pig Troughs.
There is no doubt that the military would not welcome conscription but the Government's actions on this one make it look to me that there will soon be no alternative if troop numbers are to be sustained.
As Gronnuck says the establishment have failed to honour the Military Covenant in various ways - resulting in regular soldiers leaving in great numbers.
The recent announcement regarding T.A. pay (even including todays partial about face) will result in the loss of a large number of Territorials - so just where do the services recruit in the future ?
I am probably paranoid and see a hidden agenda in anything the present Government touches
So its not just me then......phew!
zeppellin
26-Oct-09, 22:26
I am probably paranoid and see a hidden agenda in anything the present Government touches but I still see them forcing conscription on the next tenants of the Mother of Pig Troughs.
There is no doubt that the military would not welcome conscription but the Government's actions on this one make it look to me that there will soon be no alternative if troop numbers are to be sustained.
As Gronnuck says the establishment have failed to honour the Military Covenant in various ways - resulting in regular soldiers leaving in great numbers.
The recent announcement regarding T.A. pay (even including todays partial about face) will result in the loss of a large number of Territorials - so just where do the services recruit in the future ?
By your own admission, you are paranoid. The Government are prioritising the training and funding in favour of the regular armed forces (Navy, Air Force and the Army.) The have gone on record stating that no soldier, Territorial or otherwise, will be deployed in combat without the proper training. Is it too much to ask that you believe them until you have substantive proof that this is not the case?.....Probably.:confused
To be honest what would having conscription do?
To think that it would sort out any juevinelle dilegiments (sp) out is naive. Nothing short of a harsh dose of reality and teaching from a very young age about respect and what is right and wrong is the ticket to fix that.
All forcing conscription on people would acheive would be having people in the armed forces who just don't want to be there, therefore won't do their job properly and with the care and attention someone who wants to be there would do. It's putting other people at risk as the person that doesn't want to be there would do everything to not be there.
Teaching children about respect and bringing them up to be honest, hard working people by being just that yourself.
As an example of what i mean (I'm not meaning to be arrogant with this example) i know someone who has a wee baby boy just turned 8 months, she isn't going back to work and is happy staying in the same place for the rest of her life living off benefits. I when my kids do come along will be working towards being somebody and not a employee number for the rest fo my life. What example do you think will encourage a child to do something meaningful with their life?
I do not mean any offence to anyone by my post i'm just merely stating that i personally think that if you give a child a good role model to follow then they are inspired to do well.
With respect, Katarina - Sod the Dole and sod conscription. The Armed Forces are not some dumping ground for shiftless sorts and the unemployed, that's a Government problem - not the AF of Britain.
Put it this way Katarina, if you was out in Helmand or some other God-forsaken hole ducking machine-gun fire.....who would you want backing you up? Some guy who is there as some part of his 'introduction to work experience' or someone who you know will fight to the death to pull you out of the ############? (infraction expected).
Fully agree with you Northerner. Work experience?????? 6th year secondary pupils??????????? Tell that to the Marines??????? I would not like the dole queue to defend my humble lifestyle, Sorreeee.
Tubthumper
26-Oct-09, 23:32
Never mind all this serious stuff. There's an advertising banner at the top of this page for 'Army Records UK' which I thought might be interesting. Typed in my name, it came back with 'available'. Follow the link, guess what, you have to pay $39 for VIP access. Hmm...
Somewhat suspicious I went back and when asked for a serviceman's name typed 'Maboza Ritchie'. And guess what; Mr Ritchie's records are available too or so it seems.
I wonder what rank he got to and whether he was a conscript...
I seriously doubt that conscription will happen in the UK again.
It is a different country in a different world and we're facing very different hostilities.
I for one would fight tooth and nail not to to be signed up and sent off to support some tinpot idiots personal future legacy. Don't get me wrong, I support 100% every single member of the armed forces who are out there in some horrendous places facing situations most of us cannot imagine. (We start whimping and whinging about a thread on here!!!)
They, like most of the electorate have been shafted by the government. But they go out there and put their lives on the line in our name. The government now has a huge, mammoth problem they didn't see, like many, the credit crunch.
When "they" signed us up to this war against WMD's or as Dubya's puppets etc. they didn't see the arse falling out of the economy, they are massively over committed and now hugely underfunded.
There are reams of cutbacks, the TA is just part of it. In the bigger picture there is a bit too much media hype around this. It is still wrong, very, very damaging and destroying moral. But the idea probably came from some Luddite civil servant that thinks the the TA is in reality Dad's Army and he has "crunched some numbers".
But even with conscription they would need to pay up. They would still need to kit out (laughably) the conscripts, train them and pay a wage.
Just look today at the outcome of an RAF Helicopter crash, 3 crew died and this was due to a lack of discipline in the flight crew. These were VOLUNTEER members of the forces, what sort of problems would you see if we were signing up the dolites and ne'er dowells?
(I'm not suggesting a conscript will find themselves commanding a helicopter a few weeks after being dragged in but they would be part of the bigger team and every single member of that team HAS to be commited and has to work properly)
I'm sorry, even if conscription did come back, it's not going to work in this society today. It will not cure all our ills, rid us of crime, empty our prisons, deplete the dole queue nor unite the .Org!
I understand some peoples sentiment but I can't help but think that some of those calling for it now haven't actually truly experienced it in the reality of war. I remember, vividly, speaking with a WW2 Spitfire Fighter Pilot, he was conscripted into the RAF along with many of his friends and peers. He considered it slaughter.
Something like 19 hours flight training and he went out and watched many of his friends get blown out of the sky.
OOOHH, just thought of this...conscription for Bankers only!
northener
27-Oct-09, 00:07
Lots of good comments on here.
My God! Does this mean we're having a rational discussion on the .Orgh???
Plenty here to talk about, but I'm now too pished to comment rationally.
CU all tomorra...
Peace and Love.
By your own admission, you are paranoid. The Government are prioritising the training and funding in favour of the regular armed forces (Navy, Air Force and the Army.) The have gone on record stating that no soldier, Territorial or otherwise, will be deployed in combat without the proper training. Is it too much to ask that you believe them until you have substantive proof that this is not the case?.....Probably.:confused
You miss the point of the original question. If the Territorial Army are not paid their full wage ( that includes annual bounty) then the Territorial Army will be no more. Or are you prepared to sign up on a purely volunteer basis - no wages ?.
I ask again the question, how does the Army replace the T.A. ?
zeppellin
27-Oct-09, 01:20
You miss the point of the original question. If the Territorial Army are not paid their full wage ( that includes annual bounty) then the Territorial Army will be no more. Or are you prepared to sign up on a purely volunteer basis - no wages ?.
I ask again the question, how does the Army replace the T.A. ?
I'm not prepared to sign up at all, I'm a conscientious objector, remember? To answer your other question, they don't need the T.A. They are simply funding properly the regular army. Gordon Brown gave a commitment during last weeks PMQ's that no soldier would be deployed to Afghanistan unless they had a minimum 18 months training. Unless you have evidence that he is lying (which would be political dynamite, not to mention extremely lucrative,) you should accept his word on this matter. Doesn't mean you have to agree with him though.
Well, how true but there is a lot on the dole that were not academically smart enough to stay 6years at High school although the standards have dropped to enable scholars to gain entrance to university to keep the labour government's dole figures down, then after how ever many years at Uni they can then join the dole queue with their student debt loans. How would the 18 and 19 years old still in 6th year getting whatever they need to get into UNI do if they were called up? Five years at secondary education should suffice for University entrance.
Conscription is not the answer to the nation's unemployable thugs. Armed forces need people of strong character not weaklings.
Have to agree to a certain extent. I have been reseaching the sudden upturn in young people joining the forces, as right now it's at an all time high. Having met quite a lot of them I would say they are not of strong character at all. The phrase 'cannon fodder' comes to mind.
Gordon Brown gave a commitment during last weeks PMQ's that no soldier would be deployed to Afghanistan unless they had a minimum 18 months training. Unless you have evidence that he is lying (which would be political dynamite, not to mention extremely lucrative,) you should accept his word on this matter. Doesn't mean you have to agree with him though.
:eek: Of course I believe everything our esteemed Gordie says. He's a paragon of virtue. He's never put any spin on any of his statements in all the time he's been an MP. In particular he would never attempt to put any 'spin' on anything he says about the military.
Yeh right - if anyone believes that they must be incredibly naive.
Have to agree to a certain extent. I have been reseaching the sudden upturn in young people joining the forces, as right now it's at an all time high. Having met quite a lot of them I would say they are not of strong character at all. The phrase 'cannon fodder' comes to mind.
Down through history there have been clearly defined reasons for increasing numbers joining the military. Economic recession is one. However the problem the military has is how to hang on to the trained soldiers, the NCOs and Officers it already has. The loss is particularly acute among the ranks of SNCOs. Many will have seen service in the Balkans, Iraq and Afghanistan with all the experience and expertise gathered along the way.
Down through history there have been clearly defined reasons for increasing numbers joining the military. Economic recession is one. However the problem the military has is how to hang on to the trained soldiers, the NCOs and Officers it already has. The loss is particularly acute among the ranks of SNCOs. Many will have seen service in the Balkans, Iraq and Afghanistan with all the experience and expertise gathered along the way.
Yes, lack of jobs, apprenticeships and training courses in the current climate has a lot do do with it, so does certain forms of glamourisation.
northener
27-Oct-09, 10:29
Have to agree to a certain extent. I have been reseaching the sudden upturn in young people joining the forces, as right now it's at an all time high. Having met quite a lot of them I would say they are not of strong character at all. The phrase 'cannon fodder' comes to mind.
Why does the phrase 'cannon fodder' spring to mind?
With respect, Katarina - Sod the Dole and sod conscription. The Armed Forces are not some dumping ground for shiftless sorts and the unemployed, that's a Government problem - not the AF of Britain.
Put it this way Katarina, if you was out in Helmand or some other God-forsaken hole ducking machine-gun fire.....who would you want backing you up? Some guy who is there as some part of his 'introduction to work experience' or someone who you know will fight to the death to pull you out of the ############? (infraction expected).
With respect, I think a lot of todays 'lost' youth could prove to have a lot of potential. you are assuming that just because a young person is 'shiftless' as a teen, it is because of something lacking in his/her personal make up. This may well be so in many cases, but what about those who only need discipline and a sense of belonging to bring out the best in them? some kids out there have never had a chance. I think, give them some serious sense of purpose, and they might surprise you.
northener
27-Oct-09, 11:12
With respect, I think a lot of todays 'lost' youth could prove to have a lot of potential. you are assuming that just because a young person is 'shiftless' as a teen, it is because of something lacking in his/her personal make up. This may well be so in many cases, but what about those who only need discipline and a sense of belonging to bring out the best in them? some kids out there have never had a chance. I think, give them some serious sense of purpose, and they might surprise you.
We're getting crossed wires here, Katarina.
My comments are that the Armed Forces is no place for someone to be sent to prove if they 'have potential' or not.
To reiterate my point: the Armed Forces are there to deal with dangerous situations and not to 'bring out the best' in people who have been ordered to go there (conscription). You are asking a fighting force to become social workers. As I said, social work and the welfare of the days youth are a Government problem - not the British Armed Forces.
Our troops have to be able to rely 110% on their oppo when the going gets tough. You will not get that same level of commitment from a huge body of unwilling 'conscripts'.
Comparisons with conscription during WWI&II are not possible, in those situations the country was under direct threat and many felt it was their duty to defend their homeland when called up. Helicoptering British troops into distant wars that may or may not be fought purely for political reasons is not the same.
The only way I could see any form of 'conscription' working would be in Israeli-style Kibbutzes. Where young people are sent to a community farm/area to work towards the common good of the community. No guns, no expecting the Military to take on unwilling conscripts and no military involvement whatsoever.
Why does the phrase 'cannon fodder' spring to mind?
It comes to mind from meeting a large number of young men and women who are going into the Army from very complex backgrounds and with multiple barriers in life, lack of education, coming through care, touching on the edge of offending and those sort of things and it came accross to me that they were looking at the Army as a way out of their problems and to get away from chaotic lifestyles.
I just feel that a lot of them haven't a clue what they are doing.
northener
27-Oct-09, 11:58
It comes to mind from meeting a large number of young men and women who are going into the Army from very complex backgrounds and with multiple barriers in life, lack of education, coming through care, touching on the edge of offending and those sort of things and it came accross to me that they were looking at the Army as a way out of their problems and to get away from chaotic lifestyles.
I just feel that a lot of them haven't a clue what they are doing.
The Forces have always been a bolt-hole for some people. I did the same.
I think that classing many of those who join up as 'not having a clue' is somewhat wide of the mark. There's enough coverage in the media of the crappy side of life in the Forces to enable even the most dimwitted to make an informed decision. Not only that, getting into the 'Mob' is a damn sight harder than you'd imagine these days. Gone are the days of simply marching into the local recruiting Office and signing on - or the local Sherriff giving a young tearway an opportunity to 'resolve their issues' by joining up....They are all thoroughly vetted these days. The Forces no longer take waifs and strays, a modern fighting unit is no place for many of them.
However, sometimes people get in who shouldn't really be there. That's why the basic training is rigorous - they need to weed out the clueless and the misfits early on. Their being there helps no-one, least of all the Armed Forces.
Cannon Fodder? No way. To imply that modern Western troops are merely a collection of witless, gullible misfits to be marched into the mouths of the enemies' cannons at a Governments whim is nothing like the reality.
tonkatojo
27-Oct-09, 12:29
for future conscripts to contemplate.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Get upset if you are too busy to talk to them for a week.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Are glad to see you after many years; and will happily carry on the same conversation you were having last time you met.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Never ask for food.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Are the reason you have no food.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Call your parents Mr and Mrs.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Call your parents Mum and Dad.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Have never seen you cry.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Cry with you.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Borrow your stuff for a few days then give it back.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Keep your stuff so long they forget it's yours.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Know a few things about you.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Could write a book with a shed full of direct quotes from you.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Will leave you behind if that is what the crowd is doing.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Will kick the backsides of whole crowds that left you behind.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Would knock on your door.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Walk right in and say, 'I'm home, got any beer!
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Share a few experiences.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Share a lifetime of experiences no civilian could ever dream of.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Will take your drink away when they think you've had enough.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Will look at you stumbling all over the place and say, 'You had better drink the rest of that, don't waste it. Then they carry you home and put you safely to bed.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Are for a while.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Are for life.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Will ignore this.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Will forward this to their military mates
It comes to mind from meeting a large number of young men and women who are going into the Army from very complex backgrounds and with multiple barriers in life, lack of education, coming through care, touching on the edge of offending and those sort of things and it came accross to me that they were looking at the Army as a way out of their problems and to get away from chaotic lifestyles.
I just feel that a lot of them haven't a clue what they are doing.
Of course many people may see a disciplined life in the military as a means of giving ‘structure’ to one’s life. Where they will be fed, watered, educated, see the world and solve all their personal problems. Many people may take the view that in exchange for all this they become ‘cannon fodder’.
I will agree that for a few people this might be the case but for many they would be hard pressed to get past the Recruiter’s interviews, the Selection Test and the first few weeks of their initial training. You mustn’t forget that those working in the recruitment processes and in military training have been there, done the job, worn the ‘T’ shirt and in all probability been shot at. They know what they want. They don’t want someone with complex personal problems who might have to be ‘carried’.
At the same time the recruits quickly learn what they've let themselves in for and what their likely deployment is to be. Most will work towards becoming a useful member of the team. Team work is everything in the military and the team is only as strong as the weakest member.
for future conscripts to contemplate.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Get upset if you are too busy to talk to them for a week.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Are glad to see you after many years; and will happily carry on the same conversation you were having last time you met.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Never ask for food.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Are the reason you have no food.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Call your parents Mr and Mrs.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Call your parents Mum and Dad.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Have never seen you cry.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Cry with you.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Borrow your stuff for a few days then give it back.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Keep your stuff so long they forget it's yours.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Know a few things about you.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Could write a book with a shed full of direct quotes from you.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Will leave you behind if that is what the crowd is doing.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Will kick the backsides of whole crowds that left you behind.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Would knock on your door.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Walk right in and say, 'I'm home, got any beer!
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Share a few experiences.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Share a lifetime of experiences no civilian could ever dream of.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Will take your drink away when they think you've had enough.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Will look at you stumbling all over the place and say, 'You had better drink the rest of that, don't waste it. Then they carry you home and put you safely to bed.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Are for a while.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Are for life.
CIVILIAN FRIENDS: Will ignore this.
MILITARY FRIENDS: Will forward this to their military mates
An apt reminder of what it's all about - I will forward this to my military mates
tonkatojo
27-Oct-09, 13:10
I wouldn't have typed all that as a rule, but I am going to a reunion next week and will be meeting palls I have not seen for 38-40 years. I know what I typed to be true as I will experience it again next week.
Although I wasn't a conscript I was very young when I signed up, I would encourage those that have no aim in life to do it, as I did with no regrets.
northener
27-Oct-09, 13:22
I wouldn't have typed all that as a rule, but I am going to a reunion next week and will be meeting palls I have not seen for 38-40 years. I know what I typed to be true as I will experience it again next week.
Although I wasn't a conscript I was very young when I signed up, I would encourage those that have no aim in life to do it, as I did with no regrets.
I did nine years myself. I do not regret one minute of it, even the bad bits.
Would I do it again or recommend it to someone? Yes, providing you are always prepared to give more than you can take.
I just feel that a lot of them haven't a clue what they are doing.
You quite right, a lot of them don't know what their doing and probably find themselves not getting in, a few may skim in but they wont get past basic training.
It certainly isn't the best place for people that have been through the care system, have "complex backgrounds" or have other serious issues.
They may need help from other areas.
I do know a few guys who joined up who had mis-pent youths or wayward teenage years, but that was about the limit, wayward teenagers. (Certainly not the disenfranchised, criminal, drug abusing, violent, disinterested ijeets who are waiting for a free ride.)
But these guys were smart enough to realise just what was involved and what the realities were when they decided to sign up.
A friends son signed up a few years back, he was a tearaway and heading for prison. He did get in but he bottled it during the initial training when he realised that he would be getting sent off to meet the the likes of the Taliban. I don't blame him for that decision, at least he was smart enough to realise that it wasn't the answer.
I know there are plenty of people out there that will say the military "straightened them out" and similar but a lot of these people probably had a drive and ability but just needed a focus for it.
Even if you did go the road of conscription but held the entry level standard I'd bet the majority would be spewd at the psychometric assessment stage if not before.
The MoD does not have a great reputation for helping people readjust after service, one guy I know after 12 years service left for civvy street. He lived on base all through his cracking military career and had a lot of things dealt with for him. I was there when he cracked up, what pushed him over the edge was he didn't know how to pay his gas bill. Civvy street was the scariest place he'd ever been.
So post conscription what are all these former waifs and strays going to do?
A lot of conscripts in the post war era had a job to go back to after their service. Not the same world today.
We're getting crossed wires here, Katarina.
My comments are that the Armed Forces is no place for someone to be sent to prove if they 'have potential' or not.
To reiterate my point: the Armed Forces are there to deal with dangerous situations and not to 'bring out the best' in people who have been ordered to go there (conscription). You are asking a fighting force to become social workers. As I said, social work and the welfare of the days youth are a Government problem - not the British Armed Forces.
Our troops have to be able to rely 110% on their oppo when the going gets tough. You will not get that same level of commitment from a huge body of unwilling 'conscripts'.
Comparisons with conscription during WWI&II are not possible, in those situations the country was under direct threat and many felt it was their duty to defend their homeland when called up. Helicoptering British troops into distant wars that may or may not be fought purely for political reasons is not the same.
The only way I could see any form of 'conscription' working would be in Israeli-style Kibbutzes. Where young people are sent to a community farm/area to work towards the common good of the community. No guns, no expecting the Military to take on unwilling conscripts and no military involvement whatsoever.
Well said Northerner,
I personally say let the social work department deal with the misfits in society.There are plenty of social workers commanding high salaries. Why would going to the forces sort someone out? In fact it is very condescending of Katrina to even think that is the answer.
Armed forces recruits go through rigorous entrance tests and have to have impeccable background reports. However like everything else a few slip the network but it does not take long to weed them out unlike private industry.
Surely the Forces need the best in order to combat terrorism, wars ect therefore conscripts who don't want to be there would be more of a hindrance than anything else. I have known ones who joined up and hated it so much they injured themselves to get medically discharged.
Murdina Bug
28-Oct-09, 14:10
Good news! (From The Guardian website)
David Cameron accused the government of a "humiliating climbdown" today over plans to cut £20m from the Territorial Army's training budget as he challenged the prime minister's claims about the country's economic recovery.
During bad-tempered exchanges at Commons question time, the Tory leader asked Gordon Brown why he keeps "getting it wrong".
Cameron spoke out after it emerged last night that prime minister had bowed to intense pressure from MPs of all parties - including the former defence secretary John Reid and other senior Labour backbenchers such as Lindsay Hoyle - and personally intervened to cancel a proposal to cut the army's training budget.
Cameron said: "While I welcome the government U-turn on cutting £20m from the TA budget, what on earth was he thinking of cutting army training when the country is at war?"
The prime minister Brown says the government has to ensure the regular army has the numbers necessary, and pointed out a boost to recruits.
Cameron replied: "He can't get away from the fact he was proposing cuts in basic training, which means you cannot fight a war."
Good news on this at last.
I fear however that T.A. numbers and recruitment will suffer, I would be wary of signing up now, in the knowledge that some imbecile can pull the plug on training and wages at the drop of a hat.
The man Brown and his cohorts seem to have forgotten that the T.A. for some time has been an integral part of the Armed Force, if they were even aware of it.
Is there anything they touch that does not become a complete shambles ?
It may sound like good news but will it last? All political parties acknowledge that the Treasury needs to balance the books, the question is how and where. Pardon the pun but the military have always been easy targets for spending cuts for whoever has been in power and announcing spending cuts on the military just now while we are in a war is a very emotive subject and whilst we are on the eve of a General Election is just bad political shrewdness rather than bad Governance by the Labour Party. I'm rather surprised by just the timing frankly.
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