View Full Version : Swine Flu Vaccine / Too Slow
The Swine Flu Vaccine programme has been started in Scotland.
A total of 1.3 million people in Scotland are in priority groups with the first access to the H1N1 vaccine.
They include social care and health workers, pregnant women, people with asthma, diabetes and those having cancer treatment.
Other people prioritised for the first round of vaccinations will be contacted by their GP over coming weeks.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8317068.stm
With the vaccine would it actually prevent you getting that strain or make it hit you as hard?
I fall into the category of care worker so will properly get called to get it.
Hmm...
Alice in Blunderland
21-Oct-09, 14:14
With the vaccine would it actually prevent you getting that strain or make it hit you as hard?
I fall into the category of care worker so will properly get called to get it.
Hmm...
I didnt realise that nursery workers were in that group.
I didnt realise that nursery workers were in that group.
We have to get the hep b injection now as well. My step sister is starting her childcare course and she has to get it to go onto placement.
I do think it is a bit ott but never mind. Safety concience is the goverment.:roll:
ShelleyCowie
21-Oct-09, 16:25
Do we have a choice? Me and my OH are asthmatic and dont want the vaccine. I took a reaction to an ordinary flu jab so not keen on getting thisn. And well.....my OH doesnt like needles!
The Swine Flu Vaccine programme has been started in Scotland.
A total of 1.3 million people in Scotland are in priority groups with the first access to the H1N1 vaccine.
They include social care and health workers, pregnant women, people with asthma, diabetes and those having cancer treatment.
Other people prioritised for the first round of vaccinations will be contacted by their GP over coming weeks.
Stay warm and dry, eat quality food, drink plenty of water and avoid the untested H1N1 vaccine at all costs is my advice.
George Brims
21-Oct-09, 18:13
Stay warm and dry, eat quality food, drink plenty of water and avoid the untested H1N1 vaccine at all costs is my advice.
However you will be just fine with the real H1N1 vaccine, which has been tested just like the flu vaccine every year.
Alice in Blunderland
21-Oct-09, 18:26
Stay warm and dry, eat quality food, drink plenty of water and avoid the untested H1N1 vaccine at all costs is my advice.
I thought this vaccine had been tested as well as the seasonal flu vaccine.
Its each individuals choice whether or not to take this vaccine but to advise someone not to at all costs is a bit strong.
Just say someone reading this post decided not to have the vaccine because of your post, contracted the disease and died. :eek:
I would post information for or against and then let the individual make up their own mind then on their own shoulders be it. Is that not better than advising to avoid at all costs.
I take it you are well qualified in this field ? ;)
However you will be just fine with the real H1N1 vaccine, which has been tested just like the flu vaccine every year.
The "real" vaccine?
Here are a couple of quotes from the Daily Mail Online site from August this year,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1205267/Children-given-untested-swine-flu-vaccine.html
"Pharmaceutical companies manufacturing the jabs do not have any paediatric safety data for the drugs, which could be distributed to children in the autumn."
"During the last swine flu outbreak in the US in 1976, a vaccine caused 25 deaths – more than the virus itself. Dr [Tom] Jefferson said a repeat of that ‘was possible’."
With the vaccine would it actually prevent you getting that strain or make it hit you as hard?
I fall into the category of care worker so will properly get called to get it.
Hmm...
Nursery staff are not classed as social care. They come under the educational bracket.
Its each individuals choice whether or not to take this vaccine but to advise someone not to at all costs is a bit strong.
Just say someone reading this post decided not to have the vaccine because of your post, contracted the disease and died. :eek:
Advice is just that, advice. What if I kept quiet, knowing some of the risks with this vaccine, and a pregnant woman, for example, took the vaccine and died (or her and her husband's baby died), what then?
I do agree with you, however, that it is for the individual (or couple) to review the evidence for and against and then to decide for themselves. It is not for me to tell them - and it is not for the government to them them either.
tonkatojo
21-Oct-09, 18:46
I thought this vaccine had been tested as well as the seasonal flu vaccine.
Its each individuals choice whether or not to take this vaccine but to advise someone not to at all costs is a bit strong.
Just say someone reading this post decided not to have the vaccine because of your post, contracted the disease and died. :eek:
I would post information for or against and then let the individual make up their own mind then on their own shoulders be it. Is that not better than advising to avoid at all costs.
I take it you are well qualified in this field ? ;)
Are you taking it up Alice ?? ( the vaccine offer ).
I know I shall. :)
Alice in Blunderland
21-Oct-09, 19:05
Are you taking it up Alice ?? ( the vaccine offer ).
I know I shall. :)
Yes I am taking the vaccine and so is hubby and my daughter (asthmatic) who is also in the first round of folks being called for it. :D
Alice in Blunderland
21-Oct-09, 19:07
Advice is just that, advice. What if I kept quiet, knowing some of the risks with this vaccine, and a pregnant woman, for example, took the vaccine and died (or her and her husband's baby died), what then?
I do agree with you, however, that it is for the individual (or couple) to review the evidence for and against and then to decide for themselves. It is not for me to tell them - and it is not for the government to them them either.
Exactly my point post information then leave it up to the individual. :)
George Brims
21-Oct-09, 19:22
Advice is just that, advice. What if I kept quiet, knowing some of the risks with this vaccine, and a pregnant woman, for example, took the vaccine and died (or her and her husband's baby died), what then?
Well here's a risk for you. This H1N1 swine flu kills FOUR PERCENT of the pregnant women who catch it. By comparison the mortality rate (for all ages, genders etc) for an average seasonal flu is .25 percent.
Yes I am taking the vaccine and so is hubby and my daughter (asthmatic) who is also in the first round of folks being called for it. :D
Definitely having it..sooner the better for me.;)
The "real" vaccine?
Here are a couple of quotes from the Daily Mail Online site from August this year,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1205267/Children-given-untested-swine-flu-vaccine.html
"Pharmaceutical companies manufacturing the jabs do not have any paediatric safety data for the drugs, which could be distributed to children in the autumn."
"During the last swine flu outbreak in the US in 1976, a vaccine caused 25 deaths – more than the virus itself. Dr [Tom] Jefferson said a repeat of that ‘was possible’."
These quotes from the Daily Mail are no longer valid. They were Published on the 9th of August and are now way out of date as more than a few weeks has passed. It also says in the same article, which you negleted to quote so I will :-
"A trial for children is planned within the next month"
Since this was Published well over Two Months ago this trial should have now been completed.
You can NOT go by what someone one says about a Outbreak back in 1976 as that is 33 years ago. So to say that there could be a repeat of what happened back in 1976 is not only silly but is scaremongering.
The H1N1 Vaccine has been tested to the same extent as the Flu Vaccine which is issued each year.
I know when I am offered this Vaccine I will take the offer up without any hesitation.
George Brims
21-Oct-09, 19:35
The comparison between vaccine-caused deaths and flu deaths for that 1976 flu should be clarified. Most vaccine-caused deaths were in one military training camp, where a group of soldiers all received vaccine from a single faulty batch. The flu itself turned out to be a feeble one, both in terms of mortality rate among those who actually got it, and in terms of spread. So both numbers are exceptional.
To be honest Kodiak, I would hesitate to quote the Daily Wail any time.
I'm not gonna get the vaccine. Big thumbs down from me.
I'm not gonna get the vaccine. Big thumbs down from me.
A wise decision especially if you consider this ... " This entire scenario is ludicrous because the idea of a vaccine is impossible. Science can never beat a virus because it is constantly mutating, unlike a bacteria which remains the same. Sometimes a virus can mutate within hours; therefore, a vaccine which takes months to years to develop and test will be useless when introduced because the virus has mutated!"
George Brims
21-Oct-09, 19:57
Science can never beat a virus because it is constantly mutating, unlike a bacteria [sic] which remains the same.
So where are the deaths from smallpox which would automatically follow from that statement?
A wise decision especially if you consider this ... " This entire scenario is ludicrous because the idea of a vaccine is impossible. Science can never beat a virus because it is constantly mutating, unlike a bacteria which remains the same. Sometimes a virus can mutate within hours; therefore, a vaccine which takes months to years to develop and test will be useless when introduced because the virus has mutated!"
So according to you there is no point in any Vaccine. ERR Excuse me but what about the Small Pox Vaccine.
The fact that Small Pox is No Longer a real threat is only due to the Vaccine.
No, the only Ludicrous thing is you trying to scare people away from getting any help from the H1N1 Vaccine that it might give.
So where are the deaths from smallpox which would automatically follow from that statement?
"In Australia when a few children died as a result of smallpox vaccinations the government abolished compulsory vaccination in that country and smallpox suddenly declined to the vanishing point. Australia had only three cases of smallpox in 15 years.
Is there a vaccine for measles, aids, chicken pox, herpes? There is no vaccine for a virus.
"In Australia when a few children died as a result of smallpox vaccinations the government abolished compulsory vaccination in that country and smallpox suddenly declined to the vanishing point. Australia had only three cases of smallpox in 15 years.
Is there a vaccine for measles, aids, chicken pox, herpes? There is no vaccine for a virus.
In 1967 there were 10 million cases of smallpox in 40 countries, mostly in the developing world, but a successful vaccination campaign organised through the WHO quickly brought the epidemics under control. The last natural outbreak of the disease occurred in Somalia in 1977.
Also what about Polio. Poliomyelitis (polio) is a highly contagious and
infectious disease caused by any one of the three polio viruses.
This now has also been eradicated by a Vaccine.
So when you say there in no vaccine for a Virus this is total nonsence.
Just one more thing, there is a Vaccine for the Chicken Pox
The chickenpox vaccine is now licensed in the UK but it is not part of routine childhood vaccinations.
The vaccine against the varicella virus (which causes chickenpox) is not currently recommended for standard use in children.
In most cases it is a mild illness and around 89% of adults in the UK will develop immunity to the illness.
The chickenpox vaccine is now recommended by the Department of Health for non-immune health care workers who work in primary care and in hospitals and who have direct patient contact.
People at high risk, such as vulnerable patients in hospital, are sometimes vaccinated.
The vaccine is also sometimes given to the siblings of children with leukaemia or who have had organ transplants (and whose immune systems are not fully functioning). This is to prevent brothers and sisters passing on the virus to the sick child, who would find it hard to fight the illness.
There is also a Vaccine for Measles, Mumps and Rubella
These quotes from the Daily Mail are no longer valid. They were Published on the 9th of August and are now way out of date as more than a few weeks has passed. It also says in the same article, which you negleted (sic) to quote so I will :-
"A trial for children is planned within the next month"
Since this was Published well over Two Months ago this trial should have now been completed.
You can NOT go by what someone one says about a Outbreak back in 1976 as that is 33 years ago. So to say that there could be a repeat of what happened back in 1976 is not only silly but is scaremongering.
The H1N1 Vaccine has been tested to the same extent as the Flu Vaccine which is issued each year.
I know when I am offered this Vaccine I will take the offer up without any hesitation.
10 weeks have passed since the article: hardly enough time for proper testing at all, especially as batches of vaccine were prepared quite some time ago.
You can NOT go by what someone one says about a Outbreak back in 1976 as that is 33 years ago. So to say that there could be a repeat of what happened back in 1976 is not only silly but is scaremongering.
Who are you accusing of scaremongering? The person I quoted, I suppose?
There is no vaccine for a virus.[/I] Huh? I may be wrong but most of he vaccines we have are for viruses.
So when you say there in no vaccine for a Virus this is total nonsence.
Such diseases are eradicated primarily by better hygiene and by a diet which strengthens the immune system, not by vaccination. In my haste to reply, I used an incorrect phrase, as you pointed out.
Perhaps you would care to list for us some of the ingredients in the then (and probably still) untested H1N1 vaccine, please?
Such diseases are eradicated primarily by better hygiene and by a diet which strengthens the immune system, not by vaccination.
Can you reference this statement for me please ?
Can you reference this statement for me please ?
Certainly -
http://chetday.com/naturalhygienesmallpox.htm
Certainly -
http://chetday.com/naturalhygienesmallpox.htm
Do you have any other references ... I clicked on your link and a pop up from the author offering a cure from outer space leaves me a bit sceptical.
Having said that diet and a healthy lifestyle has helped all of us to live longer and survive diseases that would have killed earlier generations that does not mean that vaccines have not played a very important roll.
ShelleyCowie
21-Oct-09, 21:02
Such diseases are eradicated primarily by better hygiene and by a diet which strengthens the immune system, not by vaccination.
Thats poppy-noodle! I have an improvised immune system, no diet or any amount of hygiene has ever helped! Yes i am hygenic. Im an obsessive hand washer too. Diet is not that bad, im a woman so like my chocolate once in a while or whatever.
But on the other hand no vaccine has ever helped either. Maybe thats me as an individual but you cant back up both with FACT. Because i am fact sittin right here typind.
Do you have any other references ... I clicked on your link and a pop up from the author offering a cure from outer space leaves me a bit sceptical.
You only have cause for concern over what is written in the article, not from any pop up. When you have taken the time to read the article, then let me know what you agree with in it and what you disagree with, such that we can debate those points (with more references, as appropriate).
:)
Certainly -
http://chetday.com/naturalhygienesmallpox.htm
Im afraid the reference you have given is not an authenticated reference accepted in evidence proven medical community.
In simple terms it means the claims made are just claims, without any scientific proof. It is a hypothesis which they are trying to prove. Im afraid to prove a hypothesis true you need to back it up with proper scientific proven evidence.
Any new kid on the block of medical research will tear your given reference apart. :)
You only have cause for concern over what is written in the article, not from any pop up. When you have taken the time to read the article, then let me know what you agree with in it and what you disagree with, such that we can debate those points (with more references, as appropriate).
:)
I have commented on the benefits of a healthy lifestyle, which I agree with. The pop up I refer to is from the creator of the site and reflects the beliefs of the owner which you are buying into when you read the article as well.
The author is a chiropractor is hardly an expert on Viruses and infectious diseases. No references to many if not all of her claims that more people were killed by the virus than got small pox.
To I think better sanitation and a healthier lifestyle are helping us live longer? Yes. Do I think many more people would survive the serious disease of the past if they were alive today - yes. Do I think vaccines play an important roll in that whole process? Yes.
Other than that the article does not really substantiate its statements so isn't really worth commenting on beyond what I have already done I'm afraid.
ShelleyCowie
21-Oct-09, 21:19
Im afraid the reference you have given is not an authenticated reference accepted in evidence proven medical community.
In simple terms it means the claims made are just claims, without any scientific proof. It is a hypothesis which they are trying to prove. Im afraid to prove a hypothesis true you need to back it up with proper scientific proven evidence.
Any new kid on the block of medical research will tear your given reference apart. :)
Sock it to em doc! ;)
George Brims
21-Oct-09, 22:14
That Chet Day web site is utter quackery. The ludicrous statement at the bottom of the page that she "was the first person to make the public aware of the dangers of ionizing radiation through the many articles she authored on this subject" pretty much sums it up. I'm sure the late Prof Marie Curie, who died decades before from the effects of ionizing radiation, would have something to say about that claim. The whole page is complete hogwash.
Im afraid the reference you have given is not an authenticated reference accepted in evidence proven medical community.
In simple terms it means the claims made are just claims, without any scientific proof. It is a hypothesis which they are trying to prove. Im afraid to prove a hypothesis true you need to back it up with proper scientific proven evidence.
Any new kid on the block of medical research will tear your given reference apart. :)
Well of course they will, in your opinion. You see, to get anywhere in the medical profession, one has to tow the line. Medical "research" is funded by the same people who own the "research journals" - international pharmaceutical companies - the same people who create the vaccines, the drugs and ... the bugs in the first place.
Our other contributor has not listed the components of the H1N1 vaccine being advocated for pregnant women, so perhaps you would care to list them instead?
Each ingredient and its source, please.
George Brims
21-Oct-09, 22:23
Medical "research" is funded by the same people who own the "research journals" - international pharmaceutical companies -
BZZZZT! Wrong. The medical journals are owned by publishers or by professional associations.
...the same people who create the vaccines, the drugs and ... the bugs in the first place.
Now you're displaying symptoms of paranoia. You really think the pharma companies *create* diseases? When we're up to our neck in diseases provided by Mother Nature in the first place? Big Pharma has many crimes of both omission and commission to answer for, but that's not one of them.
Don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist or anything, but this virus was always about, just not in such a media hyped up form.
This is quite a convenient way for the credit crunch to dissapear out the news with all the hype over swine flu eh? ;)
Cedric Farthsbottom III
21-Oct-09, 22:38
Swine flu exists,its not a conspiracy.It has nothing to do with governments,scientists,laser screwdrivers.If ye fear diseases then pick up yer medical dictionary and see how many ye think ye have.If ye don't then live life to the full.:)
BZZZZT! Wrong. The medical journals are owned by publishers or by professional associations.
"Elsevier, the world's largest publisher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publisher) of medical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical) and scientific literature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_literature)"
"Elsevier has been accused of offering Amazon gift certificates to academics who would write positive reviews at Amazon.com (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon.com) and Barnes & Noble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnes_%26_Noble) of their textbook [I]Clinical Psychology. The company admitted that it had been a mistake and blamed a 'rogue employee' for this practice." (Reference Wikipedia.)
It was also involved in the international arms trade. Not a very "professional" association.
As for who owns the pharmaceutical companies and who owns the publishing houses, they are usually one and the same.
George Brims
21-Oct-09, 23:12
I said publishers OR medical associations. I didn't say they were the same. You still haven't shown me a medical journal owned by a pharma company. If there was one, it would not attract proper peer-reviewed research.
I said publishers OR medical associations. I didn't say they were the same. You still haven't shown me a medical journal owned by a pharma company. If there was one, it would not attract proper peer-reviewed research.
If the pharma company and the publishing house are owned by the same group, this amounts to the same thing, because it is easy for the parent-child relationship in business to be reversed. With the case of Robert Maxwell, for instance, there were loads of companies owned by the same family, but as regards which came first, the chicken or the egg, then who knows?
Talking of "proper, peer-reviewed research," the following is a small quote from
http://birdflu666.wordpress.com/2009/07/17/baxter-scientists-who-patented-baxters-h1n1-swine-flu-vaccine-in-august-2008-have-shares-in-baxter-and-stand-to-profit-directly-from-recommending-baxter-h1n1-flu-jab-to-who/
"It was Baxter executives, along with their counterparts in Novartis, GSK and Sanofi, who participated in the vaccine advisory group meeting of WHO on July 7th that recommended H1N1 vaccines for the world’s population.
"These H1N1 vaccines were developed by Baxter scientists based in Austria who also have shares in Baxter, and so stand to make a direct profit from the demand created by WHO’s instructions to governments to vaccinate all their populations against the H1N1.
"Aso, Baxter’s Austrian-based science team led by Otfried Kistner filed the provisional application for the H1N1 vaccine in August 2007, reports CLG, almost two years before the HIN1 virus appeared in April and which the Paris based World Organization for Animal Health reported had never been seen before.
"The fact that the virus had never been seen before in animal or human strongly suggests the notion that Baxter was instrumental in biosprospecting for and bioengineering the virus in the first place."
:eek:
purplelady
21-Oct-09, 23:38
Am going for my yearly flu jab next thurs am going to speak to the nurse about the other one while am there i do think i will have it and so will my son unless any real edvince ( excuse spelling } lol comes to lite to say it is not safe to have
Don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist or anything, but this virus was always about, just not in such a media hyped up form.
This is quite a convenient way for the credit crunch to dissapear out the news with all the hype over swine flu eh? ;)
Yep, that's just one aspect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_CdX-ZtdIw
Cedric Farthsbottom III
21-Oct-09, 23:51
Always laugh at medical threads.Especially when it has to do with choices.Dae ye do it or don't ye.Oh the plonders.Reminds me of the wee guy who wrote into Dear Deirdre in the Sun:
Dear Deirdrie
My problem is that my mother and father decided to take off the covering off ma bobby,I think the professionals call it circumsicion.My problem is now,I want it back.
Dae what ye want take it or leave it.Swine flu?I have more problems wi ma piles.:lol:
Well of course they will, in your opinion. You see, to get anywhere in the medical profession, one has to tow the line. Medical "research" is funded by the same people who own the "research journals" - international pharmaceutical companies - the same people who create the vaccines, the drugs and ... the bugs in the first place.
Our other contributor has not listed the components of the H1N1 vaccine being advocated for pregnant women, so perhaps you would care to list them instead?
Each ingredient and its source, please.
The listing of the components H1N1 and ingredient of the vaccine are NOT important. It is a well known fact that invitro (Laboratory based) trials sometimes give different results in vivo (like in human beings)
The matter of fact is H1N1 is a influenza virus (with different anti genicity).
It is like any other influenza virus, the only difference is it affects more often the younger folk and people with pre existing medical conditions including the pregnant women.The vaccine gives some protection against the virus. It has few side effects.It is up to a person ( with pre existing medical conditions) to take the vaccine and accept few side effects or be at MORE risk of developing a full blown disease with its resulting COMPLICATIONS which could result in death. In simple words they have to decide between two evils. I would argue for the least evil.If an individual does not wish the vaccine its their own informed choice.
On your other mention of medical journals and pharmaceutical industry,I beg to differ.There are journals fully funded, supported by pharmaceutical industry.In medical world they are not taken seriously. There are pure medical journals ( not relying on pharmaceutical support ) publish high quality, original and evidence proved research work. It is scrutinised by the medical profession
and before it is recommended in the form of treatment,it has to pass many hurdles.
There is no such thing as 'perfection' in human life and the world we live in. The safest approach is to weigh benefits and risks of a situation.
I would like to put forward a question to you.
I do not wish and hope it does not happen to you. If it happens you have a heart attack , would you go to a hospital for treatment ( where doctors would use stuff produced by pharmaceutical companies ) or would you get in touch with your natural healing practitioner ( who does not use pharmaceutical stuff ) but uses the best hygiene.
The things in life,when it comes to health,are not as black and white.
The medicine is an 'art' of delivering 'science'. :)
The listing of the components H1N1 and ingredient of the vaccine are NOT important. It is a well known fact that invitro (Laboratory based) trials sometimes give different results in vivo (like in human beings)
Of course they are important for some reason, otherwise there would be no need for them at all. You are trying to obscure things a little with talk about differences in behaviour between living tissue as opposed to non living tissue. This was not the issue or the question.
What are the constituents of the H1N1 vaccine that you are recommending be injected into pregnant women and thus, consequentially, into the unborn child?
... take the vaccine and accept few side effects or be at MORE risk of developing a full blown disease with its resulting COMPLICATIONS which could result in death. In simple words they have to decide between two evils. I would argue for the least evil.If an individual does not wish the vaccine its their own informed choice.
Okay, but the vaccine can also result in death, can it not?
There are pure medical journals ( not relying on pharmaceutical support ) publish high quality, original and evidence proved research work. It is scrutinised by the medical profession and before it is recommended in the form of treatment,it has to pass many hurdles.
As the reseach of Dr. Andrew Wakefield and team did with MMR = risk of autism, as published in the Lancet.
There is no such thing as 'perfection' in human life and the world we live in. The safest approach is to weigh benefits and risks of a situation.
Agreed.
I would like to put forward a question to you.
I do not wish and hope it does not happen to you. If it happens you have a heart attack , would you go to a hospital for treatment ( where doctors would use stuff produced by pharmaceutical companies ) or would you get in touch with your natural healing practitioner ( who does not use pharmaceutical stuff ) but uses the best hygiene.
The things in life,when it comes to health,are not as black and white.
The medicine is an 'art' of delivering 'science'. :)
Agreed. And in answer to your question, I would use the facilities available, but ... and this is a big but, if there was a vaccine available with the sort of things in it that H1N1 has in it, but against heart disease, I would NOT take it. My assessment of the risk would lead me to refuse such a vaccine.
With best wishes.
I had the flu jab a few weeks ago, as usual, but i did not feel it gave me much protection. Now i'm not so sure about having the HINI jab.although i had planned to have it.
Margaret M.
22-Oct-09, 04:00
The comparison between vaccine-caused deaths and flu deaths for that 1976 flu should be clarified. Most vaccine-caused deaths were in one military training camp, where a group of soldiers all received vaccine from a single faulty batch.
Hmm, the one death caused by the swine flu in 1976 was on the Fort Dix army base but the vaccine related deaths were not, as far as I can tell. After hundreds of people developed Guillain-Barre syndrome and there were 25 related deaths, the vaccination plan was scrapped.
You still haven't shown me a medical journal owned by a pharma company. If there was one, it would not attract proper peer-reviewed research.
According to articles in the British Medical Journal, they don’t need to own them to get what they want:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/326/7400/1202
An excerpt: In one sense, all journals are bought—or at least cleverly used—by the pharmaceutical industry. The industry dominates health care, and most doctors have been wined and dined by it. It's not surprising, therefore, that medical journals too should be heavily influenced by industry. But health care, doctors, journals, and—I believe—the pharmaceutical industry would all benefit from relationships being less grubby and kept more at arm's length and businesslike.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/332/7555/1444
Without drug advertising, journals are economically vulnerable. Only two general medical journals have stopped advertising drugs, and one of these had to stop publication a little more than three years after doing so.
Companies may refuse to advertise in journals that publish articles that are critical of the drugs industry. In 1992, the Annals of Internal Medicine published an article that critically examined the scientific accuracy of advertisements for drugs in 10 leading medical journals. Reviewers (doctors and pharmacists) judged that 34% should have been revised before publication, and 28% should not have been published. After publication of this article, the decrease in drug advertisements in the Annals was greater than in four leading general medical journals. The journal lost an estimated $1-1.5 million in advertising revenue by publishing the study. The editor said, "The episode revealed the true colours of the pharmaceutical industry, which was willing to flex its considerable muscles when it felt its interests were threatened." The potential effects of articles on advertising revenue may consciously or subconsciously affect editors' decisions about publication or may influence which authors are asked to contribute.
Comment from Dr. John McDougall: Doctors, like me, rely on the medical journal research articles to guide us to properly prescribe medications for our patients. Unfortunately, most of this research is, pure and simple, advertisements for the pharmaceutical companies—the patient be damned. In my younger years I was confused by looking over medical publications, like the Journal of the American Medical Association, and finding pages of colorful expensive advertisements clustered in the beginning and at the end of the magazine, with the scientific papers in the middle section. I thought, “How stupid, who would waste their time looking at these beginning and end advertisements.” I was the dim-witted one. I failed to realize that the real advertisements were in the middle—the research papers paid for by the pharmaceutical companies were the real advertisements.
Pharmaceutical influence includes establishing official sounding educational programs and guidelines for doctors to follow. In this PLOS Medicine article the authors discussed the National Cholesterol Education Program, which published the Adult Treatment Panel III guidelines. “To achieve the goals in the guideline, millions of Americans would need to be placed on cholesterol-lowering medication in higher doses and for a longer period, thereby increasing the number of prescriptions for statin drugs. Eight of the nine members of the National Cholesterol Education Program panel had financial ties with pharmaceutical companies that manufactured statin drugs.”
Margaret M.
22-Oct-09, 04:13
However you will be just fine with the real H1N1 vaccine, which has been tested just like the flu vaccine every year. Many credible sources have major concerns about the safety of this vaccine and the lack of thorough testing. I have a friend who is a doctor/specialist with the University of Pittsburgh. He was a member of the Pandemic Committee, he and many others contend that we will not know if this vaccine is safe until 3-5 years from now. Health Care Workers in New York rallied against the swine flu vaccine being mandatory – they had concerns about the lack of testing.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/339/oct21_2/b4335
The following excerpts are from a report in today’s edition of the British Medical Journal:
Headline: Only 12% of Germans say they will have H1N1 vaccine after row blows up over safety of adjuvants
Michael Kochen, president of the German College of General Practitioners and Family Physicians, told the BMJ that Pandemrix has not been sufficiently tested to be declared safe for millions of people, especially small children and pregnant women. His main concern is the adjuvant.
He will not take the vaccine himself and has advised doctors in the association not to give it to patients, saying that the potential risks outweigh the benefits. He described the 50 million doses for Germany as "a large scale experiment on the German population."
Wolf-Dieter Ludwig, chairman of the German Medical Association’s drug commission, has described the whole swine flu vaccination programme as a scandal and was quoted widely in the German press: "The health authorities have succumbed to a campaign by the pharma companies, which simply want to earn money from a supposed threat."
In an interview with the BMJ, Dr Ludwig confirmed that he had made the statement. He said that he thinks the German government was too compliant to the demands of GlaxoSmithKline for buying 50 million doses, which cost at least 600m Euros (£550m; $900m), a price that he says was too high. He also said that the government should not have agreed to carry legal risk in the event of lawsuits by patients experiencing any negative side effects from the vaccine. "I think this is not fair," he said. "The pharma companies should be responsible for the risk."
Dr Ludwig still thinks that Pandemrix has not been adequately tested. However, he also believes that Celvapan has not been sufficiently tested.
Wolfgang Wodarg, a doctor and a member of the Bundestag, is also concerned about the safety of swine flu vaccines. "The clinical trials have not been sufficient for us to vaccinate millions of people," he told the BMJ, adding that governments have created a lot of unnecessary panic. He said that he thinks the World Health Organization "carries a lot of the burden for this."
...
Comment from Dr. John McDougall: Doctors, like me, rely on the medical journal research articles to guide us to properly prescribe medications for our patients. Unfortunately, most of this research is, pure and simple, advertisements for the pharmaceutical companies—the patient be damned. In my younger years I was confused by looking over medical publications, like the Journal of the American Medical Association, and finding pages of colorful expensive advertisements clustered in the beginning and at the end of the magazine, with the scientific papers in the middle section. I thought, “How stupid, who would waste their time looking at these beginning and end advertisements.” I was the dim-witted one. I failed to realize that the real advertisements were in the middle—the research papers paid for by the pharmaceutical companies were the real advertisements.”
I think that this statement from Dr. John McDougall is very succinct. Well done for making us all aware of it.
People should be given such information, in order for them to reason for themselves, rather than replying upon a mainstream media which is basically a government propaganda weapon serving the same group that owns the big pharmaceutical companies and the publishing houses, etc.
tonkatojo
22-Oct-09, 13:46
I think the general public including myself do not read all this bumff that is being spouted on here, from America all over Europe or awards from here there and every where do not mean a thing to me nor all these fancy names of professionals that to me don't sing from the same hymn sheet whether it be drug company's or whatever.
I am sure the advice I will take will come from my GP or NHS official and from no one else.
Margaret M.
22-Oct-09, 15:34
I think the general public including myself do not read all this bumff that is being spouted on here, from America all over Europe or awards from here there and every where do not mean a thing to me nor all these fancy names of professionals that to me don't sing from the same hymn sheet whether it be drug company's or whatever.
All the information from America and all over Europe pertains to Caithness. The same pharmaceutical companies make the vaccine for worldwide distribution.
I am sure the advice I will take will come from my GP or NHS official and from no one else.Ah, but guess where some of the advice will be coming from indirectly? Yep, the pharmaceutical companies. I understand that not everyone has an interest in doing their own research so they have no choice but to let their GPs make the decisions for them.
Alice in Blunderland
22-Oct-09, 15:47
I understand that not everyone has an interest in doing their own research so they have no choice but to let their GPs make the decisions for them.
That is the same family GPs they trust on all other occassions.
If you trust them then you can trust them now.................. yes...no ?
tonkatojo
22-Oct-09, 17:35
All the information from America and all over Europe pertains to Caithness. The same pharmaceutical companies make the vaccine for worldwide distribution.
Ah, but guess where some of the advice will be coming from indirectly? Yep, the pharmaceutical companies. I understand that not everyone has an interest in doing their own research so they have no choice but to let their GPs make the decisions for them.
Each unto their own, and I know mine, as I'm sure you know yours. ;)
I think the general public including myself do not read all this bumff that is being spouted on here, ...
If you haven't read this "bumff," then of what value is your reply?
Alice in Blunderland
23-Oct-09, 03:37
If you haven't read this "bumff," then of what value is your reply?
The same as everyone else's reply............:confused
tonkatojo
23-Oct-09, 10:43
If you haven't read this "bumff," then of what value is your reply?
No I have read some of it, but when it contains references from here there and every where and so called facts and figures that you would have to be Einstein to understand, for an normally educated bloke (not super dooper as some make out) it is bumff. Hence my GP or NHS health official's advice will do me.
No I have read some of it, but when it contains references from here there and every where and so called facts and figures that you would have to be Einstein to understand, for an normally educated bloke (not super dooper as some make out) it is bumff. Hence my GP or NHS health official's advice will do me.
Okay, it's just your previous comment was that you had not read any of it.
tonkatojo
23-Oct-09, 22:15
Okay, it's just your previous comment was that you had not read any of it.
No I think if you read it I said "I don't read all this bumff" as in every word. ;)
butterfly
23-Oct-09, 22:23
That is the same family GPs they trust on all other occassions.
If you trust them then you can trust them now.................. yes...no ?
Yes. You are absolutely right Alice.
No I think if you read it I said "I don't read all this bumff" as in every word. ;)
You are playing with words; the implication of your post was that you were not reading lengthy, detailed posts which contradicted your preconceived resolve to listen to an NHS employee.
Listen to them and take their advice by all means; that is your right, but if you have not read the articles against the vaccination, then you could not know whether these articles were "bumff" or not.
But let us not digress from the issue under discussion.
roadbowler
24-Oct-09, 22:45
what happened to scarlet fever? DOCTOR? Some here need to read up on polio and smallpox. Does anybody ever stop and ask themselves why nicola sturgeon is a mouthpiece purporting to have medical knowledge "urging" and "recommending" people take an UNTESTED vaccine. She is a lawyer and a politician. Aye, i'm shouting untested. If anyone actually thinks a few months of testing satisfies the criteria for a tested medicine of any kind needs to wake up. Especially for a vaccine containing toxins which they plan to vaccinate every living soul with, you are off yer rockers. Stavro is getting pelted for recommending diet. Here is problem numero uno. Who here is on a good diet and what are you eating? I would be interested to hear what peoples idea of a good diet is? Food is medicine. Problem is most people think processed food is well, even real food. Any ideas how much sugar is added to processed food? People nowadays live on over 50% processed food. Know what refined sugar does to your immune system? DOCTOR should be able to tell you if you aren't sure. Perhaps he could also explain why aside from the toxins they are so keen to inject foreign animal proteins into the bloodstream when they know full well that what manifests in the body afterwards is an alphabet of autoimmune diseases. Yes, everybody got to make their own decisions but, please make informed decisions!
tonkatojo
24-Oct-09, 22:58
It has supposed to have been available since wed, has any one actually been inoculated yet or been offered it ??. Please say if you are a NHS worker or a member of the public, Thanks just my curiosity.
Alice in Blunderland
24-Oct-09, 23:16
Know what refined sugar does to your immune system?
Erm at a guess diddly squat as my mum would say..................nothing! ;)
highlander
24-Oct-09, 23:26
I have been reading this thread with people giving the pro's and con's about the vaccine, we have been told its been tested but then again there has been vaccines in the past that was given out and people were assured it was safe but have had to face lifelong consequences.
Being one of the people who will be called up first it is a very scary thought, do i take this flu jab and have some proctection against swine flu or do i refuse it and if i do catch the swine flu ending up back in hospital fighting for my life, by all means give us the true information about consequences by getting the jab, but please STOP urging us NOT to take it, this is a hard enough decision, there maybe people out there who is reading this thread and have decided not to have the injection will you be the first one to chap at thier familys door to give your sympathy as it may have been the wrong one.
tonkatojo
24-Oct-09, 23:34
what happened to scarlet fever? DOCTOR? Some here need to read up on polio and smallpox. Does anybody ever stop and ask themselves why nicola sturgeon is a mouthpiece purporting to have medical knowledge "urging" and "recommending" people take an UNTESTED vaccine. She is a lawyer and a politician. Aye, i'm shouting untested. If anyone actually thinks a few months of testing satisfies the criteria for a tested medicine of any kind needs to wake up. Especially for a vaccine containing toxins which they plan to vaccinate every living soul with, you are off yer rockers. Stavro is getting pelted for recommending diet. Here is problem numero uno. Who here is on a good diet and what are you eating? I would be interested to hear what peoples idea of a good diet is? Food is medicine. Problem is most people think processed food is well, even real food. Any ideas how much sugar is added to processed food? People nowadays live on over 50% processed food. Know what refined sugar does to your immune system? DOCTOR should be able to tell you if you aren't sure. Perhaps he could also explain why aside from the toxins they are so keen to inject foreign animal proteins into the bloodstream when they know full well that what manifests in the body afterwards is an alphabet of autoimmune diseases. Yes, everybody got to make their own decisions but, please make informed decisions!
I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I am not the bluntest neither, but I can't make head nor tail of these bits of advice from here there and everywhere, what's refined sugar got to do with swine flu inoculations,would brown be OK or just plain Demerara, light brown,soft or would caster sugar be OK. I don't want to sound flippant but surely we have been using sugar for decades without notable problems. I suppose butter has been demonised along with numerous other every day foods at some time or the other , then the so called scientists change their minds and they are OK in the next year or so. :confused :confused
I have had flu type viruses twice in the last few months and been floored by them, I take a risk in everything I do every day it doesn't stop me from living my life.... I cross the road I could be run over etc.
I was unsure about this vaccine but if I caught swine flu and in the early stages gave it to a child in my care I could never forgive myself, so for their sakes as much as my own I will be getting vaccinated.
Alice in Blunderland
24-Oct-09, 23:35
]but then again there has been vaccines in the past that was given out and people were assured it was safe but have had to face lifelong consequences.
This is true, but I would say medicine is continually advancing and getting better and better over the years. Folks are surviving illnesses and conditions now that in the past they were dying from ( yes better hygiene has also been a benefit ). Its continually improving.
I would trust the advice of your family GP. Is this not the person you would go to for all other medical matters.:)
I have been reading this thread with people giving the pro's and con's about the vaccine, we have been told its been tested but then again there has been vaccines in the past that was given out and people were assured it was safe but have had to face lifelong consequences.
Being one of the people who will be called up first it is a very scary thought, do i take this flu jab and have some proctection against swine flu or do i refuse it and if i do catch the swine flu ending up back in hospital fighting for my life, by all means give us the true information about consequences by getting the jab, but please STOP urging us NOT to take it, this is a hard enough decision, there maybe people out there who is reading this thread and have decided not to have the injection will you be the first one to chap at thier familys door to give your sympathy as it may have been the wrong one.
From the data that I have seen, this "swine 'flu" is proving less serious than ordinary, seasonal 'flu.
The problem is not only the fact that the vaccine is insufficiently tested, but also that many ingredients are dangerous to the body. DOCTOR stated that the ingredients were "NOT important," but did not come back and list them for us, such that we could debate the effects that some of these ingredients are likely to have.
It has been stated over and over again on this thread and the sister thread that whether you have the vaccination or not is your choice (or your parents' choice if you are under the age of consent). If the strong reservations of some of us on here make you think that we are URGING you not to have it by somehow holding a gun to your head, and are thus in some way "responsible" for the decision that you make, then you are mistaken.
Advice is simply advice, whether for or against. Consider the pros and cons and then make your OWN decision.
I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I am not the bluntest neither, but I can't make head nor tail of these bits of advice from here there and everywhere, what's refined sugar got to do with swine flu inoculations,would brown be OK or just plain Demerara, light brown,soft or would caster sugar be OK. I don't want to sound flippant but surely we have been using sugar for decades without notable problems. I suppose butter has been demonised along with numerous other every day foods at some time or the other , then the so called scientists change their minds and they are OK in the next year or so. :confused :confused
You have not understood roadbowler's post.
highlander
24-Oct-09, 23:44
So true alice, go to your doctors to talk over your worries, i will be taking the jab but then again that is my own decision.
roadbowler
24-Oct-09, 23:46
Erm at a guess diddly squat as my mum would say..................nothing! ;)
i'll give you a 2nd guess if ye like?;)
tonkatojo
24-Oct-09, 23:48
You have not understood roadbowler's post.
As I said, to much input for me, as are all these other scientific or so called scientific remarks/quotes. :(
Alice in Blunderland
24-Oct-09, 23:49
i'll give you a 2nd guess if ye like?;)
Nah I feel quite confident with my first guess thanks :D
roadbowler
25-Oct-09, 00:07
tonka, so far in sweden, where the jab has been offered for just over a week... They have more deaths from swine flu vaccine than swine flu itself. Nevermind all the sick nurses there. On the subject of butter... Well, all these healthy margerines have been found to cause skin cancer, malignant melonomas. Trans fats. Do you honestly think there is a substance on the planet that does not affect your body when ingested or injected??:eek:
tonkatojo
25-Oct-09, 00:11
tonka, so far in sweden, where the jab has been offered for just over a week... They have more deaths from swine flu vaccine than swine flu itself. Nevermind all the sick nurses there. On the subject of butter... Well, all these healthy margerines have been found to cause skin cancer, malignant melonomas. Trans fats. Do you honestly think there is a substance on the planet that does not affect your body when ingested or injected??:eek:
What is your alternative ??, starve, take no notice of medical advances, or what.
roadbowler
25-Oct-09, 00:23
Do enlighten me on the medical advances in vaccine science please. Alternative is eat healthy food, exercise, get PLENTY of sun or at least supplement with d3 or even with alfalfa sprouts or nettle tea or greens during winter especially and try your hardest not to inject heavy metals, squalene and foreign animal proteins into the bloodstream. Stick to all natural products whether it be food, cosmetics or medicines.
roadbowler
25-Oct-09, 00:37
alice, these sugars shut down your immune system.
tonkatojo
25-Oct-09, 00:38
Do enlighten me on the medical advances in vaccine science please. Alternative is eat healthy food, exercise, get PLENTY of sun or at least supplement with d3 or even with alfalfa sprouts or nettle tea or greens during winter especially and try your hardest not to inject heavy metals, squalene and foreign animal proteins into the bloodstream. Stick to all natural products whether it be food, cosmetics or medicines.
Steady on, are you asking plain old me to enlighten you, there are plenty on here who profess to be qualified to tell you, but not me , I take my advice from my GP or health officials. And the food I ingest is wholesome and food that has been served to my parents and probably theirs without too many problems.
What is "alfalfa sprouts" ??.
Did I not read an article lately that says vitamin supplements could do more harm than good when not prescribed by your GP ??. as you should get all you need from a balanced diet.
Just noticed what's "squalene", I am an ex motor mechanic come fisherman not a bio chemist.
roadbowler
25-Oct-09, 00:52
you are the one applauding medical advances, not me. And yes, plenty of articles to convince you we need experts to tell us what to put in our bodies and tell us how to run our lives. These articles are ONLY to drum up support for Codex Alimentarius. Geez, how did humans get this far?? Tonka, are you really saying you would take a vaccine containing squalene when you dinna ken what it is?
Alice in Blunderland
25-Oct-09, 00:54
Just noticed what's "squalene", I am an ex motor mechanic come fisherman not a bio chemist.
http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/
Alice in Blunderland
25-Oct-09, 00:56
Geez, how did humans get this far??
Geeez I dinna ken................http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:HSFybUyTP7UdaM:http://yecheadquarters.org/images/ape-man-line-up1.gif
Evolution........progress maybe. ;)
tonkatojo
25-Oct-09, 01:01
you are the one applauding medical advances, not me. And yes, plenty of articles to convince you we need experts to tell us what to put in our bodies and tell us how to run our lives. These articles are ONLY to drum up support for Codex Alimentarius. Geez, how did humans get this far?? Tonka, are you really saying you would take a vaccine containing squalene when you dinna ken what it is?
Yep, you got, if my GP says it's OK that's good enough for me, but each unto their own.
Do you not realise a lot of ordinary folk just can't comprehend these scientific terms which you appear to or profess to know( I have no way of knowing ) hence my GP is the one I trust.
Going off what you say about food, I wonder how you have gotten this far, believing its right only to be proven its wrong at the drop of a scientists word, as has happened in the past with food advice.
tonkatojo
25-Oct-09, 01:03
http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/
Having read some of this link, just what is the supposed problem Roadbowler ??.
roadbowler
25-Oct-09, 01:04
aye, so much progress most people understand more about computers than their own bodies.
tonkatojo
25-Oct-09, 01:09
aye, so much progress most people understand more about computers than their own bodies.
Your right there, I built this one I'm using and the previous three, its not rocket science or bio science, simply putting components together with software.
Alice in Blunderland
25-Oct-09, 01:10
aye, so much progress most people understand more about computers than their own bodies.
And some dont know much about either but are willing to trust the people who have trained for many years in the subject of medicine.:D
Otherwise we may as well just google the symptons self diagnose it and buy the drugs or vegetables on the net. ;) Save all the bother of visiting the GP.
roadbowler
25-Oct-09, 01:12
if you want to ken about squalene google it for yourself. I'm on a moby phone here and cannot copy and paste. Tonka, if you've been a motor mechanic, you prolly ken more about motors than i do about the human body. Nothing more scientific than motor mechanics, just different machine!
roadbowler
25-Oct-09, 01:19
And some dont know much about either but are willing to trust the people who have trained for many years in the subject of medicine.:D
Otherwise we may as well just google the symptons self diagnose it and buy the drugs or vegetables on the net. ;) Save all the bother of visiting the GP.
buy the veggies and skip the drugs. i mind when my grannie used to contemplate for an hour qhether she should take a parecetamol or not for a blinding migraine. say NO to drugs!;)
tonkatojo
25-Oct-09, 01:20
if you want to ken about squalene google it for yourself. I'm on a moby phone here and cannot copy and paste. Tonka, if you've been a motor mechanic, you prolly ken more about motors than i do about the human body. Nothing more scientific than motor mechanics, just different machine!
Its been 20 year or so since I put down my tools I have forgotten more than I know now and mechanics has advanced terrifically since then, hence I don't try and diagnose other peoples car/mechanical faults, now.:(
Alice in Blunderland
25-Oct-09, 01:23
buy the veggies and skip the drugs. i mind when my grannie used to contemplate for an hour qhether she should take a parecetamol or not for a blinding migraine. say NO to drugs!;)
I for one can state my mum would not be alive today without her daily dose of drugs. Her carrots and turnip she can miss for a few days but her drugs nope they keep her going.
:D
tonkatojo
25-Oct-09, 01:34
I for one can state my mum would not be alive today without her daily dose of drugs. Her carrots and turnip she can miss for a few days but her drugs nope they keep her going.
:D
That's me as well, but I don't miss out as much food as I should, that's why I am as fat LOL, but reasonably happy.
roadbowler
25-Oct-09, 01:35
look, really all i'm saying here is we have a JOB to protect ourselves and protect our children. We still have intuition lurking i hope. Intuition is now clouded by media and in a capitalist society people just plain trying to sell us something. Do what YOU sense is right and for the right reasons. Good luck in these next months folks and slàinte!;)
tonkatojo
25-Oct-09, 01:40
look, really all i'm saying here is we have a JOB to protect ourselves and protect our children. We still have intuition lurking i hope. Intuition is now clouded by media and in a capitalist society people just plain trying to sell us something. Do what YOU sense is right and for the right reasons. Good luck in these next months folks and slàinte!;)
Aye that's what I have been saying with my GP's advice, because me personally am not clever enough or qualified to make these technical judgements. But good luck in your decisions, no offence taken or meant. :)
roadbowler
25-Oct-09, 01:47
no offence taken or meant. :)
aye, ditto!:D
tonkatojo
25-Oct-09, 11:11
aye, ditto!:D
Not another "ghost" fan. ;) ;)
highlander
25-Oct-09, 14:41
tonka, so far in sweden, where the jab has been offered for just over a week... They have more deaths from swine flu vaccine than swine flu itself. Nevermind all the sick nurses there. On the subject of butter... Well, all these healthy margerines have been found to cause skin cancer, malignant melonomas. Trans fats. Do you honestly think there is a substance on the planet that does not affect your body when ingested or injected??:eek:
you say "they have more deaths from swine flu vaccines than the swine flu itself" where has this been written can you put the link up so we can read it.
For all those shouting and asking for a List of the ingredients of the Swine Flue (H1N1) Vaccine, here is the List :-
Active ingredients: -
Purified, inactivated virus fragments from influenza type: -
Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 influenza virus strain, 15 micrograms (0.5 mL dose) It contains thiomersal as a preservative in the multi-dose vial.
Other ingredients: -
Sodium chloride
Sodium phosphate – monobasic
Sodium phosphate – dibasic anhydrous
Potassium chloride
Potassium phosphate – monobasic
Calcium chloride
The vaccine may also contain trace amounts of egg proteins, neomycin, polymyxin, sucrose and detergent (sodium taurodeoxycholate). The vaccine does not contain lactose, gluten, tartrazine or any azo dyes.
Now you all know what is in the Vaccine perhaps this will help you decide. Also do not believe what some people are saying or claiming on this thread as some people are making statements as though they are fact but giving no evidence to back up these claims. One more thing quoting a web page is not evidence as for every web page that gives correct information there are thousands that are completely bogus.
If in doubt about this particular Vaccine ask a Professional, that means at least one Registered Doctor and not people here on the org who have no qualifications at all.
Alternative is eat healthy food, exercise, get PLENTY of sun or at least supplement with d3 or even with alfalfa sprouts or nettle tea or greens during winter especially and try your hardest not to inject heavy metals, squalene and foreign animal proteins into the bloodstream. Stick to all natural products whether it be food, cosmetics or medicines.
Alfalfa is a great idea as it helps the body fight off infection, also taking daily Vitamin C plus a vegetarian diet, is the best fuel for building up a healthy immune system. :)
For all those shouting and asking for a List of the ingredients of the Swine Flue (H1N1) Vaccine, here is the List :-
Active ingredients: -
Purified, inactivated virus fragments from influenza type: -
Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 influenza virus strain, 15 micrograms (0.5 mL dose) It contains thiomersal as a preservative in the multi-dose vial.
Other ingredients: -
Sodium chloride
Sodium phosphate – monobasic
Sodium phosphate – dibasic anhydrous
Potassium chloride
Potassium phosphate – monobasic
Calcium chloride
The vaccine may also contain trace amounts of egg proteins, neomycin, polymyxin, sucrose and detergent (sodium taurodeoxycholate). The vaccine does not contain lactose, gluten, tartrazine or any azo dyes.
Now you all know what is in the Vaccine perhaps this will help you decide. Also do not believe what some people are saying or claiming on this thread as some people are making statements as though they are fact but giving no evidence to back up these claims. One more thing quoting a web page is not evidence as for every web page that gives correct information there are thousands that are completely bogus.
If in doubt about this particular Vaccine ask a Professional, that means at least one Registered Doctor and not people here on the org who have no qualifications at all.
I haven't been shouting, but thanks anyway.
Let's start with thiomersal, that's a preservative containing mercury, isn't it? And hasn't it been linked to brain damage? Why would you want this injected into the blood stream of a pregnant woman and her-and-her-husband's baby?
What do neomycin and polymyxin do? What have they been linked to?
What is squalene? Why is it considered dangerous to inject this substance into the blood stream? Does the vaccine contain this?
Ask a professional? Okay - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok
I haven't been shouting, but thanks anyway.
Let's start with thiomersal, that's a preservative containing mercury, isn't it? And hasn't it been linked to brain damage? Why would you want this injected into the blood stream of a pregnant woman and her-and-her-husband's baby?
Thimerosal is a preservative that has been used in some vaccines since the 1930's, when it was first introduced by Eli Lilly Company. It is 49.6% mercury by weight and is metabolized or degraded into ethylmercury and thiosalicylate. At concentrations found in vaccines, it meets the requirements for a preservative as set forth by the United States Pharmacopeia; that is, it kills the specified challenge organisms and is able to prevent the growth of the challenge fungi. Prior to its introduction in the 1930's, data were available in several animal species and humans providing evidence for its safety and effectiveness as a preservative. Since then, thimerosal has a long record of safe and effective use preventing bacterial and fungal contamination of vaccines, with no ill effects established other than minor local reactions at the site of injection
What do neomycin and polymyxin do? What have they been linked to?C I still need to look this up
[quote=Stavro;612297]What is squalene? Why is it considered dangerous to inject this substance into the blood stream? Does the vaccine contain this?
No Squalene in NOT in the H1n1 Vaccine
Ask a professional? Okay - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok/ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok)
I said ask a Professional and just because someone makes a post on youtune does not make them a Professional in the medical Field.
Go and ask your Doctor and then ask for a second opion. I have aleady stated that web sites can not be relied on for correct information. This includes People who post on Youtube. If you think otherwise then you are beyond help and will believe anything you read.
Thimerosal is a preservative that has been used in some vaccines since the 1930's, when it was first introduced by Eli Lilly Company. It is 49.6% mercury by weight ...
So you believe that injecting mercury into the blood stream is of no concern.
[quote=Stavro;612297]What do neomycin and polymyxin do? What have they been linked to?C I still need to look this up
Okay, fair enough. Where are you going for your information?
No Squalene in NOT in the H1n1 Vaccine
Not necessarily true, as far as I understand it.
I said ask a Professional and just because someone makes a post on youtune does not make them a Professional in the medical Field.
Go and ask your Doctor and then ask for a second opion. I have aleady stated that web sites can not be relied on for correct information. This includes People who post on Youtube. If you think otherwise then you are beyond help and will believe anything you read.
Thank you for your opinion.
The speakers on the video link I posted have their medical credentials clearly listed. Your comment is therefore erroneous.
No Squalene in NOT in the H1n1 Vaccine
I said ask a Professional and just because someone makes a post on youtune does not make them a Professional in the medical Field.
Well, according to the National Health Service, squalene IS in the H1N1 vaccine:
http://www.nes.scot.nhs.uk/hai/pandemic_flu/documents/H1N1v1.028-09-09.pdf
(see pages 29 and 30). Note that the AS03 adjuvant contains squalene oil.
:eek:
Margaret M.
26-Oct-09, 03:19
Also do not believe what some people are saying or claiming on this thread as some people are making statements as though they are fact but giving no evidence to back up these claims.
Kinda like you just did? :D
Margaret M.
26-Oct-09, 03:26
Purified, inactivated virus fragments from influenza type: -
Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 influenza virus strain, 15 micrograms (0.5 mL dose) It contains thiomersal as a preservative in the multi-dose vial.
Other ingredients: -
Sodium chloride
Sodium phosphate – monobasic
Sodium phosphate – dibasic anhydrous
Potassium chloride
Potassium phosphate – monobasic
Calcium chloride
The vaccine may also contain trace amounts of egg proteins, neomycin, polymyxin, sucrose and detergent (sodium taurodeoxycholate).
Hey Tonkatojo, the Royal Canadian Air Farce has made all that stuff real easy to understand: What is in the flu vaccine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWfCnjnShnM
Quote from kodiak,,,,,,,,
Also do not believe what some people are saying or claiming on this thread as some people are making statements as though they are fact but giving no evidence to back up these claims.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and what kind of evidence would you be wanting?
Alice in Blunderland
26-Oct-09, 06:06
One of the health proffessionals speaking out on the youtube video we were just watching.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5913324.ece
Another bit of information on the same doctor taken from the internet.
Professional misconduct charges:
A 2007 hearing with the General Medical Council is examining charges of professional misconduct against Wakefield and two colleagues involved in the Lancet paper. The charges include:
He was being paid to conduct the study by solicitors representing parents who believed their children had been harmed by MMR, and failed to disclose this in his IRB.
He ordered investigations "without the requisite paediatric qualifications".
Acting "dishonestly and irresponsibly" in failing to disclose how patients were recruited for the study, and that some were paid to take part.
Performing colonoscopies, colon biopsies and lumbar punctures ("spinal taps") on his research subjects without proper approval and contrary to the children's clinical interests, when these diagnostic tests were not indicated by the children's symptoms or medical history.
Conducting the study on a basis which was not approved by the hospital's ethics committee.
Purchasing blood samples - for £5 each - from children present at his son's birthday party, as described by Wakefield himself in a videotaped public conference.
Wakefield denies the charges. On 27 March, 2008, Wakefield began his defence in the hearing.
Data fixing allegations:
In February 2009, The Sunday Times reported that a further investigation by the newspaper had revealed that Wakefield "changed and misreported results in his research, creating the appearance of a possible link with autism", citing evidence obtained by the newspaper from medical records and interviews with witnesses, and supported by evidence presented to the GMC. The newspaper went on to state that the rates of inoculation fell from 92% (very slightly below measles herd immunity) to below 80% after the publication of Wakefield's study, and that confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales have risen from 56 in 1998 to 1348 in 2008, with two child fatalities,[10] as well as others seriously ill on ventilators.
I would still advocate if you have any doubts about health matters talk to your family GP whom you know and have been probably attending for many years. To surf the internet you have to have a very good, self spam filter.
oldmarine
26-Oct-09, 06:48
We have run out of this vaccine here in Tucson. My wife and I received the regular flu shots but are still awaiting the H1N1 vaccine. During my past years I always got the flu whenever I did not get my flu shots. Will have to wait and see what happens.
tonkatojo
26-Oct-09, 10:06
Hey Tonkatojo, the Royal Canadian Air Farce has made all that stuff real easy to understand: What is in the flu vaccine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWfCnjnShnM
It makes me wonder how backward people must be to actually think that has humour, the canned laughter was well on time though.
Did you find that informative, for an supposedly or making out to be a smart person it makes me wonder. If that was a way of making me feel inferior to the likes of you ,it failed.
But if you want to believe that tosh go on, I wouldnt laugh at you, pity comes more to my mind.
By the way are you more informed than the Scottish chief medical officer ??, if so what are you doing spouting on the likes of the ORG, you should be curing the world or at least putting your knowledge in practice with the leading research scientists, see how far you get.
Margaret M.
26-Oct-09, 14:18
If that was a way of making me feel inferior to the likes of you ,it failed.
Oh lighten up, I thought the skit was funny and in no way was it meant as an insult to you. I respect everyone on here including those who do not share my point of view.
tonkatojo
26-Oct-09, 14:26
Oh lighten up, I thought the skit was funny and in no way was it meant as an insult to you. I respect everyone on here including those who do not share my point of view.
With your amount of experience it should be easy enough to add the appropriate smilie to indicate your intended wit, for instance :( at you original post or a ;) if you are jesting. But OK no harm done, I have no bruises ;).
OK no harm done, I have no bruises ;).
The sketch was funny and I'm glad that you no longer find it insulting in any way. :)
To surf the internet you have to have a very good, self spam filter.
"I came back to the hearing just in time to see the prosecution reach new heights of absurdity on Monday August 13th , when they called Dr Lloyd Evans, a consultant in paediatric neuro disability, as a witness.
"The witness did manage to remember his name and address, but little else about anything much, and almost nothing about his contact with Dr Wakefield at the Royal Free. Dr Evans happily chatted with Miss Smith about the generality of his work at the Royal Free and what he did in the London Borough of Camden. Had he been asked, no doubt he would have talked happily about his tastes in music and the sexual mores of his neighbours but asked specifically about any contact he had with Andrew Wakefield, he suffered acute amnesia.
"Dr Lloyd Evans repeated the words ‘I can’t remember’, so many times, that half way through his evidence I got the feeling that I had strayed into a 1950s B Movie, entitled something like ‘The Man Who Forgot Who He Was’. Then it occurred to me that perhaps Miss Smith had called him to the wrong hearing and that he was actually some kind of exhibition witness in a University lecture she was giving on amnesia; thoughts of Miss Smith in a professorial gown, mortar board and pointer stick floated through my mind. On the other hand, observers with more vivid imaginations who had seen the Manchurian Candidate might have conjured up a scenario where Lloyd Evans had been hypnotised on the phone by one of the defence council, to respond with the words ‘I can’t remember’ whenever he heard the words ‘Dr Wakefield’.
"Miss Smith spent her time between Dr Lloyd Evan’s repetitions, desperately thinking of how she might phrase a question which would gain a positive response. However she phrased her questions though, the witness remained memoryless. Miss Smith persisted asking him in detail, even with the help of contemporary records, how he had found the three children, nos. 8, 6 and 7, each of whom he had apparently been asked by Dr Wakefield to asses. ‘Do you remember the children’ Miss Smith asked earnestly, ‘No, not at all’, responded Dr Lloyd Evans. ‘Did you assess them?’ she persisted, ‘I can’t remember’ he responded.
"Having steered him through the rocks on matters of fact relating to the defendants work, and having elucidated nothing from him by way of fact about the case before her, Miss Smith decided to have a chat with him about his work and other things of interest. In this, Dr Lloyd Evans, acquitted himself well. Did he know what ‘regressive autism’ was, asked Miss Smith. ‘Yes’, replied Lloyd Evans, who went on to describe regressive autism and despite putting his own interpretation on it’s diagnosis and it’s prognosis, made real the very syndrome which Dr Wakefield had reported; although of course adding nothing about its gastroenterological aspects.
"Suddenly Dr Lloyd Evans was speaking for himself, as if freed from hypnosis. In cases of regressive autism you would need to carry out many tests and investigations. Definitely you would need lumber puncture to test for biochemical and viral elements in fluids. Miss Smith balked at this revelation, and it took her a good quarter of an hour to discipline Dr Lloyd Evans and to get him, as they say, ‘singing from the same hymn sheet’. At the end of the day, however, all he would say in recompense for this further gift to the defence was, that in cases of more straightforward autism you didn’t need all those investigations.
"Dr Lloyd Evan’s evidenceless and memory free evidence, left little fertile ground for defence cross examination and when the defence rested at 11.45, Miss Smith had to admit that she did not have another witness in waiting. At her most imperious, she joked that, as it was impossible to tell how long the defence would take in cross examination, she had been unable to bring her next witness. It is difficult to imagine what kind of cross-examination of the amnesiac witness Miss Smith thought was possible. As Dr Lloyd Evans was a specialist in neuro-disability, perhaps a question such as; ‘Could you tell me why you can’t remember anything?’ might have been appropriate." (www.whale.to)
Dr. Andrew Wakefield and his team demonstrated a possible link between the MMR vaccine and autism in children. Their research was peer-reviewed and published in The Lancet.
Alice in Blunderland
26-Oct-09, 23:36
Dr. Andrew Wakefield and his team demonstrated a possible link between the MMR vaccine and autism in children. Their research was peer-reviewed and published in The Lancet.
"We did not prove an association between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and the syndrome described. Virological studies are underway that may help to resolve this issue"
In 2004, 10 of the 13 authors issued a statement in the Lancet entitled "Retraction of an interpretation". In this, the authors retracted the conclusion section of the paper, formally in the Lancet and in many biomedical journals, as the "interpretation". The section of the paper retracted said:
"Interpretation. We identified associated gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in a group of previously normal children, which was generally associated in time with possible environmental triggers."
In the retraction, issued in March 2004, they said:
"We wish to make it clear that in this paper no causal link was established between MMR vaccine and autism as the data were insufficient. However, the possibility of such a link was raised and consequent events have had major implications for public health. In view of this, we consider now is the appropriate time that we should together formally retract the interpretation placed upon these findings in the paper, according to precedent."
The authors also said:
"The main thrust of this paper was the first description of an unexpected intestinal lesion in the children reported. Further evidence has been forthcoming in studies from the Royal Free Centre for Paediatric Gastroenterology and other groups to support and extend these findings. While much uncertainty remains about the nature of these changes, we believe it important that such work continues, as autistic children can potentially be helped by recognition and treatment of gastrointestinal problems."
Just before the retraction, criticism arose over the fact that the Royal Free Hospital had received £55 000,00 in August 1996 from lawyers preparing to sue MMR manufacturers for support of Dr. Wakefield's research. Wakefield asserted that the donation was to fund a second clinical study; some of the children involved were subjects in both studies. However, it was subsequently revealed by The Sunday Times of London that Wakefield had personally been paid more than £400,000.
Wakefield, who did not sign the retraction, currently faces disciplinary charges before the General Medical Council over the conduct of this research. In February 2009 The Sunday Times reported that Wakefield had manipulated patient data and misreported results in his 1998 paper, creating the appearance of a link with autism.
I would say that for any piece of literature you can google for this Doctor as much can be found against. Looks like some of his team needed to clear up a few issues highlighted in red. Whats the truth well its down to who you trust.
If you have trust in your GP for day to day matters why not for advice on vaccination.:)
Dr. Andrew Wakefield, M.B., B.S., F.R.C.S., F.R.C.Path., "did not sign the retraction"
If you have trust in your GP for day to day matters why not for advice on vaccination.:)
Two main reasons: 1) Your GP is not necessarily an expert on vaccine composition or effects, especially with untested vaccines; 2) Your GP is under certain pressure from central government to tow the party line.
Incidentally, research funding by interested parties is very commonplace. The vaccine manufacturers, for example, have far more money to spend on this form of advertising, than do the parents of children who were normal before MMR vaccination.
The "retraction" of some team members that you reference is both a play on words ("proof" in scientific terms being very much open to interpretation), and a result of extreme financial, professional and governmental pressure.
toodiemac
27-Oct-09, 00:24
"We did not prove an association between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and the syndrome described. Virological studies are underway that may help to resolve this issue"
In 2004, 10 of the 13 authors issued a statement in the Lancet entitled "Retraction of an interpretation". In this, the authors retracted the conclusion section of the paper, formally in the Lancet and in many biomedical journals, as the "interpretation". The section of the paper retracted said:
"Interpretation. We identified associated gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in a group of previously normal children, which was generally associated in time with possible environmental triggers."
In the retraction, issued in March 2004, they said:
"We wish to make it clear that in this paper no causal link was established between MMR vaccine and autism as the data were insufficient. However, the possibility of such a link was raised and consequent events have had major implications for public health. In view of this, we consider now is the appropriate time that we should together formally retract the interpretation placed upon these findings in the paper, according to precedent."
The authors also said:
"The main thrust of this paper was the first description of an unexpected intestinal lesion in the children reported. Further evidence has been forthcoming in studies from the Royal Free Centre for Paediatric Gastroenterology and other groups to support and extend these findings. While much uncertainty remains about the nature of these changes, we believe it important that such work continues, as autistic children can potentially be helped by recognition and treatment of gastrointestinal problems."
Just before the retraction, criticism arose over the fact that the Royal Free Hospital had received £55 000,00 in August 1996 from lawyers preparing to sue MMR manufacturers for support of Dr. Wakefield's research. Wakefield asserted that the donation was to fund a second clinical study; some of the children involved were subjects in both studies. However, it was subsequently revealed by The Sunday Times of London that Wakefield had personally been paid more than £400,000.
Wakefield, who did not sign the retraction, currently faces disciplinary charges before the General Medical Council over the conduct of this research. In February 2009 The Sunday Times reported that Wakefield had manipulated patient data and misreported results in his 1998 paper, creating the appearance of a link with autism.
I would say that for any piece of literature you can google for this Doctor as much can be found against. Looks like some of his team needed to clear up a few issues highlighted in red. Whats the truth well its down to who you trust.
If you have trust in your GP for day to day matters why not for advice on vaccination.:)
And yet despite all this even our very own 'DOCTOR' here on the org has reservations about the MMR for some children - as stated in a previous post. If DOCTOR is indeed a GP then I suppose parents considering the MMR for their own children should have reservations too really.
Alice in Blunderland
27-Oct-09, 00:24
Dr. Andrew Wakefield, M.B., B.S., F.R.C.S., F.R.C.Path., "did not sign the retraction"
Two main reasons: 1) Your GP is not necessarily an expert on vaccine composition or effects, especially with untested vaccines; 2) Your GP is under certain pressure from central government to tow the party line.
Incidentally, research funding by interested parties is very commonplace. The vaccine manufacturers, for example, have far more money to spend on this form of advertising, than do the parents of children who were normal before MMR vaccination.
The "retraction" of some team members that you reference is both a play on words ("proof" in scientific terms being very much open to interpretation), and a result of extreme financial, professional and governmental pressure.
Really :eek: I dont think so.
As for it being a play on words both sides can play with words. Of course he wont sign that statement it would be like putting the rope round his own neck for a public hanging.Some team members, it was most of them did they all come under such pressure that they all buckled............... :)
Really :eek: I dont think so.
Then I think you are being naive.
As for it being a play on words both sides can play with words. Of course he wont sign that statement it would be like putting the rope round his own neck for a public hanging.
That is your conjecture to fit in with your bias. The fact is that Dr Wakefield has not retracted his findings, nor his opinion, which is contrary to what your posts have implied. The obvious reason that he has not retracted his conclusions, nor the data upon which they are based, is that he still believes them to be correct. Certainly there are very many parents out there who regret allowing their child to have the MMR vaccine, whether as a result of subsequent autism or bowel disease, and thus agree with Dr Wakefield.
Whether you like it or not,
Dr. Andrew Wakefield, M.B., B.S., F.R.C.S., F.R.C.Path., "did not sign the retraction"
:D
Margaret M.
27-Oct-09, 04:33
If you have trust in your GP for day to day matters why not for advice on vaccination.:)
I love my doctors but until I find one who loves me more than I love me, I will continue to get their recommendation, do my own research and make the final decision. I've had GP's misdiagnose more than once and I've caught a few errors made on prescriptions -- they are human and make mistakes just like the rest of us.
There is too much controversy around vaccines. There are so many more vaccinations given now than when we were kids but yet the kids today are much sicker than we ever were and many experts believe that vaccines may be the cause. There needs to be meaningful research done to determine why so many children have learning disabilities, autism, diabetes, and other chronic diseases. If pharmaceutical companies have nothing to hide, they should help fund the research and participate in the studies instead of fighting tooth and nail to prevent it.
Alice in Blunderland
27-Oct-09, 09:49
Then I think you are being naive.
No, I would not say that I am naive just because I have a different opinion from you on something. :)
This is your conjecture to fit in with your bias.
And the same could be said for your train of thought. Yes .... No ?
The fact is that Dr Wakefield has not retracted his findings, nor his opinion, which is contrary to what your posts have implied. The obvious reason that he has not retracted his conclusions, nor the data upon which they are based, is that he still believes them to be correct. Certainly there are very many parents out there who regret allowing their child to have the MMR vaccine, whether as a result of subsequent autism or bowel disease, and thus agree with Dr Wakefield.
There are now also many parents out there whose children have contracted measles due to non vaccination during this time of confusion over the vaccine who now regret not giving their child MMR. Also I seem to remember that the link has never yet been proven DR Wakefield believes it, some people also believe theres alien landings and can show you some evidence of the fact. ;)
Whether you like it or not,
Dr. Andrew Wakefield, M.B., B.S., F.R.C.S., F.R.C.Path., "did not sign the retraction"
Whether Dr Andrew Wakefield signs or does not sign the retraction doesn't bother me. I am just balancing up the points raised against vaccines with some points to give even arguement.
All my children were vaccinated with their recommended vaccines and all thank God are healthy and doing well.
The decision people make on whether to take a vaccination or not is down to the individual and they have to live with this decision.
I would think we shall have to agree to disagree on this subject as we can ping pong a play on words for a good time yet. :)
Alice in Blunderland
27-Oct-09, 10:02
And yet despite all this even our very own 'DOCTOR' here on the org has reservations about the MMR for some children - as stated in a previous post. If DOCTOR is indeed a GP then I suppose parents considering the MMR for their own children should have reservations too really.
The full quote by DOCTOR.........
I do have concerns for a small minority that said all my children are vaccinated for MMR.They are all healthy children. I delayed MMR for my youngest until she was older than required due to the fact that she was sick for the first year of her life. I discussed with our GP our reasons for this and he agreed.
You will see he also stated all his children had the vaccination :)
The full quote by DOCTOR.........
I do have concerns for a small minority that said all my children are vaccinated for MMR.They are all healthy children. I delayed MMR for my youngest until she was older than required due to the fact that she was sick for the first year of her life. I discussed with our GP our reasons for this and he agreed.
You will see he also stated all his children had the vaccination :)
That is because they are his children as well as urs!!!:lol:;)
roadbowler
27-Oct-09, 11:41
kodiak, do not know where you got your ingredients list but the vaccine used in the uk is glaxo smith klines pandemrix. It contains 10.68 mg of Squalene. This is not a secret. Yes, squalene is natural in the body. However, the squalene in the vaccine is there as an adjuvant meaning it is used to kickstart the immune system. It is also being injected.. Which is not natural meaning the injected squalene will cause an immune response signaling an attack on the natural squalene in the body. Not good. Please google, "squalene guardian.co.uk gulf war" 1st result will explain how squalene was used as a adjuvant ILLEGALLY in the anthrax vaccine used on the gulf war soldiers. The ministry can lie about it all they want but, it is proven that 95% of affected vets tested positive for squalene antibodies.
There are now also many parents out there whose children have contracted measles due to non vaccination during this time of confusion over the vaccine who now regret not giving their child MMR.
Reference to these "many parents," please.
Also I seem to remember that the link has never yet been proven DR Wakefield believes it, some people also believe theres alien landings and can show you some evidence of the fact. ;)
A childish and irrelevant comparison.
Whether Dr Andrew Wakefield signs or does not sign the retraction doesn't bother me.
It may not bother you, but you certainly implied that Dr. Wakefield had retracted his professional, researched conclusions. This was not true.
All my children were vaccinated with their recommended vaccines and all thank God are healthy and doing well.
I am genuinely pleased that they were not harmed by the MMR vaccine.
The decision people make on whether to take a vaccination or not is down to the individual and they have to live with this decision.
As I have stated many times on this thread, as you should know. :D
roadbowler
27-Oct-09, 19:13
alice, are you aware that by the by the time they started full scale vaccination for measles in 1968 in this country death rates from measles had already declined 99.4% from the peak in 1901-02?? The measles vaccine does not work, nor has it ever. In fact, the only thing it has done is spawn a new breed of measles called atypical measles which only occurs in the vaccinated and is resistant to treatment. On the suject of the mmr. How many people are aware that contracting mumps actually lessens a girls risk of contracting ovarian cancer later in life? Mumps is virtually harmless to girls, in fact it seems it is helpful to their health in adulthood! And...... Ovarian cancer is nearly 4x more prevalent than cervical cancer! Sadly, 70% of women diagnosed with ovarian cancer die within 5 years. If our gps were so concerned why are they not recommending girls skip the mumps vaccine??
How many people are aware that contracting mumps actually lessens a girls risk of contracting ovarian cancer later in life? Mumps is virtually harmless to girls, in fact it seems it is helpful to their health in adulthood!
I have yet to see any evidence of protection against ovarian cancer. The biggest protector against ovarian cancer is the progesterone only contraceptive pill.
Poor boys if they catch mumps after they have reached puberty - orchiditis and infertility is not a nice side effect...
Edit - there could be a link here between this thread and the "can we help them?" thread...
toodiemac
27-Oct-09, 22:13
The full quote by DOCTOR.........
I do have concerns for a small minority that said all my children are vaccinated for MMR.They are all healthy children. I delayed MMR for my youngest until she was older than required due to the fact that she was sick for the first year of her life. I discussed with our GP our reasons for this and he agreed.
You will see he also stated all his children had the vaccination :)
DOCTOR'S concerns regarding a "small minority" of children pretty much reflect what Wakefield said don't they? He didn't say parents should stop vaccinating he said that he had concerns that a small minority of children had reacted badly to the vaccine and that further study should be done.
DOCTOR and Wakefield's concerns are shared by many, many other professionals.
roadbowler
27-Oct-09, 22:16
ehm.. Leanne. Actually the contraceptive pill increases your risk of cervical cancer and there are now studies that say estrogen use causes ovarian cancer not prevents as once thought. The contraceptive pill is very effective at birth control however, the side effects including gynecological problems soaring out of control in todays women after 50 years of its use is rather alarming! We arnae speaking about boys are we leanne? We are speaking about mumps, girls and ovarian cancer. If you are feared over the effects in boys though, go look at the statistics of which you speak.
roadbowler
27-Oct-09, 22:27
i should have added that actually the best prevention of ovarian cancer deaths is education about the symptoms. It is said the reason why there are so many deaths from it is because many women do not recognise the implications of possibly minor early symptoms they are having. Therefore, by the time it is diagnosed, it has spread and is too late.
toodiemac
27-Oct-09, 22:28
I have yet to see any evidence of protection against ovarian cancer. The biggest protector against ovarian cancer is the contraceptive pill.
Poor boys if they catch mumps after they have reached puberty - orchiditis and infertility is not a nice side effect...
Edit - there could be a link here between this thread and the "can we help them?" thread...
It's extremely rare for mumps to result in infertility Leanne, very rare indeed. Years ago before the MMR was introduced it was also rare for people to catch mumps beyond childhood. It seems that rather than wiping out mumps the vaccine has pushed up the age people contract the disease in many cases, probably because of waning immunity.
Incidentally, there was a mumps vaccine available long before the MMR was developed, but it seems that nobody bothered to use it because mumps was considered such a mild childhood illness.
:)
oldmarine
28-Oct-09, 13:11
I have yet to see any evidence of protection against ovarian cancer. The biggest protector against ovarian cancer is the contraceptive pill.
Leanne: From where did you get your medical degree that makes you an expert on ovarian cancer? My wife died from ovarian cancer and never took any contraceptive pills.
Leanne: From where did you get your medical degree that makes you an expert on ovarian cancer? My wife died from ovarian cancer and never took any contraceptive pills.
oldmarine, Leanne's comment is simply rubbish.
Leanne: From where did you get your medical degree that makes you an expert on ovarian cancer? My wife died from ovarian cancer and never took any contraceptive pills.
I stated that contraception offers protection. If you don't take it you don't have the protection. If you are on a contraceptive that blocks the release of eggs this underactive ovary is given some protection. The same protection is offered my multiple childbirth (talking 8 children +).
Oh and my degree isn't in Medicine it's Biomedical Sciences...
Stavros - once again you make a flippant comment without any justification - laughable!
The estrogen in the contraceptive pill is a cancer activator.
The estrogen in the contraceptive pill is a cancer activator.
The combined contraceptive pill has eostrogen for a limited phase of the cycle with varying levels of progesterone and no hormone for the other phases. It is also a low dose of eostrogen. There is also a progesterone only pill (the most common type) and this is considered the "safer" pill.
The progesterone only pill works by suppressing the body's own production of oestrogen thus offering protection. As I said earlier - multiple pregnancies also offers the same benefit.
Edit - edited one word in my original post to clarify this.
Edit - edited one word in my original post to clarify this.
You added "progesterone only," which is two words rather than one and completely changes what you were claiming earlier! :lol:
George Brims
28-Oct-09, 18:43
The estrogen in the contraceptive pill is a cancer activator.
The estrogen produced naturally in the human body is also an activator. This does not apply to all forms of ovarian and breast cancer. Estrogen at the levels produced by taking the pill doesn't significantly increase a woman's chances of developing cancer. At the levels once used in HRT, there was an increased risk.
The estrogen produced naturally in the human body is also an activator.
Yes, and the estrogen contained in the pill would add to this amount.
Estrogen at the levels produced by taking the pill doesn't significantly increase a woman's chances of developing cancer.
I do not agree with you, but this is off-topic, I suppose.
roadbowler
29-Oct-09, 11:04
a biomedical scientist. Excellent. Which discipline? As then in future we will know which questions to direct at you for your educated opinion. ;)
a biomedical scientist. Excellent. Which discipline? As then in future we will know which questions to direct at you for your educated opinion.
Thanks for asking - not sure on how PC it is putting my history on the net but I have nothing to hide :)
I got into science by working in Cytogenetics (amniocentisis testing) then got a job as a trainee BMS working in cellular pathology (cytology, histology and immunocytochemistry), specialising in Cytology at qualification (tested cervical smears and body fluids for cancer/precancerous changes). I had a 6 month period working in Haematology and then started working oncall in haematology, transfusion, microbiology and biochemistry. When the HPV vaccine came out and my job was lost I retrained in Heamatology fully. I then worked full time in a haematology lab doing all the routine testing including blood transfusion and dosing for the drug warfarin. I missed working in a small lab so applied for a job in Caithness so here I am :)
That's pretty much my CV - done a bit of everything so I'm a well rounded sort ;)
roadbowler
29-Oct-09, 19:52
pretty impressive leanne. i now understand why you are so pro-pharmaceutical/vaccine. ;) plz, don't take that the wrong way but, you must admit that if ones paycheck comes from an industry which works in tandem with the pharmaceutical industry their view does tend to be slanted on these issues. I would say the same for a vitamin salesman too! I have NO medical training but, it is my job to protect my bairn and myself and i do not act solely on advice from the white coat brigade. I research, lots, including querying relatives and friends who have medical backgrounds all across the spectrum and make my decision. My biggest problem with modern medicine is the emphasis on treatment with drugs instead of prevention through natural living, good diet, sunshine, exercise. There is only ONE logical reason for this that i can think of and it has nothing to do with health. Btw. What did you mean by the hpv vaccine came out and i lost my job?
Btw. What did you mean by the hpv vaccine came out and i lost my job?
As a result of the HPV vaccine trials (and the introduction of liquid based Cytology) the Cytology service was "slimlined" with laboratories merging. For me to stay in the hospital I trained in I would have lost half of my skills and had to work part time in another department (1/2 cytology 1/2 histology) which would have effectively ruined my career as I wouldn't be able to keep up the skills in either to progress with my career. The two options were to move to the hospital that all the work was tranfered to (big teaching hospital in the city - no thankyou) or to completely retrain. I retrained, taking an £8000 pay cut. I worked in that department for 2 years and now have moved here :) (I applied for a job in Oban too but much prefered here :) )
I took an £8000 pay cut for job security and my boss got "downgraded" 2 grades - the equivalent of about £8000 (protected pay for 2 years - which is now up). He is 6 years off retirement so the pay cut has made a huge impact on what he expected to take home when he retires. The unions got involved as they were threatening our job security, career progression and pay but there was nothing they could do. We were told categorically we weren't allowed to strike - we had to like it or leave!
I chose the latter and it was the best move I ever made. I really love it here. I love the closenit community, I love the care given in the hospitals (smaller hospital really does give a more personal touch), I love the scenery and coastline, I love the people (both the "normal" ones and the "characters" that you only seem to get in such a small town). I feel very fortunate to live here and would like to give everyone a big thankyou for making me feel so welcome :)
roadbowler
29-Oct-09, 20:17
yep, i can vouch for class service in the wick hospital!
yep, i can vouch for class service in the wick hospital!
Definitely...Ditto!!!:D
oldmarine
30-Oct-09, 14:38
Thanks for asking - not sure on how PC it is putting my history on the net but I have nothing to hide :)
I got into science by working in Cytogenetics (amniocentisis testing) then got a job as a trainee BMS working in cellular pathology (cytology, histology and immunocytochemistry), specialising in Cytology at qualification (tested cervical smears and body fluids for cancer/precancerous changes). I had a 6 month period working in Haematology and then started working oncall in haematology, transfusion, microbiology and biochemistry. When the HPV vaccine came out and my job was lost I retrained in Heamatology fully. I then worked full time in a haematology lab doing all the routine testing including blood transfusion and dosing for the drug warfarin. I missed working in a small lab so applied for a job in Caithness so here I am :)
That's pretty much my CV - done a bit of everything so I'm a well rounded sort ;)
Leanne: I congratulate you on your impressive education. Having earned my Bachelor of Science degree in Electronics Engineering, I can appreciate the regimen of training you were compelled to under go. You also have an impressive application of your training. I wish you the best in your position in Caithness. I have a good memory of my time at the Naval Station in Thurso, Caithness. I have been back there when I toured Scotland and Caithness with my wife and children. What pleasant memories I have of that part of the country.
Leanne: I congratulate you on your impressive education. Having earned my Bachelor of Science degree in Electronics Engineering, I can appreciate the regimen of training you were compelled to under go.
Thankyou - I have friends who have done electronic engineering and its not the easiest degree in the world. A few of them really struggled at the time but the dividends were worth it I think.
There was a lot of work involved :( I didn't go to university full time - I finished my highers the year that Labour got into power and scrapped the grants [evil]. Unfortunately my parents couldn't afford to support me through university (and I wouldn't have expected them to) so I got a job in a lab working full time and did my degree over 5 years on day release. I missed out on the social scene but I was the only one on my course with a nice car and a mortgage
What pleasant memories I have of that part of the country.
I know what you mean. I have nothing but fondness for Caithness so far :) I am yet to find a "bad" part which is so unusual in this day and age... I'm hoping for many more good memories too!
Anyway back on topic - anyone had the vaccine yet? I'm due to have it soon as I'm classed as "front line" staff (I think). I don't think I'd forgive myself if I caught it and inadvertantly passed it on to a high risk group person who then developed complications...
I'll let you know if I'm still alive when I've had it...
Thankyou - I have friends who have done electronic engineering and its not the easiest degree in the world. A few of them really struggled at the time but the dividends were worth it I think.
There was a lot of work involved go to university full time - I finished my highers the year that Labour got into power and scrapped the grants [evil]. Unfortunately my parents couldn't afford to support me through university (and I wouldn't have expected them to) so I got a job in a lab working full time and did my degree over 5 years on day release. I missed out on the social scene but I was the only one on my course with a nice car and a mortgage
I know what you mean. I have nothing but fondness for Caithness so far :) I am yet to find a "bad" part which is so unusual in this day and age... I'm hoping for many more good memories too!
Anyway back on topic - anyone had the vaccine yet? I'm due to have it soon as I'm classed as "front line" staff (I think). I don't think I'd forgive myself if I caught it and inadvertantly passed it on to a high risk group person who then developed complications...
I'll let you know if I'm still alive when I've had it...
Has anyone in caithness high risk group received this vacc .yet??
Have asked at my surgery ,but they have no idea when they will get supplies.
If I could buy it privately,then I certainly would.
As someone in the high risk group,I quite frankly think it is a disgrace that other folk like me have no protection as yet.Very worrying...I might need to curtail being around other folk to prevent infection.At this time of the year viruses really start to kick in.
If anyone has received the vacc. up here please let us know .;)
Has anyone in caithness high risk group received this vacc .yet??
Training has just been given to staff this last Friday at the hospital so I'm guessing watch this space...
About the call though I don't know whether Caithness is doing what the UK are doing and phoning everyone individually rather than sending out paper invitations. The postal strike is getting in the way I believe... Blame Royal Mail (not the workers, the bosses)!
Training has just been given to staff this last Friday at the hospital so I'm guessing watch this space...
About the call though I don't know whether Caithness is doing what the UK are doing and phoning everyone individually rather than sending out paper invitations. The postal strike is getting in the way I believe... Blame Royal Mail (not the workers, the bosses)!
Ihave called my surgery over the last 2 weeks....and will continue to do so.
I really do not see what the post office has to do with the delay......my mail here has not been disrupted in any way whatsoever.Honestly...I have had parcels/mail delivered as usual.Sent a package back to simpsons[ grooming supplies] a week past friday[late afternoon],by special delivery.
they received Monday morning.they are way down in England..........
Glad to hear about the training.......is that how to give a jab???Good Lord...what a waste of time/money.Surely any trained nurse[ I was one myself..in the seventies...still remember how to do injections].is perfectly capable of doing so without TRAINING!!!!lol!!!:roll:
Thanks for ur reply,though.:D
Glad to hear about the training.......is that how to give a jab???Good Lord...what a waste of time/money.Surely any trained nurse[ I was one myself..in the seventies...still remember how to do injections].is perfectly capable of doing so without TRAINING!!!!lol!!!
That's a little harsh :( I expect the training is to allow staff to be full informed of the facts concerning the vaccine and fully counsell patients on the side effects and allay any fears. Also as the vaccine is an immunoglobulin it will be thicker than a "normal jab" - more like Anti-D given to Rhesus negative women after childbirth.
Better for staff to be full informed that stab in the dark ;)
I'm not medical staff so this is my assumption as to the reason for the training :)
If anyone has received the vacc. up here please let us know .;)
Don't want the vaccine, but I do have some good news to report.
I know someone who has had the swine 'flu. They spent a few days in bed, feeling a bit rough, but have fully recovered now. No vaccination and no problems. :D
I know someone who has had the swine 'flu. They spent a few days in bed, feeling a bit rough, but have fully recovered now. No vaccination and no problems. :D
Did they have:
Asthma?
Diabetes?
Were they pregnant?
On immunosuppressants?
If not then its hardly surprising ;)
This vaccine, like the rubella one, is to protect the vulnerable in society. Rubella is a minor disease for the majority - pretty serious consequences if you catch it while pregnant though...
I'm going to be unselfish and have the vaccine to help protect those in society that need protecting :) 80% uptake is considered to offer protection to the vulnerable.
This vaccine, like the rubella one, is to protect the vulnerable in society.
Yep, that's why the pharmaceutical companies want to inject squalene and mercury, amongst many other lovely things, directly into their blood, thus bypassing the immune system.
The person I refer to simply kept warm and dry and rested for a few days and, lo and behold, they completely recovered. In fact, the person seems to me to be better than they were before! :D
Good news indeed, as I'm sure you will agree.
The person I refer to simply kept warm and dry and rested for a few days and, lo and behold, they completely recovered. In fact, the person seems to me to be better than they were before!
Question dodging as usual I see... Was the person from a high risk group? We all know that for most the disease is extremely mild - you are just repeating what everyone already knows...
Also as the vaccine is an immunoglobulin it will be thicker than a "normal jab" - more like Anti-D given to Rhesus negative women after childbirth.
I still remember how much that jag hurt my posterior.......don't think I want the jag now even if it is in my arm [lol]
Did they have:
Asthma?
Diabetes?
Were they pregnant?
On immunosuppressants?
If not then its hardly surprising ;)
This vaccine, like the rubella one, is to protect the vulnerable in society. Rubella is a minor disease for the majority - pretty serious consequences if you catch it while pregnant though...
I'm going to be unselfish and have the vaccine to help protect those in society that need protecting :) 80% uptake is considered to offer protection to the vulnerable.
As I am in the high risk group,I am quite anxious to receive the vaccine.
I certainly do not think that going to bed /staying warm would be of much use to myself.
I am very glad ur friend recovered.
Am with u,Leanne..very responsible attitude.........;)
[quote=Leanne;614761]That's a little harsh :( I expect the training is to allow staff to be full informed of the facts concerning the vaccine and fully counsell patients on the side effects and allay any fears. Also as the vaccine is an immunoglobulin it will be thicker than a "normal jab" - more like Anti-D given to Rhesus negative women after childbirth.
Better for staff to be full informed that stab in the dark
I'm not medical staff so this is my assumption as to the reason for the quote]
Oh well....maybe u are right,let us know when u get ur jab!!!;)
let us know when u get ur jab!!!;)
I don't mind being sharing my experience (good or bad) when I have mine :)
As I am in the high risk group,I am quite anxious to receive the vaccine.
I certainly do not think that going to bed /staying warm would be of much use to myself.
I am very glad ur friend recovered.
Thank you, BINBOB. I hope that after all this debate and your own research into the subject, that you are making a good decision for yourself and that you will be fine.
Good luck.
Thank you, BINBOB. I hope that after all this debate and your own research into the subject, that you are making a good decision for yourself and that you will be fine.
Good luck.
Thank u ,Stavro for ur kind comments.:D
Thank u ,Stavro for ur kind comments.:D
Most welcome BINBOB. "All doors open to courtesy." :)
.Stavro's comment
I know someone who has had the swine 'flu. They spent a few days in bed, feeling a bit rough, but have fully recovered now. No vaccination and no problems. :D[/quote]
Same w ITH THE PERSON I WAS WRITING ABOUT, who is now fine but very tired, apparently it will take weeks to make a full recovery.But the person is back at work and fine.
roadbowler
02-Nov-09, 18:56
well, whatever it is that's going on in the ukraine just now sounds like a pretty horrific situation. Things could get fairly nasty if that starts spreading through europe. :( Stay warm and healthy folks!
annthracks
02-Nov-09, 19:16
Just say someone reading this post decided not to have the vaccine because of your post, contracted the disease and died. :eek:
Let them sue?
If someone sticks their head in a fire or jumps off a cliff on someone else's advice, without checking to see if that person has any qualification to give said advice, then it's just chlorine in the gene pool... AFAICS
annthracks
02-Nov-09, 19:22
.Stavro's comment
I know someone who has had the swine 'flu. They spent a few days in bed, feeling a bit rough, but have fully recovered now. No vaccination and no problems. :D
Same w ITH THE PERSON I WAS WRITING ABOUT, who is now fine but very tired, apparently it will take weeks to make a full recovery.But the person is back at work and fine.[/QUOTE]
I heard years ago that a bout of flu was almost as bad as a heart attack, and you should be off work as long, in order to recover fully.
FWIW, my 15yr old daughter has just gotten over H1N1 flu.
I'm an at risk - Asthma and MS sufferer ...but I won't say any more about flu jabs and their efficiency... except I won't be having one thanks.
redeyedtreefrog
02-Nov-09, 20:27
Where are all the anti-vaccinationists obtaining their BS?
roadbowler
03-Nov-09, 01:29
actually, where are all the pro-vaccinationists obtaining their bs!?;)
well, whatever it is that's going on in the ukraine just now sounds like a pretty horrific situation. Things could get fairly nasty if that starts spreading through europe. :( Stay warm and healthy folks!
What is happening in Ukraine seems to be our old friends, Baxter Pharmaceuticals, again. You remember them? They have a habit of "accidentally" contaminating their vaccine. They have a bio-weapons plant in Ukraine. The whistle was blown by a microbiologist. :eek:
roadbowler
03-Nov-09, 11:17
yes, joseph moshe, heard about him a month or two ago. Didn't take much stock in it till now. Latest reports are saying quarter million infected in the past fortnight, 70 have perished from viral pneumonia and thousands are in hospital. You think this would be on the bbc. I've only seen it in russian papers so far.:confused
highlander
03-Nov-09, 11:58
Considering the amount of people in Russia that have TB it does not surprise me and that they dont have the medical help that we get here the numbers are bound to be alarming.
roadbowler
03-Nov-09, 12:18
well, not sure what the medical system is like in ukraine however, they have closed down all schools and closed public events to stop the spread anywho.
yes, joseph moshe, heard about him a month or two ago. Didn't take much stock in it till now. Latest reports are saying quarter million infected in the past fortnight, 70 have perished from viral pneumonia and thousands are in hospital. You think this would be on the bbc. I've only seen it in russian papers so far.:confused
The BBC is little more than a government propaganda machine. If any REAL news gets on there, it won't stay there for long. Consider WTC Building 7, for example, that the BBC reported had collapsed a full 26 minutes before it did. Now they claim that they have "lost the footage." Good job that many Internet users saved it. :D
I am getting my swine-flu vaccination on monday, will let you know how i am in the evening,!!!
I am getting my swine-flu vaccination on monday, will let you know how i am in the evening,!!!
Wow...that is good news..hope [and sure] u will be ok.;)
They have decided that there isn't enough vaccine so I won't be getting a shot. They have drawn a line between front line and core services this time round...
They have decided that there isn't enough vaccine so I won't be getting a shot.
Lucky you, Leanne! :D
Lucky you, Leanne! :D
That's not the way I view it...:roll:
I have been told i dont need it so i'm not sure what to do. Not happy about signing a consent form either. Got a booklet and leaflet from the hospital so i must read them tomorrow.
roadbowler
06-Nov-09, 14:42
hi fran. Were you in a priority group? Why a consent form? What are you being asked to consent to?
roadbowler
06-Nov-09, 15:03
at least in Poland, they are being sensible! The polish health minister, Ewa Kopacz, who btw is a practicing medical doctor of over 20 years unlike our own health minister who is a lawyer has announced on polish tv that poland will not be taking part in any mass vaccination for swine flu as she says so far the pharmaceutical companies have failed to provide any evidence of the vaccines safety or efficacy. In other words in her opinion, it has not satisfied the criteria of TESTED. Poland is lucky to have a government not so far stuck into the pockets of big pharma.
oldmarine
06-Nov-09, 15:46
They have decided that there isn't enough vaccine so I won't be getting a shot. They have drawn a line between front line and core services this time round...
At 84 years of age I don't know how I fit into the scheme of things, but I do believe I have lived more than most people. Therefore, if I don't get the vaccine I hope a younger person will get it.
I have gammon flu.
I did have swine flu but the doctor cured me. :)
I have been told i dont need it so i'm not sure what to do. Not happy about signing a consent form either. Got a booklet and leaflet from the hospital so i must read them tomorrow.
I thought u had asthma/chest problems???That would make u a priority..........surely.
Who exactly told u that u were not entitled???:(
I have gammon flu.
I did have swine flu but the doctor cured me. :)
You are just hamming it up, :D
at least in Poland, they are being sensible! The polish health minister, Ewa Kopacz, who btw is a practicing medical doctor of over 20 years unlike our own health minister who is a lawyer has announced on polish tv that poland will not be taking part in any mass vaccination for swine flu as she says so far the pharmaceutical companies have failed to provide any evidence of the vaccines safety or efficacy. In other words in her opinion, it has not satisfied the criteria of TESTED. Poland is lucky to have a government not so far stuck into the pockets of big pharma.
I totally agree with you. This is excellent news for the Poles.
The pharma companies are too busy drawing up legal clauses and exclusions against them being sued to bother with things like testing the vaccines they manufacture. :eek:
Cinders392
07-Nov-09, 02:05
That's not the way I view it...:roll:
I was offered the vaccine today and politely declined so you can have my one!
I was offered the vaccine today and politely declined so you can have my one!
That's odd - they are only starting vaccinating today. Are you under Raigmore?
Had mine today - no side effects at all so far. I'll let you know if anything happens...
roadbowler
10-Nov-09, 22:18
hmmm, gp's are being paid £7.88 per swine flu vaccine given if they get 90% uptake! Outrageous. Be a nice little earner for them i would say. Imo, bonuses should NOT be given to doctors to push untested drugs on patients. If they are only given this amount for 90% uptake... How trustworthy really is docs advice??:roll:
got a call today from drs. sam has been offered the vaccine. as he is a 6 year old with asthma. i have been reading a lot since ive been home tonight and will be making a decision soon. anyone that has had the vaccine please let me know. any one elses children have it yet?
making the decision for yourself is one thing.. but making it for your child is another.
hmmm, gp's are being paid £7.88 per swine flu vaccine given if they get 90% uptake! Outrageous. Be a nice little earner for them i would say. Imo, bonuses should NOT be given to doctors to push untested drugs on patients. If they are only given this amount for 90% uptake... How trustworthy really is docs advice??:roll:
Bit of a conflict of interests, isn't it?
Bit of a conflict of interests, isn't it?
No its not :)
So there is a financial incentive to reach a government-decreed target of vaccinating 9 out of every 10 patients, yet the GPs are free to give impartial advice? The government is exerting financial pressure, is it not?
has anyone thought that without making money that the vaccine could not be made at all?
yes everyone is out to make a profit. but at the end of the day, without finances we would have no medicines. my aunt told me last night that she could not even afford to get the shot as it costs $80.00 just for the vaccine itself. lord knows what her dr. would charge on top of that for the consultation fee and the actually injection. where as we are lucky enough to have the chance to get it at no additional cost that what we pay for our NHS tax. propaganda is a great thing when you have the luxery to sit back and argue about the inns and outs of why its pc to do or not to do.
but at the end of the day is it saving lives or not. that is what is important.
Has anyone in thurso/halkirk actually had a vacc. yet??
I have been told the vaccs. have started and will get a letter.........
IST group will be pregnant women....followed by children at risk...then vulnerable people with underlying illnesses[ that is me...and many others.]
I just feel things are going far too slowly.As yet no definite appts. system and no updates on the website.Imy opinion,not good enough.............[disgust]
AfternoonDelight
11-Nov-09, 16:10
I'm not sure about Thurso but they have started contacting high risk groups in Wick so they know how many to order in at a time... I don't know when the actual vaccination programme will commence though.
AfternoonDelight
11-Nov-09, 16:21
http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/medical/swine_flu.htm
Hmmmmmm.............
It would appear that some folk,in Wick have already had...if my information is correct.
Margaret M.
11-Nov-09, 16:33
my aunt told me last night that she could not even afford to get the shot as it costs $80.00 just for the vaccine itself. lord knows what her dr. would charge on top of that for the consultation fee and the actually injection.
Where does your aunt live? The swine flu vaccine is free in every state in the U.S. Many places give the shot at no charge or for a very small fee.
but at the end of the day is it saving lives or not.That is the million dollar question. The swine flu vaccine itself caused more deaths than the flu did during the last mass vaccination effort in the U.S. The National Vaccine Information Center has been trying for decades to get information from pharmaceutical companies so meaningful studies can be done on the safety and effectiveness of all vaccines.
AfternoonDelight
11-Nov-09, 16:34
It would appear that some folk,in Wick have already had...if my information is correct.
It would seem so...
My 15 Yr Old with Asthma got the vaccine on Friday. No side effects apart from a sore arm for a few days.
Humerous Vegetable
11-Nov-09, 17:19
No its not :)
GPs are paid for all immunisations and vaccinations they do (even although they don't do them, it's usually the practice nurse). Under the new GP contracts, they have to hit certain targets before they get their grubby hands on the dosh...there used to be a sliding scale for certain percentages achieved.
I remember when I worked for a PCT in England, GPs started throwing patients off their books if they refused eg; child immunisation, because it meant the practice wouldn't hit the 75% and so it affected their income.
People should realise that GPs are businessmen, not philanthropists. They are in it for the money and the kudos, and not for the benefit of patients.
They are in it for the money and the kudos, and not for the benefit of patients.
How very rude and patronising. I suggest you are judging others by your own standards :roll:
Well it's been 24 hours since my jab and no side effects. I have a sore arm but I'm sure thats more from the nurse ramming the needle in than the vaccine itself... Not convinced she needed to stab me that vigorously :~(
How very rude and patronising. I suggest you are judging others by your own standards :roll:
Well it's been 24 hours since my jab and no side effects. I have a sore arm but I'm sure thats more from the nurse ramming the needle in than the vaccine itself... Not convinced she needed to stab me that vigorously :~(
I can just imagine...like throwing darts!!!If I ever actually reach that stage..I will INSIST they take care...or will do it myself!!!:D
My Dr is holding a Swine Flu clinic this Friday (Wick) and I was called and offered the vaccination.
I declined so that is one more for someone else who wants it.
GPs are paid for all immunisations and vaccinations they do (even although they don't do them, it's usually the practice nurse). Under the new GP contracts, they have to hit certain targets before they get their grubby hands on the dosh...there used to be a sliding scale for certain percentages achieved.
I remember when I worked for a PCT in England, GPs started throwing patients off their books if they refused eg; child immunisation, because it meant the practice wouldn't hit the 75% and so it affected their income. ...
Good grief, that's terrible. :eek:
[quote=Leanne;618813]That's odd - they are only starting vaccinating today. Are you under Raigmore?
The vaccinating started in Caithness General on monday afternoon for nursing staff. Yesterday was for home carers.
Disgusted with your post.....................you have a very negative view on the Gp services................i work for a gp and they not only work very very hard, but the staff involved also 'bust a gut'..............yes 'points mean pennies'.......but that is the fault of the government.......and if we dont get pennies they cana employ staff needed to run the surgeries........more to it than mets the eyes.....................and regarding the swine vacc......that is been totoally led by Raigmore.....supplies and volumes per practice are decided on at a much higher level..........
kodiak you missed one ingredient, that is mercury it is added as a preservative to extend the shelf life, for that reason alone I will not be having the jab.
im getting the vaccine tomorrow. sam got it yesterday. his arm is sore today but that is the only thing weve noticed as side effects
kodiak you missed one ingredient, that is mercury it is added as a preservative to extend the shelf life, for that reason alone I will not be having the jab.
My old chemistry teacher showed me a picture of him with his hand in a vat of mercury swirling it around. I believe he is in his mid 80s now. Mercury is toxic with multiple exposures, not the tiny amount in the vaccine. The experiments "proving" the mercury in the vaccine is at unsafe levels are usually large doses tested on rats... Hardly comparable ;)
It would seem so...
Yes it is in Wick my son has it! not nice at all:(
Floyed, hope your son has improved, is he on tamiflu? Hope so as it works quickly.
Hope your son is better soon floyed :(
Does anyone know how many confirmed cases there are in Caithness?
I had my flu jab on Friday and getting Swine Flu Jab on Monday! Apparently it's quite ok to have them so close together.
My old chemistry teacher showed me a picture of him with his hand in a vat of mercury swirling it around. I believe he is in his mid 80s now. Mercury is toxic with multiple exposures, not the tiny amount in the vaccine. The experiments "proving" the mercury in the vaccine is at unsafe levels are usually large doses tested on rats... Hardly comparable ;)
I think that your brain has been affected by the mercury in the H1N1 vaccine! :lol:
"In January 2004, residents in northern Nevada found out first hand how dangerous mercury can be when dozens of middle school children in Gardnerville were exposed to the element and the vapors it gives off.
"Less than a week later, severe poisoning from long-term exposure to mercury vapor sent a Las Vegas 17-year-old youth to a hospital's intensive care unit for a week, and the exposure may cause lifelong effects.
"The quarter cup of mercury brought to the Gardnerville school by a student contaminated not only classrooms and a school bus, but the clothing and belongings of more than 50 of his classmates.
"The state and federal governments spent more than $100,000 on decontamination efforts; the school was closed for more than a week; ..."
The whole article can be read at, http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/5762.php
I think that your brain has been affected by the mercury in the H1N1 vaccine! :lol:
"In January 2004, residents in northern Nevada found out first hand how dangerous mercury can be when dozens of middle school children in Gardnerville were exposed to the element and the vapors it gives off.
"Less than a week later, severe poisoning from long-term exposure to mercury vapor sent a Las Vegas 17-year-old youth to a hospital's intensive care unit for a week, and the exposure may cause lifelong effects.
"The quarter cup of mercury brought to the Gardnerville school by a student contaminated not only classrooms and a school bus, but the clothing and belongings of more than 50 of his classmates.
"The state and federal governments spent more than $100,000 on decontamination efforts; the school was closed for more than a week; ..."
The whole article can be read at, http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/5762.php
Oh Stavos you are sooooo good at Google. One day you will show actual, not googleed knowledge and I will develop respect for you. Until then you just appear uneducated but very good with seach engines. Laugable but not laudable....
i recived both my flu jab and the swine flu jag at the same time. my left arm is very sore from teh swine flu jab. i think everyon is having the same with the sore arm. anyone know why we all have very sore arms due to the jag? dr. said it was just the way it was prepared but wonder why?
I got a call on Friday offering me the vaccine. I'm not sure why I fit into the risk group. Middle aged, no asthma, no diabetes etc.
toodiemac
15-Nov-09, 17:36
My old chemistry teacher showed me a picture of him with his hand in a vat of mercury swirling it around. I believe he is in his mid 80s now. Mercury is toxic with multiple exposures, not the tiny amount in the vaccine. The experiments "proving" the mercury in the vaccine is at unsafe levels are usually large doses tested on rats... Hardly comparable ;)
So if you are saying the levels of mercury in a vaccine are not toxic, what is the upper limit of mercury which can "safely" be injected into the human body Leanne? Obviously the limit will be totally different for adults and children. I would think it would be different for premature babies as opposed to full-term babies as well. Has it been determined by body weight?
Does injecting mercury into a pregnant woman have an effect on the fetus? If so, does it affect the fetus differently depending of how many weeks gestation?
I didn't think it had ever been tested but I'm obviously wrong. I didn't think the safe limit for injecting aluminium has ever been tested either.
So if you are saying the levels of mercury in a vaccine are not toxic, what is the upper limit of mercury which can "safely" be injected into the human body Leanne? Obviously the limit will be totally different for adults and children. I would think it would be different for premature babies as opposed to full-term babies as well. Has it been determined by body weight?
Does injecting mercury into a pregnant woman have an effect on the fetus? If so, does it affect the fetus differently depending of how many weeks gestation?
I didn't think it had ever been tested but I'm obviously wrong. I didn't think the safe limit for injecting aluminium has ever been tested either.
Hmm there is a limit to the amount of tuna a pregnant woman can eat due to the amount of mercury in it. So surely that will affect them i some way.
oldmarine
15-Nov-09, 18:27
I think that your brain has been affected by the mercury in the H1N1 vaccine! :lol:
"In January 2004, residents in northern Nevada found out first hand how dangerous mercury can be when dozens of middle school children in Gardnerville were exposed to the element and the vapors it gives off.
"Less than a week later, severe poisoning from long-term exposure to mercury vapor sent a Las Vegas 17-year-old youth to a hospital's intensive care unit for a week, and the exposure may cause lifelong effects.
"The quarter cup of mercury brought to the Gardnerville school by a student contaminated not only classrooms and a school bus, but the clothing and belongings of more than 50 of his classmates.
"The state and federal governments spent more than $100,000 on decontamination efforts; the school was closed for more than a week; ..."
The whole article can be read at, http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/5762.php
I read the entire article word-by-word and no where did it mention that mercury used in such a small amount had an affect on any one getting flu shots. What is your reason for using scare tactics to convince people not to get flu shots. I am 84 years of age and have been getting flu shots most of my adult life. I never had any serious complications from flu shots.
Welcomefamily
15-Nov-09, 18:42
Its possible a little reaction to it, just localised as I did as well about 24 hrs after, my wife had a bit of redness within an hour.
Anyone got kids at Thurso off with a stomach bug?????
http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1481585
210 off with a stomach bug. I wonder if there a common denominator?
Does it come with a cough?
roadbowler
15-Nov-09, 19:57
My old chemistry teacher showed me a picture of him with his hand in a vat of mercury swirling it around. I believe he is in his mid 80s now. Mercury is toxic with multiple exposures, not the tiny amount in the vaccine. The experiments "proving" the mercury in the vaccine is at unsafe levels are usually large doses tested on rats... Hardly comparable ;)
What kind of logic is this Leanne? Aye and my father-in-law was telling me last week how he used pure benzene to clean fur everyday for 30 years and he's in his 80's and healthy. Does this make benzene safe Leanne?:roll:
what experiment are you speaking about? In the US they took thiomersal out of all vaccines for under 6s' because there were concerns about its safety. Why is it now in the swine flu vaccine for bairns now? What you don't seem to quite understand is that the vaccine you just took is UNTESTED. Meaning, we are the rats. Quite frankly, you do not have any business implying mercury/thiomersal is safe! Especially when everybody knows it is not! They ban mercury in barometers because it is unsafe but, now you're trying to say it is safe to be injected into the bloodstream!?:eek: This assertion is foolish considering it is well known that thiomersal is VERY toxic.
The fact that you come on here flaunting what you appear to think are credentials to give misguided and ill thought advice on vaccine safety and to use it to derogate posters who do not agree with you on the subject is reckless and irritating.
Hmm there is a limit to the amount of tuna a pregnant woman can eat due to the amount of mercury in it. So surely that will affect them i some way.
Very good point.A little knowledge can be so dangerous!!!
I read the entire article word-by-word and no where did it mention that mercury used in such a small amount had an affect on any one getting flu shots. What is your reason for using scare tactics to convince people not to get flu shots.
"Scare tactics"? Mercury has been linked to brain damage for a long time and its toxicity is well-known. Leanne's post was extremely misleading and irresponsible.
My goal was to leave people in no doubt that mercury is poisonous. I think that the article (from your neck of the woods) served that purpose very well.
Do you advocate injecting untested vaccine containing mercury, aluminium, live H1N1 virus and loads of other nasties into unborn babies, while the pharmaceutical companies busy themselves with ensuring that they are exempt from legal prosecutions? What you allow to be injected into yourself is up to you, but what basis do you have for this extension into unborn babies and pregnant women?
"Scare tactics"? Mercury has been linked to brain damage for a long time and its toxicity is well-known. Leanne's post was extremely misleading and irresponsible.
My goal was to leave people in no doubt that mercury is poisonous. I think that the article (from your neck of the woods) served that purpose very well.
Do you advocate injecting untested vaccine containing mercury, aluminium, live H1N1 virus and loads of other nasties into unborn babies, while the pharmaceutical companies busy themselves with ensuring that they are exempt from legal prosecutions? What you allow to be injected into yourself is up to you, but what basis do you have for this extension into unborn babies and pregnant women?
Stavro....at the end of the day,it really is up to the individual........I am quite happy to go and get my vacc. this afternoon.Seasonal flu 20 years ago,ruined my health/life,so can only imagine what swine flu would do to me.
I respect ur reasoning though.;)
Well had my first swine flu vacc. today...so far ..absolutely ok,no sore arm and still standing[ actually,sitting.]
I do have to have another in 3 weeks as I am immunocompromised....
Iron infusion tomorrow,,,should be fit as a flea by the end of the week..I hope!!!:)
Well had my first swine flu vacc. today...so far ..absolutely ok,no sore arm and still standing[ actually,sitting.]
I do have to have another in 3 weeks as I am immunocompromised....
Iron infusion tomorrow,,,should be fit as a flea by the end of the week..I hope!!!:)
Your going to be bouncing!!! Hope your iron infusion goes well. You should find new vigour :)
Your going to be bouncing!!! Hope your iron infusion goes well. You should find new vigour :)
Thanks,Leanne....everyone says the same!!;)
What is the virus that is hitting THS?
We got a note home about monitoring flu symptoms but no info as to whether it is swine flu in the school and my daughter reckoned about half her classmates were missing today?
tonkatojo
16-Nov-09, 22:20
Well had my first swine flu vacc. today...so far ..absolutely ok,no sore arm and still standing[ actually,sitting.]
I do have to have another in 3 weeks as I am immunocompromised....
Iron infusion tomorrow,,,should be fit as a flea by the end of the week..I hope!!!:)
Got mine at 14:00hrs today, my arm has fell off and my right leg looks like following it, my hair has fell out and I now have toothache in my new palate, What have I done !!!. ;)
PS: good luck with the iron wotsit BINBOB. I could be like you and get a second one three weeks time.
This year I have had the least reaction ever to my flu jab, usually my are gets all hot, swollen and sore but this year it's much better. Got the swine flu vaccination today and no ill effects so far, not even a sore arm, not may this continue!
Got mine at 14:00hrs today, my arm has fell off and my right leg looks like following it, my hair has fell out and I now have toothache in my new palate, What have I done !!!. ;)
PS: good luck with the iron wotsit BINBOB. I could be like you and get a second one three weeks time.
Thank u tonkatojo...hope ur arm,leg,hair,new palate ,all recover by morning!!!HAHA...
Thanks again with ur good wishes.:D.
thurso_123
16-Nov-09, 23:59
wat is the symtoms of the swine flu can any one tell me please
Here you go
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Pandemic-flu/Pages/Symptoms.aspx?WT.srch=1
This year I have had the least reaction ever to my flu jab, usually my are gets all hot, swollen and sore but this year it's much better. Got the swine flu vaccination today and no ill effects so far, not even a sore arm, not may this continue!
Oooooh dont be fooled!! :) I also thought I had got away lightly, I got mine on Saturday and even yesterday my arm was fine..... I woke up this morning and around the area is red hot and swollen about the size of the palm of my hand :eek: Eeeeouch its painful..
What is the virus that is hitting THS?
- half her classmates were missing today?
Wick High is the same. Does anyone know if schools have an obligation to inform parents if a pupil is diagnosed with swine flu?
I have no idea at all but I think it would be decent to be told. There is a vomiting bug but also a lot of them have flu type illness.
tonkatojo
17-Nov-09, 00:44
Wick High is the same. Does anyone know if schools have an obligation to inform parents if a pupil is diagnosed with swine flu?
Would this not be stating to the parent what is obvious as the child would have symptoms ?.
Well if there is flu and a vomiting bug many parents may wrongly assume it is swine flu or on the other hand it could be swine flu and parent thinks it is an unfortunate mix of both bugs.
tonkatojo
17-Nov-09, 00:51
Well if there is flu and a vomiting bug many parents may wrongly assume it is swine flu or on the other hand it could be swine flu and parent thinks it is an unfortunate mix of both bugs.
Aye but both lots of symptoms would warrant a trip to the doc's surely ??.
You cannot go into the doctors surgery with flu type symptoms. I personally would not hesitate to phone the doctor if I suspected it in my child but as I say if people think it is not here then they may just assume it is both bugs and not want to bother the doctor.
tonkatojo
17-Nov-09, 01:00
You cannot go into the doctors surgery with flu type symptoms. I personally would not hesitate to phone the doctor if I suspected it in my child but as I say if people think it is not here then they may just assume it is both bugs and not want to bother the doctor.
Strange parents that won't call the doc's, even if only for advice. I know my wife or me wouldn't have mucked about when our lad was young, even though the "swine flu bug" wasn't about then, it could easily be menangitis ( forgive spelling) or the likes.
Be under no doubt...............swine flu is in Caithness. If any doubt , ring your GP surgery, dont go in !
Difficult to tell the difference with normal flu, but the very high temp and associated symptoms are a good guide
Thank you for clearing that up May,
I don't know how much truth there is in it but the kids are saying there were 234 absences in THS yesterday and 14 teachers. Something nasty going round if this is the case.
Over 200 off in Wick Hight the last few days as well.
Had my swine flu jab yesterday. Arm is killing me, also got a fash and temp while I was working nightshift last night. We to be this morning and still feeling the effects today.
Doc told me yest if I was the least bit concerned about my kids having Swine Flu to call them. So far so good, everyone seems fine.
Thank you for clearing that up May,
I don't know how much truth there is in it but the kids are saying there were 234 absences in THS yesterday and 14 teachers. Something nasty going round if this is the case.
My son said the same thing-he also said that if another 80 pupils were off tomorrow then the school would be closed-may be wishful thinking though :) x
was watching the grampian news and it said confirmed that a teacher from wick high has swine flu.
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