View Full Version : English
Due to an argument I'm having elsewhere, I'm interested in what people on here would choose. Basically I'm wondering if you would go for an apostrophe + s for names ending with an s or just an apostrophe. For example, "Tom Waits' music" or "Tom Waits's music". Note all, that I choose the greatest ever singer-songwriter ever as an example (although he really has nothing to do with it). Note also that there is no argument on whether that previous statement is true or not.
Anyway, I'd always been taught apostrophe only. How about you? Also, I thought I'd add that neither are incorrect. According to most style guides it is just that, a style issue. There doesn't seem to be a consensus either way.
And I realise there is an apostrophe missing in the last answer.
Metalattakk
05-Oct-09, 02:45
There is absolutely no such thing as "Tom Waits's music", for crying out loud.
What do they teach the kids these days? How do they not know these basic rules? I take it Grammar is now rendered obsolete.
Personally, I blame the parents. And Maggie Thatcher. And Maggie Thatcher's parents.
And the internet.
There is absolutely no such thing as "Tom Waits's music", for crying out loud.
What do they teach the kids these days? How do they not know these basic rules? I take it Grammar is now rendered obsolete.
Personally, I blame the parents. And Maggie Thatcher. And Maggie Thatcher's parents.
And the internet.
Well most manual of styles would disagree with you - the use of apostrophe s seems to be given as much weight as only an apostrophe in almost all MoSs around. I would personally say it is ludicrous, but oh well.
The Pepsi Challenge
05-Oct-09, 03:36
Agree with Metalattakk: grammar is slowly becoming obsolete.
Mrs Bucket
05-Oct-09, 07:33
There are some people who just cant get their head around things like apostrophes why has it got to be an issue as long as you can understand what is meant.
My fave is potato's - they are taking over the world.
There is absolutely no such thing as "Tom Waits's music", for crying out loud.
What do they teach the kids these days? How do they not know these basic rules? I take it Grammar is now rendered obsolete.
Personally, I blame the parents. And Maggie Thatcher. And Maggie Thatcher's parents.
And the internet.
As e teacher of English I can tell you that 'Tom Waits's Music' is entirely acceptable. Equally it is in this case acceptable to put the apostrophe after the s in Waits as in Waits'.
In other words both ways are acceptable in a name ending in an s e.g. James' book or James's book are both correct.
Due to an argument I'm having elsewhere, I'm interested in what people on here would choose. Basically I'm wondering if you would go for an apostrophe + s for names ending with an s or just an apostrophe. For example, "Tom Waits' music" or "Tom Waits's music". Note all, that I choose the greatest ever singer-songwriter ever as an example (although he really has nothing to do with it). Note also that there is no argument on whether that previous statement is true or not.
Anyway, I'd always been taught apostrophe only. How about you? Also, I thought I'd add that neither are incorrect. According to most style guides it is just that, a style issue. There doesn't seem to be a consensus either way.
And I realise there is an apostrophe missing in the last answer.
I could not vote as two of the option os correct. It is completely acceptable in words ending on s to either place the apostrophe after the s or to add another s and place the apostrophe before that s.
There is absolutely no such thing as "Tom Waits's music", for crying out loud.
What do they teach the kids these days? How do they not know these basic rules? I take it Grammar is now rendered obsolete.
Are you sure? I was taught that with names (nouns are different) either way is acceptable and it's 24 years since I left school. On the other hand maybe my memory isn't what it was. :)
An apostrophe here or there, with or without an added "s" doesn't change a meaning much. My pet hate is when the person writing doesn't know the difference between "their" and "there"..........THERE would be a world of difference if they were talking about THEIR money for example.;)
An apostrophe here or there, with or without an added "s" doesn't change a meaning much. My pet hate is when the person writing doesn't know the difference between "their" and "there"..........THERE would be a world of difference if they were talking about THEIR money for example.;)
My pet hate is the use of the word 'of' instead of 'have' (and I've seen it written that way) seems to be used by kids so often nowadays that it will soon become official, as is the word (or none word as the case might be) Jamp instead of jumped.
tartanyorkie
05-Oct-09, 10:48
I always thought it was the apostrophe after the s only.
I was taught the s's version only but then I learnt English in Germany... didn't even know that s' was correct. Learn something new every day.
What drives me insane is people mixing up brought and bought, seems very common in teenagers although it's so easy to remember which is which if you know the present tense.
Humerous Vegetable
05-Oct-09, 12:08
I was taught that the apostrophe goes before the "s" in the singular - ie Donnie's baseball bat, and after the "s" in the plural- ie all Donnie's mates' baseball bat.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A790175&clip=1 I agree with Pepsi; grammer is going down the pan with this texting generation.
Metalattakk
05-Oct-09, 12:24
As e teacher of English I can tell you that 'Tom Waits's Music' is entirely acceptable. Equally it is in this case acceptable to put the apostrophe after the s in Waits as in Waits'.
In other words both ways are acceptable in a name ending in an s e.g. James' book or James's book are both correct.
If that is the case (and I'm not entirely sure it is - it certainly wasn't when I was taught English) then the world is going to hell in a handcart.
Yes where's the problem with that!
redeyedtreefrog
05-Oct-09, 19:04
What a mundane argument.
redeyedtreefrog
05-Oct-09, 19:06
My pet hate is the use of the word 'of' instead of 'have' (and I've seen it written that way) seems to be used by kids so often nowadays that it will soon become official, as is the word (or none word as the case might be) Jamp instead of jumped.
I've always thought thing like "could of" are a mispronunciation/mishearing of "Could've"
Kevin Milkins
05-Oct-09, 19:24
It's a bit of a laugh for a Welshman in Caithness reading a thread about the correct pronunciation's of English.:lol: (Or is it pronunciations?):roll:
I've always written the word with the apostrophe after the s but when If I were to say the word, sometimes it sounds better to say it as though it was 's.
I have also read that it is even correct in some circumstances to miss out the apostrophe altogether. So for example the food chain "Macdonalds".
What I think sounds ridiculous (even if it is correct) is when people say fishes or sheeps. It even seems correct to make up your own word and call it a metaphor. I remember reading in a poem in English, "tigered stripes".
As e teacher of English I can tell you that 'Tom Waits's Music' is entirely acceptable. Equally it is in this case acceptable to put the apostrophe after the s in Waits as in Waits'.
In other words both ways are acceptable in a name ending in an s e.g. James' book or James's book are both correct.
And here was me thinking that this was exactly what Alan16 said at the start.
I thought teachers always said 'read the question'? tee hee[lol]
George Brims
05-Oct-09, 19:51
Someone mentioned style books. Those should be used with caution, since they don't all agree with each other.
There's a good discussion of this apostrophe issue in "Eats, Shoots and Leaves". I had always thought that "Waits' music" was more strictly correct, but that "Waits's music' is permissible, on grounds of being more conversational. Of course if either is used in written dialogue, it might convey something about the speaker's level of education (or pretentiousness).
The whole argument goes out the window if you have a lisp. :eek:
Have you not got something better to do than nit pick about grammer alan 16?:roll:
Have you not got something better to do than nit pick about grammer alan 16?:roll:
Better than nit picking about nit picking ;)
Have you not got something better to do than nit pick about grammer alan 16?:roll:
Vistravi.......look what you hev done.........you have stirred up our resident teenagers [lol]
Have you not got something better to do than nit pick about grammer alan 16?:roll:
It's not really nit picking, is it? I'm saying: "A is right, and B is right, but what do you prefer?". Nit picking would be me pointing out that grammar is spelt with 2 as, not an a and an e, and that Alan16 really deserves a capital as it is a proper noun, and also seeing as it is my name it isn't really open to interpretation with the spelling, so there shouldn't really be a space between the Alan and the 16. That would be nit picking. :D
Have you not got something better to do than nit pick about grammer alan 16?:roll:
It's (note the apostrophe) grammar not grammer Vistravi.
Better than nit picking about nit picking ;)
I agree.
Vistravi.......look what you hev done.........you have stirred up our resident teenagers [lol]
Our teenagers are our future Golach. I don't always agree with their views but surely we should be encouraging them to contribute to the forum?
Our teenagers are our future Golach. I don't always agree with their views but surely we should be encouraging them to contribute to the forum?
Moira, If our teenagers on here are our future, god help the world and the Org, [lol]
Moira, If our teenagers on here are our future, god help the world and the Org, [lol]
Don't worry.. they're not our future... they are also our past and present. I hope that makes you happier :)
Jing's, crivven's and help ma boab, are no we al supposed til be speakan e scottash way a Caithno-Dundingin accent and loose apopstrophe's e day biy's?
Jing's, crivven's and help ma boab, are no we al supposed til be speakan e scottash way a Caithno-Dundingin accent and loose apopstrophe's e day biy's?
That is the single most hideous sentence I've ever seen.
Moira, If our teenagers on here are our future, god help the world and the Org, [lol]
You've missed the point lol
Don't worry.. they're not our future... they are also our past and present. I hope that makes you happier :)
You've not. Sorry for the delay but I had to check that your apostrophes were in the right place.
Mrs Bucket
06-Oct-09, 07:56
The whole argument goes out the window if you have a lisp. :eek:
I love your wit Jox hope you dont mind me calling you Jox
I love your wit Jox hope you dont mind me calling you Jox
You can call me through the week too. :D
An apostrophe here or there, with or without an added "s" doesn't change a meaning much. My pet hate is when the person writing doesn't know the difference between "their" and "there"..........THERE would be a world of difference if they were talking about THEIR money for example.;)
Fir their and there" see the sign on the right of the Co-op entrance.
The general easy rule of thumb for apostrophes is - To whom or what does the following noun or gerund pertain? Add apostrophe + s
As an example, another sign which I found curious, given its location, was an expensive illuminated sign in Melven's Bookshop years ago, which read "Childrens' Books".
Now if they asked the simple question - To whom or what do the books pertain? They would have said - "The children", and added apostrophe + s. - simple.
If that is the case (and I'm not entirely sure it is - it certainly wasn't when I was taught English) then the world is going to hell in a handcart.
Nothing new in this. Been the case for at least 60 yers and I guess you will find both versions in the oldest of standard English reference books. Not worth going to the loft to check as I know I am correct!
Humerous Vegetable
06-Oct-09, 16:20
Fir their and there" see the sign on the right of the Co-op entrance.
The general easy rule of thumb for apostrophes is - To whom or what does the following noun or gerund pertain? Add apostrophe + s
As an example, another sign which I found curious, given its location, was an expensive illuminated sign in Melven's Bookshop years ago, which read "Childrens' Books".
Now if they asked the simple question - To whom or what do the books pertain? They would have said - "The children", and added apostrophe + s. - simple.
Children are plural, therefore the apostrophe goes after the s. If it was "the child's book", it would go before. It's not a hard rule to understand. My personal hate is "he was sat" instead of "he was sitting".
While we are all complaining.. I also hate it when I hear the word "jamp". The problem is, no-one or very rarely does someone correct others. A countless number of times, I have also heard teachers using incorrect vocabulary.. you would think any teacher, regardless to what they teach would have to have a thorough understanding of English. One thing about modern languages such as French that I dislike is the fact (now maybe this is just me) that it makes our spelling of English words worse. I kept getting into the habit of mixing up the spelling of "professor" with "professeur". I could spell it correct but I had to think twice before putting the word down on paper. Is it more important how we speak or is it more important how we write things down?
helenwyler
06-Oct-09, 20:55
Children are plural, therefore the apostrophe goes after the s. If it was "the child's book", it would go before. It's not a hard rule to understand. My personal hate is "he was sat" instead of "he was sitting".
Not true, HV :D. It should be "the children's book". Google The Children's Society ;).
A general rule of thumb is:
1. Find the owner - the children
2. Add the apostrophe - the children'
3. Add s if there isn't one already - the children's
Similarly 'the men's suits' and 'the women's coats'. Apostrophe before the s even though they are plural nouns.
Also 'a wolf in sheep's clothing' and 'wolves in sheep's clothing' - same position of apostrophe as you can't have sheeps :D.
It's not really nit picking, is it? I'm saying: "A is right, and B is right, but what do you prefer?". Nit picking would be me pointing out that grammar is spelt with 2 as, not an a and an e, and that Alan16 really deserves a capital as it is a proper noun, and also seeing as it is my name it isn't really open to interpretation with the spelling, so there shouldn't really be a space between the Alan and the 16. That would be nit picking.
[lol]
How do you know i didn't spell your name like that on purpose now? :lol:
Good answer by the way, what i expected. ;)
George Brims
07-Oct-09, 01:56
It's a bit of a laugh for a Welshman in Caithness reading a thread about the correct pronunciation's of English.:lol: (Or is it pronunciations?):roll:
In "The Silver Darlings" (I think) a young Gaelic speaker from Dunbeath goes to Wick to seek out a doctor, and is worried about his English. When he gets there, he is pleasantly surprised to find his English is no worse than those living there.
George Brims
07-Oct-09, 01:58
Also 'a wolf in sheep's clothing' and 'wolves in sheep's clothing' - same position of apostrophe as you can't have sheeps :D.
Nonsense - my dad had hundreds of sheeps! (I hate sheeps as a result, unless they come with gravy and tatties.)
George Brims
07-Oct-09, 02:01
That is the single most hideous sentence I've ever seen.
My worst ever sentence (spoken by my dad). "Here, your hands are small, come and get the afterbirth oot o this coo." I still shudder at the memory of that afternoon. The phrase "in the firing line" crops up too.
This whole thread has been too hoity-toity. Have I lowered the tone far enough yet?
My worst ever sentence (spoken by my dad). "Here, your hands are small, come and get the afterbirth oot o this coo." I still shudder at the memory of that afternoon. The phrase "in the firing line" crops up too.
This whole thread has been too hoity-toity. Have I lowered the tone far enough yet?
You've put me off the KitKat I was eating, that is for certain.
The Pepsi Challenge
07-Oct-09, 04:37
For me, the apostrophe has become a bit of a greedy, over-protective, overly possessive punctuation mark in recent times. Apostrophe, however, is also one of my favourite Frank Zappa album.
Metalattakk
07-Oct-09, 10:09
For me, the apostrophe has become a bit of a greedy, over-protective, overly possessive punctuation mark in recent times. Apostrophe, however, is also one of my favourite Frank Zappa album.
The much maligned apostrophe is not as over-used as the redundant comma though, is it Pepsi. ;)
The Pepsi Challenge
07-Oct-09, 10:19
The much maligned apostrophe is not as over-used as the redundant comma though, is it Pepsi. ;)
Granted; though, the comma, is, for me, kind of a bad habit: like smoking, or licking the dinner plate, clean.
:)
Metalattakk
07-Oct-09, 10:47
:D
You're needing some semi-colonic irrigation too. ;)
My other pet hate is the over-use of the hyphen.
36-year-old mother-of-two etc etc in almost every newspaper article. OK, the first part adds up to an adjective, and is to some extent excused, the following has no need to be hyphenated.
I think my generation was probably the last to have formal grammar at primary school - do others remember analysing sentences - I loved it, as I like pulling things apart and putting them back together again. Language is so structured, it is almost mathematical, and like all such systems - music etc, an understanding of the structure is essential to being able to produce great literature, music, maths.
The beautiful subjunctive - who uses it now - it is the moinor key of language, which cannot be described, but immediately creates the mood.
"If music be the food of love ... " : try replacing "be" with "is" - not the same, is it?
It is a great pity to throw all of that out, and most teachers (who are pretty well all younger than I), would not know how to teach good grammar, having not been brought up with it.
We even had a skipping game that went :
John Sinclair* is a noun,
parse him up and parse him down
singular number, hopeless case
according to his ugly face
* no-one in particular!
The Pepsi Challenge
07-Oct-09, 13:22
:D
You're needing some semi-colonic irrigation too. ;)
And you ken where you can put your full stops, buster. :)
Metalattakk
07-Oct-09, 14:59
:D
I must admit, I am rather fond of the liberal use of elliptical aposiopesis...
That is the single most hideous sentence I've ever seen.
Flattery will get you nowhere with me young man. There's more hideous on this forum every day.
:D
I must admit, I am rather fond of the liberal use of elliptical aposiopesis...Me too but please don't apply it to your beating heart---it can be dangerous...or so they say....
If that is the case (and I'm not entirely sure it is - it certainly wasn't when I was taught English) then the world is going to hell in a handcart.
Not sure how old you are Metalattack...........but I think I am older, and this certainly was when Miss Mackenzie taught me at Thurso High School.
This is slightly off topic but I enjoyed the following excerpt from an interview with George Gunn that I came across when reading the thread about Pepsi's review of a recent play....
AJ: Did you go to Thurso for high school?
GG: Yes, and that was important, because I had an inspirational teacher there called Margaret Gunn, or as we used to call her, Granny Gunn. She came from Keiss originally, and her husband and some of her family were lost at sea in a herring drifter, I think less than a week after her marriage. The tragedy was also a liberation for her, though, because she then went off to Edinburgh University and studied Classics, but if the tragedy hadn’t happened, she would probably have spent her days in Keiss. She came back and taught at Thurso High School, and she was great one for local history and also things like The Iliad and The Odyssey.I remember Margaret Gunn and I'd been told she'd lost her husband very young but I didn't know anything else about her. She didn't like me and always made me sit in the front row where she could keep an eye on me. The feeling wasn't mutual but I made sure I got an A in O Grade English just to spite her. :D
October 2005 Interview: George Gunn Part 1 (http://www.hi-arts.co.uk/oct05_interview_george_gunn.html) and Part 2 (http://www.hi-arts.co.uk/nov05_interview_george_gunn.html). The extract is from Part 2.
Metalattakk
09-Oct-09, 10:12
Not sure how old you are Metalattack...........but I think I am older, and this certainly was when Miss Mackenzie taught me at Thurso High School.
Miss Lyall (Mrs Doake?), Mrs Omand and good ol' "Handlebars" Clarke, in my day. I can't remember a Miss Mackenzie at all.
Not sure basic grammar and all that wasn't taught in primary school though.
IIRC Miss Mackenzie lived on Sir John Square, on the side opposite Durran's but I wasn't taught by her either.
John Baikie
09-Oct-09, 10:18
It's not really nit picking, is it? I'm saying: "A is right, and B is right, but what do you prefer?". Nit picking would be me pointing out that grammar is spelt with 2 as, not an a and an e, and that Alan16 really deserves a capital as it is a proper noun, and also seeing as it is my name it isn't really open to interpretation with the spelling, so there shouldn't really be a space between the Alan and the 16. That would be nit picking. :D
This is the funniest post on here for some time :D
dietcokegirl
09-Oct-09, 10:57
IIRC Miss Mackenzie lived on Sir John Square, on the side opposite Durran's but I wasn't taught by her either.
Miss Mackenzie is now Mrs. McLean i think.
I could spell it correct but I had to think twice before putting the word down on paper.
Ooo that's my pet hate - the word is correctly. I correct you so you can spell it correctly ;)
Ooo that's my pet hate - the word is correctly. I correct you so you can spell it correctly ;)
Sorry, should have realised myself since the verb was spell and I described the verb so it should have been an adverb. But in that case, the word you should have used is "corrected" rather than correct, since you corrected me and then mentioned after that you correct(ed) me, rather than before and I'm going to stop typing now because this is a rather long sentence. ;)
Sorry, should have realised myself since the verb was spell and I described the verb so it should have been an adverb. But in that case, the word you should have used is "corrected" rather than correct, since you corrected me and then mentioned after that you correct(ed) me, rather than before and I'm going to stop typing now because this is a rather long sentence. ;)
Well actually there isn't anything wrong with the use of "correct" rather than "corrected". It is an odd way of phrasing it, but it is consistently present tense, so "I correct you" makes sense even if it sounds ridiculous. I personally would have said "corrected" but it works either way.
The Pepsi Challenge
09-Oct-09, 15:09
As a sub-editor, am loving this thread. Carry on, folks.
Humerous Vegetable
09-Oct-09, 15:12
Not true, HV :D. It should be "the children's book". Google The Children's Society ;).
A general rule of thumb is:
1. Find the owner - the children
2. Add the apostrophe - the children'
3. Add s if there isn't one already - the children's
Similarly 'the men's suits' and 'the women's coats'. Apostrophe before the s even though they are plural nouns.
Also 'a wolf in sheep's clothing' and 'wolves in sheep's clothing' - same position of apostrophe as you can't have sheeps :D.
No, you are wrong. "The children" is one group, therefore singular. Any noun preceeded by the definate article is treated as singular - eg; exercise is good for the heart although it implies all or many hearts.
Anyway, that ends my visit to Caithness.org for this month because
a) I'm starting to sound pedantic and
b) this site seems to be infested with tracking cookies and I have to spend hours scanning after every visit.
Well actually there isn't anything wrong with the use of "correct" rather than "corrected". It is an odd way of phrasing it, but it is consistently present tense, so "I correct you" makes sense even if it sounds ridiculous. I personally would have said "corrected" but it works either way.
Well I had to find something to be picky about didn't I :Razz I couldn't find anything else.
You will notice I replaced a full stop with an emoticon in this message :)
Well I had to find something to be picky about didn't I :Razz I couldn't find anything else.
You will notice I replaced a full stop with an emoticon in this message :)
True. And a question mark.
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