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cuddain
03-Sep-09, 13:49
today the s.n.p. set out the plans for a referendum on scottish independence.Good thing or bad thing what are all your views i.e.should the scottish people decide or do you think the politicians should decide for us what are all your views on this important matter

weeboyagee
03-Sep-09, 13:58
Not again!

*sigh*

Let's be independent - that way we'll never have the question to answer again. Hang on - just thought - it would then change to be - "Who's for unification again". Sheeeessshhhhh - is there no peace in life?

WBG :cool:

buddyrich
03-Sep-09, 14:00
It'd be a good idea if the snp werent going to be in charge of an independant scotland.

tonkatojo
03-Sep-09, 14:46
If the way the SNP handled the Libyan bloke is the way things will happen woe betide us. Just a thought is this the new definition of "getting off scot free" LOL ;)

I think WBA has it just about right, the grass is always greener and all that.

pentlandlad
03-Sep-09, 17:34
It would be nice to be able to have the choice of a vote, rather than the Westminster party's puppets obeying there London chiefs and deciding what they want, and not letting the people decide. Better still the SNP should resign if they do not get there right to vote, and then we can have an election.

redeyedtreefrog
03-Sep-09, 18:23
I think independence would be bad because then we'd not be part of the UK and we wouldnt have nice things like the NHS, Nick Griffin and the Royal Mail. Also, we'd be stuck with STV with no chance of ITV. And we'd be a pretty tiny country and would fail miserably.

Rheghead
03-Sep-09, 18:29
The thought of all that oil being in our territorial waters and not having full ownership over it won't be very good after independence.

tonkatojo
03-Sep-09, 18:53
The thought of all that oil being in our territorial waters and not having full ownership over it won't be very good after independence.

Have the territorial waters been altered again, where is king Arthur when you want him Hmm. ;)

gleeber
03-Sep-09, 19:23
Whats wrong with a united Kingdom?
Whats wrong with one language and one nation under a well tested monarchy?
If history has taught us anything its that nationalism can cause serious disputes amongst neighbours.
I worry about nationalism especially the stuff we canna see. :(
That being said as a political partly I could vote for them if they took independance off their minifesto. There's someting very Scottish about them but I feel just as Scottish as they do and I shudder at the thought of a President of Scotland under a new constitution with no political ties to the rest of the United Kingdom.
And yes, before anyone accuses me, it's a niggling fear.

Rheghead
03-Sep-09, 22:03
Have the territorial waters been altered again, where is king Arthur when you want him Hmm. ;)

Never said the territorial waters had been changed.;)

piratelassie
03-Sep-09, 22:57
Surely the time is right for Independance.Every other small country in Europe seems to thrive, Scotland has around 6 million population, and vast resourses of energy, food production etc., plus we would have our own voice in Europe. Reap our own harvest and ring our own till....:grin:

Rheghead
03-Sep-09, 23:05
, plus we would have our own voice in Europe.

Would we? I think we might be at the back of the list. Having said that, Scotland is very anti European so that is two kai-bosches on that theory.:)

johndsmith
03-Sep-09, 23:26
What does Alex Salmond mean by independence ? He wants us the Scottish nation to become independent from the yoke of English rule only for him to exchange it for the bigger yoke of europe where we will be ruled by an unelected bureaucracy. Where is the independence in that? Does he not think that we as a true independent nation can determine our own future and run our own affairs?

piratelassie
03-Sep-09, 23:47
Is Westminster not ruled by Europe ????

Rheghead
04-Sep-09, 00:16
Is Westminster not ruled by Europe ????

Is that what you want?

David Banks
04-Sep-09, 00:17
"Europe" could get messy if independence is achieved.

Would we want to join EU, or would we be better off - like Norway ?

Anne x
04-Sep-09, 00:22
We are a United Kingdom long may it stay that way , gosh we have lost have of the Commonwealth to Independance surely not Scotland

piratelassie
04-Sep-09, 00:41
why dont jocks get off our knees and look after ourselves

Leanne
04-Sep-09, 10:05
As an English person now living in Scotland - things are a lot better up here than "down there". If you vote for independence do so carefully. Financial independence may not necessarily be a good thing...

Whitewater
04-Sep-09, 10:19
Independence under the SNP would be joke, I was really looking forward to them getting into power and govening us. What a fool I was.
I like Scotland the way it is with our own government for domestic issues, and I also think that England could be broken up into three or four areas of self government similar to ours.
If we were independent we would be out of Europe and have to reapply. Would we ever get back in? Scotland does very well under the Westminster government and we also get our share of goodies from Europe. When you talk about unelected European bureaucrats governing us, have you forgotten about the unelected Gaelic quango trying to force all sorts of nonsensical excrement upon us.
I am born a Scot, very proud of it, my ancestors have been traced back for many centuries in Scotland, I am also British and very proud of that as well. Independence NO. Have a referendum by all means so that the SNP can get an idea of what the people of Scotland think of them.

Whitewater
04-Sep-09, 10:28
Welcome Leanne, you are very welcome to live in Scotland, it is a wonderful country as it is, and I'm really glad you like it. I think we are a lot better "up here" than "down there", but we are a lot better because we have the support and protection of Wesminster, and also the ability to do our own thing within certain limits. We don't ever want to loose this wonderful set up.

Tom Cornwall
04-Sep-09, 10:45
"Europe" could get messy if independence is achieved.

Would we want to join EU, or would we be better off - like Norway ?

david, you obviously haven't seen the price of everyday things in Norway...

tonkatojo
04-Sep-09, 11:13
Whats wrong with a united Kingdom?
Whats wrong with one language and one nation under a well tested monarchy?
If history has taught us anything its that nationalism can cause serious disputes amongst neighbours.
I worry about nationalism especially the stuff we canna see. :(
That being said as a political partly I could vote for them if they took independance off their minifesto. There's someting very Scottish about them but I feel just as Scottish as they do and I shudder at the thought of a President of Scotland under a new constitution with no political ties to the rest of the United Kingdom.
And yes, before anyone accuses me, it's a niggling fear.

I totally agree, mind you I don't think they want to ditch HRH.

tonkatojo
04-Sep-09, 11:18
why dont jocks get off our knees and look after ourselves

What you doing on your knees lassie :eek:

piratelassie
04-Sep-09, 13:33
does anybody really think that an independant scotland would have a problem with membership to the european union. i believe europe would be queueing up to invite us in.

northener
04-Sep-09, 14:07
does anybody really think that an independant scotland would have a problem with membership to the european union. i believe europe would be queueing up to invite us in.

Why would they be queueing up?

NickInTheNorth
04-Sep-09, 14:35
I think I'm against independence, but would be very interested to see the arguments from both sides of the debate.

One thing that I really detest however is politicians trying to decide that we should not have the right to make the decision for ourselves.

Bring on the referendum and let the people of Scotland decide if they want independence or not.

Rheghead
04-Sep-09, 14:58
Whatever the outcome, we should all get behind the result 100%.

Fly
04-Sep-09, 23:04
I certainly would not vote for an independent Scotland. United we stand, divided we fall, and I don't think any of the four countries in the UK can do without the other three. Before anyone pulls me upon this I am referring to Northern Ireland as a country.
As far as the EU is concerned the sooner we can get out of it (if possible) the better we will be after reading the latest lot of rubbish to come out of it.

gleeber
04-Sep-09, 23:40
Whatever the outcome, we should all get behind the result 100%.
Nationalism's a funny thing. You dont seem to have any? :confused
Ive got nationalistic tendencies but they're beginning to expand. I think it's fantastic how all the countries in the European union have a common bond. Thinking about it now only 70 years after the start of the Second World War and the state we were in then, who would be daft enough to go back to that kind of relationships.
The futures together I would say and I suspect the majority think the same. I hope so anyway.

peter macdonald
05-Sep-09, 13:10
" Originally Posted by David Banks View Post
"Europe" could get messy if independence is achieved.

Would we want to join EU, or would we be better off - like Norway ?
david, you obviously haven't seen the price of everyday things in Norway..."


Bearing in mind that Norways average wage is 32300 NKR a month or 3286.44 Pounds according to EURES and Norge Sentralbyra In the UK according to ASHE (National Statisics UK) the UK wage is 1976 Pounds or 19273 NKR a month
This for the year 2008
Also it should be borne in mind that the gender pay gap in Norway is less than the UK as is regional variations.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2642836/North-South-wealth-divide-is-widest-for-60-years.html
Perhaps the most telling stat is the wealth divide in Norway is stable and quite narrow where as in the UK the gap is still as wide as it was in the early 1960s and in fact could end up similar to that in Victorian times
http://www.savingstoolbox.com/2008/07/01/the-wealth-divide-increases/
PM
sources
Norges Sentralbyra,EURES (EU employment research) National Statistics Online, Daily Telegraph, BBC,American Consumer Information LLC

Leanne
05-Sep-09, 18:35
Welcome Leanne, you are very welcome to live in Scotland, it is a wonderful country as it is, and I'm really glad you like it. I think we are a lot better "up here" than "down there", but we are a lot better because we have the support and protection of Wesminster, and also the ability to do our own thing within certain limits. We don't ever want to loose this wonderful set up.

Thankyou Whitewater - I'm actually returning to the family roots (I'm only English through an accident of birth...)

Scotland has the best situation in that there is a degree of parliamentary independence but monetary wise England pays more per capita than what is received per capita.

For example, running hospitals in an extreme rural are is much more costly than in a city. If you take an emergency call for blood for example: to get this from Inverness you are looking at around £200 for a taxi. If the situation is urgent enough to warrant a police escort the costs mount considerably. In a city none of the surrounding DGHs are more than about 30 mins away from the nearest major blood centre so you are looking at a taxi of around £20-30. The bigger hospitals treat more patients so the NHS gets "better value for money". I know it's a horrid way to look at it finacially, but then conversely there are huge benefits of rural hospital in that waiting lists tend to be lower and I have found them to be much friendlier.



Bearing in mind that Norways average wage is 32300 NKR a month or 3286.44 Pounds according to EURES and Norge Sentralbyra In the UK according to ASHE (National Statisics UK) the UK wage is 1976 Pounds or 19273 NKR a month
This for the year 2008
Also it should be borne in mind that the gender pay gap in Norway is less than the UK as is regional variations.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2642836/North-South-wealth-divide-is-widest-for-60-years.html
Perhaps the most telling stat is the wealth divide in Norway is stable and quite narrow where as in the UK the gap is still as wide as it was in the early 1960s and in fact could end up similar to that in Victorian times
http://www.savingstoolbox.com/2008/07/01/the-wealth-divide-increases/
PM
sources
Norges Sentralbyra,EURES (EU employment research) National Statistics Online, Daily Telegraph, BBC,American Consumer Information LLC

Hmmm wheras house prices apprear comparable (uk house price is on average €2473.88 per m2 and Norway is €2066 m2) the cost of living is considerably more in Norway. Take for instance pints (easy to find the cost of) a pint in Norway will cost you €6.95, in the UK about €3.16. Last time I went to Norway I found that you basically double the cost of everything! The wages might be good but the cost of living is horrific!

peter macdonald
05-Sep-09, 20:45
OK I take your point Leanne but I dont take the price of a pint as being a real measure of quality of living The UN have said the Norwegian quality of life is the best in in the world ahead of Sweden
http://www.norway.org/News/archive/2004/200404Norway_undp.htm In no way do I want to get into this (Sincerely and I wont) but my definition of costs does not revolve round the cost of a pint
Ive drunk too much moonshine to go there .........from Stavanger to Tromso to Skarhamn to Fargelanda to Kungshamn (which was by far and away the best!!)
PM

Leanne
05-Sep-09, 23:21
The UN have said the Norwegian quality of life is the best in in the world ahead of Sweden

I was merely trying to point out that that very quality of life (which I fully agree with you about) comes at a cost. In your original post you only quoted salaries (interestingly not quality of life) but we both know there is more to it than salary - cost of living pays a bigger part.


but my definition of costs does not revolve round the cost of a pint


Of course it doesn't but it is something that is easy to compare. I did try bread and milk but I didn't buy either when I was over there. I though of looking up the average price of coffee but no joy - there was a lovely site though comparing the prices of beer. I think you may take things far too seriously... Maybe you should have a beer? ;)

Moi x
05-Sep-09, 23:27
Thankyou Whitewater - I'm actually returning to the family roots (I'm only English through an accident of birth...)

Scotland has the best situation in that there is a degree of parliamentary independence but monetary wise England pays more per capita than what is received per capita.
Have you forgotten that oil revenues are not included in the usual Scottish per capita figures or is that an accident of birth too?

Moi x

crayola
05-Sep-09, 23:36
Arguments over who pays more between England and Scotland are not very meaningful unless at least some of the taxes from North Sea oil production are included in Scotland's GDP. You can argue until you're blue in the face (which I am anyway) but you'll get absolutely nowhere if you don't include them.

Leanne
05-Sep-09, 23:37
Have you forgotten that oil revenues are not included in the usual Scottish per capita figures or is that an accident of birth too?

Moi x

Touche ;) I know nothing about oil - I only comment on things I have first hand knowledge of :)

Edit - just had a look on the westminster stats site and it seems that they are open and honest about expenditure:

Population England - 60950000 - 86.5% of the population - receives 81.1% total income generated - 96% per capita
Population Ireland - 1760000 - 2.4% of the population - receives 3.6% total income generated - 133% per capita
Population Scotland - 5100000 - 7.1% of the population - 9.9% total income generated - 119% per capita
Population Wales - 2900000 - 4.1% of the population - 5.4% total income generated - 112% per capita

(Their numbers not mine)

They state nothing about revenue from oil though...

Moi x
05-Sep-09, 23:43
You won't get very far in Independence debates if you don't know about oil. It's all about oil!

Leanne
06-Sep-09, 00:10
You won't get very far in Independence debates if you don't know about oil. It's all about oil!

Isn't it always! If it isn't oil it's heroin/ poppy fields... :roll:

northener
06-Sep-09, 00:38
You won't get very far in Independence debates if you don't know about oil. It's all about oil!

Aye, and that's what makes it so laughable. Basing the whole future of a newly independant nation on a finite resource and not much else.

Moi x
06-Sep-09, 00:43
Aye, and that's what makes it so laughable. Basing the whole future of a newly independant nation on a finite resource and not much else.
It's finite but it's also big and no-one really knows quite how big. You are right but Norway has done well in a similar situation.

Oh God, why can I never resist the temptation to advocate the Devil when he is in trouble? :lol:

Moi x

Leanne
06-Sep-09, 00:57
Oh God, why can I never resist the temptation to advocate the Devil when he is in trouble? :lol:

Moi x

I fight for the underdog quite frequently. I need to learn to state my point and run. Debate causes me frustration when it goes round in circles. Especially when I find myself arguing both sides of the debate by the end :roll:

Moi x
06-Sep-09, 01:05
I fight for the underdog quite frequently. I need to learn to state my point and run. Debate causes me frustration when it goes round in circles. Especially when I find myself arguing both sides of the debate by the end :roll:
I would agree with you but we're supposed to be on opposing sides of this debate so I can't. :lol:

Moi x

Rheghead
06-Sep-09, 01:07
I would agree with you but we're supposed to be on opposing sides of this debate so I can't. :lol:

Moi x

Very good viewpoint doctor, ty :Razz

crayola
06-Sep-09, 12:50
Edit - just had a look on the westminster stats site and it seems that they are open and honest about expenditure:

Population England - 60950000 - 86.5% of the population - receives 81.1% total income generated - 96% per capita
Population Ireland - 1760000 - 2.4% of the population - receives 3.6% total income generated - 133% per capita
Population Scotland - 5100000 - 7.1% of the population - 9.9% total income generated - 119% per capita
Population Wales - 2900000 - 4.1% of the population - 5.4% total income generated - 112% per capita

(Their numbers not mine)

They state nothing about revenue from oil though...Indeed not. The 'total income generated' they quote will be total UK income including all of the tax income from oil. An independent Scottish government would receive significantly more than 7.1% of the total oil taxation and this changes the balance. How much it changes the balance depends on how much more than 7.1% the Scottish government would receive.

Oddquine
06-Sep-09, 13:08
Touche ;) I know nothing about oil - I only comment on things I have first hand knowledge of :)

Edit - just had a look on the westminster stats site and it seems that they are open and honest about expenditure:

Population England - 60950000 - 86.5% of the population - receives 81.1% total income generated - 96% per capita
Population Ireland - 1760000 - 2.4% of the population - receives 3.6% total income generated - 133% per capita
Population Scotland - 5100000 - 7.1% of the population - 9.9% total income generated - 119% per capita
Population Wales - 2900000 - 4.1% of the population - 5.4% total income generated - 112% per capita

(Their numbers not mine)

They state nothing about revenue from oil though...

I'm not getting into this independence or not argument again.......but if you are interested in facts and figures not produced by the Westminster Government.......try

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2008/06/18170334/5

The method of calculation can be argued..but at least they show how the calculations were made, which is more than Westminster does.

And I would assume that those producing the Scottish figures are as well qualified as those producing the Westminster ones. :D

Rheghead
06-Sep-09, 14:41
They state nothing about revenue from oil though...

Probably for very good reasons. 70% of the north sea oil has already been extracted in such a relatively space of time of ~30 years. The income of oil is fairly insignificant anyway according to the Scottish government source.

A decision to go independent therefore shouldn't depend on oil if it is to be a good one.

northener
06-Sep-09, 15:02
Probably for very good reasons. 70% of the north sea oil has already been extracted in such a relatetively space of time of ~30 years. The income of oil is fairly insignificant anyway according to the Scottish government source.

A decision to go independent therefore shouldn't depend on oil if it is to be a good one.

My point exactly, Rheggers, old chap.

I'm not saying I'm for or against Independance when I question peoples' constant tiresome dragging up of the 'our oil' mantra. I'd like to know what viable finacial basis is being used to fund this independance, because bandying about oil revenue as the Holy Grail of nationalism by itself would be ridiculous to me.
I'm not interested in historical nationalistic claptrap - that is looking backwards and not forwards. What I am interested is who's going to pay for it?

I've an open mind on Independance, if it is in Scotlands national and fiscal interests to be independent, then I'm all for it. If it is based on nothing more than misty-eyed flagwaving and constant wailing about how hard done by Scotland is - then you can stick independance up your jacksey, stay with the UK until you can be sensible about it.


I read a comment in the Scotsman the other day which I felt would temper the enthusiasm of a lot of the more rabid nationalist types:

"Alex Salmond must wake up in a cold sweat when he thinks that one day he may have to decide what size Scotlands Armed Forces are going to be and what role they will play on the International stage."

Not word for word - but that was the gist of it. Interesting thought, yes?

tonkatojo
06-Sep-09, 16:16
Aye, and that's what makes it so laughable. Basing the whole future of a newly independant nation on a finite resource and not much else.

Salmond could have a few more home coming do's, if the yanks forgive him.;)

crayola
06-Sep-09, 16:36
I read a comment in the Scotsman the other day which I felt would temper the enthusiasm of a lot of the more rabid nationalist types:

"Alex Salmond must wake up in a cold sweat when he thinks that one day he may have to decide what size Scotlands Armed Forces are going to be and what role they will play on the International stage."

Not word for word - but that was the gist of it. Interesting thought, yes?Indeed it is but wouldn't Salmond regard it as 'unpardonable folly' for Scotland to have an army that's capable of going somewhere and doing something?

tonkatojo
06-Sep-09, 16:45
My point exactly, Rheggers, old chap.

I'm not saying I'm for or against Independance when I question peoples' constant tiresome dragging up of the 'our oil' mantra. I'd like to know what viable finacial basis is being used to fund this independance, because bandying about oil revenue as the Holy Grail of nationalism by itself would be ridiculous to me.
I'm not interested in historical nationalistic claptrap - that is looking backwards and not forwards. What I am interested is who's going to pay for it?

I've an open mind on Independance, if it is in Scotlands national and fiscal interests to be independent, then I'm all for it. If it is based on nothing more than misty-eyed flagwaving and constant wailing about how hard done by Scotland is - then you can stick independance up your jacksey, stay with the UK until you can be sensible about it.


I read a comment in the Scotsman the other day which I felt would temper the enthusiasm of a lot of the more rabid nationalist types:

"Alex Salmond must wake up in a cold sweat when he thinks that one day he may have to decide what size Scotlands Armed Forces are going to be and what role they will play on the International stage."

Not word for word - but that was the gist of it. Interesting thought, yes?


Does that mean you want to stick with the UK until they have outrun their usefulness ?
Its interesting the point you made about using the armed forces, Salmond could have a rotation going on with the Edinburgh tattoo being held every weekend instead of annually.

northener
06-Sep-09, 17:08
Does that mean you want to stick with the UK until they have outrun their usefulness ?

Well, I suppose that's one way of putting it. I'd prefer to say that you go with what is best for the nation at that moment in time. Only an idiot would fling themselves into Independance if it wasn't going to work well. It's been noticable that Iceland is no longer held up as a model of independance by nationalists...I wonder why......



Its interesting the point you made about using the armed forces, Salmond could have a rotation going on with the Edinburgh tattoo being held every weekend instead of annually.

Now that's not a bad idea........

Rheghead
06-Sep-09, 18:37
Will having a relatively large amount of roads and funded by substantially less people mean that independence won't be such a good idea after all?:confused

Oddquine
07-Sep-09, 11:20
Will having a relatively large amount of roads and funded by substantially less people mean that independence won't be such a good idea after all?:confused

Why not ask all those who think Caithness should be a Stand Alone Authority? ;)

tonkatojo
07-Sep-09, 11:30
[QUOTE=northener;590546]Well, I suppose that's one way of putting it. I'd prefer to say that you go with what is best for the nation at that moment in time. Only an idiot would fling themselves into Independance if it wasn't going to work well. It's been noticable that Iceland is no longer held up as a model of independance by nationalists...I wonder why......


What would be your reaction if the independence vote is no, and a few years down the line the oil runs out and the rest of the UK take your attitude and say we have to do what's best for them and do a referendum to ditch Scotland ?.

Iceland, the original statement from salmond made me laugh, Now it looks like his Irish role model is pinching Scottish jobs with that eye lens company, what will his reaction be I wonder ?.

tonkatojo
07-Sep-09, 11:34
Will having a relatively large amount of roads and funded by substantially less people mean that independence won't be such a good idea after all?:confused

I wouldn't worry to much Reghead when the oil runs out it will be shanks's or bicycles only, or horse n cart. :eek:

Leanne
07-Sep-09, 18:32
I wouldn't worry to much Reghead when the oil runs out it will be shanks's or bicycles only, or horse n cart. :eek:

Well there's plenty of horses in Caithness :)