mass murder in new orleans?

[rich]

This is an amazing story. What do you think?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/magazine/30doctors.html

[Blast!]

This is an amazing story. What do you think?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/magazine/30doctors.html

Aye, I've always found mass murder "amazing" :roll:

[Whitewater]

It is an amazing story. What a hellish situation for these doctors and nurses to be in, not knowing when, or if help was ever going to arrive. Do we try to sustain life at all costs or should we be selective? I'm sure there will be many arguments both for and against.
Talking personally, I was unfortunate enough to watch my father suffer and die from a merciless illness, where he became a virtual vegetable before he eventually died. Had he known what was to become of him he would have definitely gone for euthanasia had it been available to him.
But I digress, there is a great moral question in the above story. Did they follow the best course of action to save as many of the less seriously ill patients first. I think that in their own minds they took the correct action. I also think that they did, but it must have been an awful decision to make when their vocation is to save and/or extend the lives of people, terminally ill or otherwise. I would not have liked to have been in their position and had to make that decision.

[rich]

I just cant get my head around this. Right now it feels as if it was some sort of God like complex on the part of some physicians, brought on by the horror of the situation.
But let me pose a question - were there no religious advisers in the hospital? And if so would they have made a difference?
I like to think of myself as a liberal but there's a moment in the account of what happened when a nurse comments on the presence of all these syringes and is ignored by the doctor, that is pure horror.
And how many physicians were there in this hospital? Could nobody be found to say stop.
Of course by writing the above I am allying myself with the coroner and the investigators and I am not altogether comfortable with that. But was this murder? I would have to say yes. And would any of our hospitals caught up in a disaster have done any better? I would have to say I don't know.

[gleeber]

"In the four years since Katrina, Pou has helped write and pass three laws in Louisiana that offer immunity to health care professionals from most civil lawsuits — though not in cases of willful misconduct — for their work in future disasters, from hurricanes (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/h/hurricanes_and_tropical_storms/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) to terrorist attacks to pandemic influenza. The laws also encourage prosecutors to await the findings of a medical panel before deciding whether to prosecute medical professionals. Pou has also been advising state and national medical organizations on disaster preparedness and legal reform; she has lectured on medicine and ethics at national conferences and addressed military medical trainees. In her advocacy, she argues for changing the standards of medical care in emergencies. She has said that informed consent is impossible during disasters and that doctors need to be able to evacuate the sickest or most severely injured patients last — along with those who have Do Not Resuscitate orders — an approach that she and her colleagues used as conditions worsened after Katrina."

I think the above paragraph from the report is most important. Most civil authorities, and Highland Council will be no exception, will have a fall back plan to bring into operation in the event of some disaster or another. Depending on the type of disaster ordinary people could well be recruited to shoot their neighbours if their behaviour was a danger to the majority. That wouldnt be murder because extreme situations require extreme action and you can be sure there will be a booklet buried in some government department somewhere giving people the authority to take whatever action is necessary.
The scenario in the story from New Orleans has to be murder because there was no formal laws in place to cover it.

[rich]

I dont know about this one, Gleeber. The medical staff must have known more efficient help - however delayed -was on the way.

Also working out the priority of who gets out first when the rescuers arrive is not really the point here. The point is killing patients who are elderly and sick because - and I hate to say this - they were in the way.

We live in a society in which medicalization of the aging process, add to that the dying process, is widespread. That's why this is an important story.

Is there anyone out there in the Org with experience of palliative care medicine?

[Whitewater]

I personally do not have any experience of palliative care medicine. However, I had an elderly friend who was looked after by his wife, sadly his wife died and a few weeks after this he was placed in care for his own good. He had no idea of time and used to go out walking at all hours, he was quite a lively fellow and in the early stages of dimentia. All his family had moved out of the area, and he refused to go with them as he would have had no friends in his new surroundings, it was thought that the best thing was for him to be put into care and be looked after. About two weeks after he was placed in care I went to visit him, I found him like a zombie, he had no idea where he was or what he was doing there. On asking what was wrong with him I was told that he had been wandering about making a pest of himself and trying to get out, they told me he had been sedated to keep him calm, and after a few days when he got used to his surroundings he would be weaned off the sedatives. What sort of dose was he being given by the time he had to be weaned off?? On looking around I noticed many more people in a similar state. I got in touch with his family, he has has now been removed from that particular nursing home and happily a place was found for him in another one. He is a changed person, he is allowed to do their gardening, tidy up inside and encouraged to do any small jobs around the place. Takes part in all the fun and entertainment which is laid on for him and all the others, and appears to be thriving. They make use of his energy and tire him out naturally and he appears to be as happy as a pig in (well we all know what pigs wallow in)
Why was the first place so different?, could they not be bothered looking after the people properly? What amazes me is they seem to be able to get away with it, it is within the law, they are inspected regularly.
It seems that in many places now if you get old and bothersome and become a nuisance to the staff you just get drugged so all you can do is sit around and gaze into space. There seems to be no patience with or a place for old people any more. This is really worrying, particularly with an aging population. I'm getting a bit long in the tooth myself, but I'm lucky I guess, my wife is still a fit young young thing (younger than me anyway)
It seems that in this modern world there is no place for the old, the sick and the infirm. No doubt there are still many dedicated doctors and nurses, but unfortunately the world is now being run by accountants, they always go for the cheapest option, unfortunately old people cost the medical and other services a lot of money. As gleeber has said all councils will have fall back plans for emergencies, disasters and old people.