"Obsession" with expenditure on Gaelic.

[cuddlepop]

Its been announced that Mike Watson the culture secretary is to give HC£1.5 million towards a new gaelic primary in Portree and one in Fort William.The education minister said there was no "new money" so I wonder how much extra HC are injecting into this project.

Cant comment about Fort William but Portree has an excellent "mixed" school here which is run by a devoted head teacher and recieved a glowing report from HMIe.
There are mixed feelings in the community about this move and I can see resentment brewing as main stream budgets are being slashed across Highland but they can afford to throw money at gaelic.Uig primary is earmarked for closuer and Staffin is hoping to become mainly gaelic with an English medium attached,just like Sleat.

Gaelic unless spoken in the home is very difficult to pick up.Children who have started gaelic medium have had to switch to mainstream because its not being spoken at home.

Are there more gaelic speakers now than there were before they "threw" money at this,has anyone researched into its sustainability as a lanuage.It stikes me thats its becoming a "black hole".:eek:

It also tends to be "incomers" that chose to educate their kids in gaelic,probably because they now stand a better chance of being educated.:(

[weeboyagee]

How can provision in reaction to demand be an "obsession" on the part of the provider?

Are you aware of the reasons for the closure in Uig? From what I am aware of, there are a lot of supporters for the provision of Gaelic medium schools in Skye and Lochaber. Whilst roadsigns are a totally different issue, Gaelic medium is the way forward - where requested, not enforced. There are now over 60 GM units in Scotland.

WBG :cool:

[Murdina Bug]

You just beat me to it Cuddlepop! I was just about to come on and rant about this too!

I think the Highland Council should give priority funding to improving/replacing existing school fabric and fittings ahead of building new dedicated Gaelic facilities. This approach just smacks of 'look what we are doing to promote Gaelic' - along the same approach of relabelling road signs. There is no substance to what they are doing. If there is a genuine demand to learn Gaelic then it is teachers they should be providing. Don't build special facilities, just get the teachers into the schools we have. Even a mobile teacher once a week in every class is going to cover more pupils than half a dozen specialist schools spread across the Highlands and Islands area.

Integrating Gaelic into the everyday curriculum would show true intent to promote the language. Building elite facilities and putting up signs that few can read will not.

[crayola]

I apologise in advance if this gives you a heart attack Weebeegeebee :cool: but I agree with you, at least as far as Skye is concerned. I don't know enough about Lochaber to have an opinion.

Investing in Gaelic medium schools in Gaelic speaking areas sounds like a fine way to spend public money. :)

[tonkatojo]

How can provision in reaction to demand be an "obsession" on the part of the provider?

Are you aware of the reasons for the closure in Uig? From what I am aware of, there are a lot of supporters for the provision of Gaelic medium schools in Skye and Lochaber. Whilst roadsigns are a totally different issue, Gaelic medium is the way forward - where requested, not enforced. There are now over 60 GM units in Scotland.

WBG :cool:

While I personally have an interest in Gaelic, I still do not see the point in being taught it in school, the world is awkward enough, with out having to revive languages that have been used in the past, more so when the people who are being taught it (GAELIC)can communicate very nicely with everyone already. Surely after school clubs, Gaelic only interest clubs, and the likes would suffice to keep the language going without resorting to the expensive ways HRC are going to.
My boy used to come home from primary school (Skye) singing Gaelic nursery rhymes (not that he could sing) but when given the choice he soon dropped the subject for a modern language. That being his choice no influence from me, now he remembers little or none of Gaelic.

[The Pepsi Challenge]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/8219224.stm

£1.5m cash boost for new Gaelic schools in the highlands.

Could that £1.5m not have been spread out more widely to school that really need it?

[badger]

If every school in the Highlands had excellent buildings / facilities and sufficient good teachers with small classes then there could be no objection to new Gaelic schools. As it is we have many totally inadequate buildings (look at Wick HS) and a shortage of teachers resulting in large classes so children are being short changed. In these circumstances a few teachers travelling round the county to give Gaelic classes to those who want them is quite enough.

We will have to live with the legacy of underfunding education for years. Why can't Govt./Councils get their priorities right?

[The Pepsi Challenge]

Heartedly agree with you Badger.

[cuddlepop]

How can provision in reaction to demand be an "obsession" on the part of the provider?

Are you aware of the reasons for the closure in Uig? From what I am aware of, there are a lot of supporters for the provision of Gaelic medium schools in Skye and Lochaber. Whilst roadsigns are a totally different issue, Gaelic medium is the way forward - where requested, not enforced. There are now over 60 GM units in Scotland.

WBG :cool:


Uig has a school roll of 7.The building is falling apart,its situated at the top of a hill that makes going up it difficult in winter.

Portree has an excellent reputation and the building is in good working order so you tend to find parents bus their kids to Portree.
Is this the start of closing small rurual schools and using the space that gaelic medium kids will vacate when the new school is built.Where will they recruit teachers from as there is a shortage at present?.

I know you are passionate about gaelic WBG but surely you can understand the angry non gaelic speakers feel when they see money being thown at the education budget for gaelic and cut for English.

I dont have the relevent documents at present but I think when it went out to consultation it wasnt all in favour of a new gaelic school.:(

[Each]

It was announced on Radio Nan Gaidheal this morning that demand for places at Gaelic School in Inverness is growing so fast that the school role is expected to exceed the capicity of the school next year.

The school is now having to look at options for increasing its capacity.

It just goes to show that demand exists for Gaelic Education, particularly when people people are aware that it is available within their community.

Kids have to be educated - in whatever language - therefore the issue is not a matter of cost but one of choice.

Their going to be building a new school at Milton of Leys as well - you wouldn't argue that there is spare capacity at other schools in the area therefore the school isn't required - !

Or would you say that its the parents fault for choosing to live in a place that doesn't have a school that meets their needs.

[cuddlepop]

It was announced on Radio Nan Gaidheal this morning that demand for places at Gaelic School in Inverness is growing so fast that the school role is expected to exceed the capicity of the school next year.

The school is now having to look at options for increasing its capacity.

It just goes to show that demand exists for Gaelic Education, particularly when people people are aware that it is available within their community.

Kids have to be educated - in whatever language - therefore the issue is not a matter of cost but one of choice.

Their going to be building a new school at Milton of Leys as well - you wouldn't argue that there is spare capacity at other schools in the area therefore the school isn't required - !

Or would you say that its the parents fault for choosing to live in a place that doesn't have a school that meets their needs.

No its everybody's choice to educate their child in what ever lanuage they want but if mainstream budget its been cut and gaelic budget increasing how can they justifi that when the % is still higher per pupil in English rather than gaelic.
Portree primary will have their school roll cut in half but will still have to maintain a large building.Its all well and good building a new school but extra money will be required to "run" the new school,where's that coming from?

I'm sorry but I think educating children in gaelic medium is "trendy" at the moment.

[The Pepsi Challenge]

Education should be a right; not a privilege.

[Each]

Portree primary will have their school roll cut in half but will still have to maintain a large building.Its all well and good building a new school but extra money will be required to "run" the new school,where's that coming from?.

It happens all the time - but its not a Gaelic issue - Inverness College are planning to do exactly the same thing, abandoning all their buildings in town in order to move to a new campus at vast cost.

A couple of years ago I was asked to look at the impact of this on the Midmills building - A fine building too - but completely impractical for most uses today - sadly there is a good chance it will lie vacant for an extended period gradually deteriorating.

Hope it doesnt go the same way as the old brewery in Thurso.

[crayola]

This is money from Holyrood that has been ring-fenced for spending on Gaelic. It's not new in Holyrood but it's new in Highland. It's money that wouldn't be spent in Highland otherwise, so take it and spent it on education. Do it imaginatively and everyone will benefit irrespective of whether they have the Gaelic or not.

It's better spent on Skye than sitting in Bòrd na Gàidhlig's trenchcoat pockets. [disgust]

[kmahon2001]

As I said in another, similar, thread, I am not against promoting the Gaelic language and culture, in fact I'm all for it if handled properly. However, closing many village schools but then announcing huge amounts of money to create Gaelic language schools, is totally wrong. Speaking Gaelic is a matter of choice not necessity but education is a necessity for all children. The kids who will be educated in these Gaelic schools will all be perfectly able to speak English and so could go to an English language school to get their education. Why should non Gaelic speaking children suffer the loss of their school or put up with substandard schools that are in desperate need of modernising or updating just to give a small elite group of people the choice of educating their children in the Gaelic medium. The Gaelic language schools are similar to religious schools where it is the choice of the parents to send their children to a particular religious school rather than a state school - it is a choice to send your child to a Gaelic school, not a necessity, and therefore these schools should not be state funded, or at the very least not funded by removing funding from mainstream schools.

[crayola]

Lots of people speak Gaelic on Skye and many of them would like their kids to be educated in their first language which is also their everyday language. Is it not reasonable for the state to pay for a school to do that?

[Cattach]

It was announced on Radio Nan Gaidheal this morning that demand for places at Gaelic School in Inverness is growing so fast that the school role is expected to exceed the capicity of the school next year.

The school is now having to look at options for increasing its capacity.

It just goes to show that demand exists for Gaelic Education, particularly when people people are aware that it is available within their community.

Kids have to be educated - in whatever language - therefore the issue is not a matter of cost but one of choice.

Their going to be building a new school at Milton of Leys as well - you wouldn't argue that there is spare capacity at other schools in the area therefore the school isn't required - !

Or would you say that its the parents fault for choosing to live in a place that doesn't have a school that meets their needs.

Inverness is not a great example as it is growing at such a rate and it is likely it is peopele moving from the west and the Isles that is increaing thwe gaelic population and not a 'local' demand.. The percentage of the population actually wanting gaelic education may still not be that high. With more Polish people than gaelic speakers in Inverness maybe it is Polish School they should be building if the requirement is purely demand and numbers!

[cuddlepop]

Inverness is not a great example as it is growing at such a rate and it is likely it is peopele moving from the west and the Isles that is increaing thwe gaelic population and not a 'local' demand.. The percentage of the population actually wanting gaelic education may still not be that high. With more Polish people than gaelic speakers in Inverness maybe it is Polish School they should be building if the requirement is purely demand and numbers!


Your absolutly right Cattach the second lanuage in Inverness is Polish you just have to take a walk round the city center to here them.
I've not heard anyone speak gaelic though,maybe they only speak it in the school they attend.:confused
Have you noticed too that the mothers at the school gates speak English to their kids?
Its a "fashionable accessory".
Crayola right Skye has gaelic speakers but they're not in the magority.
Sleat even though its the "gaelic capital" didnt get their exclusive school it was insisted it had an English medium attached to it.:Razz;)

[crayola]

I agree that Inverness isn't a particularly good example. From the accents I hear in the street, the 'new Invernessians' are mainly from areas south of the Highlands. Many of them are trying to 'go native' and some think they can do this by sending their offspring to Gaelic medium schools.

The Polish population of Scotland is transient and is already dropping.

[crayola]

Crayola right Skye has gaelic speakers but they're not in the magority.
Sleat even though its the "gaelic capital" didnt get their exclusive school it was insisted it had an English medium attached to it.:Razz;)I know they're not in the majority but they are a substantial minority. Would you only accept a Gaelic school if they were the majority?

[kmahon2001]

I know they're not in the majority but they are a substantial minority. Would you only accept a Gaelic school if they were the majority?

Yes - if it was to be a state funded school. Even those Gaelic speakers on Skye also speak English, so there is no need for special Gaelic medium schools to be provided by the state. If we were talking about state funded Polish medium schools, no one would support them because everyone would expect Polish children to learn English in order to communicate with the rest of us.

This is still all down to personal choice, rather than necessity. If Gaelic were the only language of the people on Skye, that would be a different matter, but it isn't - they all speak English.

[cuddlepop]

When I was growing up in Glasgow I went to a Prodi school and you were expected to "dislike" the ones that went to the catholic schools.

There's a similar divide over here between gaelic and non gaelic schools and if the "extra preverential" treatment continues it will be them that has and them that doesnt.

"gaelic gets everything" is a favourite war cry over here.:(

Crayola all we ask is that in times of educational cutbacks why give gaelic extra money?
.
The Capital expenditure comes from central budget but the "running" costs will not .:roll:

[Cattach]

I know they're not in the majority but they are a substantial minority. Would you only accept a Gaelic school if they were the majority?

I think you will find, looking at census statistics, it is not a substantial minority and even less are fluent or anything like it in gaelic.

[cuddlepop]

Hc are now in the process of looking at potential sites to build this new school in Portree.

They will have to chose a greenfield site or the "community land" on the new build up Home Farm thats suppose to be for the "majority" to "build" a community facility.
The Free Church were suppose to be building there but as yet no progress.
Our dentist is havent to relocated to the old tennis courts in bayfield and the school dentist is having to come out of the hospital as the Health Board are determined to remove the services fom our local hospital....which they're determined to close.:~(...but we'll get a brand new gaelic school.:mad:

I looking forwarrd to reading the Free Press today.:roll:

[crayola]

I think you will find, looking at census statistics, it is not a substantial minority and even less are fluent or anything like it in gaelic.
As always, it's easy to put different slants on census figures but I did check them before I posted. The 2001 census reports that circa 40% of the population of Skye claimed to be able to read, write or speak some Gaelic. I would call that a substantial minority.

Statistical semantics aside, I do share your concern about the fluency of many of those claiming to have the Gaelic. I can quite reasonably claim some reading ability in at least a couple of European languages that I am totally unable to speak or write in, but there's no way I would be fit for education in either of them.

[crayola]

Hc are now in the process of looking at potential sites to build this new school in Portree.

They will have to chose a greenfield site or the "community land" on the new build up Home Farm thats suppose to be for the "majority" to "build" a community facility.
The Free Church were suppose to be building there but as yet no progress.
Our dentist is havent to relocated to the old tennis courts in bayfield and the school dentist is having to come out of the hospital as the Health Board are determined to remove the services fom our local hospital....which they're determined to close.:~(...but we'll get a brand new gaelic school.:mad:

I looking forwarrd to reading the Free Press today.:roll:
Cuddlepop, I wonder if you could help paint a picture of education on Skye for those of us that aren't resident there.

I'd like to know how many primary schools there are, where are they are situated, whether they are in dire need of upgrading, and how many children attend each one.

Similarly for high school provision.

I can probably find most of this information on the internet but it would be interesting to read your perceptions of the situation.

Also, what percentage of the population would you estimate can hold a simple face to face conversation in Gaelic? I'm not looking for true literacy or fluency, just an ability to understand and speak some Gaelic in everyday situations.

Thanks,
C x

[tonkatojo]

As always, it's easy to put different slants on census figures but I did check them before I posted. The 2001 census reports that circa 40% of the population of Skye claimed to be able to read, write or speak some Gaelic. I would call that a substantial majority.

Statistical semantics aside, I do share your concern about the fluency of many of those claiming to have the Gaelic. I can quite reasonably claim some reading ability in at least a couple of European languages that I am totally unable to speak or write in, and there's no way I would be fit for education in either of them.

40% is not a majority, it would be a substantial minority. The remaining 60% would be the majority surely ?.

[crayola]

40% is not a majority, it would be a substantial minority. The remaining 60% would be the majority surely ?.
Oops, I meant minority. Thanks, C x

[Tom Cornwall]

if Scotland got it's independence from the rest of the Uk, and had to join the EC as a separate entity, would someone stand a better chance of a job over there if they could speak Gaelic or English...I somehow doubt it...

[cuddlepop]

Cuddlepop, I wonder if you could help paint a picture of education on Skye for those of us that aren't resident there.

I'd like to know how many primary schools there are, where are they are situated, whether they are in dire need of upgrading, and how many children attend each one.

Similarly for high school provision.

I can probably find most of this information on the internet but it would be interesting to read your perceptions of the situation.

Also, what percentage of the population would you estimate can hold a simple face to face conversation in Gaelic? I'm not looking for true literacy or fluency, just an ability to understand and speak some Gaelic in everyday situations.

Thanks,
C x

I can tell you is that there is one high school in Portree which is a brand new build.
The primary in Portree is in good condition and well kept.Havent been in anyother school apart from Uig which is earmarked for closuer so dont think I can.comment.
I dont mix in the gaelic "sector" so couldnt inform you of fluency but like I said before,no one speaks it at the school gates.:roll:
Older people when the want a "private" conversation revert back to the gaelic though.:lol:

I predict all rural schold within a certain area will be closed and kids bused to Portree as afterall what will they do with a half empty school, it will still need heated.

[crayola]

Thanks cuddlepop, I'll find all the other information and the numbers from the internet.