Health services poll

[joxville]

I'm starting this poll on behalf of tonkatojo

1 NHS only
2 Private only
3 Private & NHS

Could people please give their preference to the above and if possible their reasons.
I would have liked to have posted a POLL on this but do not know how (DUH), perhaps Crayola would do it for me. LOL. :grin:

My personal view is there should be no private whatsoever, NHS only, this includes all aspects of the NHS/dentists included.

[tonkatojo]

I'm starting this poll on behalf of tonkatojo

1 NHS only
2 Private only
3 Private & NHS

Could people please give their preference to the above and if possible their reasons.
I would have liked to have posted a POLL on this but do not know how (DUH), perhaps Crayola would do it for me. LOL. :grin:

My personal view is there should be no private whatsoever, NHS only, this includes all aspects of the NHS/dentists included.

Thanks JOX.

My view is as above. It should be free for all UK citizens, Based on clinical need, no queue jumping because of your status including MPs,Royalty,celebrities ETC.

[Alice in Blunderland]

I have voted for both.

The NHS is there for all however if money was no object then the option to go private is fine for those who can afford it.:)

[DOCTOR]

It is giving choices to people.

The people who have money and private healthcare are also UK citizens who have 'Earned' their money. They have also paid heavily into the NHS through taxation.They are major contributors to the purse of 'taxpayer'.
If you take this choice away then there would be no difference between a free democratic country and a state governed country like communist countries where everyone is equal.

There will be no reward for bettering oneself which will have a negative effect on the progress of people within society.

What will you move onto next no private education ?

[tonkatojo]

It is giving choices to people.

The people who have money and private healthcare are also UK citizens who have 'Earned' their money. They have also paid heavily into the NHS through taxation.They are major contributors to the purse of 'taxpayer'.
If you take this choice away then there would be no difference between a free democratic country and a state governed country like communist countries where everyone is equal.

There will be no reward for bettering oneself which will have a negative effect on the progress of people within society.

What will you move onto next no private education ?

You are trying to put more into the debate than was intended, communism does not come into the equation nor do I advocate it. there is no debate in my mind or this poll on the subject of education. Sometimes giving people choices is the wrong decision, where peoples health comes into any debate ones wealth or lack of it should not influence the treatment, hence that's why I say there should be no private health or a two tier system, morally I think it is wrong. There are other ways of disposing of the rich's wealth that is entirely up to the individual but not where health is concerned everyone should be treat as "equal". I am only speaking of the UK, other nations is their own concern.

[DOCTOR]

You are trying to put more into the debate than was intended,

With the subject of NHS its not as simple as 1. 2. 3.

Healthcare and provision has in itself limitations due to Government financial restraints.

It is for the government and politicians to streamline the resources required to run the NHS (or the role model as suggested by you .) It will need lots of money and lots more trained staff to run it. :)

[tonkatojo]

With the subject of NHS its not as simple as 1. 2. 3.

Healthcare and provision has in itself limitations due to Government financial restraints.

It is for the government and politicians to streamline the resources required to run the NHS (or the role model as suggested by you .) It will need lots of money and lots more trained staff to run it. :)

Exactly, but private health only makes the staffing situation worse. I say private maybe has a place in the NHS the likes of vanity surgery, ivf, vanity dentistry, for instance should be paid for into the NHS, the likes shouldn't be taking resources from the NHS , but once again that is only my opinion.
I know it is only a program but the "royal" on tv is a good example of how the basics should be, but much better financed.
The last paragraph is intended in a light hearted way.
By the way it was reported that the 2/3 of Tory MPs are advocating tax relief for private health, now that is a perfect example of the rich looking after their own. Pretty sad in my eyes.

[DOCTOR]

Exactly, but private health only makes the staffing situation worse. I say private maybe has a place in the NHS the likes of vanity surgery, ivf, vanity dentistry, for instance should be paid for into the NHS, the likes shouldn't be taking resources from the NHS , but once again that is only my opinion.
I know it is only a program but the "royal" on tv is a good example of how the basics should be, but much better financed.
The last paragraph is intended in a light hearted way.
By the way it was reported that the 2/3 of Tory MPs are advocating tax relief for private health, now that is a perfect example of the rich looking after their own. Pretty sad in my eyes.

Private health has nothing to do with staffing shortages.

There is currently shortage of trained medical and nursing staff in NHS. The trained medical staff to fill the vacant NHS posts is very difficult to recruit from overseas due to new, tough immigration rules.It is a good news as no more overseas doctors will come and serve NHS taking British jobs ( good immigration control ) but bad news for patient care.

My advice is don't vote Tory if you find the tax relief disagreeable. However you advocate rules looking after less well off but disagree with rules looking after slightly better off. :confused

[tonkatojo]

Private health has nothing to do with staffing shortages.

There is currently shortage of trained medical and nursing staff in NHS. The trained medical staff to fill the vacant NHS posts is very difficult to recruit from overseas due to new, tough immigration rules.It is a good news as no more overseas doctors will come and serve NHS taking British jobs ( good immigration control ) but bad news for patient care.

My advice is don't vote Tory if you find the tax relief disagreeable. However you advocate rules looking after less well off but disagree with rules looking after slightly better off. :confused

Yes you are right regarding health issue rules, there should be no difference, wealth should not be a factor.

Here is a scenario for you, the said consultant has seen two people with the same life threatening situation, one can only wait for the NHS the other can pay for immediate treatment private, now this is the same consultant/surgeon, how can any one say it is not immoral to treat the paying patient first. Even if it is in his time off.
And I do realise not all doctors/consultants are the same where private practice is concerned.

[DOCTOR]

Here is a scenario for you, the said consultant has seen two people with the same life threatening situation, one can only wait for the NHS the other can pay for immediate treatment private, now this is the same consultant/surgeon, how can any one say it is not immoral to treat the paying patient first. Even if it is in his time off.
And I do realise not all doctors/consultants are the same where private practice is concerned.


There is no dilemma in this scenario. If both patients are suffering from the same 'life threatening condition', they both will be treated with the same urgency.Both will get the same treatment but may be in different facilities in the same time-frame.

Life threatening conditions get the top priority in NHS. There is no queue for these patients with life threatening conditions.

If the said consultant were to treat the paying patient in his time off, his colleagues in the NHS hospital are on call for the other patient you mentioned who will be referred immediately to them.

[tonkatojo]

There is no dilemma in this scenario. If both patients are suffering from the same 'life threatening condition', they both will be treated with the same urgency.Both will get the same treatment but may be in different facilities in the same time-frame.

Life threatening conditions get the top priority in NHS. There is no queue for these patients with life threatening conditions.

If the said consultant were to treat the paying patient in his time off, his colleagues in the NHS hospital are on call for the other patient you mentioned who will be referred immediately to them.

Except at weekends when most hospitals go into sleep mode because the said consultant and others have their time off to do this other work as they do not want to work weekends.

I think I or we should agree to disagree on the subject.

[Alice in Blunderland]

Except at weekends when most hospitals go into sleep mode because the said consultant and others have their time off to do this other work as they do not want to work weekends.

I think I or we should agree to disagree on the subject.

Hospitals never go into sleep mode they scale back services eg no out-patient clinics etc. If you were to become serious at any point over a weekend you will be seen and treated.

There is always a consultant on call for emergencies who will be there within the hospital during weekends or at the end of a phone ready to attend if needed . They mostly work on a rota which allows them a weekend off and if they chose to work elsewhere in that weekend off is that not their own time to do with as they please?

The NHS may not be perfect but at least we have an NHS where according to 'clinical need' patients are seen assessed and treated. In many other countries patients are seen assessed given a shopping list and told to go away and buy everything right down to the needles and plasters and come back when you have bought it all, or as in America lets check how you are with insurance first. The ability to treat them is there but unless they can afford it they are not treated.

In all areas in work and life there is often room for improvement and with the NHS I feel it is in funding not being enough and reaching the right place as in patient care, however this is life and it isn't perfect.

For me if it was my family, sick and needing help and I had the resources and ability to go private and get the best for them as fast as possible then too darn right Id do it, in an instant, no questions asked about being fair or not selfish I know, but life and there would be a few out there who given the ability would do the same. :)

[tonkatojo]

There is always a consultant on call for emergencies who will be there within the hospital during weekends or at the end of a phone ready to attend if needed . They mostly work on a rota which allows them a weekend off and if they chose to work elsewhere in that weekend off is that not their own time to do with as they please?

The NHS may not be perfect but at least we have an NHS where according to 'clinical need' patients are seen assessed and treated. In many other countries patients are seen assessed given a shopping list and told to go away and buy everything right down to the needles and plasters and come back when you have bought it all, or as in America lets check how you are with insurance first. The ability to treat them is there but unless they can afford it they are not treated.

In all areas in work and life there is often room for improvement and with the NHS I feel it is in funding not being enough and reaching the right place as in patient care, however this is life and it isn't perfect.

For me if it was my family, sick and needing help and I had the resources and ability to go private and get the best for them as fast as possible then too darn right Id do it, in an instant, no questions asked about being fair or not selfish I know, but life and there would be a few out there who given the ability would do the same. :)

Yes they can do as they please and do, but it would not be in private practice if it was up to me.
thankfully we do not have the American system, we need to be vigilante regarding "private".
I totally agree with the statement of funding, and life is not perfect when wealth comes into the equation of treatment.
Your last paragraph, has the same answer as my last sentence.

I think, I/we should also agree to disagree on private health. :(

[Alice in Blunderland]

Sorry to drag this one up but I see even the NHS isnt immune from being looked at in times of hardship.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8234841.stm



I wonder how much the consultancy firm were paid for the advice which seems to have at this moment been rejected.

[tonkatojo]

Sorry to drag this one up but I see even the NHS isnt immune from being looked at in times of hardship.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8234841.stm



I wonder how much the consultancy firm were paid for the advice which seems to have at this moment been rejected.

What worries me more is the fact the conservatives look like winning the next general election, the dung will hit the fan and guess who it will hit most.

A clue : It will not be the rich/well off.

[rfr10]

Private healthcare is only creating greater inequalities. I don't think it is correct that people who are well off have a greater right to healthcare than those who can't afford it. The NHS train most of the staff who are working in private healthcare. Why should the NHS have to train these people when, in the end, they abandon the NHS. Ok, these people have to make a living but I have more respect for those in the NHS as they obviously care more about the health of people and not money.

[tonkatojo]

Private healthcare is only creating greater inequalities. I don't think it is correct that people who are well off have a greater right to healthcare than those who can't afford it. The NHS train most of the staff who are working in private healthcare. Why should the NHS have to train these people when, in the end, they abandon the NHS. Ok, these people have to make a living but I have more respect for those in the NHS as they obviously care more about the health of people and not money.

Well said rfr10, try explaining to Alice and doctor , I gave up.

[Alice in Blunderland]

The NHS train most of the staff who are working in private healthcare. Why should the NHS have to train these people when, in the end, they abandon the NHS.

And as they are training do they not provide a service for the NHS at the same time, some move on and some stay. Those that move on create a space for more people to work and train and thus the cycle continues. :)

[tonkatojo]

Private healthcare is only creating greater inequalities. I don't think it is correct that people who are well off have a greater right to healthcare than those who can't afford it. The NHS train most of the staff who are working in private healthcare. Why should the NHS have to train these people when, in the end, they abandon the NHS. Ok, these people have to make a living but I have more respect for those in the NHS as they obviously care more about the health of people and not money.

Also fr10 the private sector do not have teaching hospitals they depend on poaching from the NHS or from abroad.

[Phill]

Private healthcare is only creating greater inequalities. I don't think it is correct that people who are well off have a greater right to healthcare than those who can't afford it. The NHS train most of the staff who are working in private healthcare. Why should the NHS have to train these people when, in the end, they abandon the NHS. Ok, these people have to make a living but I have more respect for those in the NHS as they obviously care more about the health of people and not money.


Why does it create inequalities?
If the NHS is over stretched all that happens is it lightens the load for the NHS and 2 people get treated quicker.

As for the training and where people end up working this is just an issue in every industry. i.e. Construction Co': spends 3 years training people and putting them through college etc. during an apprenticeship and then they often leave once qualified.

Private health care has it place. The NHS is far from perfect but it's still the better that the alternative.

[tonkatojo]

Why does it create inequalities?
If the NHS is over stretched all that happens is it lightens the load for the NHS and 2 people get treated quicker.

As for the training and where people end up working this is just an issue in every industry. i.e. Construction Co': spends 3 years training people and putting them through college etc. during an apprenticeship and then they often leave once qualified.

Private health care has it place. The NHS is far from perfect but it's still the better that the alternative.

The inequality comes when some one can buy private quicker, up to 16 weeks waiting for an appointment for the rest.

I agree the NHS is not perfect, because private services is encroaching more and more, don't forget private patients get seen and treated in NHS hospitals.

I repeat all should be treated the same, money should not be a factor where health is concerned. Nor should snobbery by being "private" be allowed for the same reason.

[rfr10]

Why does it create inequalities?
If the NHS is over stretched all that happens is it lightens the load for the NHS and 2 people get treated quicker.

As for the training and where people end up working this is just an issue in every industry. i.e. Construction Co': spends 3 years training people and putting them through college etc. during an apprenticeship and then they often leave once qualified.

Private health care has it place. The NHS is far from perfect but it's still the better that the alternative.

It creates inequalities as those who live in poverty cannot afford to pay to receive better healthcare. It only creates a greater divide in society between the rich and the poor. Yes, obviously private healthcare has its advantages (as you stated about NHS waiting lists). It may help the NHS in some ways but it doesn't help the people who require health. I'd much rather see an attempt to strengthen the NHS and make it a better service than to have two types of healthcare. Good quality for those who can afford private healthcare and a weaker NHS because private healthcare is taking away all the staff that the NHS train. Besides, the private sector is only useful if you are healthy. Anyone who becomes severely ill aren't going to have that much luck in the private sector.

Can I also add that, although the NHS isn't perfect.. at least we have one. Think about the countries that don't.

[Phill]

It creates inequalities as those who live in poverty cannot afford to pay to receive better healthcare.

OK, you don't really get better healthcare in private, you get healthcare in a hotel and slightly better food.
If you in poverty and need healthcare, you get healthcare.
If your "rich" you can choose healthcare with Sky in your room.


I'd much rather see an attempt to strengthen the NHS and make it a better service than to have two types of healthcare. I absolutely agree. The ideal should be that you go to you doctor, get referred within days and treated within a few more days.
However the sheer economics of that just rules it out.


Besides, the private sector is only useful if you are healthy. Anyone who becomes severely ill aren't going to have that much luck in the private sector.Exactly, not easy to get your invoice paid from dead folk.

[tonkatojo]

OK, you don't really get better healthcare in private, you get healthcare in a hotel and slightly better food.
If you in poverty and need healthcare, you get healthcare.
If your "rich" you can choose healthcare with Sky in your room.

I absolutely agree. The ideal should be that you go to you doctor, get referred within days and treated within a few more days.
However the sheer economics of that just rules it out.

Exactly, not easy to get your invoice paid from dead folk.

So why the thumbs up for private from you. :confused

[Phill]

The inequality comes when some one can buy private quicker, up to 16 weeks waiting for an appointment for the rest.
Ban private treatment and everybody waits longer, crackin'.


I agree the NHS is not perfect, because private services is encroaching more and more, don't forget private patients get seen and treated in NHS hospitals.Not always, however I have to agree that if an NHS hospital has capacity it should be for NHS treatment.


I repeat all should be treated the same, money should not be a factor where health is concerned. Nor should snobbery by being "private" be allowed for the same reason.True, we all should be treated the same, but when the NHS wont treat you what do you do?

Snobbery is just for ijeets anyway, I wouldn't get hung up about that.

[Phill]

So why the thumbs up for private from you. :confused


I think it has it's place. It's not all its cracked up to be but it serves a purpose.

When the NHS refuse treatment at least there is another option.
And no, I'm not rich or snobbish. But when your loved ones need treatment sometimes you just gotta re-mortgage the house!:eek:

[tonkatojo]

I think it has it's place. It's not all its cracked up to be but it serves a purpose.

When the NHS refuse treatment at least there is another option.
And no, I'm not rich or snobbish. But when your loved ones need treatment sometimes you just gotta re-mortgage the house!:eek:

Can you tell me what surcumstances a loved one would not be treated by the NHS that would require someone to re-mortgage, unless you are talking about private services abroad.

[Phill]

Can you tell me what surcumstances a loved one would not be treated by the NHS that would require someone to re-mortgage, unless you are talking about private services abroad.


Small minded GP refused to refer as he believed other options were available, even though these had been tried and failed. He went on to add it would be an expensive operation (we all have budgets you see![disgust]) and he didn't believe it would work (or so he said).

[tonkatojo]

Small minded GP refused to refer as he believed other options were available, even though these had been tried and failed. He went on to add it would be an expensive operation (we all have budgets you see![disgust]) and he didn't believe it would work (or so he said).

Hmm, What did the health board say to all this, surely you approached them, if not through a solicitor. :(

[Alice in Blunderland]

I know of someone who has private health insurance.

He is self employed and has taken this policy out as a safeguard should he ever need it to ensure he gets back to work as quickly as possible so that he does not suffer financially. He's not rich just protecting himself.

[bluechesse]

I think Alice has summed it up nicely there. There are quite a lot of people out there who work on a self employed basis, or on a day rate as a contractor. These people do not get paid a bean if they don't go to work, and yes, I am one of them. Are you telling me that I should not be able to pay for private treatment to allow me to return to work as quickly as possible, but should simply wait around for the NHS to treat me for what ever ails me, and run the risk of loosing my house and having those who may depend on my wages go hungry?
Ok, I'll admit that this is an extreme example, but it's not that far beyond the realms of possibility.
The NHS can be a very good system. A relative of mine was recently treated for cancer on the NHS, and I cant imagine that quicker and more professional treatment could possible have been carried out by anyone. Obviousley this is a life threatening illness, and the NHS wasted no time at all.
BUT..... I know several people who have had illnesses and injuries which were not life threatening, but kept them off work for extended periods of time. OK if you get company benifits (sick pay etc) but if this happened to me I wouldn't receive a copper coin until I was fit to return to work. Obviousley due to the circumstances of my job, i'm slightly bias on this, but private health care in my opinion is a wonderful idea and can and does work perfectly alongside the NHS.
I can see absolutley no reason for it to be abolished and nothing I've read here has gone anyway to changing my mind.

[Alice in Blunderland]

I think Alice has summed it up nicely there. There are quite a lot of people out there who work on a self employed basis, or on a day rate as a contractor. These people do not get paid a bean if they don't go to work, and yes, I am one of them. Are you telling me that I should not be able to pay for private treatment to allow me to return to work as quickly as possible, but should simply wait around for the NHS to treat me for what ever ails me, and run the risk of loosing my house and having those who may depend on my wages go hungry?
Ok, I'll admit that this is an extreme example, but it's not that far beyond the realms of possibility.
The NHS can be a very good system. A relative of mine was recently treated for cancer on the NHS, and I cant imagine that quicker and more professional treatment could possible have been carried out by anyone. Obviousley this is a life threatening illness, and the NHS wasted no time at all.
BUT..... I know several people who have had illnesses and injuries which were not life threatening, but kept them off work for extended periods of time. OK if you get company benifits (sick pay etc) but if this happened to me I wouldn't receive a copper coin until I was fit to return to work. Obviousley due to the circumstances of my job, i'm slightly bias on this, but private health care in my opinion is a wonderful idea and can and does work perfectly alongside the NHS.
I can see absolutley no reason for it to be abolished and nothing I've read here has gone anyway to changing my mind.


Exactly what I also feel. :D

You are treated rapidly through the NHS if life threatening however I also feel that it can work well alongside private. As for the staff they should not be tied for working in the NHS and the NHS alone that is just asking for trouble.

I would rather be treated by someone who wants to be doing the job not someone who has been forced to do the job because they are tied in by a binding contract.

There are many reasons people turn to the Private companies for treatment and as stated they are not all because they are rich and want to queue jump some need it as a safety net should unforeseen circumstances occur. :)

[Phill]

Hmm, What did the health board say to all this, surely you approached them, if not through a solicitor. :(


All avenues were thoroughly investigated, and a lot of counsel was taken.
Besides, the wee housey wasn't big enough to fund a remortgage to line the pockets of the medics and the clerics :eek:

[rfr10]

The NHS would probably be a much better service and more efficient if the private service didn't exist. Where have all our dentists gone? Private - that's where! I can't afford to be paying a monthly fee just to get my teeth checked, even when I don't need any treatment. We can't keep complaining about the NHS when the reason there are probably long waiting lists is because most staff have gone private. Is it a cause or effect?

[Alice in Blunderland]

The NHS would probably be a much better service and more efficient if the private service didn't exist. Where have all our dentists gone? Private - that's where! I can't afford to be paying a monthly fee just to get my teeth checked, even when I don't need any treatment. We can't keep complaining about the NHS when the reason there are probably long waiting lists is because most staff have gone private. Is it a cause or effect?

Wrong the NHS dentists disappeared because the government screwed them over when they gave out the new contracts years ago. The dentists then refused to take on any more NHS patients.

Another thing if and I say if all our doctors, nurses, whatever are leaving the NHS in such large numbers why isnt there mush more private hospitals and clinics around since they have all these staff on their payrole. I believe there are over one and a half million employed by the NHS how many of which are directly hands on I dont know but surely the private sector havent poached that many.

The private sector isnt the biggest threat to the NHS. Its funding. Crackpot ideas from governments with not enough cash going to the right part of the NHS is the biggest hurdle not the private sector IMHO :):)

[bluechesse]

Absolutley correct. As far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong) many dentists do treat NHS patients as well as private patients. And it's wrong to say that all the medical professionals have left the NHS to work in private hospitals etc, as private health care works the same way as anything else, supply and demand. In order for all the doctors to go to private hospitals, all the patients would have to go first!
And, try asking any recently qualified nurses how difficult it is to get a job in Caithness general right now. I know of quite a few who are looking for one! Either there are more than enough nurses to staff the hospital, or the government will not pay for the extra ones required (unfortunately I suspect the latter, but thats just me guessing). Either way, if you do not feel you are getting the treatment you require, or you are not getting it quickly enough, I dont think it's up to anyone else to say you should not be able to use the money you have earned to expediate your recovery!

[Phill]

The NHS would probably be a much better service and more efficient if the private service didn't exist.

Not buying that one, think about accident claims for one example. How much time can the NHS afford for medics to write up reports for these people without affecting efficiency?



We can't keep complaining about the NHS when the reason there are probably long waiting lists is because most staff have gone private. Is it a cause or effect?The NHS budget is around £100billion PA two thirds is spent on staff salaries, that's an awful lot of non private staff!

The simple reason for waiting lists is lack of funding. Throw into that a certain amount of inefficiency of any large civil organisation. Then add successive re-inventions of the wheel by various govt's (truly bipartisan) and Whitehall think tanks.

As I've have said, and in effect others including yourself, is in the ideal world we should go and see our NHS GP 10 minutes after phoning for an appointment and be cured the next day.
Sadly in this world it's highly unlikely to happen, unless your happy to pay 60% income tax, 40% VAT and £5 per litre fuel duty.

Me thinks the MP's & MSP's should be on minimum wage and essential expenses (paid at NHS rates!) only and that deficit piled into the NHS.

[crayola]

The NHS would probably be a much better service and more efficient if the private service didn't exist.Yes, everyone knows that a sprawling monolithic state-controlled monster with no alternatives and no incentive to improve always provides the best and most efficient service. :lol:

[Alice in Blunderland]

Yes, everyone knows that a sprawling monolithic state-controlled monster with no alternatives and no incentive to improve always provides the best and most efficient service. :lol:

Amen to that one ! :Razz

Furthermore should they not toe the state controlled monsters line they should be stripped of all qualifications and refused to be allowed to work anywhere at all in the world.

;)

[Alice in Blunderland]

Another thought on this statement about the NHS training the staff so they should stay within the NHS.

What about the doctors and nurses who are not trained by the NHS but are currently employed by the NHS to fill the staff shortages.These shortages are not caused by private health poaching them there just aren't enough around. :confused

[Whitewater]

We have a great system in the UK. This was dabated on another poll a short time ago but I don't know if there was a vote. I voted for both NHS & private, it works for me. My dentist is private, everything else NHS. I have never had a problem with either, gurn sometimes about the NHS but when you need emergency treatment you get it, and of the highest quality. Where would we be if we were like America? you don't get looked at if you cannot pay or are not insured, even with their medical insurance I know people who are still working in their 70s to pay for operations.
I would like the dental services to all be NHS as well, but there are some around, my two grandsons get NHS dentistry without a problem, both have too many teeth, but treatment has been on going for several years and they get called upon for planned extractions and braces.