lockerbie bomber freed

[Tom Cornwall]

so, they took the easy option and set the bomber free...kenny mackaskill said that he had only 3 months to live...are they going to be able to check when/that this actually happens...if he makes a miraculous recovery, is the Scottish justice minister going to stand up and apologise, or will he blame the doctors...I hope that when he lives longer than 3 months, kenny mackaskill gets the sack...that would be justice

[buddyrich]

Yeah, i dunno if this is a good idea. I think you'd struggle to find someone who would agree that being compassionate to the man is what macaskill should be doing. If he's going to die really very soon then i suppose it's neither here nor there.

The real villian of the whole spectacle is tony blair. Regardless of the compensation money paid, why on earth re-establish diplomacy with libya in '04 when clearly it was a libyan government operation to blow up the plane. Invade iraq, yet make friends with libya? It's staggering that people dont seem that bothered. Megrahi might well have been involved but he's ultimately just the fall guy. Like Lee Harvey Oswald, he couldnt have been acting alone.

[scorrie]

so, they took the easy option and set the bomber free...kenny mackaskill said that he had only 3 months to live...are they going to be able to check when/that this actually happens...if he makes a miraculous recovery, is the Scottish justice minister going to stand up and apologise, or will he blame the doctors...I hope that when he lives longer than 3 months, kenny mackaskill gets the sack...that would be justice

This post is ridiculous Tom. Are you going to put the man on a timer and have a good moan about it if he doesn't die in exactly three months?

How much do you know about the man's state of health?

Making a prognosis for the survival time of cancer sufferers is not an exact science and patients sometimes live beyond the forecast time scale.

As I predicted, when I heard that Megrahi had dropped his appeal, he is now free. The whole episode stinks of him carrying the can for higher authorities. In all probability families will never know the truth about who is truly responsible because of Political wangling.

[changilass]

If he is guilty he should have been left to rot and if he is innocent then they should have an appeal with new evidence and let him free.

This is stupidity at its best.

I know they say the law is an ass but did they really need to prove it.

[cuthill]

Did he show any compassion to the people on the flight or there families who had to cope afterwards LET HIM ROT.

[coppertop 1958]

all has to do with uk getting more oil

[NickInTheNorth]

Yeah, i dunno if this is a good idea. I think you'd struggle to find someone who would agree that being compassionate to the man is what macaskill should be doing. If he's going to die really very soon then i suppose it's neither here nor there.

The real villian of the whole spectacle is tony blair. Regardless of the compensation money paid, why on earth re-establish diplomacy with libya in '04 when clearly it was a libyan government operation to blow up the plane. Invade iraq, yet make friends with libya? It's staggering that people dont seem that bothered. Megrahi might well have been involved but he's ultimately just the fall guy. Like Lee Harvey Oswald, he couldnt have been acting alone.

I don't really have any issue with him being released on compassionate grounds, 3 months to live - do you really think he'll be carrying out any more bombings in that time?

As to the contrast between the treatment of Libya and Iraq, ironically the governments motive for both re-establising diplomatic relations with one and invading the other is one and the same.

Oil!

[coppertop 1958]

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb309/copperetop/Lockerbie_disaster_memorial.jpg

[Tom Cornwall]

I don't really have any issue with him being released on compassionate grounds, 3 months to live - do you really think he'll be carrying out any more bombings in that time?
!

some one Twittered that he'd now have 3 months to organise a suicide bombing

[scorrie]

some one Twittered that he'd now have 3 months to organise a suicide bombing

I suspect they were talking out of their "Twitter" ;)

[scorrie]

Did he show any compassion to the people on the flight or there families who had to cope afterwards LET HIM ROT.

This extract is from The Guardian website:-

"You give no details of the weakness of the decision against Abdelbaset al-Megrahi over the Lockerbie outrage (Transatlantic split over plans to free Libyan jailed for Lockerbie bombing, 14 August). The US and Britain violated international law by ignoring the Montreal Convention of 1971, the principal legal instrument in the case, which stipulated that the two suspects be tried in Libya.

That the subsequent, illegal court proceedings did not establish Megrahi's guilt beyond reasonable doubt is well shown by Lord Sutherland's own judicial summation: "On the matter of identification [by key witness Tony Gauci] … there are undoubtedly problems … In relation to certain aspects of the case, there are a number of uncertainties and qualifications … In selecting parts of the evidence which seem to fit together and ignoring parts which might not fit, it is possible to read into a mass of conflicting evidence a pattern or conclusion which is not really justified."

Before the trial, Tony Gauci was feted by the police, taken to Aviemore, taken fishing for salmon, and put up at the Hilton hotel in Glasgow – none of which was revealed to the judges in the Zeist court. Professor Robert Black of Edinburgh University said he knew of no other Scottish murder trial witness being taken on fishing trips by police. Nor were the judges told that on the day of the bombing there had been an unexplained break-in in the Heathrow baggage area. The court verdict was a shameful political verdict under US pressure."

[bigskelf]

As I mentioned earlier, it seemed his appeal could have been more embarrassing than letting him go on compassionate grounds. So now we'll never know. If anybody can be bothered checking the evidence, it strikes me that strongest a jury would have gone for would have been "not proven".
It's funny how everybody seems to have forgotten the 290 passengers and crew killed when the USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 five months earlier. Without getting into the technicalities of that incident it does look like a extremely good motive for a revenge attack[disgust]

[wickscorrie]

i wish when a prison sentence was handed out, the time given should be the term served, and no appeal on medical grounds, if the person is convicted then their crime and subsequent sentence removes the need for compassion, if they wanted compassion they should have though about that at the time they committed the crime.
but this should apply for all crimes a year is a year not 3 months for good behaviour, they weren't good in the first place
but then i also wish it was a life for a life

this case smacks of too much string pulling.

shame the scottish minister gave in

[Messi10]

http://www.lockerbietruth.com/

[cuddlepop]

This has been done for reasons way beyond compassionate grounds.

Who would you rather upset Libya or America?,that was the real question.

It would appear that Oil reserves are more important than justice,thats the real tradegy about this case.:~(

[Gene Hunt]

This extract is from The Guardian website:-

"You give no details of the weakness of the decision against Abdelbaset al-Megrahi over the Lockerbie outrage (Transatlantic split over plans to free Libyan jailed for Lockerbie bombing, 14 August). The US and Britain violated international law by ignoring the Montreal Convention of 1971, the principal legal instrument in the case, which stipulated that the two suspects be tried in Libya.

That the subsequent, illegal court proceedings did not establish Megrahi's guilt beyond reasonable doubt is well shown by Lord Sutherland's own judicial summation: "On the matter of identification [by key witness Tony Gauci] … there are undoubtedly problems … In relation to certain aspects of the case, there are a number of uncertainties and qualifications … In selecting parts of the evidence which seem to fit together and ignoring parts which might not fit, it is possible to read into a mass of conflicting evidence a pattern or conclusion which is not really justified."

Before the trial, Tony Gauci was feted by the police, taken to Aviemore, taken fishing for salmon, and put up at the Hilton hotel in Glasgow – none of which was revealed to the judges in the Zeist court. Professor Robert Black of Edinburgh University said he knew of no other Scottish murder trial witness being taken on fishing trips by police. Nor were the judges told that on the day of the bombing there had been an unexplained break-in in the Heathrow baggage area. The court verdict was a shameful political verdict under US pressure."

If the Guardian wrote that the Pope was Jewish would you believe that as well ??

That paper is a left leaning establishment that used to be known as the Granuiad in recognition of its inability to even SPELL its stories properly.

[Messi10]

Could the CIA have planted the timer fragment that pointed to Libya?
The discovery of a fragment of circuit board from a timer made by a Swiss company with links to Libya was critical to the prosecution. But accounts of how, where and by whom it was found varied. The original fragment was found several miles from the wreckage, and some weeks after the disaster.

It was not until very much later that the CIA claimed to have identified it and matched it with a circuit board manufactured by Mebo of Zurich, a company run by Edwin Bollier, who had supplied timers to the Libyan Government. Some experts have argued that the find was just a bit too convenient to the US investigators, since, by targeting the Libyans, they could avoid falling out with Iran and Syria, important allies at the time of the Gulf War. So could the CIA have planted the evidence? “I don’t know,” says Lord Fraser. “No one ever came to me and said, ‘Now we can go for the Libyans’, it was never as straightforward as that. The CIA was extremely subtle. For me the significant evidence came when the Scottish police made the connection with Malta.” Pressed for his own view, he cites a Scottish murder case, that of Patrick Meehan, in which, it was alleged, the prosecution case had been “improved” by the planting of evidence. Was there a similarity? “I don’t know,” he said again, “but if there was one witness I was not happy about, it was Mr Bollier, who was deeply unreliable.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5367536.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5367536.ece)

[Messi10]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/ju...ics.lockerbie1 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/ju...ics.lockerbie1)


Another of the scientists who gave evidence in the trial, Dr Thomas Hayes, was involved in the case of the Maguire Seven, imprisoned in 1976 for handling explosives shortly after the Guildford bombings. They also won their appeal after major flaws in forensic science.


You do know that there a guy in Jail in Germany who's group planted bomb in Frankfurt killing US Squaddies and who were found to have identical bomb and explosives to those on the Pan Am flight has admitted it was his group that did it ?

Or that one of the forensic experts who evidence also gave evidence in the Maguire 7 trial (subsequently found to be complete nonsense) ?

Or that the guy who 'identified' Megrahi only did so after a dozen contradictory statements and after $1.5M were transferred into his account ?

[PantsMAN]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/ju...ics.lockerbie1 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/ju...ics.lockerbie1)
Another of the scientists
SNIP
into his account ?

We know your post is important but please, try not to shout. :confused

[Gene Hunt]

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4024/tinfoilhatw.jpg

[PantsMAN]

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4024/tinfoilhatw.jpg
the link doesn't appear to work and returns this
http://10.134.108.4:15871/cgi-bin/blockpage.cgi?ws-session=3892315771

:~(

[scorrie]

If the Guardian wrote that the Pope was Jewish would you believe that as well ??

That paper is a left leaning establishment that used to be known as the Granuiad in recognition of its inability to even SPELL its stories properly.

Pretty poor debating Gene. You can rip the piss out of any newspapers you want to but the fact remains that the man's conviction is highly suspect. My head doesn't button up the back and I expected that you would have worked that out by now.

Where do you get your AUTHENTIC news from then? If we can't believe what we read, hear or see we are all really only operating with our heads up our arse.

Please form suitable anagram of "The Times" for comic effect here:-




I'll give the first half to help:-

"Meet _ _ _ _" ;)

ps The section I quoted from The Guardian was written by Geoff Simons - Author of Libya and the West

[Gene Hunt]

Pretty poor debating Gene. You can rip the piss out of any newspapers you want to but the fact remains that the man's conviction is highly suspect. My head doesn't button up the back and I expected that you would have worked that out by now.

Where do you get your AUTHENTIC news from then? If we can't believe what we read, hear or see we are all really only operating with our heads up our arse.

Please form suitable anagram of "The Times" for comic effect here:-




I'll give the first half to help:-

"Meet _ _ _ _" ;)

ps The section I quoted from The Guardian was written by Geoff Simons - Author of Libya and the West


Well thats me convinced. Geoff Simons wrote a book called Libya and the West. Wow.

Journalists would fornicate with a snake if someone would only hold it straight for them. They are, in the vast majority, the scum of the earth. I saw enough of them write a completly different version of events to what actually happened six feet in front of their face to suit what their editor wanted. So forgive me if I believe that they dont give a fig about anything or anyone .. as long as they get their scoop. I dont really read any of the UK papers. I tend to get my News from Reuters.

The fact is that only one person knows if he did it or not, and thats him. Suddenly though all these people who were never involved on the case are suddenly experts and all because they read someone elses view. Those are the people with their head up their arse as you so put it.

I dont do anagrams. But seeing as you are so keen on them I will solve yours for you. The missing four letters is what you need to take your head for.

[neilsermk1]

Cant help but notice the deafening silence from Downing Street.

[bigskelf]

Gene seems to feel that any intelligent questioning of his gut reaction can only from woolly minded liberals or conspiracy nutters. Strange since I usually find myself debunking most conspiracy theories. But sadly he seems unwilling or unable to actually bother to check up on details or uncomfortable facts that don't agree with his world view. He seems to enjoy deliberately provoking the people he doesn't like (those who don't agree with him) then his first defense is "I'm only having a joke" before getting down to his real agenda.
Don't bother attacking me Gene I've seen bullies like you in forums all too often. After seeing the level of your intellectual capabilitiesI realised there was little point in even trying to debate with you and so put your name in my ignore list.
The point is Gene likes to vent his spleen, if you agree with him, fine. If you don't, don't let him wind you up.
Just add him to your ignore list and move on.

[upsydaisy]

he,s now gone home a hero, whats stopping him plotting more distruction and killing i agree with previous orger that a sentence should be fully served no matter what.

[scorrie]

Well thats me convinced. Geoff Simons wrote a book called Libya and the West. Wow.

Journalists would fornicate with a snake if someone would only hold it straight for them. They are, in the vast majority, the scum of the earth. I saw enough of them write a completly different version of events to what actually happened six feet in front of their face to suit what their editor wanted. So forgive me if I believe that they dont give a fig about anything or anyone .. as long as they get their scoop. I dont really read any of the UK papers. I tend to get my News from Reuters.

The fact is that only one person knows if he did it or not, and thats him. Suddenly though all these people who were never involved on the case are suddenly experts and all because they read someone elses view. Those are the people with their head up their arse as you so put it.

I dont do anagrams. But seeing as you are so keen on them I will solve yours for you. The missing four letters is what you need to take your head for.

Pathetic response. You are spouting a load of nonsense and have nothing to say apart from criticising everyone but yourself. I had thought you might have possessed some understanding and intelligence but you are clearly a loud mouthed bully boy trying to catch the attention of those who think that forums should be vigorous arenas where insults replace any reasoned thought.

You are, in fact, utterly incorrect in stating that Megrahi is the only person who knows whether he did it or not. If he DIDN'T do it, someone else must have and by that very simple logic, they ALSO know that Megrahi didn't do it. Seemples!!

I haven't read Libya and The West, so I cannot comment on the quality of the book. I would be willing to bet, though, that the author knows a lot more about the topic than you do, although that, admittedly, would not take a lot of doing.

I saw your spat with Percy T and where that went on both sides. I am therefore not going to be further involved in any discourse with you on any topic. You are not worth bothering with, just an annoying noise for ignoring as it rattles around like a pea in a whistle.

[Penelope Pitstop]

he,s now gone home a hero, whats stopping him plotting more distruction and killing i agree with previous orger that a sentence should be fully served no matter what.

Upsydaisy, I too wonder what response he will receive on his return home. There appears to be much, much more to this case than meets the eye. I do feel very sorry for the families of the victims.

[purplelady]

Did he show any compassion to the people on the flight or there families who had to cope afterwards LET HIM ROT.here here could not have put it better myself x

[hunter]

If you look back recent history, you'll find that a warming occurred in relations between US/UK and Libya after Libya abandoned its nuclear programme. The prisoner transfer agreement fell into place after that.

How anyone can call this an "easy" decision is beyond me. You elect politicians to make difficult decisions like this.

I doubt if we will ever get to the bottom of all that went on before and after the bomb. There are so many conspiracy thoeries.

I read one the other day. Earlier in 1988, the US Navy shot down an Iranian airbus full of passengers over the Gulf. There was no apology from the US, but a tacit agreement subsequently fostered by intermediaries that Iran would be allowed to destroy one US aircraft to even things up. The Iranians used their allies in the Syrian terrorist network to exact revenge.

According to the theory, this explains why certain individuals valued by the US Government were advised to steer clear of certain flights over several days in the run-up to Xmas 88. Other individuals whom the US government felt no warmth towards did not receive such advice.

No idea if any of that is true, but it makes for a good story.

On balance, I'm minded to accept the compassion argument. To be honest, if it upsets the americans, i couldn't care less. They have a very right-wing attitude towards convicts.

[oldmarine]

If you had any kin tied in with that flight I'm certain you would have negative feelings of him going free.

[Tubthumper]

I wonder how far we (Scotland) would get if we tried to interfere in US legal decisions? And precisely how much support did the US government ever give the UK over known IRA terrorists/ murderers living the dream in the USA? Never mind the conspiracy theories, the USS Vincennes/ Iran Air incident is a grand example of arrogant people in glass houses forgetting that throwing stones is a bad idea.
Mind your own business say I.
And good for you Kenny Macaskill.

[golach]

I wonder how far we (Scotland) would get if we tried to interfere in US legal decisions? And precisely how much support did the US government ever give the UK over known IRA terrorists/ murderers living the dream in the USA? Never mind the conspiracy theories, the USS Vincennes/ Iran Air incident is a grand example of arrogant people in glass houses forgetting that throwing stones is a bad idea.
Mind your own business say I.
And good for you Kenny Macaskill.

Tubs, I am in full agreement, people in glass houses should not throw stones!!!

[buddyrich]

Macaskill just got put through the mangle by paxman.

If nothing else the controversy over the ruling will hopefully show people how totally unqualified the snp government is in handling major decisions. Whether the release is right or wrong, they've made a total hash of it.

Interesting how quiet our wine-guzzling swine of a first minister is over this. He doesnt usually miss the chance to appear on tv. Unless it's over a hugely unpopular decision which he'll no doubt be at pains to distance himself from.

[tonkatojo]

Cant help but notice the deafening silence from Downing Street.

I think they all went to sleep the length of time it took Kenny Macaskill to get to the punchline that being "released on compassionate grounds", man did he know he had an audience.

[Tubthumper]

Whether the release is right or wrong, they've made a total hash of it.

Explain????

[tonkatojo]

Macaskill just got put through the mangle by paxman.

If nothing else the controversy over the ruling will hopefully show people how totally unqualified the snp government is in handling major decisions. Whether the release is right or wrong, they've made a total hash of it.

Interesting how quiet our wine-guzzling swine of a first minister is over this. He doesnt usually miss the chance to appear on tv. Unless it's over a hugely unpopular decision which he'll no doubt be at pains to distance himself from.

He will be roamin in the gloamin with the munchkin. ;)

[buddyrich]

I think they all went to sleep the length of time it took Kenny Macaskill to get to the punchline that being "released on compassionate grounds", man did he know he had an audience.

Ha! Aye he sure did. Maybe he anticipates the end of his political career and thought he'd bask in the attention for as long as he could.

[crayola]

so, they took the easy option and set the bomber free.Au contraire, Kenny MacAskill took a brave decision because he will now have the relations of the victims and the Obama/Clinton administration breathing down his neck and calling for his blood.

The easy option would have been to dismiss the calls to set the bomber free by citing both the severity of the crime and his wish to conclude the second appeal so that justice would be seen to be done.

Kenny MacAskill may be many things but he is his own man and I respect him for that, even though on balance I'm not sure I would have made the same decision.

[Tubthumper]

Maybe it's our ability to be compassionate that sets us apart from the common bomber. The US is undoubtably up in arms, but I wonder what the rest of the world is thinking of Scotland... they're not US lapdogs perhaps?
We're supplying plenty of support and material for US adventures in the wider world, specifically the 'war on terror'. If the US is genuinely pyssed off with us, perhaps they should seek to remove our troops from their order of battle in Afghanistan?

[buddyrich]

Explain????


Days upon days of meaningless conjecture, Libya releasing the news during his rambling speech, launching political attacks on Westminster during said speech, offering no real reason for the release etc etc.

They had no control over the release of information and stupidly managed to present the release as just one of kenny macaskill's crazy schemes.

He finally managed to say on newsnight that he was administering the compassion megrahi didnt show etc etc. If that had been their message earlier in the process then it might have eased the furore.

[crayola]

Macaskill just got put through the mangle by paxman.Drat, I switched off the tv when I came on here. :(


Interesting how quiet our wine-guzzling swine of a first minister is over this. He doesnt usually miss the chance to appear on tv. Unless it's over a hugely unpopular decision which he'll no doubt be at pains to distance himself from.Indeed. Kenny MacA is his own man and it won't be difficult for Alex S to persuade us of that if it all goes belly up. As has already been noted, Gordy B and the Downing St foot-in-mouth machine have also been extraordinarily silent.

[tonkatojo]

Au contraire, Kenny MacAskill took a brave decision because he will now have the relations of the victims and the Obama/Clinton administration breathing down his neck and calling for his blood.

The easy option would have been to dismiss the calls to set the bomber free by citing both the severity of the crime and his wish to conclude the second appeal so that justice would be seen to be done.

Kenny MacAskill may be many things but he is his own man and I respect him for that, even though on balance I'm not sure I would have made the same decision.

I think he went to great pains building up to saying the UK government made the decision to have an agreement (prisoner exchange) and "we" the Scottish government are not going to comply and this is how it will be done.

[buddyrich]

I wonder if the US would take Scotlands view into account if things were reversed and it was a plane load of scots killed over america.

It doesnt really apply i suppose because america wouldnt release the culprit even if he only had a day left to live.

[Moira]

<snip>

Kenny MacAskill may be many things but he is his own man and I respect him for that, even though on balance I'm not sure I would have made the same decision.

Good point. I'm glad this decision was not mine to make.

[buddyrich]

I mentioned before, i think any dialogue with Libya is outrageous, let alone prisoner transfer agreements. That government sponsors terrorism, such as the lockerbie bombimb.

his is all fall out from blair going over there five years ago, so fair enough, macaskill didnt ask for this.

But then again he fairly grasped with both hands the chance to have his dance on the world stage.

[Boozeburglar]

He is not free, check our Justice Minister's speech.

His release demonstrates all the noble and best of our system.

Clemency, mercy, call it what you will.

He may be feted as a hero, but the real effect will be rebuking the propaganda of the extremists. We are demonstrating our ability to rise above revenge.

Well done Scotland. I am very proud to be part of this Scotland making a very Scottish decision.

We are, after all, the home of the modern enlightenment.

[Tubthumper]

But then again he fairly grasped with both hands the chance to have his dance on the world stage.
I thought he did a pretty good job under crappy circumstances. Perhaps the SNP is becoming more than just a one-man band???

[crayola]

I wonder if the US would take Scotlands view into account if things were reversed and it was a plane load of scots killed over america.

It doesnt really apply i suppose because america wouldnt release the culprit even if he only had a day left to live.No, they would have executed him before he had a chance to die of cancer!

[Tubthumper]

It doesnt really apply i suppose because america wouldnt release the culprit even if he only had a day left to live.
Never mind the 'culprit', any associated suspects would get trussed and bagged, waterboarded and dragged to a neutral country and held incommunicado for years without recourse to due process of law. Or be electrocuted or poisoned.

[Boozeburglar]

Yeah! We really need to look to the butchers in the USA to set our moral compass! Sheesh!

Human Rights in the USA is a lost idea.

[Tubthumper]

Yeah! We really need to look to the butchers in the USA to set our moral compass! Sheesh!
Human Rights in the USA is a lost idea.
I think that's a bit rash. I know some great US citizens. I just think the country can get a bitty self-obsessed at times.

[Moira]

I wonder if the US would take Scotlands view into account if things were reversed and it was a plane load of scots killed over america.

It doesnt really apply i suppose because america wouldnt release the culprit even if he only had a day left to live.

I take your point but it's not Scotland's opinion that is in the spotlight here, is it?

[Tubthumper]

I take your point but it's not Scotland's opinion that is in the spotlight here, is it?
Rightly or wrongly, this issue is going to ask us all to have a good look at what it actually means to be 'Scottish'. Do we actually want to be a wee country that can stand up for what it believes in? Will we stand behind our elected politicians when they grasp the thistle? Or will we just be endlessly subservient to UK government, and dance to America's tune?
Many US citizens say 'My country, right or wrong.' Dare we start to think the same??

[mama2]

I will reserve my sympathy for the real victims in this and that is the people who have lost loved ones due to this act of terrorism. I'm sure there are many, if not all of them, who feel angered, hurt and betrayed by this decision. Because of this man and the monsters who helped him carry out the bombings, Lockerbie, like Dunblane will forever be remembered for the wrong reasons.
Compasionate grounds - that is a laugh. He didn't show much compasion for the victims did he?

[golach]

Many conveniently forget that Libya , paid compensation to the US familys of the bombing of 1.5 billion dollars

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7703110.stm

[mama2]

Does paying $1.5 billion make it all right? Compensation doesn't replace your loved ones.

[Dr Evil]

I am still out on this topic, i am still debating with myself to the pros and cons of him being freed! I find that I am really into conspiracy theories and due to work realted courses I actually spent a lot of time studying the did he didnt he side of things for a presenation on Megrahi for work. The time i spent looking at the in really did through me off!!!

This led me to three conclusions on his release (and i still havent decided which one i am behind)

1: He is going to die anyway so better out of prison because when he is in the prison he was costing the tax payer,

but

2: he did kill all the people who never got to go home to their family for the final moments no matter months. . . .. . . . . . . . . .

or

3: Scapegoat

However (here is the conspiracy side) who else was involved, what about the Helsinki warning??? what about the 5 US intel officers that mysteriously turned into four, what about the Libyan intel officer caught earlier with the exact same materials to make the same bomb as was used in the attack these are only a few I can name which I researched along with some others!!!!!

One post I really agree with 100% on this thread was by scorrie

Quote: This post is ridiculous Tom. Are you going to put the man on a timer and have a good moan about it if he doesn't die in exactly three months?

How much do you know about the man's state of health?

Making a prognosis for the survival time of cancer sufferers is not an exact science and patients sometimes live beyond the forecast time scale.

As I predicted, when I heard that Megrahi had dropped his appeal, he is now free. The whole episode stinks of him carrying the can for higher authorities. In all probability families will never know the truth about who is truly responsible because of Political wangling.

[Bazeye]

Pensioners freezing to death.....heat or eat........ex squaddies living on the streets.....scumbags getting for free what I have to work and pay for.... I absolutely hate the way the government tells me what I can and cant do....... better go and empty the wheelie bin now before I get fined......Ill give it between 5 and 10 years before everybody finally realisestheyve been taken for a ride........Big Style....

[Bazeye]

Rightly or wrongly, this issue is going to ask us all to have a good look at what it actually means to be 'Scottish'. Do we actually want to be a wee country that can stand up for what it believes in? Will we stand behind our elected politicians when they grasp the thistle? Or will we just be endlessly subservient to UK government, and dance to America's tune?
Many US citizens say 'My country, right or wrong.' Dare we start to think the same?? We might have been dancing to americas tune for ye ars......substitute that nowadays for the unelected EEU..

[Bazeye]

Rightly or wrongly, this issue is going to ask us all to have a good look at what it actually means to be 'Scottish'. Do we actually want to be a wee country that can stand up for what it believes in? Will we stand behind our elected politicians when they grasp the thistle? Or will we just be endlessly subservient to UK government, and dance to America's tune?
Many US citizens say 'My country, right or wrong.' Dare we start to think the same?? We are not subserviant to the UK or the USA. Weve sold our soul to the EEC

[Bazeye]

How anyone can call this an "easy" decision is beyond me. You elect politicians to make difficult decisions like this.. See where youre coming from but Idont remember electing anybody in the EEC to tell me whats in my best interests. Or any body else come to think of it.

[Aaldtimer]

If you had any kin tied in with that flight I'm certain you would have negative feelings of him going free.

Have you listened to Jim Swire's views on this? He lost his daughter in the tragedy and is quite vehement in his opinion of Mr. Megrahi's non- involvement, and that two wrongs don't make a right!
I think I'm right in saying that he attended every day of the trial in the Netherlands, and listened to all the evidence. :confused

[Aaldtimer]

He is not free, check our Justice Minister's speech.

His release demonstrates all the noble and best of our system.

Clemency, mercy, call it what you will.

He may be feted as a hero, but the real effect will be rebuking the propaganda of the extremists. We are demonstrating our ability to rise above revenge.

Well done Scotland. I am very proud to be part of this Scotland making a very Scottish decision.

We are, after all, the home of the modern enlightenment.

Well said Bb!

[The Pepsi Challenge]

So, in typical redneck fashion, the Yanks have set up a boycottscotland website in reaction to this, eh? Funny. Given the fact that Google stopped giving out gmail addresses about two years ago and changed it to googlemail.com addresses, it means, either, the boycottscotland gmail address has been on hold for some time, or, it's a fake. The domain, incidentally, was registered yesterday in Canada, of all places.

Anyway, if Megrahi were to have had his appeal heard there would be some damning evidence of a cover-up, I suspect; so, our government(s?) had to put the fly or die deal to him in order to save their own political backsides. Megrahi knew they'd never let his appeal get as far as presenting any new evidence - lawyers (as we all know fully well) would have procrastinated that one easily for three-to-six months.

One of the conditions of eligibility for compassionate release is that there must be no pending legal proceedings against the individual. Convenient, yes? Megrahi must therefore abandon his appeal if he wants to go home alive.

If, after he gets home, he now starts pointing the finger and naming names etc., Washington/London can dismiss it by saying he accepted the deal and therefore urge the world to pay no heed to the rantings of a "convicted terrorist" who "declined" the opportunity to appeal against his conviction and clear his name.

He can't hurt them as a "guilty" man, whereas his evidence at appeal could have been a real economic, political and diplomatic catastrophe for them collectively. Coming closely on the back of the WMD fiasco would not have helped our government(s) who are already facing an understandably skeptical electorate.

A win-win for all the governments I'd say. Gadaffi, the peacemaker, gets the adulation of his citizens for having secured Megrahi's release, the UK/Scottish governments are seen to be "compassionate" and Washington secures Libyan oil supplies whilst it pretends it is miffed: so as not to offend its own citizens. Gadaffi will no doubt maintain a diplomatic silence even if Megrahi rants for the remainder of his life, because, he, Gadaffi, will now secure lucrative trade deals on Libya's behalf, too. Diplomatic/economic ties between Libya and the West will continue to thaw, the fat cats will get fatter and the oil will once again flow into an imported-oil-dependent US. The only people who don't get any justice are 270 American families, one Libyan family and the general public.

I mean, suppose Megrahi has already passed some really damning evidence out to supporters? If he'd died in jail, and such evidence subsequently came to light, then world opinion might think "no wonder they kept him silenced in jail", whereas under this arrangement, his "guilt" (i.e. his lack of credibility) is now upheld for all to see and his criticisms can more easily be deflected and dismissed: "Scotland has released a terrorist".

All for oil - is that so hard to believe given recent history? The lives of a mere 270 people is nothing to these governments in the grand scale of things: how many Iraqis have died, and are still dying? Are they still dying today because of WMD? Or, because of oil, or because of "Al Qaeda"? Why must every leader of an unfriendly oil-producing country be portrayed as a madman? Think of who has been branded like that - Gadaffi, successive Syrian and Iranian leaders and Saddam. Syria doesn't have as much as the rest of them but we still think they're anti-West, even though our petroleum companies are doing rather well out there, too.

Funny though, how Africa is full of warring factions, Islamic extremists and despotic governments, but there's not the same rush to "liberate" them. Nigeria has oil but look at the corruption that goes on. Meanwhile, BP just keeps pumping the stuff out of there whilst it covers up the atrocities. Iran is next - stick your mortgage on that one, only we'll let the Israeli branch of "Al Qaeda" do the dirty work this time.

[Bruce_H]

So my two cents as one of the yanks who loiter here.

I think the fact that Scotland let this dirtbag go makes no sense. He has no mercy in his soul, and deserves to rot forever in prison. The way that he was celebrated as a hero in Libya simply underscores what kind of insanity the world faces.

On the boycott, the chumps who started this can kiss my toe. There is no way that Americans are going to change their plans because of this. Many of us Yanks fondly identify with Scotland as our ancestral home, and some dopey political decisions is hardly worth considering when we choose a holiday destination.

To underscore the fact that the boycott morons can shove it, I am going to visit Caithness next month (from San Diego).

Screw you boycott.

Bruce H

[scotsboy]

I think it was the correct decision to release him and feel a real sense of pride in the Scottish legal system that this was able to be done particularly in the face of such pressure from others.

In my opinion it is a win-win situation. If he was innocent (and it is a shame his appeal could not proceed) then a free man has been released, if he was guilty then it shows a level of compassion that he (and possibly many others) did not have and provides those who would carry out such acts a demonstration of what it is to be a civilized society.

Don't find myself saying this too often, but today I am proud of the Scottish government.

[crayola]

So, in typical redneck fashion, the Yanks have set up a boycottscotland website in reaction to this, eh? Funny. Given the fact that Google stopped giving out gmail addresses about two years ago and changed it to googlemail.com addresses, it means, either, the boycottscotland gmail address has been on hold for some time, or, it's a fake. The domain, incidentally, was registered yesterday in Canada, of all places. I think it's still gmail in the United States and Canada.

Gmail trademark disputes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmail#United_Kingdom)

[porshiepoo]

IMO this whole fiasco just highlights the weaknesses of Scots Law and the Scottish Judicial System.

"bound by Scottish values to release him" What a joke! What about the value of 270 human lives? What about Scottish values being compassionate to the friends, families and survivors left behind? What about the community and village that were destroyed by this guy?

Life should mean life, especially when 270 lives were slaughtered under the name of terrorism. What kind of message does this send to the world?
MacAskill can claim as much as he likes that it shows the compassion that Scots have but that's all just hot air, I for one would rather be seen as an awful person but know this guy will never be free again.

In his speech he spent ages condemning everyone else for making this decision possible but at the end of the day he was sentenced under Scots Law and the decision was a Scots decision to make. It doesn't matter how the situation came about or how Megrahi was able to make this request. At the end of the day the decision was made by MacAskill and I think it's a decision we could all live to regret, he put the personal situation of one murdering b*****d above the hopes, feelings and needs of his own country and many many others.

Megrahi's freedom should only have come about with his death!

[porshiepoo]

I think it was the correct decision to release him and feel a real sense of pride in the Scottish legal system that this was able to be done particularly in the face of such pressure from others.

In my opinion it is a win-win situation. If he was innocent (and it is a shame his appeal could not proceed) then a free man has been released, if he was guilty then it shows a level of compassion that he (and possibly many others) did not have and provides those who would carry out such acts a demonstration of what it is to be a civilized society.

Don't find myself saying this too often, but today I am proud of the Scottish government.


Totally disagree.
If he was Innocent, then it just shows a weakness in the Scottish system.
If he was guilty then it shows an even worse weakness that he could be released on ANY grounds.

Wanting the guy to spend his entire life in prison does not make anyone less compassionate than the next person. All it means is that we show our compassion to those that truly deserve it - the victims, the victims families and all those people who have been in anyway damaged, maimed or traumatised by this guys acts.
Megrahi deserves no compassion. He showed no compassion to those on that flight, no compassion to the family of those onboard and no compassion for those on the ground, furthermore his 'heroe's welcome' shows nothing but contempt for all those victims and their families.
He knew exactly what he was doing, he knew what devastation he would cause and he CHOSE to do it anyway.
You would think that most Laws would mean 'Crime means Time'. How much time has this guy actually served? 10 years or so? 10 years for 270 lives - that is what Scots Law Stands for and THAT is what you are proud of?

[Messi10]

Very interesting read. Stick with it.


Monday, August 17, 2009
Tam Dalyell writes on the truths about Lockerbie which London & Washington don’t want to hear
This weekend’s Mail on Sunday saw a very interesting article from former Labour MP Tam Dalyell on what many don’t want to hear about the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in December 1988.


The Mail on Sunday (Scottish edition) reports :


August 16 2009, The Mail on Sunday (Scottish Edition).


The truth about Lockerbie? That’s the last thing the Americans want the world to know.


By Tam Dalyell Former Labour MP for Linlithgow and former Father of the House of Commons.


WHY have US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and her officials' responded to the return of Megrahi with such a volcanic reaction? The answer is straightforward. The last thing that Washington wants is the truth to emerge about the role of the US in the crime of Lockerbie. I understand the grief of those parents, such as Kathleen Flynn and Bert Ammerman, who have appeared on our TV screens to speak about the loss of loved ones. Alas all these years they have been lied to about the cause of that grief.


Not only did Washington not want the awful truth to emerge, but Mrs Thatcher, a few - very few - in the stratosphere of Whitehall and certain officials of the Crown Office in Edinburgh, who owe their subsequent careers to the Lockerbie investigation, were compliant.


It all started in July 1988 with the shooting down by the warship USS Vincennes of an Iranian airliner carrying 290 pilgrims to Mecca - without an apology.


The Iranian minister of the interior at the time was Ali Akbar Mostashemi, who made a public statement that blood would rain down in the form of ten western airliners being blown out of the sky.


Mostashemi was in a position carry out such a threat - he had been the Iranian ambassador in Damascus from 1982 to 1984 and had developed close relations with the terrorist gangs of Beirut and the Bekaa Valley - and in particular terrorist leader Abu Nidal and Ahmed Jibril, the head of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command.


Washington was appalled. I believe so appalled and fearful that it entered into a Faustian agreement that, tit-for-tat, one airliner should be sacrificed.


This may seem a dreadful thing for me to say. But consider the facts. A notice went up in the US Embassy in Moscow advising diplomats not to travel with Pan Am back to America for Christmas.


American military personnel were pulled off the plane. A delegation of South


Africans, including foreign minister Pik Botha, were pulled off Pan Am Flight 103 at the last minute.


Places became available. Who took them at the last minute? The students. Jim Swire's daughter, John Mosey's daughter, Martin Cadman's son, Pamela Dix’s brother, other British relatives, many of whom you have seen on television in recent days, and, crucially, 32 students of the University of Syracuse, New York.


If it had become known - it was the interregnum between Ronald Reagan demitting office and George Bush Snr entering the White House - that, in the light of the warning, Washington had pulled VIPs but had allowed Bengt Carlsson, the UN negotiator for Angola whom it didn't like, and the youngsters to travel to their deaths, there would have been an outcry of US public opinion.


No wonder the government of the United States and key officials do not want the world to know what they have done.


If you think that this is fanciful, consider more facts. When the relatives went to see the then UK Transport Secretary, Cecil Parkinson, he told them he did agree that there should be a public inquiry. Going out of the door as they were leaving, as an afterthought he said: 'Just one thing. I must clear permission for a public inquiry with colleagues'. Dr Swire, John Mosey and Pamela Dix, the secretary of the Lockerbie relatives, imagined that it was a mere formality. A fortnight later, sheepishly, Parkinson informed them that colleagues had not agreed. At that time there was only one colleague who could possibly have told Parkinson that he was forbidden to do something in his own department. That was the Prime Minister. Only she could have told Parkinson to withdraw his offer, certainly, in my opinion, knowing the man, given in good faith.


Fast forward 13 years. I was the chairman of the all-party House of Commons group on Latin America. I had hosted Dr Alvaro Uribe, the president of Colombia, between the time that he won the election and formally took control in Bogota. The Colombian ambassador, Victor Ricardo, invited me to dinner at his residence as Dr Uribe wanted to continue the conversations with me.


The South Americans are very formal. A man takes a woman in to dinner. To make up numbers, Ricardo had invited a little old lady, his neighbour. I was mandated to take her in to dinner. The lady was Margaret Thatcher, to whom I hadn't spoken for 17 years since I had been thrown out of the Commons for saying she had told a self-serving fib in relation to the Westland affair.


I told myself to behave. As we were sitting down to dinner, the conversation went like this.


'Margaret, I'm sorry your "head" was injured by that idiot who attacked your sculpture in the Guildhall.'


She replied pleasantly: 'Tam, I'm not sorry for myself, but I am sorry for the sculptor.'


Raising the soup spoon, I ventured: 'Margaret, tell me one thing - why in 800 pages...'


'Have you read my autobiography?' she interrupted, purring with pleasure.


Yes, I have read it very carefully. Why in 800 pages did you not mention Lockerbie once?' Mrs Thatcher replied: 'Because I didn't know what happened and I don't write about things that I don't know about.'


My jaw dropped. 'You don't know. But, quite properly as Prime Minister, you went to Lockerbie and looked into First Officer Captain Wagner's eyes.'


She replied: 'Yes, but I don't know about it and I don't write in my autobiography things I don't know about.' My conclusion is that she had been told by Washington on no account to delve into the circumstances of what really happened that awful night.


Whitehall complied. I acquit the Scottish judges Lord Sutherland, Lord Coulsfield and Lord MacLean at Megrahi's trial of being subject to pressure, though I am mystified as to how they could have arrived at a verdict other than 'Not Guilty' -or at least 'Not Proven'.


As soon as I left the Colombian ambassador's residence, I reflected on the enormity of what Mrs Thatcher had said.


Her relations with Washington were paramount. She implied that she had abandoned her natural and healthy curiosity about public affairs to blind obedience to what the US administration wished. Going along with the Americans was one of her tenets of faith.


On my last visit to Megrahi, in Greenock Prison in November last year, he said to me: 'Of course I am desperate to go back to Tripoli. I want to see my five children growing up. But I want to go back as an innocent man.'


I quite understand the human reasons why, given his likely life expectancy, he is prepared, albeit desperately reluctantly, to abandon the appeal procedure

[scotsboy]

That of course is your opinion Porshiepoo.

Our penal system is based upon rehabilitation and not punishment, I am nit sure I agree with that, but that is the way it is. In this case I see it serving no good that this individual spends the remaining days of his life in jail.

I am not sure of you are aware of the case, but I feel a little uneasy that the chief witness was paid $2 million dollars for his testimony.

I think he was a scapegoat and not involved in the incident.

You disagree, you want him to “suffer”, I don’t think him being in jail is suffering enough if he was guilty.

[Gene Hunt]

Personally I am glad I am Welsh today.

The Scottish Justice sytem is now a Joke. It doesnt have the courage of its own convcitions. It will forever be seen by the outside world as being weak and feckless. A country where compassion for a convicted criminal is more important than punishing him. And before the tinfoil hat brigade wade in quoting other every Tom Dick and Harry consider this .. he was convicted and DROPPED his appeal. Why was that ??, he was not bothered about being declared innocent he just wanted to go home.

And you let him.

Well played the Wimps in the Scottish Goverment.

[scotsboy]

Personally I am glad I am Welsh today.

The Scottish Justice sytem is now a Joke. It doesnt have the courage of its own convcitions. It will forever be seen by the outside world as being weak and feckless. A country where compassion for a convicted criminal is more important than punishing him. And before the tinfoil hat brigade wade in quoting other every Tom Dick and Harry consider this .. he was convicted and DROPPED his appeal. Why was that ??, he was not bothered about being declared innocent he just wanted to go home.

And you let him.

Well played the Wimps in the Scottish Goverment.

Disagree Gene, it is seen by the USA, Fox News et al as a joke...........I can live with that.

[Gene Hunt]

Disagree Gene, it is seen by the USA, Fox News et al as a joke...........I can live with that.

Sorry but not the case.

It was being discussed in the pub last night and among the comments made were .. "Good job Myra Hindley wasnt convicted in Scotland then, she would have been out early too"

If you are naive enough to think that the English and Welsh agree with the move made by the Scottish Parliament then I have to say, not the majority from what I have seen and heard.

It would be interesting to hear the views of those who wanted him released on the fact that Libyan and Scottish flags were being waved on his return, and the fact he was hailed as some kind of returning Hero. Make you feel proud to be Scottish did it ??

[PantsMAN]

If you are naive enough to think that the English and Welsh agree with the move made by the Scottish Parliament then I have to say, not the majority from what I have seen and heard.

It would be interesting to hear the views of those who wanted him released on the fact that Libyan and Scottish flags were being waved on his return, and the fact he was hailed as some kind of returning Hero. Make you feel proud to be Scottish did it ??

Why should the Scottish Nation be concerned about the current train of thought of either the Welsh or the English?

As far as a bit of flag waving goes - so what? And what difference does it make? I am proud to be a member of the nation that can think independently and shrug off the views of overbearing, small-minded bullies.

And as for that balloon David Cameron - talk about a joke![lol]

[balto]

what is ranting and raving going to do, absolutly nothing, its a disgrace he was freed, but it has happened, this should now be the end of it.

[bothyman]

The Americans cannot complain after this Incident.

They didn't even apologise.

There was a Programme about it on TV .

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

This one was closer to home.

>> http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-59445.html

[Tubthumper]

Sorry but not the case.

It was being discussed in the pub last night and among the comments made were .. "Good job Myra Hindley wasnt convicted in Scotland then, she would have been out early too"

If you are naive enough to think that the English and Welsh agree with the move made by the Scottish Parliament then I have to say, not the majority from what I have seen and heard.

It would be interesting to hear the views of those who wanted him released on the fact that Libyan and Scottish flags were being waved on his return, and the fact he was hailed as some kind of returning Hero. Make you feel proud to be Scottish did it ??
Get stuffed Gene. If you don't like (a) our country (b) our org, then why not beat it and leave us in peace. Wales is lucky not to have to deal with such sensitive subjects. Discussions in the pub? All you're fit for.
Tchyoub!

[The Pepsi Challenge]

Everyone seems to have made their minds up, so here's mine. Megrahi is innocent; he was stitched up. Am sure it's no secret.

[Gene Hunt]

Get stuffed Gene. If you don't like (a) our country (b) our org, then why not beat it and leave us in peace. Wales is lucky not to have to deal with such sensitive subjects. Discussions in the pub? All you're fit for.
Tchyoub!

Ah diddums.

Is that your only response when you face criticism ??, spit the dummy when someone criticises one of your actions. If your big enough to take a course of action as a country then you should be big enough for it to be scrutinised without whining like a child and demanding that the nasty man go away.

So tell you what .. you get stuffed.

[The Pepsi Challenge]

I wonder if the US would take Scotlands view into account if things were reversed and it was a plane load of scots killed over america.

It doesnt really apply i suppose because america wouldnt release the culprit even if he only had a day left to live.

The justice system that we have set up is not adequate to cover crimes of international terrorism - witness the complete breakdown of UK justice due to the Troubles in the 70s and 80s and the mess that the Americans have made of their justice system since 9/11 (Guantanamo) as two shining examples.

Surely no one believes that we have the full story with the Lockerbie bombing? The case against Megrahi was full of holes so big you could drive a bus through them. What we are witnessing is the total faith that must be placed in the justice system - he was convicted, therefore he did, 100%. I don't buy it - there have been too many cases of innocent people being locked up to satisfy the people's demands for justice in the face of terrorist acts for me to have much faith in them.

Oh and the Americans getting huffy about treatment of prisoners? Please. I'd tell them to go take a run at themselves.

Anyway, Buddy, this should make for interesting reading:

1988: US warship shoots down Iranian airliner
"An American naval warship patrolling in the Persian Gulf has shot down an Iranian passenger jet after apparently mistaking it for an F-14 fighter.

All those on board the airliner - almost 300 people - are believed dead.

The plane, an Airbus A300, was making a routine flight from Bandar Abbas, in Iran, to Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.

The USS Vincennes had tracked the plane electronically and warned it to keep away. When it did not the ship fired two surface-to-air missiles, at least one of which hit the airliner.

Navy officials said the Vincennes' crew believed they were firing at an Iranian F14 jet fighter, although they had not confirmed this visually.

No survivors

The plane blew up six miles from the Vincennes, the wreckage falling in Iranian territorial waters.

Iranian ships and helicopters have been searching for survivors but none have so far been found. Iranian television broadcast scenes of bodies floating amid scattered debris.

Iran has reacted with outrage, accusing the United States of a "barbaric massacre" and vowed to "avenge the blood of our martyrs".

President Reagan said the Vincennes had taken "a proper defensive action" and called the incident an "understandable accident", although he said he regretted the loss of life.

'Deep regret'

Admiral William J Crowe, Jr, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said at a Pentagon news conference that the US government deeply regretted the incident.

However, he said, the Airbus was four miles west of the usual commercial airline route and the pilot ignored repeated radio warnings from the Vincennes to change course.

Less than an hour before the shooting down of the passenger jet, he added, the Vincennes was engaged in a gun battle with three Iranian gunboats after a helicopter from the Vincennes was fired on.

The president promised a full investigation into how a passenger jet came to be mistaken for a fighter jet, which is two-thirds smaller.

US warships have been escorting Kuwaiti tankers in and out of the Persian Gulf since last July as part of its controversial undertaking to keep the Straits of Hormuz open during the eight-year-old Iran-Iraq War.

Pentagon officials acknowledged at the time that increased US military presence would risk provoking confrontations with Iran.

Last May the patrol frigate USS Stark was almost sunk by an Iraqi fighter-bomber, killing 37 sailors. Vigilance was tightened after the incident."


This incident is regularly referenced to show that there is probably more to the Lockerbie bombing than has been said.

[golach]

Personally I am glad I am Welsh today.



And I am also glad your are Welsh, someone with your attitude, should stick with your own, we have already seen how you react to criticism,just throw your rattle out of the pram again, but this time stay away.
I am extremely proud of being a Scot, warts an all,

[scorrie]

If you had any kin tied in with that flight I'm certain you would have negative feelings of him going free.

Not necessarily, some of the victims relatives have welcomed the move. It all depends on what type of person you are and whether you can embrace the concept of forgiveness. A few people are able to do this when the perpetrator is clearly guilty. I admire their ability to do so, as I doubt I could achieve such a resolution in the same scenario. I would suggest that more people would be willing to forgive, if accepting that there was some element of doubt concerning guilt.

I may be wrong, but I suspect that some people simply need a figure whom they can direct their anger at for the rest of their lives. I am not sure I find that a useful way for moving on in life after a tragedy but it seems to be the most common-place.

[Gene Hunt]

And I am also glad your are Welsh, someone with your attitude, should stick with your own, we have already seen how you react to criticism,just throw your rattle out of the pram again, but this time stay away.
I am extremely proud of being a Scot, warts an all,

I didnt get "criticism" the last time Golach. I got a whole heap of abuse levelled at me and my family because of their colour. I left because I wanted to devote my time into coming face to face with the individual doing it. Which I did when I was on a liason visit, he was easy to track down and he wasnt as mouthy in real life as he was from behind a keyboard. Most people arent though.

If you are such a proud Scot, and I dont doubt you are, then you would be able to take criticism for a decision you stand behind. Instead of whining like a kid who has had his toys nicked because someone says something you dont like.

Do One yourself.

[golach]

If you are such a proud Scot, and I dont doubt you are, then you would be able to take criticism for a decision you stand behind. Instead of whining like a kid who has had his toys nicked because someone says something you dont like.Do One yourself.
I am able to take criticism and attacks on any of my personal thoughts and opinions, but when I see criticism of my Nation, from someone, who does not have a country of their own, only a principality, then, yes I feel aggrieved, not whining Mr Hunt, just stating fact.

[scotsboy]

Sorry but not the case.

It was being discussed in the pub last night and among the comments made were .. "Good job Myra Hindley wasnt convicted in Scotland then, she would have been out early too"

If you are naive enough to think that the English and Welsh agree with the move made by the Scottish Parliament then I have to say, not the majority from what I have seen and heard.

It would be interesting to hear the views of those who wanted him released on the fact that Libyan and Scottish flags were being waved on his return, and the fact he was hailed as some kind of returning Hero. Make you feel proud to be Scottish did it ??

Ok Gene, the USA, Fox news and regulars at your pub..........I can live with that.

Of course if people do not know the facts surrounding the case and the events that led to the actual event it makes it difficult to understand the release of this man.

I actually thought the scenes in Libya were unfortunate, but to be expected, they see it as vindication that they were bit players in the incident and that the blame lies with Iran.

Perhaps we can contrast the “Lockerbie Bomber” (sic) who protests his innocence with the man who gave the order to shoot down Iran Air Flight 655, Captain William C. Rogers III, who at the end of his tour was presented with the Legion of Merit, and today I understand lives comfortably in San Diego. For those not familiar with the shooting down of this civilian aircraft I can tell you that there were 290 people on board including 66 children………..the USA has never accepted responsibility and never apologized to Iran for the “incident”.

In places where the influence of the Western media is minimal Scotland will be seen as a fair and just country. If it isn’t in your wee corner of South Wales I don’t really care Gene, because on this occasion you are shooting from the hip.

[northener]

Very interesting read. Stick with it.


Monday, August 17, 2009
Tam Dalyell writes on the truths about Lockerbie which London & Washington don’t want to hear........


I did stick with it. And as usual Mr Dalyell has come out with more politically motivated tripe. This guy has jumped on more bandwagons than the Stones on tour.

Any chance he sees to rubbish the Tories (or whoever he has fallen out with at the time) by launching attacks on the back of sensitive and emotional subjects will be taken up with glee. He cares not for the subject of his tedious waffling - only for the damage he hopes to inflict on any of his potential political targets.

Don't forget that this is the man that tried to make political (anti-Thatcher, in this case) gain from the sinking of the General Belgrano during the Falklands War by claiming that "It was sailing away from the Taskforce" - thus displaying complete ignorance of the facts surrounding the events leading up to the sinking and absolutely no concept of naval warfare whatsoever.

I'll listen to any reasonable opinion from anyone, apart from self-serving ignorant muppets like Dalyell.

And well done Scotland for letting our Libyan 'guest' go.
Why the hell should we be influenced by pressure from outwith our borders when it comes to our own decision making by elected Government?

A good day for Scotland.

[Gene Hunt]

Ok Gene, the USA, Fox news and regulars at your pub..........I can live with that.

Of course if people do not know the facts surrounding the case and the events that led to the actual event it makes it difficult to understand the release of this man.

I actually thought the scenes in Libya were unfortunate, but to be expected, they see it as vindication that they were bit players in the incident and that the blame lies with Iran.

Perhaps we can contrast the “Lockerbie Bomber” (sic) who protests his innocence with the man who gave the order to shoot down Iran Air Flight 655, Captain William C. Rogers III, who at the end of his tour was presented with the Legion of Merit, and today I understand lives comfortably in San Diego. For those not familiar with the shooting down of this civilian aircraft I can tell you that there were 290 people on board including 66 children………..the USA has never accepted responsibility and never apologized to Iran for the “incident”.

In places where the influence of the Western media is minimal Scotland will be seen as a fair and just country. If it isn’t in your wee corner of South Wales I don’t really care Gene, because on this occasion you are shooting from the hip.

Cheers Scotsboy. I made a point, your ok with it. As you say I am happy with that. I just find it amusing that after the self congratulation and back patting at how compassionate the Scottish people are when someone challenges the decision some rush up and spit the dummy at me, and tell me to get lost. Ah Diddums. And by the way the guy who made the comment was Scottish and not Welsh. I maintain if you are big enough to stand by a decision fair play to you. But be prepared for others to disagree with it without whining like a toddler.

As for the Vincennes incident, and you will have to bear with me here as I am an Air Traffic Controller and didnt just pick the details up off the Internet or Wikipedia. This incident has been used by myself and others as a teaching ex to show how every accident is a link in the chain and all it takes to avoid an incident is to break one link, both sides were at fault in that incident. We use it as an example of the importance of getting and maintaining two way contact with aircraft.

The Vincennes incident was against a background of incidents such as Iranian F-4's and F-14's doing infra red and radar missile locks on American P-3 Patrol aircraft while in International waters. On the day of the Iran Air shoot down the aircraft was off track and did not match the expoected schedule. The aircraft was contacted on 243.0 Mhz as it was suspected of being a militairy aircraft. By the way a radar blip is the same size on the screen despite the size of the aircraft despite what the Internet experts say, there was no contact on that Freq and the track was notified as a "Zombie" which means unknown. At this point workload goes up and from what can be ascertained NO contact was made on the 121.5 Mhz frequency that can be positivly identified. That was a the mistake on the Americans part. The aircraft should have had 121.5 and 243.0 set though as there were both civil and militairy aircraft in the area. Basic Airmanship would mean that having both those freqs set would mean a militairy Mayday or PAN call would have been heard by the Iranian aircraft and they would render assistance. The aircraft tracked to a point that the designation was changed to "Bandit" and the decision was made to shoot it down as it was close enough to pose a danger to the Vincennes had it been hostile. And generally aircraft that attack warships dont announce their intentions first. That the aircraft was shot down was a tragedy but there was fault on both sides. But hey what do I know eh ??, I actually deal with aircraft every day and didnt read Wiki and take it as gospel. The Vincennes was only in the Gulf anyway because the Iranians had mined the ship it replaced so they arent exactly blameless are they ??, they had been cranking up tension there for a long time.

So the incident was far from a callous shoot down. I suspect that the Lockerbie bombing was a paid for act by Iran in retaliation for this accident but I havent seen anything to prove that and I doubt I ever will. But to compare a man deliberatly putting a bomb on an aircraft and the Vincennes episode just doesnt ring true. The Capt of that ship was wrong but twenty twenty hindsight is a wonderful thing. If the track had been hostile and he had done nothing he would have been wrong and pillored for that too.

And I wouldnt have apologised either. The Iranians were funding groups in Iraq attacking us so I have no sympathy for them at all. But then there are plenty of other people willing to fight their corner so they dont need me after all. I care about my own first and foremost.

[tonkatojo]

Personally I am glad I am Welsh today.

The Scottish Justice sytem is now a Joke. It doesnt have the courage of its own convcitions. It will forever be seen by the outside world as being weak and feckless. A country where compassion for a convicted criminal is more important than punishing him. And before the tinfoil hat brigade wade in quoting other every Tom Dick and Harry consider this .. he was convicted and DROPPED his appeal. Why was that ??, he was not bothered about being declared innocent he just wanted to go home.

And you let him.

Well played the Wimps in the Scottish Goverment.

WELSH ??. do I not remember you saying you were born in Wick ?.

[Gene Hunt]

I am able to take criticism and attacks on any of my personal thoughts and opinions, but when I see criticism of my Nation, from someone, who does not have a country of their own, only a principality, then, yes I feel aggrieved, not whining Mr Hunt, just stating fact.

Ah right.

I am inferior because I come from a Principality. Would this be the same principality that regularly sends your Rugby team home "tae think again" ??

[Gene Hunt]

WELSH ??. do I not remember you saying you were born in Wick ?.

I was, when my parents were on Holiday. But I am from Maerdy, South Wales. Its a principality to the South .. ;)

[bothyman]

And I wouldnt have apologised either. .

Interesting, neither did the alleged Lockerbie Bomber and that is one of the things people keep bringing up ??

What would have happened if Iran had shot down an American Airliner, would America have forgotten about it ??

America is out for revenge, without thinking of all the innocent People that have died because of their actions..

Goverment's tell us what they want us to hear which is not always the Truth.

[golach]

Ah right.

I am inferior because I come from a Principality. Would this be the same principality that regularly sends your Rugby team home "tae think again" ??
Has a nerve been struck here? Now its cheap shots about sport, which I have no interest in, I think you are losing the plot.
As for you pm of wanting to meet me face to face in Edinburgh, I dont think so, threats like that are only made by bullys.

[Gene Hunt]

Has a nerve been struck here? Now its cheap shots about sport, which I have no interest in, I think you are losing the plot.
As for you pm of wanting to meet me face to face in Edinburgh, I dont think so, threats like that are only made by bullys.

My "cheap shot" was a witty reply to your assumption that I am not qualified to comment on events in your country because I come from a "principality", I dont react well to people declaring me inferior. Its a Welsh trait, we dont like it.

If you want to proclaim yourself as better than me then you should at least be willing to say that to my face, if your not willing to do that then it says a lot more about you than it does about me. I simply wanted you to assert your so called superiority to my face the next time I was passing through Edinburgh, hardly the act of a "Bully".

Pick on someone who will take your drivel next time is my advice.

[scotsboy]

Cheers Scotsboy. I made a point, your ok with it. As you say I am happy with that. I just find it amusing that after the self congratulation and back patting at how compassionate the Scottish people are when someone challenges the decision some rush up and spit the dummy at me, and tell me to get lost. Ah Diddums. And by the way the guy who made the comment was Scottish and not Welsh. I maintain if you are big enough to stand by a decision fair play to you. But be prepared for others to disagree with it without whining like a toddler.

As for the Vincennes incident, and you will have to bear with me here as I am an Air Traffic Controller and didnt just pick the details up off the Internet or Wikipedia. This incident has been used by myself and others as a teaching ex to show how every accident is a link in the chain and all it takes to avoid an incident is to break one link, both sides were at fault in that incident. We use it as an example of the importance of getting and maintaining two way contact with aircraft.

The Vincennes incident was against a background of incidents such as Iranian F-4's and F-14's doing infra red and radar missile locks on American P-3 Patrol aircraft while in International waters. On the day of the Iran Air shoot down the aircraft was off track and did not match the expoected schedule. The aircraft was contacted on 243.0 Mhz as it was suspected of being a militairy aircraft. By the way a radar blip is the same size on the screen despite the size of the aircraft despite what the Internet experts say, there was no contact on that Freq and the track was notified as a "Zombie" which means unknown. At this point workload goes up and from what can be ascertained NO contact was made on the 121.5 Mhz frequency that can be positivly identified. That was a the mistake on the Americans part. The aircraft should have had 121.5 and 243.0 set though as there were both civil and militairy aircraft in the area. Basic Airmanship would mean that having both those freqs set would mean a militairy Mayday or PAN call would have been heard by the Iranian aircraft and they would render assistance. The aircraft tracked to a point that the designation was changed to "Bandit" and the decision was made to shoot it down as it was close enough to pose a danger to the Vincennes had it been hostile. And generally aircraft that attack warships dont announce their intentions first. That the aircraft was shot down was a tragedy but there was fault on both sides. But hey what do I know eh ??, I actually deal with aircraft every day and didnt read Wiki and take it as gospel. The Vincennes was only in the Gulf anyway because the Iranians had mined the ship it replaced so they arent exactly blameless are they ??, they had been cranking up tension there for a long time.

So the incident was far from a callous shoot down. I suspect that the Lockerbie bombing was a paid for act by Iran in retaliation for this accident but I havent seen anything to prove that and I doubt I ever will. But to compare a man deliberatly putting a bomb on an aircraft and the Vincennes episode just doesnt ring true. The Capt of that ship was wrong but twenty twenty hindsight is a wonderful thing. If the track had been hostile and he had done nothing he would have been wrong and pillored for that too.

And I wouldnt have apologised either. The Iranians were funding groups in Iraq attacking us so I have no sympathy for them at all. But then there are plenty of other people willing to fight their corner so they dont need me after all. I care about my own first and foremost.

Gene, if we were all the same it would be a boring World. You wont get any toys thrown out of the pram from me........freedom of speech, civil and religous liberty for all.......if you have an opinion you should expect and respect someone to have a different one.

I am a Unionist, have never hid that fact - I hate Scottish Nationalism (in fact I despise ALL Nationalism), but I think the SNP got this right.

I think my comparison of the lockerbie bomber and the Ships Captain, are a lot closer than the bomber ands Myra Hindley BTW;)

[peter macdonald]

Sorry but I cant get the photos on here...This arcticle seems a lot more balanced and less frenzied than our media seems to be
Also the New York Times seems so bothered today that there coverage of Lockerbie etc comes underneath Hawaii having their 50th birthday as a state!! ie well down the list
Make up your own minds ...no further comment
PM
SEARCH:
washingtonpost.com
Web
Powered by Google
| Search Archives
washingtonpost.com > World > Wires
Libya keeps Lockerbie bomber under wraps
By TAREK EL-TABLAWY
The Associated Press
Friday, August 21, 2009; 10:58 AM

TRIPOLI, Libya -- Libya kept the Lockerbie bomber out of sight Friday, apparently wary of hurting its improving ties with the West, as Britain's foreign secretary denounced his warm homecoming and warned that the world's view of Tripoli will be damaged if it trumpets his release.

A crowd waving Libyan and Scottish flags threw flower petals as Abdel Baset al-Megrahi landed Thursday night at Tripoli airport following his release from prison by Scotland. The son of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, who was on the flight escorting him home, raised al-Megrahi's hand in victory at the aircraft's door.

But even as al-Megrahi descended from the airplane, Libya seemed to scramble to scale down plans for an elaborate welcome. Hundreds in the crowd were rushed away by authorities, the arrival was not aired live on state TV and al-Megrahi was quickly whisked away to an unknown location.

On Friday, officials had no comment on his whereabouts. Libyan television did not report on al-Megrahi, concentrating on sports and stories about the holy fasting month of Ramadan, which began in Libya on Friday.

British Foreign Secretary David Miliband on Friday denounced the welcome al-Megrahi received, telling the BBC that how Gadhafi's government behaves in the next few days will "be very significant in the way the world views Libya's re-entry into the civilized community of nations."

Prime Minister Gordon Brown wrote to Gadhafi before al-Megrahi's release urging Libya to "act with sensitivity."
ad_icon

On Thursday, President Barack Obama said he was in touch with Libyan authorities and told them al-Megrahi, a former Libyan intelligence officer, should not be "welcomed in some way but instead should be under house arrest."

The silence Friday and the sudden, last-minute toning down of celebrations the night before suggested that Libya wants to ensure its ties with the United States and Europe, which have improved dramatically after years as a pariah state - in part over the 1988 Lockerbie attack, in which 270 people, mostly Americans.

Al-Megrahi, who is dying of prostate cancer, was freed by Scotland on compassionate grounds after serving eight years of a life sentence over the attack. The decision infuriated the families of many of the U.S. victims.

Richard Dalton, a former British ambassador to Libya, said that it appeared Libyan officials made a "last minute attempt to stage a low-key reception."

Speaking to Britain's Sky News, he cautioned against Western governments "acting too sharply" over the scenes of al-Megrahi's return.

"In Libyan terms, it was not a hero's welcome. They made pretty credible efforts of playing down the event," he said, adding, "But even the little they did allow was damaging and inappropriate."

In the past, Libya would rarely miss an opportunity to loudly proclaim victory over the West, and the government is able to put together crowds of tens of thousands to chant and cheer if it wants.

Ahead of al-Megrahi's arrival Thursday night, it appeared the leadership was planning such a reception. Several thousand young men were bused in to the airport. On the tarmac where al-Megrahi's plane was to pull up, they danced to nationalist songs while a DJ encouraged them along. Many hoisted small solid-green Libyan flags while others held aloft Scottish flags.

But within minutes of the plane's landing, authorities rushed most of the crowd away, leaving around 300, and the nationalist songs were halted. International media who had been brought to the airport were hastily taken away just before the arrival.

A Libyan TV channel connected to Gadhafi's son, Seif al-Islam Gadhafi, had been granted exclusive rights to air al-Megrahi's arrival live. But it did not do so. Instead, it carried short clips of him coming down the airliner's stairs hours later, around 1 a.m. Authorities said there were technical difficulties with the live broadcast.

Also, neither al-Megrahi nor Seif al-Islam Gadhafi - who escorted him on the flight - appeared later at a previously planned rally at Tripoli's Green Square, a sweeping plaza where thousands of chairs had been set up. The rally was organized as part of celebrations of the 40th anniversary of Libya's revolution - not in connection with al-Megrahi - and his return did not appear to be mentioned during speeches at the rally.

Earlier in the day Thursday, Libyan Prime Minister Mahmoud al-Baghdadi passed up an opportunity during a joint press conference with the Swiss president to comment on the Lockerbie bomber's return.

It could be a sign that the former pariah nation has an increased concern for its international image. Libya spent years under U.N. and U.S. sanctions because of Lockerbie and was isolated as a sponsor of terrorism for alleged involvement in other attacks.

It began to rehabilitate itself by agreeing in 1999 to hand al-Megrahi over for trial in the bombing. Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi also renounced his weapons of mass destruction program and accepted responsibility for the attack, paving the way for the sanctions to be removed.

European nations and the United States restored ties with Tripoli, and in recent years the oil-rich North African nation has started to enjoy the fruits of its new respectability, shaky as it may seem to some critics.

Billions of euros and dollars in foreign investment is starting to arrive in the country. Western energy companies - including Britain's BP PLC - have moved into Libya in an effort to tap the country's vast crude oil and gas wealth.

---

AP correspondents Jill Lawless and Karolina Tagaris in London contributed to this report.


*

[northener]

Sorry but I cant get the photos on here...This arcticle seems a lot more balanced and less frenzied than our media seems to be
Also the New York Times seems so bothered today that there coverage of Lockerbie etc comes underneath Hawaii having their 50th birthday as a state!! ie well down the list
Make up your own minds ...no further comment
PM
SEARCH:
washingtonpost.com
Web
Powered by Google
| Search Archives
washingtonpost.com > World > Wires
Libya keeps Lockerbie bomber under wraps
By TAREK EL-TABLAWY
The Associated Press
Friday, August 21, 2009; 10:58 AM

TRIPOLI, Libya -- Libya kept the Lockerbie bomber out of sight Friday, apparently wary of hurting its improving ties with the West, as Britain's foreign secretary denounced his warm homecoming and warned that the world's view of Tripoli will be damaged if it trumpets his release.

A crowd waving Libyan and Scottish flags threw flower petals as Abdel Baset al-Megrahi landed Thursday night at Tripoli airport following his release from prison by Scotland. The son of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, who was on the flight escorting him home, raised al-Megrahi's hand in victory at the aircraft's door.

But even as al-Megrahi descended from the airplane, Libya seemed to scramble to scale down plans for an elaborate welcome. Hundreds in the crowd were rushed away by authorities, the arrival was not aired live on state TV and al-Megrahi was quickly whisked away to an unknown location.

On Friday, officials had no comment on his whereabouts. Libyan television did not report on al-Megrahi, concentrating on sports and stories about the holy fasting month of Ramadan, which began in Libya on Friday.

British Foreign Secretary David Miliband on Friday denounced the welcome al-Megrahi received, telling the BBC that how Gadhafi's government behaves in the next few days will "be very significant in the way the world views Libya's re-entry into the civilized community of nations."

Prime Minister Gordon Brown wrote to Gadhafi before al-Megrahi's release urging Libya to "act with sensitivity."
ad_icon

On Thursday, President Barack Obama said he was in touch with Libyan authorities and told them al-Megrahi, a former Libyan intelligence officer, should not be "welcomed in some way but instead should be under house arrest."

The silence Friday and the sudden, last-minute toning down of celebrations the night before suggested that Libya wants to ensure its ties with the United States and Europe, which have improved dramatically after years as a pariah state - in part over the 1988 Lockerbie attack, in which 270 people, mostly Americans.

Al-Megrahi, who is dying of prostate cancer, was freed by Scotland on compassionate grounds after serving eight years of a life sentence over the attack. The decision infuriated the families of many of the U.S. victims.

Richard Dalton, a former British ambassador to Libya, said that it appeared Libyan officials made a "last minute attempt to stage a low-key reception."

Speaking to Britain's Sky News, he cautioned against Western governments "acting too sharply" over the scenes of al-Megrahi's return.

"In Libyan terms, it was not a hero's welcome. They made pretty credible efforts of playing down the event," he said, adding, "But even the little they did allow was damaging and inappropriate."

In the past, Libya would rarely miss an opportunity to loudly proclaim victory over the West, and the government is able to put together crowds of tens of thousands to chant and cheer if it wants.

Ahead of al-Megrahi's arrival Thursday night, it appeared the leadership was planning such a reception. Several thousand young men were bused in to the airport. On the tarmac where al-Megrahi's plane was to pull up, they danced to nationalist songs while a DJ encouraged them along. Many hoisted small solid-green Libyan flags while others held aloft Scottish flags.

But within minutes of the plane's landing, authorities rushed most of the crowd away, leaving around 300, and the nationalist songs were halted. International media who had been brought to the airport were hastily taken away just before the arrival.

A Libyan TV channel connected to Gadhafi's son, Seif al-Islam Gadhafi, had been granted exclusive rights to air al-Megrahi's arrival live. But it did not do so. Instead, it carried short clips of him coming down the airliner's stairs hours later, around 1 a.m. Authorities said there were technical difficulties with the live broadcast.

Also, neither al-Megrahi nor Seif al-Islam Gadhafi - who escorted him on the flight - appeared later at a previously planned rally at Tripoli's Green Square, a sweeping plaza where thousands of chairs had been set up. The rally was organized as part of celebrations of the 40th anniversary of Libya's revolution - not in connection with al-Megrahi - and his return did not appear to be mentioned during speeches at the rally.

Earlier in the day Thursday, Libyan Prime Minister Mahmoud al-Baghdadi passed up an opportunity during a joint press conference with the Swiss president to comment on the Lockerbie bomber's return.

It could be a sign that the former pariah nation has an increased concern for its international image. Libya spent years under U.N. and U.S. sanctions because of Lockerbie and was isolated as a sponsor of terrorism for alleged involvement in other attacks.

It began to rehabilitate itself by agreeing in 1999 to hand al-Megrahi over for trial in the bombing. Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi also renounced his weapons of mass destruction program and accepted responsibility for the attack, paving the way for the sanctions to be removed.

European nations and the United States restored ties with Tripoli, and in recent years the oil-rich North African nation has started to enjoy the fruits of its new respectability, shaky as it may seem to some critics.

Billions of euros and dollars in foreign investment is starting to arrive in the country. Western energy companies - including Britain's BP PLC - have moved into Libya in an effort to tap the country's vast crude oil and gas wealth.

---

AP correspondents Jill Lawless and Karolina Tagaris in London contributed to this report.


*


Good God, Headline: "Libyans don't gloat over release of 'hero'......"

That's scunnered a few critics of his release and crushed the sterotypical image of the Libyans straight away....

[porshiepoo]

Why should the Scottish Nation be concerned about the current train of thought of either the Welsh or the English?

As far as a bit of flag waving goes - so what? And what difference does it make? I am proud to be a member of the nation that can think independently and shrug off the views of overbearing, small-minded bullies.

And as for that balloon David Cameron - talk about a joke![lol]


But it wasn't 'the nation' that made that 'independent thinking'. Your particular personal view had no bearing on this outcome whatsoever. It wasn't a nations decision, it was one mans decision. He may claim to speak for the Scottish people but that's a load of codswallop as well you know.
Do you think the Scottish inhabitants at Lockerbie wanted this guy released on 'compassionate grounds'?

[scotsboy]

But it wasn't 'the nation' that made that 'independent thinking'. Your particular personal view had no bearing on this outcome whatsoever. It wasn't a nations decision, it was one mans decision. He may claim to speak for the Scottish people but that's a load of codswallop as well you know.
Do you think the Scottish inhabitants at Lockerbie wanted this guy released on 'compassionate grounds'?

Mibbees aye, Mibbees naw.......the UK families certainly seemed to be on the side of his release.

[shazzap]

As for the politics of this i can't comment as i am not savvy enough of it.
But, as a human being it appals me that someone who has deliberately taken lives has been released to carry on his no matter how long or short it will be. I know if it had been one of my relatives i would under no circumstances be able to forgive. That is my opinion and by what i have read on here others will not agree, but we are all entitled to voice our take on things.

[BINBOB]

And I am also glad your are Welsh, someone with your attitude, should stick with your own, we have already seen how you react to criticism,just throw your rattle out of the pram again, but this time stay away.
I am extremely proud of being a Scot, warts an all,


hear ...hear....;)

[bothyman]

And I am also glad your are Welsh, someone with your attitude, should stick with your own, we have already seen how you react to criticism,just throw your rattle out of the pram again, but this time stay away.
I am extremely proud of being a Scot, warts an all,

I find all this rather hard to take in ??

After all this is Caithness.Org, and someone seems to be in the wrong place ??

[Gene Hunt]

I find all this rather hard to take in ??

After all this is Caithness.Org, and someone seems to be in the wrong place ??

I'll explain. I was born in Caithness while my parents were on Holiday. Although I was born in Caithness I was raised in Wales, hence I am Welsh. I joined the site a while back to find out about where I was born. I then left the site for a while as an orger who was nothing but a pure bred racist kept going at me both on thread and by PM because my wife is black and my kids are mixed race. He wasnt banned until after I left, this is what Golach means by "seeing how I react to criticism", that Orger was later banned. He was tracked down by me and wasnt half as smart to my face as he was behind a keyboard. A sign of things to come.

So after my comments this morning on the release of the bomber and the impression the verdict will give of Scotland I received the above tirade from Golach. It is pretty personal and indicates he thinks that because Wales is a principality and Scotland a country he is somehow superior. So I made a remark about the principality he looked down on humping his team regularly at Rugby. This according to a Golach was a "cheap shot", Golach apparently doesnt like it when people bite back. I then invited him to meet me face to face when I am in Edinburgh in October by PM so the big brave Internet Warrior could prove his superiority. He then accused me of being a Bully when the simple fact is he got back what he dished out and an offer to repeat to my face what he is big enough to type into the ether. What an utter cry baby. He also punctuates and spells like a drunk baby at a typewriter.

But the whole attitude of "if your not from Caithness then you shouldnt be here" is nice. Is that what you tell the tourists ?? there is a Scottish lad here in Aberdare, nice guy who likes it here, from Nairn. There are loads of people here who are not Welsh. The really funny thing is that when he and they voice an opinon we dont agree with we dont suggest he or they shouldnt be here. Then again the lad from Nairn told me that Caithness was a place where the majority iof nice people are eclipsed by a minority of utter .. well I cant say that last word. This site seems the same, majority cool but a minority of .. well, again I cant say that word.

Its hard to disagree.

[balto]

at the end of the day, i think we should feel proud people from other parts of the country want to come on our community forum, at the end of the day we all enter the world the same way and leave the same way.

this thread seems to have become a slanging match, so hows about we get back to the real subject, And just agree to disagree.

[grumpy1]

my balto thats very diplomatic of you.....

its a sin that they let him go... an i feel its a bigger sin that some over paid journalist thinks were interested in seeing his country celebrate the fact...whats even more sickening is that we have folk in prison for less serving much longer its p.c. gone mad ....

[balto]

my balto thats very diplomatic of you.....

its a sin that they let him go... an i feel its a bigger sin that some over paid journalist thinks were interested in seeing his country celebrate the fact...whats even more sickening is that we have folk in prison for less serving much longer its p.c. gone mad ....
still dont see why everyone is getting so worked up at the end of the day he is a free man, no matter how much everyone moans about it, that wont change a thing.

[shazzap]

at the end of the day, i think we should feel proud people from other parts of the country want to come on our community forum, at the end of the day we all enter the world the same way and leave the same way.

this thread seems to have become a slanging match, so hows about we get back to the real subject, And just agree to disagree.


I agree with you Balto, i am not of Caithness origin and hope that it does not matter where i am from. After all everyone who lives here pays into the economy via council tax, and shopping etc and have the same rights as anyone else. That includes the right to voice an opinion.

[gleeber]

He was tracked down by me and wasnt half as smart to my face as he was behind a keyboard. A sign of things to come
Forgive me for changing the topic on this thread. :lol:
Did you really track someone down whom you fell out with on an internet forum? :eek:

[Margaret M.]

Forgive me for changing the topic on this thread.
Did you really track someone down whom you fell out with on an internet forum? :eek:

Yikes! :eek: If one wants to hunt someone down after an on-line debate, it may be time to bypass the message boards.

[Gene Hunt]

Forgive me for changing the topic on this thread. :lol:
Did you really track someone down whom you fell out with on an internet forum? :eek:

Well it wasnt really someone I "fell out" with. More someone who persisted in sending me racist messages concerning my family. It got to the point he was openly taunting me in a manner concerning my family that was pure racist bile. Plus also stating that he hoped my son got killed in Afghanistan wasnt a good move either. And I didnt really "track him down" I found out where he lived through the bare bones of what I knew about him. I then dropped in when I was in that neck of the woods and cordially invited him to repeat what he had said online. I didnt threaten him at all. He declined and I walked away. I just wanted to see if he was the coward I thought he was and I wasnt disappointed. Seeing the look in his eyes was enough for me. Over the years I have had enough digs at my family by small minded spineless meatsticks. This was the straw that broke the camels back. I have a zero tolerance approach these days. I also dont like having people assume they are superior to me because they come from a "country" and I from a "Principality" apaprenty, if you cant back up what you say then dont say it in my view. There are too many gobs on legs today who hide behind bandwidth and then cry foul when called on their own actions.

Anyway, I must be off. I wll try not to let the the door of your "country" hit my backside as I make my way home to my "Principality" .. ;)

[Venture]

Yikes! :eek: If one wants to hunt someone down after an on-line debate, it may be time to bypass the message boards.

I agree with you there Margaret. I have to say I am totally shocked by some of the comments and admissions on here, especially from someone who tracks people down or sends invites for a confrontation just because of something said on an internet forum. Gene it's definitely time to leave.....before you're kicked out. Caithness.org survived without you before and shall do so again.

[_Ju_]

I find all this rather hard to take in ??

After all this is Caithness.Org, and someone seems to be in the wrong place ??

Yes it is: a web site on the internet, of free acess to all. No passport needed to enter here. No formal identification requirements required. No visas demanded. No birth certificate stating a birth no futher south than Inverness demanded to allow participation. It is a website on the WORLD WIDE Web [lol]

[balto]

i can see exactly where gene is coming from to be honest, if its his family that was getting bad mouthed just cause of some mindless idiot then he was right to try and sort this eejit out, at the end of the day how many of you on here would stand by and say or do nothing if it was your family, i know for one i wouldnt .

[Margaret M.]

And I didnt really "track him down" I found out where he lived through the bare bones of what I knew about him. I then dropped in when I was in that neck of the woods and cordially invited him to repeat what he had said online. I didnt threaten him at all. He declined and I walked away. I just wanted to see if he was the coward I thought he was and I wasnt disappointed. Seeing the look in his eyes was enough for me.

I am sure he was quite stunned -- as anyone would be in the same situation. One cannot be too careful these days and it would be frightening to be stalked and confronted by someone "from the Internet". I remember the thread to which you refer and I think you are exaggerating greatly. In my opinion, your behaviour is threatening and irrational.

[Venture]

Has a nerve been struck here? Now its cheap shots about sport, which I have no interest in, I think you are losing the plot.
As for you pm of wanting to meet me face to face in Edinburgh, I dont think so, threats like that are only made by bullys.


Balto there was no mention of his family in golach's post.

As to the original confrontation with the so called "racist", there are two sides to every story. Unfortunately only one has been posted here.

[bothyman]

Yes it is: a web site on the internet, of free acess to all. No passport needed to enter here. No formal identification requirements required. No visas demanded. No birth certificate stating a birth no futher south than Inverness demanded to allow participation. It is a website on the WORLD WIDE Web [lol]


Worldwide, Yes.

But do we really need this sort of thing on the Org.

Hanging out your dirty washing is one thing, but the threats of violence are another thing altogether.

GH perhaps you should look at your Introduction post and read how friendly and caring the people of Caithness were to your Mother and Father when you were born.
And then perhaps it's time to return and rekindle those Friendships.

[tonkatojo]

i can see exactly where gene is coming from to be honest, if its his family that was getting bad mouthed just cause of some mindless idiot then he was right to try and sort this eejit out, at the end of the day how many of you on here would stand by and say or do nothing if it was your family, i know for one i wouldnt .


I for one agree, the problem is someone makes a statement it is usually taken out of context snowballs until it becomes too personal to be ignored, I am not to sure what the law will say about actually "sort the eejit out" type of actions, the moderators should really do their jobs and calm matters before things get out of hand!.
I speak as someone who has been on the receiving end of the bloke in questions posts.

[scorrie]

Yes it is: a web site on the internet, of free acess to all. No passport needed to enter here. No formal identification requirements required. No visas demanded. No birth certificate stating a birth no futher south than Inverness demanded to allow participation. It is a website on the WORLD WIDE Web [lol]

All very true Ju but, there is another protocol that involves not crapping on your host's doorstep when you are visiting!!

[scorrie]

I agree with you there Margaret. I have to say I am totally shocked by some of the comments and admissions on here, especially from someone who tracks people down or sends invites for a confrontation just because of something said on an internet forum. Gene it's definitely time to leave.....before you're kicked out. Caithness.org survived without you before and shall do so again.

From the Bupa website:-

"Coping with confrontation

Confrontations are not always easy to deal with. It's important that you try to express yourself assertively without shouting or losing your cool. You can do this by preparing what you want to say and staying calm. If you find yourself in a heated discussion, try to remember the following:

* it's OK for someone else to have a different opinion
* make yourself clear - try using phrases like, "I feel angry with you because…"
* be clear about what you expect to come out of the discussion
* keep your cool and remember to breathe
* be patient and remember to listen to the other person too
* don't take anything personally

It's important to sort out disagreements with people. If you don't, anger will build up and is likely to turn into resentment, which can cause even more anger. If you face the situation and deal with it calmly and reasonably, you are more likely to sort it out without it developing into a serious problem."

Sound advice I would say.

[davie]

Just looking at BBC online news and Mandleslime is on there lying through his teeth about his meetings with the Libyans (I know he was lying - his lips moved). What did come up of course is the fact that the Broon fellow had been in contact with Gadaffi (sp) requesting no celebrations when the prisoner arrived home. This took place well before MacAskill's announcement so it looks like the hand of New Liebor is all over this story and we will never know the truth.



It is better to live one day as a Tiger than a thousand as a Sheep - unless you are a Welsh sheep where men are 'ard and sheep are terrified.

[tonkatojo]

Just looking at BBC online news and Mandleslime is on there lying through his teeth about his meetings with the Libyans (I know he was lying - his lips moved). What did come up of course is the fact that the Broon fellow had been in contact with Gadaffi (sp) requesting no celebrations when the prisoner arrived home. This took place well before MacAskill's announcement so it looks like the hand of New Liebor is all over this story and we will never know the truth.



It is better to live one day as a Tiger than a thousand as a Sheep - unless you are a Welsh sheep where men are 'ard and sheep are terrified.

Did he not inform new Labour and the US government of his decision a good while before his speech (yawn) to the peasants.

[_Ju_]

All very true Ju but, there is another protocol that involves not crapping on your host's doorstep when you are visiting!!

Actually I am not Caithnessian. Don~t even live there anymore. Not even British, when it comes to that. So I would not be allowed to express an opinion on here, according to what was posted. Not myself and many others.

[Shabbychic]

Actually I am not Caithnessian. Don~t even live there anymore. Not even British, when it comes to that. So I would not be allowed to express an opinion on here, according to what was posted. Not myself and many others.

Ju, you have taken what was said out of context. This is regarding things said earlier on the thread. Everybody, no matter where they come from is welcome to post on here, but when someone comes on and states they are glad they are not Scottish, perhaps they are in the wrong place, especially when they want to track people down to meet them face to face when they disagree with them. That is just not on.

[gleeber]

Well it wasnt really someone I "fell out" with. More someone who persisted in sending me racist messages concerning my family. It got to the point he was openly taunting me in a manner concerning my family that was pure racist bile. Plus also stating that he hoped my son got killed in Afghanistan wasnt a good move either. And I didnt really "track him down" I found out where he lived through the bare bones of what I knew about him. I then dropped in when I was in that neck of the woods and cordially invited him to repeat what he had said online. I didnt threaten him at all. He declined and I walked away. I just wanted to see if he was the coward I thought he was and I wasnt disappointed. Seeing the look in his eyes was enough for me. Over the years I have had enough digs at my family by small minded spineless meatsticks. This was the straw that broke the camels back. I have a zero tolerance approach these days. I also dont like having people assume they are superior to me because they come from a "country" and I from a "Principality" apaprenty, if you cant back up what you say then dont say it in my view. There are too many gobs on legs today who hide behind bandwidth and then cry foul when called on their own actions.

Anyway, I must be off. I wll try not to let the the door of your "country" hit my backside as I make my way home to my "Principality" .. ;)

Just for the sake of clarity, it wasnt Percy who Mr Hunt tracked down whoever else it may have been. Percy would never wish anyones son dead nor would he take unprovoked attacks on anyones family.

[Sister Sledge]

Just for the sake of clarity, it wasnt Percy who Mr Hunt tracked down whoever else it may have been. Percy would never wish anyones son dead nor would he take unprovoked attacks on anyones family.

Thank You Gleeber.

Toboggan wants it known that he would never stoop to such behaviour and has not been 'hunted down' . Neither does he wish to prolong any unpleasantness with anybody . He has moved on.
Recovery is well underway.
He is smiling much more now and pain free and whilst not shrinking from debate and robust argument - he indulges his timeless traits elsewhere.
So do I.
Goodbye.

[Venture]

Welcome to the org Sister Sledge. Not for one moment did any of us think that it was Percy that Gene was referring to. He is too much of a gentleman to have commented the way that Gene has suggested, particularly about his son.

I miss Percy's witty posts. The org is not the same without him. Continued good health to you both.:)

[Bazeye]

Thank You Gleeber.

Toboggan wants it known that he would never stoop to such behaviour and has not been 'hunted down' . Neither does he wish to prolong any unpleasantness with anybody . He has moved on.
Recovery is well underway.
He is smiling much more now and pain free and whilst not shrinking from debate and robust argument - he indulges his timeless traits elsewhere.
So do I.
Goodbye.

Does that mean youre quitting after one post?
Youre not Kevin Keegan are you?

[Alan16]

Does that mean youre quitting after one post?
Youre not Kevin Keegan are you?

Ah, he'll quit. Then come back again in a few years as a saviour... Then leave again in disgrace...

[Bazeye]

Ah, he'll quit. Then come back again in a few years as a saviour... Then leave again in disgrace...

Then come back as the Messiah.
Well hes not hes a very naughty boy.:)

[Boozeburglar]

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

[Boozeburglar]

LOL! I don't know about great minds.. but I do know about funny films! :)

[crayola]

Oui, il est un méchant.

[gleeber]

There are too many gobs on legs today who hide behind bandwidth and then cry foul when called on their own actions.

Anyway, I must be off. I wll try not to let the the door of your "country" hit my backside as I make my way home to my "Principality" .. ;)

Ive always felt uncomfortable by your prescence Mr Hunt but in my world when I feel that way towards anyone I look behind my own nose for the solution. Would you ever consider such an enlightening procedure?
I was disturbed by the gush heaped on you by fellow orgers when you returned from your self imposed exile to the org so i suspect I will have little support for my challenge to your internet personna but challenge you I will.
Your recent revelations concerning tracking someone down on the org are, in my book, rather sinister and I feel kind of exposed by your continued prescence. All your threads concerning the person you tracked down pointed the finger at Percy who paid the price for challenging you although he made a darn fine job of it and gained my admiration for exposing you as a braggart. And now, I discover it wasnt Percy you tracked down. Would you be prepared to enlighten me or will you accept my criticism that you are a lier?
I'm aware this is dangerous talk by me considering the lengths you will go to when challenged but I'm prepared to chance it in the hope that you will disappear up your own Welsh erse and leave the org to it's own special brand of war and peace.
Caithness welcomes people from all over the world and the org is no exception. The welcome extended to you was second to non so don't run crying to your mates in the pub (if you have any that is) telling them how badly you were treated by the org.
Now diddums, Away with you and if you decide to come looking for me please PM first and we can arrange to meet in a public place and we can begin to repair any difficulties which have arisen up until now.

[Gene Hunt]

e
Ive always felt uncomfortable by your prescence Mr Hunt but in my world when I feel that way towards anyone I look behind my own nose for the solution. Would you ever consider such an enlightening procedure?
I was disturbed by the gush heaped on you by fellow orgers when you returned from your self imposed exile to the org so i suspect I will have little support for my challenge to your internet personna but challenge you I will.
Your recent revelations concerning tracking someone down on the org are, in my book, rather sinister and I feel kind of exposed by your continued prescence. All your threads concerning the person you tracked down pointed the finger at Percy who paid the price for challenging you although he made a darn fine job of it and gained my admiration for exposing you as a braggart. And now, I discover it wasnt Percy you tracked down. Would you be prepared to enlighten me or will you accept my criticism that you are a lier?
I'm aware this is dangerous talk by me considering the lengths you will go to when challenged but I'm prepared to chance it in the hope that you will disappear up your own Welsh erse and leave the org to it's own special brand of war and peace.
Caithness welcomes people from all over the world and the org is no exception. The welcome extended to you was second to non so don't run crying to your mates in the pub (if you have any that is) telling them how badly you were treated by the org.
Now diddums, Away with you and if you decide to come looking for me please PM first and we can arrange to meet in a public place and we can begin to repair any difficulties which have arisen up until now.

Why would you look behind your nose for anything, it seems to me there is nothing there but a large gap where your brain should be.

Why would I come looking for you, you havent done anything to me. Plus you dont even sound a challenge, especially if you scrap like you spell and punctuate. If you dont like me thats fine. If you want to paint me as a certain kind of character thats fine. If you want to openly call me a liar thats fine, I was there that day and saw your mate do an impression of a goldfish struggling for air when challenged, he wasnt quite as mouthy offline. In fact he said nothing. That is all I wanted to see and I did. If your mate feels the need to say otherwise then fine. If he is happy deluding himself then fine. If you really feel the need to meet me face to face then seeing as YOU are the the one taking issue with ME why didnt you just send me your details and tell me to meet you so you can avenge your racist buddy ??, why try and bait me ??, a real man would have taken the initiative and not thrown out a lame challenge. Or are you just another Internet Warrior ??, will you turn your post round in reply to this to claim its me challenging you like some seem to favour when they get bitten back after biting. Put up or shut up in other words. Once again Percy proves that he doesnt have the stones he was born with. Not being able to stand up for yourself is bad enough, getting people to do it for you is worse. Getting someone patently incapabale of it is just hilarious. Tell my why was he banned again ?? .. AFTER I went on sabbatical I might add.

As for Percy. He is a Liar, (note the correct spelling) and that is on my the lives of my kids. And I dont take that lightly. I joined the Org to find out about where I was born, I am not going to rant about Orgers, Caithness or the Org as I have met good and bad here just as there is good and bad everywhere. And I have plenty of family and friends thanks, but it brings you comfort to think I dont then carry on. Fill your boots. The impression I get of you is of a Father Jack type figure sitting with porridge trailed down your Norwegian jumper, hair that looks like you combed it with a toffee apple and a look of smug satisfaction that "you told me", but opinons are just that arent they ?? We all have one, just like an ersehole. However unlike you some of us dont keep our head there and remove it just long enough to talk out of it. Nice attempt to bait me but come back when your IQ hits a number you cant reach using your fingers and toes and you manage to locate your testicles.

I have to go now. I have something much more important to do than correspond with you. I dont what that is exactly as the word "anything" fits that category. But you neednt worry I have found out all I need to know about Caithness. I have visited the place and met some top folks on here, most of whom have stopped posting. So relax Gleeber and rest assured you wont have to put up with me, you can do your little victory dance in your own faeces now. I find it amusing that you think I would run to my mates complaining about my "treatment" here, the vast majority are cool and the minority dont bother me in the slightest, If my life is a beach this forum would struggle to be a garain of sand, and you arent even a blip on my radar of life. And to be honest none of my mates care a jot about Caithness, the vast majority dont even know or care where it is !!, although for all the bigging up you do about yourselves this very post is about one of your own who was nothing but an out and out racist. Dwell on that.

I will leave my account open for a week to await details of your vengeance fuelled arrival here in Wales. Seeing as your are the one with the issue I expect you to head south. After a week I will bet there are none, and my assumption of you being a eunuch are true. EDIT .. I am being sarcastic here, just thought I would point that out for you.

But as a final thought I will tell you why you felt uncomfortable with my presence, because you know I wont be intimidated by you or tolerate your drivel. Your very actions on your quoted post show an attempt to bait me to get the desired response so you can them play the victim. People who do that are never comfortable with direct people. Funnily enough just like your pal Percy. No wonder you two are mates.

[gleeber]

No vengence here Mr Hunt. I accept your criticism fully.

[gleeber]

PS
I should have mentioned for those of you who are uncertain, it wasnt Percy Mr Hunt tracked down so unless some poor unsuspecting bloke in Manchester is wondering why some idiot Welsh git should come knocking on his door complaining about his family being subject to racist attacks I stand by my assertion that Mr Hunt is a lier.

[Tubthumper]

Just arrived back to find I appear to have caused something of a stir. Have returned a pm to mr Hunt (who is a bit upset at me for daring to criticise him) to say that if he ever turns up on my doorstep he will swiftly be (a) in pain and (b) in court.
Please permit me to review the preceding posts.

[peter macdonald]

For information
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/

Also Lockerbie and its bomber does not make the front page on the Washington Times
However from the New York Times

NYTimes.com
Qaddafi Praises Britain Over Lockerbie Release

Article Tools Sponsored By
By JOHN F. BURNS
Published: August 22, 2009

LONDON — Already badly shaken by American outrage and opprobrium over the release of the convicted Lockerbie airliner bomber, the British government faced fresh embarrassment on Saturday after the Libyan leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, met with the newly liberated prisoner in Tripoli and thanked Prime Minister Gordon Brown of Britain, “my friend,” for interceding with the Scottish government to let the man go.

Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi, right, kissed the hand of the Libyan leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, at Tripoli airport Friday.
Related
Times Topics: Pan Am Flight 103

Colonel Qaddafi made his remarks as British and Scottish officials were doing their best to distance themselves from Mr. Megrahi’s release, which they insisted was decided without any pressure from London by Scotland’s justice secretary, and based solely on compassion for Mr. Megrahi’s terminal cancer, not Britain’s desire for multibillion-dollar Libyan oil contracts.

The Scottish government also faced fresh criticism from the United States, with the F.B.I. director, Robert S. Mueller III, condemning the release as being “as inexplicable as it is detrimental to the cause of justice.”

Mr. Megrahi, 57, a former Libyan intelligence agent, was convicted of orchestrating the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, on Dec. 21, 1988. A total of 270 people were killed, including 189 Americans.

In an appearance characteristic for its capricious mischief-making, Colonel Qaddafi heaped praise not only on Mr. Brown but on Queen Elizabeth and her second son, Andrew, duke of York, for helping in the release of the bomber, Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi.

He also congratulated the Scottish authorities for “their courage and for having proved their independence despite the unacceptable and illogical pressures they faced,” the Libyan news agency Jana reported.

He continued: “And I say to my friend Brown, the prime minister of Britain; his government; the Queen of Britain, Elizabeth; and Prince Andrew, who all contributed to encouraging the Scottish government to make this historic and courageous decision, despite all the illogical objections.”

Colonel Qaddafi showed a blithe, perhaps contemptuous, indifference to the appeals he received from Mr. Brown and President Obama not to make a spectacle of Mr. Megrahi’s return, staging a carefully orchestrated welcome ceremony at the Tripoli airport on Thursday with hundreds of chanting well-wishers.

Mr. Brown protested, and Mr. Obama described the welcome as “highly objectionable.”

At his meeting with Mr. Megrahi on Friday, Colonel Qaddafi equated the anger among families of the Lockerbie victims at Mr. Megrahi’s release with Libya’s indignation at his conviction for the bombing, which Mr. Megrahi and his supporters have always depicted as a gross miscarriage of justice.

“Do we not also have feelings?” Colonel Qaddafi said, according to Jana. “Are we donkeys, and they humans?”

After 48 hours of mounting controversy in Britain and the United States, there could be little doubt Colonel Qaddafi knew that his remarks about the British government’s help flew in the face of British ministers’ attempts to insulate the government from the fury stirred by Mr. Megrahi’s release from a Scottish prison after serving only eight years of a minimum 27-year sentence, and of the insistent denials that Libyan oil deals were the underlying motivation.

Officially, the Foreign Office in London dismissed Colonel Qaddafi’s remarks, and those of his son, Seif al-Islam el-Qaddafi, who was quoted by a Libyan television station on Friday as having said that “in all commercial contacts for oil and gas with Britain,” Mr. Megrahi’s release “was always on the negotiating table.”

A Foreign Office spokesman flatly denied Saturday that there had been “any deal in relation to Megrahi and any commercial interests in Libya.”

One British official who discussed the situation privately said that Colonel Qaddafi, 67, who is preparing to celebrate the 40th anniversary of his seizure of power in a military coup, was “up to his old tricks,” deploying quixotic behavior and outlandish claims that have confused Libya’s friends and adversaries alike for decades. “Does anybody seriously believe that Qaddafi or any of his people have any influence with the Queen?” the official said.

But not everything Colonel Qaddafi said could be dismissed so lightly. The Foreign Office said Friday that it was reconsidering plans for the Duke of York to attend the 40th anniversary celebrations in Tripoli, a trip that would be his third to Libya in a trade-promoting role. And Mr. Brown, who met Colonel Qaddafi last month during a summit meeting in Italy, has often said, like his predecessor, Tony Blair, that there are lucrative business opportunities for Britain in Libya.

Mr. Blair took pride in leading Western efforts that brought an end to Libya’s years as a pariah state earlier in this decade.

In concert with Washington, he helped push Colonel Qaddafi toward the abandonment of Libya’s covert nuclear weapons program, the reopening of Libyan oilfields to Western investment and the payment of $2.7 billion in compensation to families with relatives who died in the Lockerbie bombing. In official briefings, British officials have stressed the enormous potential for British companies in the Libyan market.

But the furor over Mr. Megrahi has quieted those claims, and the Brown government has sought to distance itself from Colonel Qaddafi. A succession of senior ministers has insisted that the decision to release the bomber was solely the responsibility of the Scottish regional government, which freed him after cancer specialists said he probably had less than three months to live.

Mr. Mueller, who as a senior Justice Department official in the early 1990s led the investigation of Mr. Megrahi, added his voice to the angry reaction on Saturday, posting on the F.B.I.’s Web site a scathing letter to Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish justice secretary who approved Mr. Megrahi’s release.

“Your action makes a mockery of the rule of law,” Mr. Mueller wrote. “You have given those who sought to assure that the persons responsible would be held accountable the back of your hand. Where, I ask, is the justice?”

A Scottish government spokesman defended the decision, saying that Mr. MacAskill had consulted with the United States government and families of the victims, many of whom had supported the release. “Compassionate release is not part of the U.S. justice system but it is part of Scotland’s,” the spokesman said, according to the BBC.

But the British government’s record appeared to be providing the most ammunition to those who question its assertion of an independent decision in the case. Mr. Blair and Mr. Brown each intervened in the negotiation of a prisoner transfer agreement with Libya, with Mr. Megrahi its most obvious beneficiary. While those negotiations were going on, Libya awarded Britain a major oil contract, a $900 million deal involving BP, and dangled the prospect of others.

[Tubthumper]

Get stuffed Gene. If you don't like (a) our country (b) our org, then why not beat it and leave us in peace. Wales is lucky not to have to deal with such sensitive subjects. Discussions in the pub? All you're fit for.
Tchyoub!
That's what I thought I'd said. Mr Hunt had clearly belittled my country and resorted to his accustomed tactics of pulling superiority (in knowledge, experience and opinion) on this forum. My statement that Wales (even used a capital) is lucky is hardly controversial. As for the reference to the pub; perhaps that's where the sensitivity lies, maybe there's a over-fondness for the old Brains SA?
Anyone see anything racist in there?
I must apoligise for the 'Tchyoub' bit - my spelling! I'd do a silly poem for him but I couldn't bear the thought of the pompous git doing a critique!

[Gene Hunt]

Just arrived back to find I appear to have caused something of an stir. Have returned a pm to mr Hunt (who is a bit upset at me for daring to criticise him) to say that if he ever turns up on my doorstep he will swiftly be (a) in pain and (b) in court.
Please permit me to review the preceding posts.

The only way I would ever turn up on your doorstep is if I was succesful in tracking down Britians Greatest Dullard.

Please see my reply. Post that up, as I am out of here anyway .. go on . go on .. :lol:

[gleeber]

I apoligise to the org for my part in this fiasco but I think Mr Hunts true character needed to be exposed.
Make your own minds up.

[Tubthumper]

Well thank goodness he's gone!
Perhaps we should, for the good of air travellers and for his own mental health, track down this chap and report him to his superiors. He's obviously become unbalanced, with a propensity to threatening behaviour. Also doesn't like Wickers much.
It shouldn't be too hard, lives in a wee place in Wales, is an air traffic controller, was in the TA, has been everywhere and done everything, has very strong opinions which must NEVER be criticised...
Anyway, back to our normal dull, dull, six-fingered stuff.
How's everyone?

[Tubthumper]

We need to be careful, trolls can be awfully sophisticated and long-lasting...

[Tubthumper]

I apoligise to the org for my part in this fiasco but I think Mr Hunts true character needed to be exposed.
Make your own minds up.
I'm sorry too. Hope I don't get banned for putting quoted swearwords on! Mods - I was only trying to help!!!

[tonkatojo]

I'm sorry too. Hope I don't get banned for putting quoted swearwords on! Mods - I was only trying to help!!!

I am not sure private messages should be made public the word private should be adhered to, but I can see your point in publicising that message, that was a step or two in the wrong direction he took.
Hope the MODS look favourably on you lol. ;)

[starry]

What a horrible, immature, little man.

[Tubthumper]

What a horrible, immature, little man.
Yes. But we must remember that all Welsh people are not like that. Indeed, he probably isn't Welsh, isn't an Air Traffic Controller and isn't even married. He's probably sitting sniggering because he thinks he's achieved some kind of victory.
Sad really.

[Venture]

Yes. But we must remember that all Welsh people are not like that. Indeed, he probably isn't Welsh, isn't an Air Traffic Controller and isn't even married. He's probably sitting sniggering because he thinks he's achieved some kind of victory.
Sad really.

I think you may be Spot On there as regards Gene Tubthumper. A fine example of a true Welshman being none other than the org's Kevin Milkins.;)

[Tubthumper]

Re balto's post: Well, yes. I don't actually live in Wick, thus it couldn't be directed at me, so I thought it would be wise to let the wider population know of the opinion this gentleman (who sought to contribute to our org community) actually thought of the place.
That's assuming he's a real person, which I'm convinced he's not. I could remove it (indeed the mods possibly will anyway) if you think it could cause serious offence, however we all know none of it is true.
And anyone who can figure out what the words are must have a fair vocabulary of swearing themselves. There's one that's even got me baffled!

[balto]

Re balto's post: Well, yes. I don't actually live in Wick, thus it couldn't be directed at me, so I thought it would be wise to let the wider population know of the opinion this gentleman (who sought to contribute to our org community) actually thought of the place.
That's assuming he's a real person, which I'm convinced he's not. I could remove it (indeed the mods possibly will anyway) if you think it could cause serious offence, however we all know none of it is true.
And anyone who can figure out what the words are must have a fair vocabulary of swearing themselves. There's one that's even got me baffled!
i can only guess myself what the blanks are, but i still dont think it should of been made public, its just looking for trouble.

[Venture]

do you really think that was called for, it isnt called a private message for nothing, seems to me you are just wanting to stir things up.

So what are your thoughts on Gene Hunt then balto. Did you think he was genuine in all that he posted?

[balto]

So what are your thoughts on Gene Hunt then balto. Did you think he was genuine in all that he posted?
he will be a genuine as any of us on here, im sorry but i think that any one of us that really cared for our familys would have done exactly the same as what he did. at the end of the day we are all brave enough behind the computer screen but would we all have the courage to say this stuff to someones face.

[Tubthumper]

he will be a genuine as any of us on here, im sorry but i think that any one of us that really cared for our familys would have done exactly the same as what he did. at the end of the day we are all brave enough behind the computer screen but would we all have the courage to say this stuff to someones face.
I think the term is 'What he SAYS he did...'

[balto]

I think the term is 'What he SAYS he did...'
im stepping back as this liitle witch hunt you have going is going to get out of hand.

[Tubthumper]

I'll step back as well. It ain't a witch-hunt. And all the attention is probably giving him (or her!) a warm feeling.

[crayola]

All this talk of percy prompted me to look for him elsewhere on the web.

As you might expect he has plenty to say about recent events. I don't necessarily agree with him but his thoughts are worth a read.

Flour of Scotland... (http://grimacing.wordpress.com/2009/08/23/flour-of-scotland/)

[Gizmo]

he will be a genuine as any of us on here, im sorry but i think that any one of us that really cared for our familys would have done exactly the same as what he did. at the end of the day we are all brave enough behind the computer screen but would we all have the courage to say this stuff to someones face.

Exactly, the man behind the username Gene Hunt, is...in my opinion 100% justified in confronting the Orger who racially insulted his family, I would have done exactly the same, and you can be asured...i would NOT have been so restrained in such a confrontation, 99% of things said on the internet don't justify a face to face confrontation, but that other 1% of the time, things get pushed too far, and quite honestly, there are some around here who just bring out the worst in people, some of us live in a different world to a lot of you, and if any of those comments about Gene's family had been made to his face he would have been quite within his rights to knock seven shades out of that person. I never say anything online that i'm not prepared to say face to face, regardless of the consequences.
This "Community" is full of spineless back stabbing crawlers who hide behind their username and act like a pack of rabid wolves at times, you all need to get a life.

[Thumper]

Its a sad day when you cannot come on here without fear of being attacked :( I am not saying who is and isnt right in this debacle all i am saying is that if we have to live in fear of threatening or insulting pms because of something we say then I for one wont be using the org!It time everyone took a step back, calmed down and think before they post!It gets very tiresome when people fall out and then do silly things like having to point out spelling and punctuation mistakes just to get a pop in,as for racists well they have no right to be on a public forum if they cannot resepct others feelings and choices!Time for everyone to sit back and think about things for a while I think! x

[Margaret M.]

What a horrible, immature, little man.

Which one? :lol:

[Moderator]

As predicted some posts have been removed from this thread and the thread locked.