View Full Version : American National Health Service?
I see President Obama is pushing for a NHS-style health service. Opponents in the USA have been fairly critical by referring to our NHS in a bad light. This debate has made me think of our system in a few ways.
Can our system be improved?
Should we go for private medical insurance funded system?
Are the american critics being fair on our system and ignoring some pretty important benefits?
Stephen Hawking has been used as an example of its failure yet he has come out fighting to defend the NHS.
Are we paying too much for the NHS?
Frankly, I am strongly in favor of the NHS as my life would have been greatly different without it.
What does the NHS mean to you? I think it more than a health service, I think it binds Britain spiritually as well. I think that is one difference with the US, they pay for themselves individually mostly and that reflects in their attitudes with life in general.
I think Obama's presidency will be historically judged if he gets what he wants otherwise he could end up looking like a lame duck in his first year.
I think the nhs is good thing especially for people that cant afford medical insurances or for other reasons i dont mind paying a we bit more into nhs if i thought it would improve it the only problem i have is the money getting spent wisely.
The thing i didnt relise the other the day was if ure holding a donar card like me i didnt relise that if u die some of ure parts inside could go to private hospital were someone is paying for the operation so in effect someone has bought ure parts i think thats wrong because there is a big difference between donating and selling
The current debate as presented by the BBC and others is absurd. There is a whole host of possibilities that lie between the American system and the monolithic state-controlled NHS. I wish I knew more about them.
Do we have any French, German, Canadian, Italian ..... orgers who can enlighten us?
My father was a surgeon in both the UK and Canada. The biggest problem he had was the level of cleanliness in the old UK hospitals.
From my own perspective there are some things that are covered in the UK that aren't universal in Canada. Dental care especially orthodontic care would normally be covered by private insurance in Canada. Fortunately many people can get this relatively affordable through their employer.
The biggest problems I see with the NHS are what appear to be a very high level of bureaucracy and my biggest pet peeve which is the post code lottery for many treatments.
tonkatojo
18-Aug-09, 23:41
I see President Obama is pushing for a NHS-style health service. Opponents in the USA have been fairly critical by referring to our NHS in a bad light. This debate has made me think of our system in a few ways.
Can our system be improved?
Should we go for private medical insurance funded system?
Are the american critics being fair on our system and ignoring some pretty important benefits?
Stephen Hawking has been used as an example of its failure yet he has come out fighting to defend the NHS.
Are we paying too much for the NHS?
Frankly, I am strongly in favor of the NHS as my life would have been greatly different without it.
What does the NHS mean to you? I think it more than a health service, I think it binds Britain spiritually as well. I think that is one difference with the US, they pay for themselves individually mostly and that reflects in their attitudes with life in general.
I think Obama's presidency will be historically judged if he gets what he wants otherwise he could end up looking like a lame duck in his first year.
Did I not read him saying he didn't want it based on any other country he wanted an American designed health service.
Totally agree with being in favour, I too owe the NHS a ruddy big thanks.
The NHS services are vast and varied, but what would you or any one else like to cull ?. Personally I would ban all private health insurance if I could, the principal is obscene that anyone can buy a better operation or a quicker one just because they can afford it, often using NHS hospital beds and staff/consultants jumping queues by being seen first because they can pay. But that's my view and I wouldn't want to start a war with them.
its not been asked for but id i may give an americans view of the NHS after living the first 22 years of my life with the american system and NOT coming from a wealthy family able to afford private health insurance which can easily cost upwards a 1000 dollars a month for a family of 4.
the cons of the american system in my experiance.
you can not get a doctors app. at all unless you are able to pay the consultation fee up front, which when i left in 1999 and my GP's was 65 dollars. that was just for the consultation. then any tests on top of that were added on, and of course meds are insane prices. usually between 10-20 dollars per item for generic and up into the hundreds for named meds. i was quite lucky as i had private health care thru my work, which actually cost more than what i pay now for the nhs, and it covered about 60 percent of my medical costs if it fell within the lines of the insurance. my cousin had a baby about 5 years ago and it cost her $3000.00 to go into the hospital pop the baby out and go home the next day.
just recently my cousin Tammy had a very horrible find.
a mole that her husband had been concerned over for a few years was getting bigger on her back. finally after 2 years his insurance would cover her going to the doctor to have it looked at. it turned out that it was malignant, and she has gone thru so very much in the past year trying to see if it was to late to stop the damage or if they had gotten to it in time.
he has to work two jobs just to keep the family afloat with the basics like food, electricity ect.. yet they are not eligible for any gov. help with medical bills. in 1996 a 5 min abulance ride cost 500 dollars as my grandmother found out after suffering a heart attack, a week of icu later and a pace maker her hospital bill was in the range of 70,000 dollars. which thanks to my grandfather being a war veteran and her his widow she was lucky enough to get help.
my aunt debbie who is a diabetic has had to quit taking her medicine because they can no longer afford the prescriptions. it really upset me as we take the same thing which is metaphormine and mine is basically free and she can not afford hers.
my own mother who is dying is living on her own in a tiny mobile home because she can not afford anything more, even with disabilty and medicare. after nearly dying on the hospital floor and being resuscitated she was only in icu for 24 hours, before being moved to the normal ward, then within hours being discharged from the hospital and put into rehabilitate care. the care home she was placed in is only covered for 20 days then she was sent home, with a broken hip, unable to walk, still extremely ill. within a week she had collapsed and was back in the icu just to repeat the same thing.
to the majority of dr. and nurses in the US you are just a number. not a living breathing soul.
you are pushed thru the door as fast as you can be. it was just on the news a few months ago about a woman dying on the floor of an emergency room while waiting to be seen. she had called out for help several times before slumping down and convulsing on the floor and dying. this was seen by several staff and patients. it was recorded by cctv and made national headlines.
hospital waiting lines are not even in hours anymore but days. if you do not have a really good private medical insurance then you are put to the back of the line or even turned away.
a private hospital does not even have to see you if you do not have insurance.
you could be laying bleeding to death on their door and if you do not have insurance they can tell you to go to a public hospital.
ahemm now onto the NHS:
i know that ive only been here for 10 years, and that i live in the far north where it is not so very populated.
but the service has been nothing but stellar!
the drs, nurses, midwives, surgeons, and every other medical staff i have ever met have been wonderful. when my children were sick i was able to get an app. that day. i have never waited for hours in a waiting room to see a dr.
when ive gone into hospital, everything has happened quickly smoothly and professionaly.
all in all the NHS is miles above the American system and a huge thank you for all the peeps working their bums off every day to help us!
George Brims
19-Aug-09, 08:45
I'm from Caithness but live in California. Unfortunately I think President Obama and his party have made a hash of this business. They didn't get on top of the utterly ridiculous propaganda effort waged by the medical insurance companies and nip it in the bud right at the start. Loons like Sara Palin were running around saying the proposed plan would have "death panels" deciding whether an old person or her Down Syndrome child should be saved. You can imagine how that panicked many older voters. An outright lie of course.
Now it looks like the "public option" (a government-run alternative to private health insurance) will be hard to push through, although some effective pushback has started against the nutters who have been turning up at Congress members town hall meetings and disrupting them, and calling Obama both a Nazi and a Socialist. A fine example of how to deal with a heckler is to be found here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/19/barney-frank-confronts-wo_n_262682.html
By the way I regard the NHS as a national treasure. An interesting article a few days ago in the US pointed out that although Labour introduced it, Winston Churchill had also been in favour of setting it up, but had been voted out of office before he could make it a reality. Winnie spent a lot of effort after that trying ot regain at least some of the credit for its creation.
By the way I regard the NHS as a national treasure. An interesting article a few days ago in the US pointed out that although Labour introduced it, Winston Churchill had also been in favour of setting it up, but had been voted out of office before he could make it a reality. Winnie spent a lot of effort after that trying ot regain at least some of the credit for its creation.
Well done George, straight from the hip, the story from the other side of the pond
Like George, I regard the NHS as a national treasure - my American husband and I both do. We'd be only too delighted if they had something similar over here in the USA! The American medical insurance companies are indeed behind all this ridiculous propaganda, because they stand to lose too much money if President Obama's plans come into fruition. I'm tired of the doom and gloom propaganda ads on TV here, that unfortunately seem to be brainwashing some people in this country. I like Barney Frank's response to one such woman - "On what planet do you spend most of your time?" Exactly!! Wake up America!!! President Obama's got the right idea! He's not the one with Nazi policies - it's the darned medical insurance companies! They have too much
control over what a doctor can and cannot do in this country - over what they'll pay for, and what they won't! Like President Obama says, health care has become too much of a profit making business over here - and it's high time it stopped!!!
I must say that as another that has lived in both countries the NHS is my preferred system. In the US if you don't have insurance or alot of money you won't be seen.
I know that my uncle had a heart attack in the US and still needed to pay around £20K once he got out of hospital and he had good insurance. He had to sell stock that he was saving for his retirement to pay for it.
Insurance in the US can be very complicated; there are so many kinds, major medical, preventative, co-pays, etc. and most are tied into your employers. If you change employers and say your partner has asthma, your partner will not be covered under a new policy because its a pre-existing conditions (this will even extend to children).
This is why alot of people can't change jobs and now with the credit crunch many will have lost their jobs and their insurance.
An NHS system would actually benefit Americans.
most def. bookworm.
the medical system in America is so bad at the moment that it cant get much further down before it hits rock bottom.
another thing i personally like about the NHS and the Doctors here is the aversion to hand out pain killers and the like. the drs in America tend to hand them out like candy.
sometimes i think there are more people addicted to prescription drugs than street drugs.
redeyedtreefrog
19-Aug-09, 20:19
Apparently America is the only developed nation which doesnt have "free" healthcare for the poor
Can our system be improved?
Yes, the NHS can be improved if there is more money, more resources which includes increased staffing levels.
Should we go for private medical insurance funded system?
Private insurance funded system is based on profit making system. The companies which are running these see it and use it as making more money. In this system people could be over-investigated or at times could be over-treated.Likewise if they dont have adequate cover they will be definately under-investigated and under-treated
Are the american critics being fair on our system and ignoring some pretty important benefits?
The American critics are not fair on our system because the critics are bias working with the private healthcare companies.
Hawking has been used as an example of its failure yet he has come out fighting to defend the NHS.
No one can comment on this as no one knows his detailed medical history.
Are we paying too much for the NHS?
We are not paying too much for the NHS slightly more would provide more funding for the NHS.
The greatest thing about our NHS is that it is free to all at the point of entry rich or poor.
Whitewater
19-Aug-09, 22:56
Must thank Brandy and all our American friends for giving us the facts. It is something I have known about for years as my wife has many cousins in America, several have lost their retirement savings attempting to pay for medical care, many are still working hard in their 70s just to pay for hospital treatment.
Yes, we all gurn at the NHS some time or another, but at the end of the day we are all thankful for it. I have been on several occasions and I guess all of us have been at one time or another.
Sorry Brandy, tried to give you a good rep for your post, but I was told to spread it around a bit.
This bilateral discussion is following partisan lines similar to the ones in the US and the UK media. The US and UK systems are not the only ones, most other developed countries have systems which sort of lie between these two. I know very little about these systems but I have experienced one or two first hand. Anyway, here are a couple of articles I googled quickly.
Europe's major health systems and how they work (http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUSTRE57I2JQ20090819) (from Reuters)
Study shows Austria has the best health care system in Europe in 2007 (http://www.wieninternational.at/en/node/5166)
The second contains this diagram
http://www.wieninternational.at/files/artikel5166/12-block020.jpg
Britain lies at the bottom of the pile. :(
Can anyone with detailed knowledge or experience of other European systems comment on them?
Thanks to Tristan for his bit on comparing Canada with the UK.
Aaldtimer
20-Aug-09, 03:04
That diagram is utterly meaningless without any parameters.:confused
That diagram is utterly meaningless without any parameters.:confused
I know, but a girl sometimes has to resort to desperately provocative measures to try to drag people screaming out of their US/UK ruts. :lol:
tonkatojo
20-Aug-09, 12:05
Yes, the NHS can be improved if there is more money, more resources which includes increased staffing levels.
Private insurance funded system is based on profit making system. The companies which are running these see it and use it as making more money. In this system people could be over-investigated or at times could be over-treated.Likewise if they dont have adequate cover they will be definately under-investigated and under-treated
The American critics are not fair on our system because the critics are bias working with the private healthcare companies.
No one can comment on this as no one knows his detailed medical history.
We are not paying too much for the NHS slightly more would provide more funding for the NHS.
The greatest thing about our NHS is that it is free to all at the point of entry rich or poor.
That is the voice of reason and I agree.
What is your view on my thoughts that Private Health should be outlawed or banned in this country (UK).
Do you think it would cause to many problems with consultants, surgeons or hospital managers nice little earners, organising these queue jumping by paying "private" taking up NHS resources beds ETC, just because they have the cash or luck to have inherited money, while the rest of us have to get in the queue and wait.
I believe the way they do it is pay for a "private" consultation then get well ahead on the NHS waiting list as the rest of us get put further down the queue to see the same consultant when he has time to see us.
A bit of a rant but I genuinely would like your opinion.
bettedaviseyes
20-Aug-09, 13:13
HAS ANYONE WATCHED "SICKO" IT SHOCKED ME HERE'S A SUMMARY BLOW....
In this documentary, the director/writer Michael Moore exposes the dysfunctional North American health care system, oriented to huge profits and not for their mission of saving lives. Further, he shows the corruption in the political system, with members of government and congress "bought" by the corporations and the situation of the average American citizens, including those that volunteered to work in the rescue mission of the September 11th. Then he travels to Canada, Great Britain and France to compare their systems showing their hospital, doctors, staffs and patients. Last but not the least, he shows that the prisoners in Guantanamo have better medical treatment than the common people in USA, and he ends getting free treatment to the Americans that participate along the documentary in Cuba.
pinotnoir
20-Aug-09, 13:23
What you are referring to is called "queue-jump" within the NHS and is universally frowned upon by all NHS workers and is not practiced as far as I am aware.
Outlawing or banning private healthcare isn't democratic, improving the already high standard of the NHS to a level where using private healthcare would be pointless would be an admirable policy for any of our political parties (similarly, improving state education to an equally high standard would be an admirable objective- of the present mainstream parties only The Labour Party has within it's membership such socialist thinkers).
buddyrich
20-Aug-09, 14:04
I think if you can pay for it then go ahead, use a private company that doesnt use NHS resources. It frees up resources for those of us who arent lucky enough to have the wealth to put on treatment.
Surely if someone pays a private firm to treat them, it's not queue-jumping, rather it's one less person in the queue.
tonkatojo
20-Aug-09, 14:28
I think if you can pay for it then go ahead, use a private company that doesnt use NHS resources. It frees up resources for those of us who arent lucky enough to have the wealth to put on treatment.
Surely if someone pays a private firm to treat them, it's not queue-jumping, rather it's one less person in the queue.
The problem being those private hospitals use Ex NHS staff lured away with higher wages, then the NHS has to pay agency staff on much higher rates again to cover, Also they use the same consultants/ surgeons that more often than not are employed in the NHS. Also the ethics of training comes into it, How many training hospitals are there in the private sector ?.
My debate is if these private insurance based facilities did not exist the queue jumping wouldn't be an issue, it would be a clinical need system.
Gene Hunt
20-Aug-09, 14:57
The problem being those private hospitals use Ex NHS staff lured away with higher wages, then the NHS has to pay agency staff on much higher rates again to cover, Also they use the same consultants/ surgeons that more often than not are employed in the NHS. Also the ethics of training comes into it, How many training hospitals are there in the private sector ?.
My debate is if these private insurance based facilities did not exist the queue jumping wouldn't be an issue, it would be a clinical need system.
Not sure there.
My wife worked in the NHS until July, She left and went to work for a private company. She certainly didnt do it for the higher wage as she is only making a smidge more than she did in the NHS. She left due to the constant changes in policy, directives and general bull being rained down on her from above from the ever expanding number of Managers, Administrators and people financing job creation. She left because she wants to treat patients and felt that she was being pulled away from it and drowning in Goverment produced bumf.
I had testicular cancer not that long ago and went private at one point, in my view the NHS dont take male cancers as seriously as female cancers. My priority was to get treated and make sure my family had me around in a year. I think the NHS is a great idea, unfortunatly it seems to be a constantly hungry money eater that has lost its focus. I got ragged about going private but the simple fact is I pay 40% tax. I pay a higher percentage than some into the pot the NHS is funded from. Yet I dont thnk that this entitles me to priority treatment. I didnt jump any line and someone who couldnt afford private treatment got my place in the line. So I reject any criticism levelled at me that somehow I am depriving anyone else. Not saying that you criticised me directly, just generally as I went private.
oldmarine
20-Aug-09, 15:09
Some interesting comments in this thread. I wish I had all the answers but I don't. So far my retirement insurance (government medicare and private Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Arizona) has paid all of my bills. With the decline of the value of the American dollar due to the flooding in the US of A with worthless paper money which has no backing is bound to have undesirable results. China and the UK holds most of our debt. The interest paid is bound to put us further into debt. I wonder how long our country can last with that kind of financial manuevering? I have read that many Canadians have to wait so long for their appointments that they are coming down to the the states where they can get faster appointments. There again, with our news media I don't know what to believe.
tonkatojo
20-Aug-09, 15:32
Not sure there.
My wife worked in the NHS until July, She left and went to work for a private company. She certainly didnt do it for the higher wage as she is only making a smidge more than she did in the NHS. She left due to the constant changes in policy, directives and general bull being rained down on her from above from the ever expanding number of Managers, Administrators and people financing job creation. She left because she wants to treat patients and felt that she was being pulled away from it and drowning in Goverment produced bumf.
I had testicular cancer not that long ago and went private at one point, in my view the NHS dont take male cancers as seriously as female cancers. My priority was to get treated and make sure my family had me around in a year. I think the NHS is a great idea, unfortunatly it seems to be a constantly hungry money eater that has lost its focus. I got ragged about going private but the simple fact is I pay 40% tax. I pay a higher percentage than some into the pot the NHS is funded from. Yet I dont thnk that this entitles me to priority treatment. I didnt jump any line and someone who couldnt afford private treatment got my place in the line. So I reject any criticism levelled at me that somehow I am depriving anyone else. Not saying that you criticised me directly, just generally as I went private.
So what do you in your wisdom recommend ?.
Good for her (your wife) making a stand on her morals.
Your correct about the focus.
Your also correct regarding bumf, managers an all, it is surely time for the once great NHS to be radically reformed (that's a good government term), by that I mean get back to basics not I want I need types of needs, taking out the vanity cosmetics, ivf (that's a hard decision but look at our population).
You miss my point that the consultants you saw were probably working for the NHS at the same time, and if there was no private hospitals you would have seen him for nowt albeit in the queue or clinical need.
Gene Hunt
20-Aug-09, 16:42
So what do you in your wisdom recommend ?.
Good for her (your wife) making a stand on her morals.
Your correct about the focus.
Your also correct regarding bumf, managers an all, it is surely time for the once great NHS to be radically reformed (that's a good government term), by that I mean get back to basics not I want I need types of needs, taking out the vanity cosmetics, ivf (that's a hard decision but look at our population).
You miss my point that the consultants you saw were probably working for the NHS at the same time, and if there was no private hospitals you would have seen him for nowt albeit in the queue or clinical need.
I dont recommend anything except the NHS being made to perform on a budget that isnt endless. The money needs to be used wisely. Why should Sex Change Ops be on the NHS for instance ??, why should Drug Addicts be supplied Methadone for free while Asthmatics pay for Inhalers ?? .. we need to get back to effective treatments for those who havent inflicted their injuries on themselves as a priority for one.
And the Docs I saw were in a fully private hospital and not an NHS one. They weren't NHS employees. There is no way I would have paid to be treated by someone I would have got for nothing anyway.
tonkatojo
20-Aug-09, 21:08
[QUOTE=Gene Hunt;582887]I dont recommend anything except the NHS being made to perform on a budget that isnt endless. The money needs to be used wisely. Why should Sex Change Ops be on the NHS for instance ??, why should Drug Addicts be supplied Methadone for free while Asthmatics pay for Inhalers ?? .. we need to get back to effective treatments for those who havent inflicted their injuries on themselves as a priority for one.
That's part of my argument, you should include "health Tourists" as well..
If you want some info on the actual proposed bill in America, I suggest you watch the following videos. They make up an interview that took place last night (August 20th) on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart between Jon Stewart (the host of The Daily Show with...) and Betsy McCaughey (one of the loudest, in both senses of the word, opposers to the bill. It makes for interesting watching, not only because it shows the lunacy behind the position of the people against the bill, but also because there is some detailed talk about the bill itself, something you don't hear much on British television because we are apparently more interested in the fact that people are yelling at town hall meetings. Also, if you are just interested in the art of debating, they are worth watching as Jon Stewart is very good at picking apart peoples arguments, and is a lot cleverer than people think because he hosts a "comedy" show.
A quick word about the clips. They are three clips, each around 8 minutes long. Before the second and third clips there is a warning stating that the video may contain adult content or strong language. There is in fact no adult content or strong language. The warning is displayed because these videos have not been edited at all. This is because (and it is explained better at the end of the third clip) it is the final show before the crew of The Daily Show go on holiday and so they did not make the editing crew stay late to cut the 24 minute interview down to the 10 minutes they showed on the broadcast last night. Hence if you saw the programme on Comedy Central last night or will see it on More4 this evening you will see that they just cut the interview off at the end of their allotted time, in the middle of Stewart speaking from what I remember. Finally, I have not pasted the wrong links, it has just been oddly numbered (Part 1, Ext-Part 1, Ext-Part 2).
The links:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-20-2009/betsy-mccaughey-pt--1
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-17-2009/exclusive---betsy-mccaughey-extended-interview-pt--1
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-17-2009/exclusive---betsy-mccaughey-extended-interview-pt--2
That is the voice of reason and I agree.
What is your view on my thoughts that Private Health should be outlawed or banned in this country (UK).
Do you think it would cause to many problems with consultants, surgeons or hospital managers nice little earners, organising these queue jumping by paying "private" taking up NHS resources beds ETC, just because they have the cash or luck to have inherited money, while the rest of us have to get in the queue and wait.
I believe the way they do it is pay for a "private" consultation then get well ahead on the NHS waiting list as the rest of us get put further down the queue to see the same consultant when he has time to see us.
A bit of a rant but I genuinely would like your opinion.
Private Health should not be banned as it is giving a choice to the people.
The people who pay private DO NOT jump the queue in NHS.
They are sometimes seen by NHS consultants in a private facility ( outside their NHS contracted hours ). There are also full time private consultants and doctors working in this country.
Some NHS hospitals have designated private wards for private patients which is a money earning source of the NHS hospital. In other words this money is reinvested into the services of the NHS patients. If you stop this avenue less money will be redistributed in this way.
Again private patients do not jump queues in NHS hospitals. :)
The American free market health care system and the UK publicly funded system both began in a time and era very different from life in the twenty-first century. There will be cracks in both systems just because of the intense pressure placed on them by changing times, changing ways of treating ailments, changing medications and the emergence of new medical issues.
My 'foreign' experience includes a trip to A & E in Germany last year. There I was with a very obvious broken ankle and a very obvious Canadian accent. The focus was on the ankle, no one seemed bothered by the medical coverage for payment. And it didn't change one bit when I produced my NHS card and the EU card that goes with it. I've had my daughter to emergency with sprained ankles (could have been breaks) in Canada and I have had my own experience in Germany and in Scotland where my treatment was carried out. All were exactly the same. Gosh, the medical staff even told the same jokes!
tonkatojo
22-Aug-09, 10:07
Private Health should not be banned as it is giving a choice to the people.
The people who pay private DO NOT jump the queue in NHS.
They are sometimes seen by NHS consultants in a private facility ( outside their NHS contracted hours ). There are also full time private consultants and doctors working in this country.
Some NHS hospitals have designated private wards for private patients which is a money earning source of the NHS hospital. In other words this money is reinvested into the services of the NHS patients. If you stop this avenue less money will be redistributed in this way.
Again private patients do not jump queues in NHS hospitals. :)
I beg to differ, you state they do not jump the queue does paying private to use the same facilities that would be used otherwise to treat those in the queue or leaving beds empty to wait for the elite to pay not count. The "stories" of people paying to see the same consultant that they would otherwise have to wait in the queue thus saving 10-16 weeks waiting time then being that further up the list for the said consultant to eventually treat/operate in the same NHS facilities ?. As one who can not would not pay private I strongly object (to no avail ) to an institution being abused by the more affluent. The money reinvested I suppose that includes scanners that are installed and once again the masses have to take the back seat to footballers and private "patients" who are deemed more important, I don't think so.
I repeat disband private facilities and put the fairness back into the NHS....... Perhaps this debate should be on a fresh thread.
Margaret M.
22-Aug-09, 13:58
an interview that took place last night (August 20th) on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart between Jon Stewart (the host of The Daily Show with...) and Betsy McCaughey (one of the loudest, in both senses of the word, opposers to the bill.
Love Jon Stewart, he really made her look like a ninny. Health care in the United States is wonderful, if one has insurance. Some of the best doctors in the world are here because the compensation attracts them. However, it is a disgrace that everyone does not have access to decent health care.
The right wing talking heads make it sound like Universal Health Care will be the downfall of the country. I am tired of hearing them go on about the horrendous health care system in Britain. They take some isolated incidents and make them sound like the norm. Unfortunately, there are few left wing talk shows to provide the balance needed in this argument.
I beg to differ, you state they do not jump the queue does paying private to use the same facilities that would be used otherwise to treat those in the queue or leaving beds empty to wait for the elite to pay not count. The "stories" of people paying to see the same consultant that they would otherwise have to wait in the queue thus saving 10-16 weeks waiting time then being that further up the list for the said consultant to eventually treat/operate in the same NHS facilities ?. As one who can not would not pay private I strongly object (to no avail ) to an institution being abused by the more affluent. The money reinvested I suppose that includes scanners that are installed and once again the masses have to take the back seat to footballers and private "patients" who are deemed more important, I don't think so.
I repeat disband private facilities and put the fairness back into the NHS....... Perhaps this debate should be on a fresh thread.
You have all the right to differ and I respect your view.
There are certain checks and balances in NHS so 'consultants' do not abuse their position for personal financial gains.
The people who are paying private health insurance are also entitled to NHS treatment ( as the rest of the population )
I put a scenario to you to answer:
A patient seeks a private consultation and a consultant finds a life threatening condition requiring immediate treatment. The consultant knows that this treatment is available on NHS.What advice or course of action should this consultant take?
This is an ethical dilemma where providing that treatment on NHS will not give any financial gain to the consultant. If the consultant offers the same treatment to the patient in a private facility it will cost to patient but consultant will also gain financially.
I beg to differ, you state they do not jump the queue does paying private to use the same facilities that would be used otherwise to treat those in the queue or leaving beds empty to wait for the elite to pay not count. The "stories" of people paying to see the same consultant that they would otherwise have to wait in the queue thus saving 10-16 weeks waiting time then being that further up the list for the said consultant to eventually treat/operate in the same NHS facilities ?. As one who can not would not pay private I strongly object (to no avail ) to an institution being abused by the more affluent. The money reinvested I suppose that includes scanners that are installed and once again the masses have to take the back seat to footballers and private "patients" who are deemed more important, I don't think so.
I repeat disband private facilities and put the fairness back into the NHS....... Perhaps this debate should be on a fresh thread.
Absolutely agree with everything u say,T.
Had afriend[in central belt]...........was nunwell last december.He saw private consultant in private hospital...........immediately admitted to NHS hospital.It was to be a 6 week stay for treatment.........he was shown to a bed in ward with other folk...........stamped his feet saying he would ONLY stay if he got his OWN room!!
Well..it worked ...........he got his own room [ at no charge]..eventually started going home for the night in his own bed.............paid£ 100 per night he spent in hospital[private with BUPA]...........
He then went to a NHS hospital ,in glasgow[ heart op.[........demanded own room once again...he got it.
Had his op.recovered well...........returned to previous hospital........same room as before[ they had kept some of his belongings in there at all times]again stayed some nights,went home at others.
After a few more weeks of this...one day,the bed manager came and said his room was needed for a man from oncology..........he would have to go into main ward.
Well..yet another stamping of his feet......but there was no other choice,so he and his wife decided to go home.
Hstill needed IV antibiotics........in the middle of the night or very early morning,so they just got up at thses times and drove to the hospital.
He is fine now,but because of his BUPA policy really does think he is above the rules of the NHS.there is no private hospital in the area he could have been admitted to with his illness.........
Mthoughts are that even though he was admitted via PRIVATE consultation from PRIVATE hospital...........yes he has paid into the NHS system many times over..........and because he was now in a NHS system,he should be made to obey those rules!!!
By the way,his PRIVATE consultant was then his NHS consultant,ultimately................CRACKERS IMO.:roll:
tonkatojo
22-Aug-09, 22:02
You have all the right to differ and I respect your view.
There are certain checks and balances in NHS so 'consultants' do not abuse their position for personal financial gains.
The people who are paying private health insurance are also entitled to NHS treatment ( as the rest of the population )
I put a scenario to you to answer:
A patient seeks a private consultation and a consultant finds a life threatening condition requiring immediate treatment. The consultant knows that this treatment is available on NHS.What advice or course of action should this consultant take?
This is an ethical dilemma where providing that treatment on NHS will not give any financial gain to the consultant. If the consultant offers the same treatment to the patient in a private facility it will cost to patient but consultant will also gain financially.
My answer to that would be, the said consultant should not be doing both private/NHS work. Having said that, in your system the person should either get in the queue or cough up the cash.
My system would be where the GP would make the recommendation upon clinical need, see the consultant and take it from there, also based on clinical need but not jumping the queue, where non rich/mp/celebrity/royalty are treated equal.
My answer to that would be, the said consultant should not be doing both private/NHS work.
Having said that, in your system the person should either get in the queue or cough up the cash.
My system would be where the GP would make the recommendation upon clinical need, see the consultant and take it from there, also based on clinical need but not jumping the queue, where non rich/mp/celebrity/royalty are treated equal.
Not all NHS consultants are doing private practices. It is only a minority who are doing this.
All emergency refferals from GPs are seen appropriately, some even the same week in NHS. The referral is marked appropriately by the GP. Routine, Soon, Urgent a form of queue jumping as you call it within the NHS.
The queue jumping you are mentioning is mostly for elective work ( not urgent. )
I give you an example :
If somebody needs knee or hip replacement they go on a waiting list in NHS. Some Orthopeadic Consultants do private practice in private hospitals.The patients pay for everything.
They are not operated in NHS by queue jumping.
The Consultants who are doing private practice are experts in their field. The GPs reffer patients to them on their repute and previous results. If you ban these high flyers from private practice there might be a risk of losing them to other countries where private practice is allowed. I am not saying that this is the ideal system but I am emphasising the facts. :)
tonkatojo
23-Aug-09, 10:59
[QUOTE=DOCTOR;583984]Not all NHS consultants are doing private practices. It is only a minority who are doing this.
All emergency refferals from GPs are seen appropriately, some even the same week in NHS. The referral is marked appropriately by the GP. Routine, Soon, Urgent a form of queue jumping as you call it within the NHS.
The queue jumping you are mentioning is mostly for elective work ( not urgent. )
I give you an example :
If somebody needs knee or hip replacement they go on a waiting list in NHS. Some Orthopeadic Consultants do private practice in private hospitals.The patients pay for everything.
This is exactly my point, if there was no private work/hospitals then the consultants/surgeons would be more inclined to devote there time to more NHS work. Also the shortage of staff in NHS hospitals would be no more as the staff that are employed there would be more inclined to take up their vocation where they were probably trained in the first instance. Thus reducing waiting times for the masses not just the favoured in life.
You mentioned communism in a previous post. Well I do not advocate communism at all, the people who have bettered themselves and have the resources should be able and are entitled to spend on what they like, But to abuse the masses in advocating a two tear health system in my humble opinion is morally wrong.
Alice in Blunderland
23-Aug-09, 13:07
This is exactly my point, if there was no private work/hospitals then the consultants/surgeons would be more inclined to devote there time to more NHS work.
As for stopping all private work and the staff will devote their time to the NHS.............
Dubai are currently recruiting Consultants and doctors for thier hospitals paying in excess of £250,000 tax free per year and offering up to £40,000 towards childrens education, free flights home, luxury accommodation and servants while working in the country, mmmmm now let me see it could be a hard choice NHS or something similar to what I described. :confused
the shortage of staff in NHS hospitals would be no more as the staff that are employed there would be more inclined to take up their vocation where they were probably trained in the first instance. Thus reducing waiting times for the masses not just the favoured in life.
If only it were so simple the lack of major funding would be a huge obstacle. There is at this moment within the NHS budget constraints as in almost every other service. :)
Margaret M.
23-Aug-09, 13:55
You mentioned communism in a previous post.
Were it not for the people in the higher tax brackets, the NHS would really be in a sorry state. In the U.S., the top 1% of taxpayers pay more taxes than the bottom 95% added together, I daresay it is similar in Britain. Surely those who have to pay more to support the NHS should be entitled to purchase better healthcare, if they so desire. We need to make sure our highest taxpayers stay healthy -- we need them to be working and paying their taxes!
tonkatojo
23-Aug-09, 14:19
Were it not for the people in the higher tax brackets, the NHS would really be in a sorry state. In the U.S., the top 1% of taxpayers pay more taxes than the bottom 95% added together, I daresay it is similar in Britain. Surely those who have to pay more to support the NHS should be entitled to purchase better healthcare, if they so desire. We need to make sure our highest taxpayers stay healthy -- we need them to be working and paying their taxes!
If that is your opinion that is your opinion. I am entitled to mine.:(
tonkatojo
23-Aug-09, 14:34
[QUOTE=Alice in Blunderland;584090]As for stopping all private work and the staff will devote their time to the NHS.............
Dubai are currently recruiting Consultants and doctors for thier hospitals paying in excess of £250,000 tax free per year and offering up to £40,000 towards childrens education, free flights home, luxury accommodation and servants while working in the country, mmmmm now let me see it could be a hard choice NHS or something similar to what I described. :confused
Perhaps I should have said their working time.
Now Dubai, if the said doctors/consultants think that is the route to take and their conscience allows them to lured by riches and the like, they would not in my opinion have much moral fibre, now if they went to gain more experience that would be different, but I don't think Dubai has teaching hospitals.
This is only my opinion. I don't think it would be a hard choice if I was in that position, which I am not, I am one of the masses and like to think I have a conscience.
This is exactly my point, if there was no private work/hospitals then the consultants/surgeons would be more inclined to devote there time to more NHS work. Also the shortage of staff in NHS hospitals would be no more as the staff that are employed there would be more inclined to take up their vocation where they were probably trained in the first instance. Thus reducing waiting times for the masses not just the favoured in life.
But to abuse the masses in advocating a two tear health system in my humble opinion is morally wrong.
The consultants/surgeons doing private work do it in their own time.They duly adhere to the contracted hours of NHS.If you stop private practice the NHS hospitals cannot force them to come and work extra.This private work they are doing is in their own free time. It will not improve waiting times.
In some NHS trusts in England they introduced initiative lists. This was to reduce waiting time in outpatient clinics,operations and other procedures. These activities took place (or maybe still taking place in some hospitals ) on weekends when outpatient clinic and operating theatres were free.The medical and nursing staff helping out were paid quite a handsome amount.The people were working extra hours outside their contracted hours ( with consent and willingness ) It is regarded as private work for NHS patients. The only difference is that NHS is paying for the extra cost.
No one is abusing the masses. The NHS is a huge organisation set up to cater for everyone. The private health system is in fact reducing some of the burden and removing some patients who can pay from the waiting lists thus helping the masses.:)
tonkatojo
23-Aug-09, 18:40
The consultants/surgeons doing private work do it in their own time.They duly adhere to the contracted hours of NHS.If you stop private practice the NHS hospitals cannot force them to come and work extra.This private work they are doing is in their own free time. It will not improve waiting times.
The NHS is a huge organisation set up to cater for everyone. The private health system is in fact reducing some of the burden and removing some patients who can pay from the waiting lists thus helping the masses.:)
And thus creating the two tier system.
And thus creating the two tier system.
You'll get that in everything from 1st class travel to healthcare. Why should I have to put up with the non-paying scum-like riff-raff?:lol:
And thus creating the two tier system.
Yes, I am afraid two tier system as in other walks of life.
The first and economy classes in airlines, trains, different star hotels, the choices in food, clothing etc. The list goes on.
If the Government and politicians decide to change the system( abolishing private practice ) and invest a lot more money into NHS (after getting referendum by the people), I will respect the majority's decision (even if it differs from mine). This is acceptance in democratic society. :)
tonkatojo
23-Aug-09, 19:17
Yes, I am afraid two tier system as in other walks of life.
The first and economy classes in airlines, trains, different star hotels, the choices in food, clothing etc. The list goes on.
If the Government and politicians decide to change the system( abolishing private practice ) and invest a lot more money into NHS (after getting referendum by the people), I will respect the majority's decision (even if it differs from mine). This is acceptance in democratic society. :)
Yes but my point is with health every one should be the same, as for first and second services in other aspects of life I can live with that, or as you stated "communism" would have to prevail.
"And the likes of Rheghead would have to lump it. ;)"
There is obviously some protracted debate between two or three of you, but I'm too lazy to read it so I'm just going to start with my own question.
Can someone explain why Obama has tabled a bill to provide health insurance for 50 million uninsured Americans, and it is these uninsured Americans who hate this idea?
tonkatojo
23-Aug-09, 19:37
There is obviously some protracted debate between two or three of you, but I'm too lazy to read it so I'm just going to start with my own question.
Can someone explain why Obama has tabled a bill to provide health insurance for 50 million uninsured Americans, and it is these uninsured Americans who hate this idea?
I am also to lazy to research what you want. Good luck. [disgust]
Yes but my point is with health every one should be the same, as for first and second services in other aspects of life I can live with that, or as you stated "communism" would have to prevail.
"And the likes of Rheghead would have to lump it. ;)"
Everyone is same in health system of NHS at present. :)
The private healthcare is for ones who pay for it. If you stop this avenue then you are taking freedom of choice away ( from the people who have money ). This is not fair and against their rights. In NHS everyone is treated on their health needs. In NHS they don't ask about your resources before giving you the treatment.The different stories quoted by different people are probably biased and exaggerated.
Everyone is same in health system of NHS at present. :)
The private healthcare is for ones who pay for it. If you stop this avenue then you are taking freedom of choice away ( from the people who have money ).
And.....you might agree that it is 'rich people' who are actually paying more towards the NHS through taxation and cutting waiting lists by going to private healthcare. Seems like a win-win situation for the poor?
It would be an opt-out system that would cripple the NHS.
tonkatojo
24-Aug-09, 08:44
Everyone is same in health system of NHS at present. :)
The private healthcare is for ones who pay for it. If you stop this avenue then you are taking freedom of choice away ( from the people who have money ). This is not fair and against their rights. In NHS everyone is treated on their health needs. In NHS they don't ask about your resources before giving you the treatment.The different stories quoted by different people are probably biased and exaggerated.
What stories are these, so we can all be informed ?.
tonkatojo
24-Aug-09, 08:51
And.....you might agree that it is 'rich people' who are actually paying more towards the NHS through taxation and cutting waiting lists by going to private healthcare. Seems like a win-win situation for the poor?
It would be an opt-out system that would cripple the NHS.
No, once again, the basic need for health care in our civilised country should not be based on wealth, but on clinical need, the idea that because you are more well off than others who can buy a better/quicker service is in my eyes morally wrong.
But if that's what you are that's what you are.
It looks like Obama got the health reform that he was after, well done him.
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