View Full Version : german engineering :)
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090720/video/vwl-259-cars-in-mass-pile-up-on-german-m-15af341.html
this is another example of ridiculous propaganda by our Government to turn us all into country of simpletons rolling along at 22mph in electric cars.
discuss :)
Where in the report was our Government mentioned?
Where in the report was our Government mentioned?
I think you're missing the point. The government is persistently offering ideas about lowering the speed limit, and this will fuel their "SPEED KILLS!!!" idea.
Where in the report was our Government mentioned?
Hear Hear Joxs, Where???????
"SPEED KILLS!!!" idea.
But Speed, does kill, what is your point?
point completely missed,massive pile up no fatals...........where as in this country they suggest electric cars and lower speed limits to reduce deaths..............
not forgetting the speed limit on that stretch of road is not limited :)
How could I miss what wasn't there?
look at the thread title also click the link + read what i wrote,then you will see my point,all you did was ask a stupid question about our government and how it was not mentioned in a pile up in germany...well duh[lol] hence why i wrote what i wrote about our government?comprende?
Kevin Milkins
21-Jul-09, 23:49
There is far to much rushing about going on anyway and I would be delighted to travel at 20 mile an hour as long as everyone else did the same.
I suppose that crash will help with the Germans initiative to recycle cars to boost the economy.
look at the thread title also click the link + read what i wrote,then you will see my point,all you did was ask a stupid question about our government and how it was not mentioned in a pile up in germany...well duh[lol] hence why i wrote what i wrote about our government?comprende?
I read the thread title and watched the video, where exactly does it say that a car crash on foreign soil is influencing Government policy in this country? Has the Minister for Transport spoken to you personally and said action will be taken in this country because of what happened in Germany? You are making suppositions. All you did was start a stupid thread.
I read the thread title and watched the video, where exactly does it say that a car crash on foreign soil is influencing Government policy in this country? Has the Minister for Transport spoken to you personally and said action will be taken in this country because of what happened in Germany? You are making suppositions. All you did was start a stupid thread.
i never said the government was influenced by this crash! but should be!!
But Speed, does kill, what is your point?
Motorways account for 15% of the nations traffic yet only 3% of the nations traffic related accidents. It is not speed that kills, it is bad driving - which includes going at speeds greater than the speed limit at inappropriate place. I'm not condoning speeding, but for example. Do you know the road from Reiss to Keiss where there is the long straight for about a mile or two? Well going 75mph there is wrong and illegal, but not really any more dangerous than going along at 60mph.
What we need to teach people is to drive at the speed limit not 40mph. The number of people who I have been following who go 40mph from somewhere like Thurso to Wick and stay at 40mph even when they enter a 30mph. This is not bloody safe driving - on a busy road this is just going to get people impatient and they then start taking risks.
And to everyone who seems to be acting stupid. The government is obsessed with the idea that "speed kills", and on a road with no speed limit there is a 269 car pile up. Hence this becomes fodder for the "speed kills" plonkers. They can now say: "Ohhhh. Road. No speed limit. Crash. I wonder what caused it?!"
Metalattakk
22-Jul-09, 03:11
Surely if a lesser speed was involved, fewer cars would have been involved, and fewer people would have been injured?
It's not a fair and correct assessment to say that 'Speed Doesn't Kill' on the back of this one incident.
They can now say: "Ohhhh. Road. No speed limit. Crash. I wonder what caused it?!"
The German spokesman said that the incident was most likely caused by rain and excessive speed.
Surely if a lesser speed was involved, fewer cars would have been involved, and fewer people would have been injured?
It's not a fair and correct assessment to say that 'Speed Doesn't Kill' on the back of this one incident.
The German spokesman said that the incident was most likely caused by rain and excessive speed.
I am not trying to say that Speed Doesn't Kill, and in the reverse it is not fair to say that it does kill because an accident happened on the AutoBahn.
alan i agree,unfortunately on this forum there is that few that like to think wot they say goes and thats that,to be honest all these cars in the pile up would have been doing a lesser speed as they would have seen cars already stationary crashed,did the lesser speed help them?259cars!!
Metalattakk
22-Jul-09, 04:01
I am not trying to say that Speed Doesn't Kill, and in the reverse it is not fair to say that it does kill because an accident happened on the AutoBahn.
Nobody is actually saying that, though.
Speed doesn't kill - it is that sudden stop at the end.
I think I am missing the point here.
The government on this country has imposed a national speed limit of 70 mph on motorways. However, on the A2 in Germany where the accident happened there is no speed limit, which means cars could have traveled at 140 mph or faster. Nobody got killed.
If anything the video should lead us to the conclusion that Germany needs a national speed limit, not that the UK government needs to act.
However, my personal opinion is that I prefer the German system. I've grown up and learned to drive in Germany, and drove there for 15 years. When I first came to the UK I felt that everybody was going at snail pace and was often frustrated with the inability of UK drivers to act and react.
German drivers seem to concentrate more, don't block the overtaking lane and also have less accidents.
And for everybody who ever contemplates to drive overseas: remember that if a car flashes you from the back on the motorway they are warning that they are coming at high speed, so move out the way. In no way are they offering to let you go first...
Here is an interesting link about "speed kills", it conclude that it in fact doesn't.
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/international3.html
northener
22-Jul-09, 16:08
Stefan is correct in his asessment of driving standards and speed in Germany. The drivers are more aware of their surroundings and the fact that they could have a car bearing down on them at high speed at any time. Unfortunately, this system could not be introduced on Britains motorways due to the apallingly poor standard of driving by the average British driver whilst on M-ways.
Regarding the crash: The reason people crash into each other in situations like this is that they are travelling too close for the speed they are doing - or too fast for the available space and conditions around them.
Work that one out - you'll get the same conclusion either way. Speed and conditions.
Rain doesn't cause crashes, cars don't cause crashes and available space doesn't cause crashes. It's driver error, pure and simple.
And the error? Excessive speed for the road and conditions.
Statistically, M-ways are the safest areas on our road network. But when it goes wrong, the results are normally catastrophic...and fatal in many cases.
The Oracle
22-Jul-09, 16:36
Stefan is correct in his asessment of driving standards and speed in Germany. The drivers are more aware of their surroundings and the fact that they could have a car bearing down on them at high speed at any time. Unfortunately, this system could not be introduced on Britains motorways due to the apallingly poor standard of driving by the average British driver whilst on M-ways.
Regarding the crash: The reason people crash into each other in situations like this is that they are travelling too close for the speed they are doing - or too fast for the available space and conditions around them.
Work that one out - you'll get the same conclusion either way. Speed and conditions.
Rain doesn't cause crashes, cars don't cause crashes and available space doesn't cause crashes. It's driver error, pure and simple.
And the error? Excessive speed for the road and conditions.
Statistically, M-ways are the safest areas on our road network. But when it goes wrong, the results are normally catastrophic...and fatal in many cases.
Sorry I'm confused !
You agreed that the German drivers have higher standards, are more aware of their surroundings, etc. and have fewer accidents ....... but in this case 259 clearly didn't?
..and I doubt that they are the only 259 in Germany.
Do you know the road from Reiss to Keiss where there is the long straight for about a mile or two? Well going 75mph there is wrong and illegal, but not really any more dangerous than going along at 60mph.
Speed Kills and that is a fact. The faster cars are driven the longer it takes to stop.
Just imagine you are driving along this very same road from Reiss to Keiss at 75 MPH and a Child runs out in the road and stops in front of you to pick up a dropped toy, say about 100 yards or 300 feet away.
You Break hard and what happens. You hit the Child and and very likely Kill Him/Her.
If you had been doing the speed limit of 60 MPH or less then you would break Hard and you should stop in time.
Too many people have been killed by drivers speeding, including the drivers themselves.
Have a look at the chart below to see just how long it takes to stop a speeding car. In this chart it states that it takes 433 feet to stop a car at 75 MPH. Personally I think it would take longer as they are allowing only just over 1 second in thinking and reaction time, in my opinion it would be closer to 2 to 3 seconds for most drivers which could add at least another 100 feet to the overall stopping distance.
So to say it is not dangerous to drive down a road like the one between Reiss and Keiss at 75 MPH is just Silly.
http://i32.tinypic.com/21bj8tv.jpg
northener
22-Jul-09, 17:25
Sorry I'm confused !
You agreed that the German drivers have higher standards, are more aware of their surroundings, etc. and have fewer accidents ....... but in this case 259 clearly didn't?
..and I doubt that they are the only 259 in Germany.
Generally speaking they are more competent and aware drivers, ask anyone who's spent time on the Autobahns.
That does not mean they are infallable, stupid people exist in every country...obviously 259 of them were travelling to a Stupid Convention at the same time.:Razz
Generally speaking they are more competent and aware drivers, ask anyone who's spent time on the Autobahns.
That does not mean they are infallible, stupid people exist in every country...obviously 259 of them were traveling to a Stupid Convention at the same time.:Razz
Totally agree. There are stupid drivers in Germany the same as in every country, but over all they react faster and drive safer.
UK is decades behind in road safety and teaching drivers. 2 decades ago I was taught during driving lessons the cross over technique (letting go with one hand of the steering wheel to grab it the other side). I was also taught that the car will go wherever you look, so you need to look to a certain side of the road at the road marking to keep the car stable in sharp corners.
Last year our OH's son was taught to always keep both hands on the steering wheel and feed the steering wheel through his hands. My granddad was taught that way in Germany in the 40's and it was shortly after abolished as it was deemed unsafe. My OH's son was also taught to keep his eyes in the middle of the road at all times.
He had plenty of near misses in 6 month and I refuse to go in the car with him.
I could never be a driving instructor in this country, knowing that I teach people unsafe methods to drive a car.
Back to the accident: there have been many pile ups in Germany over the years, I would guess usually with 30-80 cars, due to the fact that it is near impossible to stop your car once several cars are involved in a crash in front of you. However, due to the generally very good ability to react and control a car more often than not hardly anybody is injured.
Of course there are fatal accidents in Germany, no doubt, but statistics show that it has nothing to do with speed on Motorways.
Speed on B roads however, are crucial and the restriction in Germany is usually 100 km/h which is approx the same as the British 60 mph. For my liking that can often be too fast. Unlike on motorways there can be bikes and pedestrians.
In Germany many roads are limited to 80 km/h (50mph), inner city traffic is limited to 50 km/h (30mph) with built up areas often restricted to 30 km/h (18mph).
I still believe that most British non motorway traffic travels too fast and that is why this Government tells us that "speed kills".
Yes it does, so make the built up area speed limit 20mph, NOT just in front of schools.
BTW the last city I lived in in Germany had a speed limit in front of schools of 20 km/h. That equals 12mph !!! (I presume that is the same all over Germany but not sure.)
Speed Kills and that is a fact. The faster cars are driven the longer it takes to stop.
Just imagine you are driving along this very same road from Reiss to Keiss at 75 MPH and a Child runs out in the road and stops in front of you to pick up a dropped toy, say about 100 yards or 300 feet away.
You Break hard and what happens. You hit the Child and and very likely Kill Him/Her.
If you had been doing the speed limit of 60 MPH or less then you would break Hard and you should stop in time.
Too many people have been killed by drivers speeding, including the drivers themselves.
Have a look at the chart below to see just how long it takes to stop a speeding car. In this chart it states that it takes 433 feet to stop a car at 75 MPH. Personally I think it would take longer as they are allowing only just over 1 second in thinking and reaction time, in my opinion it would be closer to 2 to 3 seconds for most drivers which could add at least another 100 feet to the overall stopping distance.
So to say it is not dangerous to drive down a road like the one between Reiss and Keiss at 75 MPH is just Silly.
http://i32.tinypic.com/21bj8tv.jpg
The chart is, of course, not completely accurate. For example, I am 17 years old, so if you compare my stopping distance to a normal 77 year old, I would have a quicker reaction time.
Speed Kills and that is a fact.
Motorways account for 15% of the nations traffic, yet only 3% of the nations accidents. Stop saying that that is a fact, it is not. It is your opinion.
George Brims
22-Jul-09, 20:33
Do you know the road from Reiss to Keiss where there is the long straight for about a mile or two? Well going 75mph there is wrong and illegal, but not really any more dangerous than going along at 60mph.
A car at 75 mph carries 56% more kinetic energy than one at 60 mph, so actually it really is more dangerous. Also you have less time to react should for instance a farm animal happen to wander in front of you.
And to everyone who seems to be acting stupid. The government is obsessed with the idea that "speed kills", and on a road with no speed limit there is a 269 car pile up. Hence this becomes fodder for the "speed kills" plonkers. They can now say: "Ohhhh. Road. No speed limit. Crash. I wonder what caused it?!"
What caused it was people driving out of fog into bright sunshine. What caused it to not kill anyone was the fact people were going at moderate speed because of the fog.
...so actually it really is more dangerous.
No. It's not. Example. I shot you with a shotgun from a metre away. You're going to die from this. Instead I shot you with a nuclear bomb from 0.5metres away. The bomb is more dangerous, but dead is dead. It isn't as if I am killing you more so.
Right, let's do some basic calculations. A ford focus ways 1880 kilograms according to Channel4.co.uk/car or some such link. I'll assume it is accurate, I really have no idea what a car should weigh. A car going at 60mph is therefore going to have an Ek of 668444.4 Joules. A car going at 75mph has an Ek of 1044444.4 Joules. 669KJ is, I'd imagine, more than enough to kill someone. So 1044KJ is just overkill.
Anyway, to clarify, I don't think speeding is right, but if someone steps out in front of you at 60mph compared to 75mph, I don't believe that the 15mph makes much difference. And as statistics show (MWs = 15% traffic, 3% accidents) driving fast isn't dangerous in itself.
Aaldtimer
23-Jul-09, 02:58
OK Alan 16, your 17 yrs old, you've passed your driving test, you know it all, speed doesn't kill.
I sincerely hope that you don't join the litany of young drivers who have died over the 30 years I've lived here who were victims of the same delusion.:confused
OK Alan 16, your 17 yrs old, you've passed your driving test, you know it all, speed doesn't kill.
I sincerely hope that you don't join the litany of young drivers who have died over the 30 years I've lived here who were victims of the same delusion.:confused
I have said many times here that I don't condone speeding. I give up with whatever it was I was trying to say.
northener
23-Jul-09, 08:48
Totally agree. There are stupid drivers in Germany the same as in every country, but over all they react faster and drive safer.
Yup, they drive safer because they've had hazard perception and awareness knocked into them from the word go, something that is severely lacking in many drivers over here.
UK is decades behind in road safety and teaching drivers. 2 decades ago I was taught during driving lessons the cross over technique (letting go with one hand of the steering wheel to grab it the other side). I was also taught that the car will go wherever you look, so you need to look to a certain side of the road at the road marking to keep the car stable in sharp corners.
Last year our OH's son was taught to always keep both hands on the steering wheel and feed the steering wheel through his hands. My granddad was taught that way in Germany in the 40's and it was shortly after abolished as it was deemed unsafe. My OH's son was also taught to keep his eyes in the middle of the road at all times.
Hmmm.....regarding steering, these days students are not taught to keep both hands on the wheel at all times, but they are taught that two hands on the wheel will give you more chance of controlling the car should you have to take evasive action.
I quote from 'Roadcraft-The Police Drivers Handbook' (2007 edition):
"This standard hold enables you to turn the wheel immediately in either direction and is a feature of most safe and efficient steering techniques"
and
"Rotational Steering: (which is a variation of what you are talking about, but still involves starting off with hands at a quarter to three on the wheel) in exceptional circumstances, for example, during skidding or very high or low speed manouvres, this technique may be an option."
Note "may be an option" - in other words not standard procedure.
Regarding your lads' instruction to only look at the centre of the road, I find this quite bizarre. I don't know any instructor who would teach something so obviously wrong. However, regardless of who said what, as you say this is totally wrong.
He had plenty of near misses in 6 month and I refuse to go in the car with him.
If he's that bad, I strongly recommend some refresher lessons whether he likes it or not. He's a statistic waiting to happen. I'd hate to hear about the lad in the paper for the wrong reasons.
I could never be a driving instructor in this country, knowing that I teach people unsafe methods to drive a car.
You are mistaken there, my friend. DSA Approved Driving Instructors should be teaching the methods as prescribed by the DSA and using recognised procedures. The DSA sets a basic standard for competency in the test. All the DSA procedures are basically the same as taught by the Police, IAM and RoSPA, albeit some teachings go beyond the scope of novice drivers. All the methods taught can be found in the DSA's 'Driving' handbook and all the rules are taught in accordance with the Highway Code.
northener
23-Jul-09, 08:59
The chart is, of course, not completely accurate. For example, I am 17 years old, so if you compare my stopping distance to a normal 77 year old, I would have a quicker reaction time.
.
Generally speaking, this is a Myth.
Reactions times based on age only play a small part. I can show you plenty of old duffers who would wipe the floor with a younger driver when it came to driving skills and 'reaction' times.
Hazard perception and anticipation are what really count, not some over confident belief in 'reactions'.
If you've had to 'react' it's because you didn't assess the situation properly in the first place.;)
Maybe that's why the statistics for crashes in the sub-25 group are so high? Think about what you have said.........
Surely if a lesser speed was involved, fewer cars would have been involved, and fewer people would have been injured?
It's not a fair and correct assessment to say that 'Speed Doesn't Kill' on the back of this one incident.
The German spokesman said that the incident was most likely caused by rain and excessive speed.
Having lived here for 8 years I think there can be no doubt there was excessive speed ads they don't drive any other way.
Heaven: the policeman is British, the lover is Italian, the cook is French, the engineer is German and it is all organized by the Swiss.
Hell: the policeman is German, the lover is Swiss, the cook is British, the engineer is French and it is all organized by the Italians.
Discuss.
northener
23-Jul-09, 11:19
Heaven: the policeman is British, the lover is Italian, the cook is French, the engineer is German and it is all organized by the Swiss.
Hell: the policeman is German, the lover is Swiss, the cook is British, the engineer is French and it is all organized by the Italians.
Discuss.
:lol: nice one.
Having lived here for 8 years I think there can be no doubt there was excessive speed ads they don't drive any other way.
LOL. True ! As long as its legal and safe to do so....
Generally speaking, this is a Myth.
Reactions times based on age only play a small part. I can show you plenty of old duffers who would wipe the floor with a younger driver when it came to driving skills and 'reaction' times.
This is one of those difficult times when I am forced to decide whether to trust you and your talk of myths, or research undertaken by a joint team of professors from the University of Edinburgh and the University of Glasgow which suggests RTs of 60-70 y.o. are double that of 20-30 y.o.. Sorry Professor Northener, not your lucky day.
Hazard perception and anticipation are what really count, not some over confident belief in 'reactions'.
If you've had to 'react' it's because you didn't assess the situation properly in the first place.;)
Not 100% true as you well. You can be perceptive all you damn well like, but there will be instances where someone does something unexpected or unanticipated. Something you wouldn't be able to perceive.
Maybe that's why the statistics for crashes in the sub-25 group are so high? Think about what you have said.........
I know why the statistics are so high. It is because too many young drivers think they are invincible and drive dangerously. And you can talk about hazard perception, but after all, the generation you are talking on behalf of is talking to a generation which had to sit a hazard perception test to pass there driving test. And please don't insinuate anything about my driving ability. I am a very competent driver - and a hell of a lot more competent than most of these old duffers you talk about.
http://www.psy.ed.ac.uk/people/iand/Der%20%282006%29%20Psychology%20and%20Aging%20reac tion%20time%20age%20hals.pdf
Link to research I mentioned in my above post.
northener
24-Jul-09, 10:29
This is one of those difficult times when I am forced to decide whether to trust you and your talk of myths, or research undertaken by a joint team of professors from the University of Edinburgh and the University of Glasgow which suggests RTs of 60-70 y.o. are double that of 20-30 y.o.. Sorry Professor Northener, not your lucky day.
Rather a dreary and long read, I'm afraid. I'll have to go back to it when I've more time to ensure I've taken in all the points - there could be some useful stuff in there.
You're missing my point, Alan. You were talking about 'reaction times' in relationship to age and implied that you are somehow a better driver because you can 'react' quicker than an older person.
I will say this again - 'reaction' times only play a relatively small part. Awareness, anticipation and planning are what really count.
Not 100% true as you well. You can be perceptive all you damn well like, but there will be instances where someone does something unexpected or unanticipated. Something you wouldn't be able to perceive.
I have not disputed this.
But, as I have stated previously, these instances should be in a very small minority. If not, then you need to carry out some serious self-analysis on why you are getting caught out so often. "I've got good reactions" is cobblers I've heard spouted by some seriously crap drivers. And that's not a personal dig BTW.
I know why the statistics are so high. It is because too many young drivers think they are invincible and drive dangerously.
I will certainly agree with you there Alan, many young drivers have an over-rated opinion of their own skills. Sadly this opinion is not backed up by any real experience on the road over a lengthy period of time.
And you can talk about hazard perception, but after all, the generation you are talking on behalf of is talking to a generation which had to sit a hazard perception test to pass there driving test. And please don't insinuate anything about my driving ability.
I'm sorry Alan, but you have absolutely no idea about the relative merits of the HP test when compared to real life scenarios.
The HP test is nothing more than a very basic tool to ensure that students have a very basic grasp of what they should be looking out for. The field of vision is wrong, the video quality is sub-standard (so that in some cases you will not see distant hazards as you would on the road) and, more importantly, the time frames in which you will score points is (on some clips, not all) seriously flawed.
Flawed to the point that experienced driving professionals have been known to score quite low as they have clicked on the hazards well before the 'window' for scoring opens. And the reverse of this is that people with apallingly low HP skills have breezed the HP exam as they have been shown how to 'play the game'.
I'm sorry, that is not an accurate assessment of anyone's HP skills, it is, at very best, a crude introduction to HP.
Many driver training professionals view the HP test as nothing more than a basic teaching tool of limited use, it means little on the open road as you should be taught HP skills when driving - not on a PC.
I am a very competent driver - and a hell of a lot more competent than most of these old duffers you talk about.
You think you are, if you could back this statement up with a post-test asessment from a driving professional (not some gadgie off the street), then I'll take it as fact and salute you, Sir.
You could try RoSPA, the DIA, IAM to get a professional assessment of your driving skills.
Or, (and this would be much easier) get a local ADI to take you out on an assessment drive. You'd know exactly where you stand then.;)
Until then, your opinion of your driving skills is merely that - your own opinion.
Unfortunately, you fallen fallen into the very trap that leads to a horrendous amount of statistics in the under-25's :
"I've got good reactions, I'm a good driver, it's the other drivers who are to blame".
Your own words in this thread appear to condemn you..........I hope I'm wrong.
If you like reading scientific analysis, you'll find this interesting: http://www.psychology.nottingham.ac.uk/staff/dec/references/Ergonomics%20(1998)%20-%20novice%20drivers.pdf (http://www.psychology.nottingham.ac.uk/staff/dec/references/Ergonomics%20(1998)%20-%20novice%20drivers.pdf)
To summarise, they were looking at scanning techniques (required for good Hazard Perception, yes?). Good scanning will remove many of the 'reaction' scenarios you seem so fond of.
They teamed up a group of 17 year-old post-test drivers and got another group with about 9 years experience and monitored how they scanned various types of road and how much (target) fixation was taking place when assessing potential hazards.
Guess what? The experienced drivers changed their scanning patterns to suit the type of road and conditions and had less problems with target fixation.
The novices, on the other hand, maintained a fairly constant restricted scanning pattern regardless of the changes in environment and could not adapt to different conditions.
Result? It shows experience counts for a lot. None of the 17 year-olds had the experience to assess the situations they were in properly.
But I bet they all thought they were good drivers, Alan.
I will say this again - 'reaction' times only play a relatively small part.
Reaction times vary quite drastically with age, as the study and many others I can find show.
"I've got good reactions" is cobblers I've heard spouted by some seriously crap drivers. And that's not a personal dig BTW.
I've heard similar things from many people my age.
You think you are, if you could back this statement up with a post-test asessment from a driving professional (not some gadgie off the street), then I'll take it as fact and salute you, Sir.
You could try RoSPA, the DIA, IAM to get a professional assessment of your driving skills.
Or, (and this would be much easier) get a local ADI to take you out on an assessment drive. You'd know exactly where you stand then.;)
Until then, your opinion of your driving skills is merely that - your own opinion.
I passed my driving test with only 2 minor faults, and passed the theory test only losing 3 marks out of the 120 odd marks available. Even so, I don't think I'm an amazing driver, but I do think I am competent. I have also driven on many roads, so I feel I'm fairly experienced for my age, especially as many of these local drivers who think they're amazing have only ever driven from Somerfield to the roundabout and back again. And again. And...
Unfortunately, you fallen fallen into the very trap that leads to a horrendous amount of statistics in the under-25's :
"I've got good reactions, I'm a good driver, it's the other drivers who are to blame".
Your own words in this thread appear to condemn you..........I hope I'm wrong.
I think that is a bit of an unfair representation of what I've said. I've said I am competent, and I have good reactions, but my dad has hammered it into me that it is all about anticipation, so I am not under any misconceptions. I know as well as you that one moment of loss of concentration could have disastrous consequences.
No. It's not. Example. I shot you with a shotgun from a metre away. You're going to die from this. Instead I shot you with a nuclear bomb from 0.5metres away. The bomb is more dangerous, but dead is dead. It isn't as if I am killing you more so.
If you shot the nuclear bomb you would kill not only George but everyone in Caithness and beyond. One person speeding (for the conditions of the road and weather) might be involved in one accident. Alot of people speeding (for the conditions of the road and weather), will be involved in alot of accidents. It's a fact. Forget forces, impacts, impedance and all the physics that only serve to blind people with it~s seeming brilliance. Look at the statistics for countries where flouting of speed laws kills people everyday. Speed only does not kill when the operator makes absolutely no mistakes. The operator of a car is human.
If you shot the nuclear bomb you would kill not only George but everyone in Caithness and beyond.
Point missed.
Four Hun dread prang their car techniques.
I'll get my coat...
Four Hun dread prang their car techniques.
I'll get my coat...
Don't bother leaving, we'll let you off with that one. Given the amount of posts to your credit it's obviously difficult to come up with something new. ;)
George Brims
24-Jul-09, 21:19
No. It's not. Example. I shot you with a shotgun from a metre away. You're going to die from this. Instead I shot you with a nuclear bomb from 0.5metres away. The bomb is more dangerous, but dead is dead. It isn't as if I am killing you more so.
Apples vs oranges. A better comparison is I shoot you with a shotgun from 10 feet. You are very likely to die. Or, I shoot you with a shotgun from 50 yards, after the shot have had a lot of chance to slow down. You will survive to swear at me for the pain.
Right, let's do some basic calculations. A ford focus ways 1880 kilograms according to Channel4.co.uk/car or some such link. I'll assume it is accurate, I really have no idea what a car should weigh. A car going at 60mph is therefore going to have an Ek of 668444.4 Joules. A car going at 75mph has an Ek of 1044444.4 Joules. 669KJ is, I'd imagine, more than enough to kill someone. So 1044KJ is just overkill.
Your calculations bear out exactly what I said - the faster car has 56% more kinetic energy. If you don't think that matters, consider where that energy goes in a crash. If you're lucky and all the angles are right, it goes into producing a lot of distortion of the structure of the car (thereby producing a lot of incidental heat and noise). If there's 56% more of that to deal with, there is more chance of the structure deforming enough to crush some part of you, or of some part intruding into you. Now if the angles are wrong, you're in even worse shape, because then that kinetic energy might well go into rolling your car over, greatly increasing your chances of a life-threatening injury.
Anyway, to clarify, I don't think speeding is right, but if someone steps out in front of you at 60mph compared to 75mph, I don't believe that the 15mph makes much difference. And as statistics show (MWs = 15% traffic, 3% accidents) driving fast isn't dangerous in itself.
If you're solely talking about someone stepping in front of you, more speed still means more problems, because it (a) cuts down on your time to react and (b) makes evasive manoeuvres harder. Less people die on motorways because all those fast cars are going in the same direction, isolated from the ones going the other way. Plus they tend to be smoother and have less sharp bends than ordinary roads, and there's less tail-ending because there aren't traffic lights or stops.
I am not a "don't drive fast" puritan by any means (though I may have created a few who have been sitting in the passenger seat when I'm driving). But more speed = more death is indisputable.
Point missed.
And that is why it is impossible to have a productive discussion with a teenager. :lol: Right-y-oh no use washing washing an old mans ears, as we say back home.
northener
24-Jul-09, 21:53
I passed my driving test with only 2 minor faults, and passed the theory test only losing 3 marks out of the 120 odd marks available. Even so, I don't think I'm an amazing driver, but I do think I am competent. I have also driven on many roads, so I feel I'm fairly experienced for my age, especially as many of these local drivers who think they're amazing have only ever driven from Somerfield to the roundabout and back again. And again. And...
A good result on your practical test, Alan. Well done.
But please bear in mind that the test is no more than a 35/40 minute 'snapshot' of your driving - not necessarily a true reflection of your overall driving capabilities. The best drivers don't always do well in test conditions, or pass first time, mind you.
Again, not a personal dig.
However, you're on the right road, (pun intended) so keep your wits about you, plan ahead, don't assume you're any better than anyone else on the road and you'll be fine.
Oh, and make sure you 'know your enemy' when arguing online.......
Best regards
Northener
Long-time bad-tempered DSA Approved Driving Instructor ;)
A good result on your practical test, Alan. Well done.
But please bear in mind that the test is no more than a 35/40 minute 'snapshot' of your driving - not necessarily a true reflection of your overall driving capabilities. The best drivers don't always do well in test conditions, or pass first time, mind you.
Again, not a personal dig.
However, you're on the right road, (pun intended) so keep your wits about you, plan ahead, don't assume you're any better than anyone else on the road and you'll be fine.
Oh, and make sure you 'know your enemy' when arguing online.......
Best regards
Northener
Long-time bad-tempered DSA Approved Driving Instructor ;)
Good to see Northener back on form.:lol:
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