View Full Version : Scotlands National Anthem
As a result of watching our Athletes winning so many medals in Melbourne at the Games. I wondered why we did not have a properly recognised "National Anthem".
I have seen the Fans at Murrayfield ( including members of the Royal Family) belting out Flower Of Scotland also the Tartan Army, but this is the first time I have seen or heard Scotland the Brave being played as our National Anthem. BBC Scotland News conducted a straw poll last night and Auld Lang Syne was even suggested.
What do our Orgers think?
Flower of Scotland for sure!
Flower of Scotland is a great tune and obviously appeals to the defiance streak of any worthy Scotsperson but that is just it. To me, FoS hasn't got enough mileage, it is a bar room anthem rather than something worthy of being listened to by international heads of state. If Scotland adopts FoS as the Anthem, considering its lyrics, then it will condemn itself to be in the shadow of its larger and more powerful neighbour for all time. Scotland needs to rise above all that anti Englishness if it is to be taken seriously on the International stage.
I think a National Anthem should be adopted that sums up the virtues of Scotland rather than past skirmishes, Scotland deserves a better image to project to the World.
It has to be Flower of Scotland for me.
candyfloss
22-Mar-06, 10:47
It has to be FLOWER OF SCOTLAND:)
Something else just would'nt be the same:(
weeboyagee
22-Mar-06, 10:53
Rheghead - you have flippin' cheek saying what you said:
Read this:
God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen!
O lord God arise,
Scatter our enemies,
And make them fall!
Confound their knavish tricks,
Confuse their politics,
On you our hopes we fix,
God save the Queen!
Not in this land alone,
But be God's mercies known,
From shore to shore!
Lord make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world ov'er
From every latent foe,
From the assasins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen!
Thy choicest gifts in store,
On her be pleased to pour,
Long may she reign!
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause,
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen!
And you have the neck to say:
If Scotland adopts FoS as the Anthem, considering its lyrics, then it will condemn itself to be in the shadow of its larger and more powerful neighbour for all time. Scotland needs to rise above all that anti Englishness if it is to be taken seriously on the International stage.
I think a National Anthem should be adopted that sums up the virtues of Scotland rather than past skirmishes, Scotland deserves a better image to project to the World.
That national anthem could be read to reflect the modern time but it was written with a very different theme - verse two was written in a very different vein at the time! I think the "English" national anthem could do with being re-written in accordance with your own statement's suggestions for the "Scottish" national anthem. Furthermore, how about the rest of the "English" national anthem where it says "we'll bring you Scots to dread!". Oh Flower of Scotland is a nursery rhyme in comparison. The national anthem above is NOT the national anthem of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - it is the inherant song of the single nation that beat a third of the world into submission and later called it the Commonwealth for which we should all be eternally grateful for? Little wonder the Australians and Canadians have debates every now and then about still being part of it.......... :eyes
Or are you winding me up again :)
As or me - erm,.... you're not going to believe this but I don't think that Flower of Scotland is a song worthy of being a national anthem. Hail Caledonia, Scotland the Brave (at the right pace and with a better arrangement) are two of the candidates.
porshiepoo
22-Mar-06, 10:57
Does it really matter??? Seriously!!!!!!
porshiepoo
22-Mar-06, 11:06
Rheghead - you have flippin' cheek saying what you said:
Read this:
God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen!
O lord God arise,
Scatter our enemies,
And make them fall!
Confound their knavish tricks,
Confuse their politics,
On you our hopes we fix,
God save the Queen!
Not in this land alone,
But be God's mercies known,
From shore to shore!
Lord make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world ov'er
From every latent foe,
From the assasins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen!
Thy choicest gifts in store,
On her be pleased to pour,
Long may she reign!
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause,
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen!
And you have the neck to say:
That national anthem could be read to reflect the modern time but it was written with a very different theme - verse two was written in a very different vein at the time! I think the "English" national anthem could do with being re-written in accordance with your own statement's suggestions for the "Scottish" national anthem. Furthermore, how about the rest of the "English" national anthem where it says "we'll bring you Scots to dread!". Oh Flower of Scotland is a nursery rhyme in comparison. The national anthem above is NOT the national anthem of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - it is the inherant song of the single nation that beat a third of the world into submission and later called it the Commonwealth for which we should all be eternally grateful for? Little wonder the Australians and Canadians have debates every now and then about still being part of it.......... :eyes
Or are you winding me up again :)
As or me - erm,.... you're not going to believe this but I don't think that Flower of Scotland is a song worthy of being a national anthem. Hail Caledonia, Scotland the Brave (at the right pace and with a better arrangement) are two of the candidates.
How about 'Scotland, we're never gonna integrate with anyone willingly'? or 'Scotland we're so righteous we deserve to be seperate from the rest of the country' or even better how about ' Scotland can't / won't forgive anything English'
Seriously, get over yourselves. Scotland is a great place with great people but it is no better, no different than any other place in the British Isles - It is but a name.
Shouldn't we all be thinking more toward a unity of the British Isles? Get over animosities that happened centuaries ago - so you got your butt whipped, what of it?
Don't be so quick to segregate yourself from the rest of the country and don't read something into the national anthem that just isn't there just because you want to justify having your own.
Personally I think we should have a new national anthem that reflects the times abit more but IMO Scotland should not have a seperate anthem.
God Save the Queen is the UK National Anthem. Is Land of Hope and Glory not used as the English National Anthem at the Commonwealth Games?
Flower of Scotland is not a suitable anthem for Scotland.
I am happy to stick with GSTQ, but Auld Lang Syne would be a great choice.......that or 500miles:)
50F degrees
People in southern England turn on the central heating People in Edinburgh plant out bedding plants
40F degrees
Southerners shiver uncontrollably
Glaswegians sunbathe on the beach at Largs
35F degrees
Cars in the south of England refuse to start
People in Falkirk drive with theirw indows down
20F degrees
Southerners wear overcoats, gloves and woolly hats
Aberdonian men throw on a T-shirt; girls start wearing mini-skirts
15F degrees
Southerners begin to evacuate to the continent
People from Dundee swim in the River Tay at Broughty Ferry
Zero degrees
Life in the south grinds to a halt
Inverness folk have the last BBQ before it gets cold
Minus 10F degrees
Life in the south ceases to exist
People in Dunfermline throw on a light jacket
Minus 80F degrees
Polar bears wonder if it's worth carrying on
Boy Scouts in Oban start wearing their long trousers
Minus 100F degrees
Santa Claus abandons North Pole
People in Stirling put on their 'long johns'
Minus 173F degrees
Alcohol freezes
Glaswegians get upset because all the pubs are shut
Minus 297F degrees
Microbial life starts to disappear
The cows in Dumfriesshire complain about farmers with cold hands
Minus 460F degrees
All atomic motion stops
Shetlanders stamp their feet and blow on their hands
Minus 500F degrees
Hell freezes over
Scotland wins the World Cup
Weeboyagee, I think you need to appreciate that the word England does not appear in the National Anthem and that the reference to putting down the uppity Scots has never been part of the National Anthem, now, you were saying?
Also, the National anthem is the British anthem not England's, ie, it is not played during the medals when an English person stands on the rostrum.
Also, the scattering of enemies were in a lot of cases done by Scots in the defense of the King/Queen of Britain, not England.
Therefore your condemnation of my post seems highly fallacious given these facts. I am rather proud of the fact that Britain brought a quarter of the Globe under the Union flag. Under most circumstances it was consentual to the indigenous population. It is the neomodern apologeticists that are condemning past British rule as tyrannical, it wasn't perfect but it certainly wasn't subjugative. It brought the rule of law when in a lot of cases it didn't exist. Britain is respected throughout the Globe as one that upholds human rights, fairness, free trade and justice. To tarnish this image, in my opinion, is tantamount to treachery.
Gawd golach, what have you started here?
I'm with Scotsboy - 500 miles would be a cracker. :)
Having said that, if you haven't belted out Flower of Scotland on the Murrayfield terraces at the Calcutta Cup with 67,000 others then you ain't lived. That experience is something else, it gets you right "there". :)
I voted for Scotland the Brave. The title says it all and the tempo has a feel of a determination to be upbeat about it. This also sums up the Scotland that Scots should be proud of.
Marty McFly
22-Mar-06, 11:55
I voted for Scotland the Brave. The title says it all and the tempo has a feel of a determination to be upbeat about it. This also sums up the Scotland that Scots should be proud of.
I agree..."Scotland the Brave" for me too. Flower of Scotland is pretty dour when you hear it played on tv at sporting events.
Scotland the Brave may be more "appropriate" in many ways, and it used to be the "anthem" before Flower of Scotland was (eventually) adopted by popular demand, but no-one paid much attention to it.
FoS became the de facto anthem at sporting events many years ago - people sang it on the Murrayfield terraces regardless of what was being played "officially", and at some stage it became the "official" anthem. It may be a pathetic little ditty to some, but it does its job well and I think we should use it until someone comes up with something that is both "better" and (just as importantly) popular with the people.
I can sympathise with porshiepoo's integrationist views, but I disagree with much of what she says. One doesn't have to be anti-English to be pro-Scots. Devolution, the Scottish Parliament, and its ongoing folly may be far from perfect, but I think they've had a positive effect on the "Scottishness" and "nationalism" debates - both in the workplace, and on the the streets and in the pubs - at least in the central belt. We now have at least some feeling that we're in charge of our own destiny, and our behaviour and attitudes have become more mature and more responsible - in theory at least! I get the impression that Caithness feels as far from the corridors of power as ever, and so things haven't progressed nearly as much up there. Or have I spent too many years down here and become "one of them"?
footie chick
22-Mar-06, 12:00
Having said that, if you haven't belted out Flower of Scotland on the Murrayfield terraces at the Calcutta Cup with 67,000 others then you ain't lived. That experience is something else, it gets you right "there". :)
Agree with you makes you proud to be scottish even better at the final whistle!:o)
You're not thinking fourth dimensionally! :cool:You're dead right I'm not. My research has been in five dimensions for the last six months or so. It took me several years to learn to think in 4D, but the fifth is a killer. Maybe I should explain it some day...
willowbankbear
22-Mar-06, 12:17
Can of worms, that1 is Golach:grin:
Id be happy if someone composed a new anthem,the 1 `s we have sound old fashioned.
Listening to Donnie Munro sing F.O.S is not very inspiring to me, Auld Lang syne is an ace tune for hogmanay but not much else.
500 miles is ok if ye like the twins.
Scotland the Brave is dated, So why not have a new anthem?
Then comes the next problem,who composes it?
cuddlepop
22-Mar-06, 12:21
Flower of Scotland for me creates a passion only the others touch.:grin:
Hsa to be flower of scotland .
Does it really matter??? Seriously!!!!!!
You seem to think it does .
[quote porshie] Scotland can't / won't forgive anything English'
porshie i have forgiven you on several occasions i dont agree with what you are saying .
Voted for a new one altogether.
Although I agree with the good Dr, there is nothing like the feeling when Murrayfield is belting out FoS, it's not the right sentiment for a national anthem. Anthems should be positive and celebratory - it should be about why we are proud of Scotland and being Scottish.
The other options don't quite do it for me. My option would be Highland Cathedral with some shiny new lyrics.
Although 500 miles would be a cracker !
Don't get me started on England using GSTQ, that's just wrong - Land of Hope and Glory is a good option for them I think.
For the information of those who think that Flower of Scotland is rather "Anti-English" in it's sentiments here is the verse quietly dropped from "God Save the Queen" at the insistence of the PC Brigade.
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the Queen.
Nothing "Anti-Scottish" there, is there?
There's nothing wrong with "Flower of Scotland" as a National Anthem.
Jaws if you are going to quote, make sure you get it correct. That verse was removed - when it was sung it was God Save the King.........anyway I have no problems with crushing rebellious Scots;)
Voted for a new one altogether.
Don't get me started on England using GSTQ, that's just wrong - Land of Hope and Glory is a good option for them I think.
Squeezy, not a new one. Oh no, definitely not a new one!
Look what a mess they made of "That Buildind" in Edinburgh.
The world and it's dog will have to have a say. They will form a Consultative Committee to discuss the organising of a Steering Group in order to arrange the contributers to a Creative Committee and you will end up with a Three Legged Camel which will drive everybody to dispair if not attempted suicide.
And then somebody will decide it is too Nationalistic and demand that the name "Scotland" should be removed for not being "Inclusive".
I agree with your statement that "God Save the Queen" should not be used to represent anything which is purely English.
When teams represent Britain at events such as the Olympics then fine.
When the individual Countries are separately represented then England should have a separate English National Anthem.
Personally, I would suggest "Jerusalem".
Jaws if you are going to quote, make sure you get it correct. That verse was removed - when it was sung it was God Save the King.........anyway I have no problems with crushing rebellious Scots;)
It was certainly used during the reign of Queen Victoria and, unless I am mistaken, was still included at the start of the reign of this Queen.
I've not checked when it was "Officially" removed, if indeed it ever was.
I rather suspect it was one of those things which was just quietly dropped in the hope that by the time anybody noticed it would be too late.
"Don't say anything, they may never miss it!"
I don't think that is correct.
http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/articles/monscot.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/god-save-the-queen
Whitewater
22-Mar-06, 15:17
I have not voted on this. I like FoS, it's great and is terrific at Murrayfield.
If we want something which can be made to sound really majestic, we should think of "Scots Wha Hae" it would also answer all the warlike and oppresive verses in "God Save the Queen"
But maybe that would be tooooo controvesial for the sensitive souls of todays world.
I have not voted on this. I like FoS, it's great and is terrific at Murrayfield.
If we want something which can be made to sound really majestic, we should think of "Scots Wha Hae" it would also answer all the warlike and oppresive verses in "God Save the Queen"
But maybe that would be tooooo controvesial for the sensitive souls of todays world.Nice one Whitewater - sheer brilliance. I'm in tears of laughter here - honestly! :lol:
The world and it's dog will have to have a say.
Very true Jaws - it would get very ugly and I don't think anyone wants that!
How about 'Scotland, we're never gonna integrate with anyone willingly'? or 'Scotland we're so righteous we deserve to be seperate from the rest of the country' or even better how about ' Scotland can't / won't forgive anything English'
How about you read the Declaration of Arbroath
http://www.constitution.org/scot/arbroath.htm
Cedric Farthsbottom III
22-Mar-06, 17:04
Flower o' Scotland for definite.The guy fae the Corries Roy Williamson wrote this song,so its a quite up to date song compared to other countries.
Roy probably wrote it as a wee personal folk song for his own personal beliefs in his OWN country.
One thing though as Murrayfield shows,when this song is performed right and everybody sings their heart oot and the band is in tune....man,even the hairs on the hairs o' the back o' yer neck stand up.
The problem that I have seen is if the band disnae know it(i.e every Scotland fitbaw,rugby,elphant polo away match).Then it just disnae seem right in the way that it sounds!!!!
SOLUTION:Get the Scottish Executive to pay for a few bands to follow Scotland teams around the globe.We'd win EVERYTHING!!!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol:
The Pepsi Challenge
22-Mar-06, 17:33
Scotland The Brave. Our traditional anthem. Flower of Scotland is an anti-English song written by a folk-pop band. I wonder if anyone is thinking about commissioning Aberfeldy to write something?
Cedric Farthsbottom III
22-Mar-06, 17:49
Scotland The Brave. Our traditional anthem. Flower of Scotland is an anti-English song written by a folk-pop band. I wonder if anyone is thinking about commissioning Aberfeldy to write something?
Ah knew the Corries were a folk band but a folk-pop band.When it came to the pop bit..........mandolins arenae the best.Mind ye The Faces did it on Maggie May!!!!!!!
There was a story going round,is it an urban myth, I don't know.But the story goes that the Scots were sleeping and the English army had started their attack.The English army stepped on some thistles and woke up the Scots......ah thought it was the thistle the song was about.
The Pepsi Challenge
22-Mar-06, 18:23
Same thing happened between The Beatles and the Blue Meanies in Yellow Submarine. Only The Beatles stepped on a set of bagpipes. I know the Blue Meanies hated music - but I'd say they were being compared to the Nazis and not Scots.
I voted for Scotland the Brave. The title says it all and the tempo has a feel of a determination to be upbeat about it. This also sums up the Scotland that Scots should be proud of.
I voted for Scotland the Brave right away, even before I read the posts, and for just about the same reason as Rheghead! :) Great minds think alike, eh, Rheggers? ;)
The song was very popular when I was a bairn, and I can well remember both Kenneth McKellar and Andy Stewart singing it on black and white TV. I didn't realise the lyrics were actually writen in the 1950s, though, till I was looking for them in their entirety. This is what I found on Wikipedia, although a Google search specified that the words were written in 1956 by Scottish journalist Cliff Hanley:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_the_Brave
Hark when the night is falling
Hear! Hear the pipes are calling,
Loudly and proudly calling,
Down thro' the glen.
There where the hills are sleeping,
Now feel the blood a-leaping,
High as the spirits of the old Highland men.
Towering in gallant fame,
Scotland my mountain hame,
High may your proud standards gloriously wave,
Land of my high endeavour,
Land of the shining river,
Land of my heart for ever,
Scotland the brave.
High in the misty Highlands,
Out by the purple islands,
Brave are the hearts that beat
Beneath Scottish skies.
Wild are the winds to meet you,
Staunch are the friends that greet you,
Kind as the love that shines from fair maiden's eyes.
Towering in gallant fame,
Scotland my mountain hame,
High may your proud standards gloriously wave,
Land of my high endeavour,
Land of the shining river,
Land of my heart for ever,
Scotland the brave.
Far off in sunlit places,
Sad are the Scottish faces,
Yearning to feel the kiss
Of sweet Scottish rain.
Where tropic skies are beaming,
Love sets the heart a-dreaming,
Longing and dreaming for the homeland again.
Towering in gallant fame,
Scotland my mountain hame,
High may your proud standards gloriously wave,
Land of my high endeavour,
Land of the shining river,
Land of my heart for ever,
Scotland the brave.
Scotland the Brave's the wan.
Great words and a great tune - Come awa' the Scots, wha's like us, precious few and they're aw deid..............
pultneytooner
22-Mar-06, 19:19
SCOTLAND WILL FLOURISH
Scotland will flourish by the sweat of labor
The strength of our will and the force of our mind
Forget the old battles, those days are over
Hatred corrupts and friendship refines
Let the Scots be a nation proud of their heritage
With an eye to the future and a heart to forgive
And let us be rid of those bigots and fools
Who will not let Scotland live and let live
Let us govern over country wisely and fairly
Let each man and woman work with a will
And Scotland will flourish secure in the knowledge
That we reap our own harvest and ring our own till
So let us be known for our kind hospitality
A hand that is open proper to friends
A hard working people, proud and unbending
Scotland will thrive and win out in the end
Another song by Roy Williamson
Flower of Scotland never fails to stir my soul no matter who's singing it or where it's sung! :o)
What about Hail Caledonia......heard it sung solo at a funeral last year it was beautiful! I dont know the words so am unsure whether it would suitable for the Scottish National Anthem.......just a thought! :o)
Although I agree with the good Dr, there is nothing like the feeling when Murrayfield is belting out FoS, it's not the right sentiment for a national anthem. Anthems should be positive and celebratory - it should be about why we are proud of Scotland and being Scottish.Agreed.
The other options don't quite do it for me. My option would be Highland Cathedral with some shiny new lyrics.Hmm, not convinced. I happen to have Highland Cathedral on my iPod and it's playing right now. Isn't it a bit too soft and folksy for an anthem? And it's not gonna stir hearts at Murrayfield or Hampden like FoS does.
Although 500 miles would be a cracker !The more I think about this the more I like the idea. :lol: The Proclaimers did it at Live 8 last summer at Murrayfield and it went down well - despite the cold and the rain.
Don't get me started on England using GSTQ, that's just wrong - Land of Hope and Glory is a good option for them I think.Or Jerusalem. And if they don't want it then we can nick it and make it ours by changing "Eng...." to "Scot...." in a few places. :)
Scotland the Brave just doesn't do it for most people. And those lyrics are way too dewey-eyed for me - where's the death and destruction? ;) We once had StB and it died a death. It survives in parts like the proverbial Norwegian-blue parrot. Let's move on...
I go for Scots Wha' Hae as my first choice - with some shiny new lyrics for the faint-hearted. :D
scotland the brave is fine, flower of scotland is a good tune. Im all for the proclaimers though. cracking tune.
Scotland The Brave. Our traditional anthem. Flower of Scotland is an anti-English song written by a folk-pop band. I wonder if anyone is thinking about commissioning Aberfeldy to write something?
A folk-pop band??????? where are you coming from?? You have some weird ideas in my opinion about music
The Corrie Folk Trio and Paddy Bell were never a pop band
http://www.moray.gov.uk/museums/corries/corries_page1.htm
...What do our Orgers think?
I have declined the invitation to vote in this poll. As a child of the diaspora, I don't think that it is my place to comment on Scotland's National Anthem. However, I will say that I have very much appreciated reading your responses to golach's original post. WBG, thanks for your contribution of the full text of God Save the Queen. We use it too (well, the first verse.)
I now better understand the source of much of my own sense of Canadian patriotism. It's in my Scottish genes to be patriotic!
The idea of a new anthem is intriguing. Why not give it a go? There is lots of talent out there on caithness.org! :) The English version of O Canada was written by another child of the diaspora, Robert Stanley Weir. So, we know that Scots can write national anthems. Those words should just be flowing out of your fingertips by now!
The Pepsi Challenge
23-Mar-06, 05:59
A folk-pop band??????? where are you coming from?? You have some weird ideas in my opinion about music
The Corrie Folk Trio and Paddy Bell were never a pop band
http://www.moray.gov.uk/museums/corries/corries_page1.htm
The Corries had several albums in the top 50 album charts. That makes them a 'folk-pop' group in my opinion. Go and listen to Aberfeldy.
The Corries had several albums in the top 50 album charts. That makes them a 'folk-pop' group in my opinion. Go and listen to Aberfeldy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corries
Nowhere in this link does it say that the Corries are a "Pop" group or performed as a "Pop" group, I will agree that they were a "Popular" Folk group in the 1970's and had albums in the Scottish Charts. This was at a time when the political fever in Scotland saw the rise of the SNP, and national pride and a feeling of patriotism was higher than it is now.
Caledonia (Frankie Miller) would be another good one.
Flower of Scotland has never done it for me. It has always seemed too slow and more befitting a wake than a National Anthem. It is also one of the great ironic songs, in that it talks of days being in the past and having to remain in the past, yet the main sentiment for most singing the song always seems to be the "putting it up proud Edward". Fans also seem to forget that Scotland lost the "replay" and went out on away goals ;o)
There seems little evidence of us rising to be that nation again and in any case I would rather see things moving forward instead of referring back to bloody battles from long ago. On that basis I would vote for something new, keeping the Scottish character but focussing on more positive elements, such as the beauty of our country and the quality of many of its people.
Hey Orger's have a look at this, are we ahead of our First Minister or is Jack a lurking Orger
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16855915%26method=full%26siteid=66633% 26headline=all%2dstand%2dfor%2da%2dnew%2dnational% 2danthem%2d-name_page.html
Sorry Golach I refuse to lower myself to view anything associated with the Daily Record. I also refuse to listen to the half-wit that is our First Minister.
I do however have another suggestion for Scotland's National Anthem:
Donald Where's yer Troosers
The Pepsi Challenge
24-Mar-06, 10:50
Sorry Golach I refuse to lower myself to view anything associated with the Daily Record.
Tsk! Not even for me, scotsboy?
The Pepsi Challenge
24-Mar-06, 10:51
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corries
Nowhere in this link does it say that the Corries are a "Pop" group or performed as a "Pop" group, I will agree that they were a "Popular" Folk group in the 1970's and had albums in the Scottish Charts. This was at a time when the political fever in Scotland saw the rise of the SNP, and national pride and a feeling of patriotism was higher than it is now.
It's cool, man; chill. I meant pop in terms of popular and not as a genre. By the way, would you automatically trust anything wikipedia tells you? Am curious.
It is a comic with the lowest of the low with regards to its journalistic (sic) efforts.
The Pepsi Challenge
24-Mar-06, 10:55
You love it really.
One of the perks of living abroad is not having to put up with the Scottish media - another example of how low our once proud Nation has sunk.
Sorry Golach I refuse to lower myself to view anything associated with the Daily Record. I also refuse to listen to the half-wit that is our First Minister.
I do however have another suggestion for Scotland's National Anthem:
Donald Where's yer Troosers
scotsboy, the article about our First Minister and the Anthem is in all the Scottish newspapers, the broadsheets included, but on a google search the first one I came across happened to be in the Scottish Daily Record, I admit I read the Record along with one or two other Scottish and Edinburgh publications. The Sports coverage of Scotland in the Record is by far the better of all the others
Whitewater
24-Mar-06, 17:36
I can just imigine "Caledon" singing "Scots Wha Hae" with the backing of a massive, full bodied orchestra.
Ahh man, what an effect that would have on our souls.
Flower of Scotland makes me ashamed to be Scottish. It's a sad day when all we can proudly sing about is a battle we won in 1314. We don't sing much about Flodden!!! Scotland the what?? Lets have something new.
SCOTLAND WILL FLOURISH
Scotland will flourish by the sweat of labor
The strength of our will and the force of our mind
Forget the old battles, those days are over
Hatred corrupts and friendship refines
Let the Scots be a nation proud of their heritage
With an eye to the future and a heart to forgive
And let us be rid of those bigots and fools
Who will not let Scotland live and let live
Let us govern over country wisely and fairly
Let each man and woman work with a will
And Scotland will flourish secure in the knowledge
That we reap our own harvest and ring our own till
So let us be known for our kind hospitality
A hand that is open proper to friends
A hard working people, proud and unbending
Scotland will thrive and win out in the end
Another song by Roy Williamson
Beat me to it, pultneytooner!
I think that that would be a great National Anthem...not trashing anyone, and a decent tune!
By far my favourite.
Caledonia (Frankie Miller) would be another good one.
Good Call!
Flower of Scotland is more sectarian than the sash!
The Sash is not sectarian at all. I chalelnge you to indicate what is sectarian about the Sash My Father Wore - you may not like it, but it is not sectarian.......and it is a damn fine tune. Much as I would love it to be, I dont think it is a candidate for Scotland's National Anthem.
The Pepsi Challenge
26-Mar-06, 17:34
You're absolutely right. The Sash is not a sectarian song at all. I do object to it, however being sung to wind people up. As for it being our national anthem? Hmm... don't think this particular 'lyric' adds much weight:
"Sure l'm an Ulster Orangeman, from Erin's isle I came"
The Sash is not sectarian at all. I chalelnge you to indicate what is sectarian about the Sash My Father Wore - you may not like it, but it is not sectarian.......and it is a damn fine tune. Much as I would love it to be, I dont think it is a candidate for Scotland's National Anthem.
The sash not sectarian.....hmmmmm what was that great scottish hero Donald Finlay singing when he got censured then?
I'm not sure actually, can't remember, but dont think it was the Sash. The fact that he was "censured" is more to do with double standards and the fickleness of our media than any harm/detriment caused by singing a song (however unacceptable to those who were not present).
The Sash is not sectarian at all. I chalelnge you to indicate what is sectarian about the Sash My Father Wore - you may not like it, but it is not sectarian.......and it is a damn fine tune. Much as I would love it to be, I dont think it is a candidate for Scotland's National Anthem.
Challenge declined, you're missing my point. Every second scottish person and his dog criticises the use of this song without even a hint of irony.
I love the song.
Lets get an anthem thats pro scottish instead of anti english. It's a sad state of affairs when the best thing we can find to sing a be proud about is a war fought 700 years ago.
The Pepsi Challenge
27-Mar-06, 09:45
Had another wee think about The Sash... I reckon, that, well... there is nothing wrong with it, just as "No Surrender" celebrates a battle where the Apprentices Boys defended Derry (their name for the city!) against overwhelming odds. Nothing wrong with it. It is the same vein of folk culture as rebel songs for Irish republicanism. These songs should be sung in places where there is like minded company and the audience is exclusive.
And that is why I detest the song sung at football matches, or rugby matches, athletics games etc. It is divisive and has no place at a football match. The songs should be sung in exclusive company where noone will be offended. At Ibrox they are sung as a triumphalist GIRUY to Celtic supporters.
And that is Celtic supporters should not sing Republican songs at Celtic matches. They have nothing to do with football and it is not exclusive company.
Personally I don't think it should be an issue - it was many hundreds of years ago in terms of the Boyne and Derry and it is now an integral part of Irish history and culture in terms of most of the Republican songs. Unfortunately the issue is still loaded and is misunderstood by the knuckle draggers and those who think that the battles of the past give them a superiority in the present.
So scotsboy is quite right to suggest this. However, I ask him thus: why is The Sash sung with such gusto? Is it because those who do give vent to a hatred and a divisive sectarian culture which is abhorent to most of us?
Challenge declined, you're missing my point. Every second scottish person and his dog criticises the use of this song without even a hint of irony.
I love the song.
Lets get an anthem thats pro scottish instead of anti english. It's a sad state of affairs when the best thing we can find to sing a be proud about is a war fought 700 years ago.
Check your history the "sash" is a song supporting the "Apprentice Boys" and the seige of Londonderry in 1688. When the conflict in N Ireland started, it was Protestants citizens versus Jacobite troops.
So I ask the question, what has this got to do with us Scots, and why do the bigots and you have to admit there are lot out there that sing it with such gusto at certain football matches, and as you say theone......you love the song!!!!!!
Check your history the "sash" is a song supporting the "Apprentice Boys" and the seige of Londonderry in 1688. When the conflict in N Ireland started, it was Protestants citizens versus Jacobite troops.
So I ask the question, what has this got to do with us Scots, and why do the bigots and you have to admit there are lot out there that sing it with such gusto at certain football matches, and as you say theone......you love the song!!!!!!
My history on this matter is fine.
I was never suggesting the song be used as the scottish anthem, just showing the irony that a great number of people including our first minister seem to miss. They are happy to brand this song as bigoted and condemn its use and then proudly sing flower of scotland!
My history on this matter is fine.
I was never suggesting the song be used as the scottish anthem, just showing the irony that a great number of people including our first minister seem to miss. They are happy to brand this song as bigoted and condemn its use and then proudly sing flower of scotland!
What dont you understand, It is a Protestant IRISH song, not Scots, so why do you and your ilk chant it and others of the same, at every oppertunity.
Flower of Scotland is a Scottish song at least, and that is what the poll is for, find a Scottish Anthem.....not a racial Irish bigoted dirge.
Golach, you may find the following book of interest:
Born Fighting, How the Scots-Irish Shaped America by James Webb.
It details the epic story of the Scots-Irish, a people whose lives and Worldview were dictated by resistence, conflict, and struggle, and who in turn, profoundly infleunced the social, political, and cultural landscape of America from its beginings to the present day. (that is a synopsis from the book cover).
It is well worth a read and may put some things into perspective.
Golach, musically Flower of Scotland is a DIRGE and the SASH a damn fine tune!!!
Golach, you may find the following book of interest:
Born Fighting, How the Scots-Irish Shaped America by James Webb.
It details the epic story of the Scots-Irish, a people whose lives and Worldview were dictated by resistence, conflict, and struggle, and who in turn, profoundly infleunced the social, political, and cultural landscape of America from its beginings to the present day. (that is a synopsis from the book cover).
It is well worth a read and may put some things into perspective.
But watch my lips scotsboy.......I am Scottish....NOT Irish, I fully understand how the new world became a better place because of the influence of the Celts. But I still ask the question, how can you say the "Sash" when sung and played in Scotland, is not a bigoted chant
Golach, musically Flower of Scotland is a DIRGE and the SASH a damn fine tune!!!
I, as a musician of forty years standing, have said on many occasions that the Flower of Scotland, as a piece of music, is simplistic garbage. If this is the best we can do then The Flower os Scotland is withered and gone. There is no mention of religion in the Fields of Athenry but this song creates tension and latent violence every time it is played to a mixed audience. I love playing the Sash as it contains energy that is uplifting and powerful. The conflict that the music creates is entirely down to the bigots on either side of the religious devide who cannot forget the bigoted, religion-dominated past that is destroying our future and keeping us apart as human beings.
Give us a new tune that reflects today. Not a yesterday that never really existed outside of the pens of the Romantics who see our past through rose tinted spectacles.
As a footnote, I have an absolute antipathy to the British National Anthem.
I vaguely remember that there was a competition a few years ago for a Scottish National Anthem - was it when the new Parliament was being opened?
Anyone else remember this?
weeboyagee
27-Mar-06, 22:33
Right boys - time out! The debate when I last waded in was about the National Anthem of Scotland.
Fact (1) The Sash is an Irish Song.
Fact (2) The Fields of Athenry is an Irish Song.
Fact (3) Flower of Scotland is a Scots song and that's it.
The Scots and Irish are linked through their Celtic dynasty but if our fathers and fore-fathers knew what we were doing with their songs at football matches they'd be turning in their graves - no matter what their religious motivation was! They composed these tunes for very real reasons to do with the history at the time - not to chant and wind up (although not all fans do) the opposition with them!
Sorry, but Flower of Scotland (although a terrific song for Scots) is not reflective enough of the land and it's people. I see someone else in this debate has heard of Hail Caledonia. For those of you who don't know the lyrics - here they are - they're great and well placed as a National Anthem:
Hail Caledonia!
Chorus
Let the Irish sing of their Em'rld Isle
Where the four leav'd shamrock grows,
Let the English praise their valleys and braes,
And the bonny blooming rose,
But give me the land of the heather and the kilt,
The mountain and the river,
For the blood leaps in my veins
When I hear the bagpipe's strains
Scotland, dear old Scotland forever!
Hail Caledonia! land of my childhood,
Home of my birth, so radiant and fair.
Though I have roam'd through the world and its beauties,
Nowhere on earth with thee can compare.
Thou art majestic and regal in splendour,
Thou art the land of the gallant and free,
Lassies with hearts aye so true and so tender.
Hail Caledonia! how I love thee!
Chorus
Hail Caledonia! birthplace of heroes
Whose names are scribed on the parchment of fame;
Heroes whose lives were a noble example
That others might follow and honour thy name.
Scotsmen, I give you a toast, make it your toast
Fill up your glasses, aye, full to the brim:
Here's to Auld Scotland, her lads and her lassies -
Long rule Britannia! God save the King!
Chorus
Hail Caledonia! thy name acts like magic
On each Scottish heart when they're far o'er the sea.
Down in the South when their day's work is over
Their thoughts turn back, dear old Scotland to thee.
Thy sons are respected and lov'd o'er the world.
A Scotsman is always so staunch and so true.
And if in battle his standard's unfurl'd,
He'll give his life's blood, Caledonia for you.
Chorus
In as much as I love Roy's song, the above captures the whole essence of our country and it's people and for my money you canny whack it! :D
Love it WBG........puts the shivers up my spine! :D I heard it sung last year at an friends funeral.........his grandaughter sang it solo in the church.......even although it was at a funeral, you could feel the congregation standing strong, tall and proud! Ill never forget it! Hail Caledonia would make a brilliant National Anthem! :D
Everyone knows the nationality of the songs you mentioned and I, for one, would not have the timerity or the ignorance to suggest that either of the three songs mentioned should be considered as a Scottish national Anthem.The point about the songs you mention was the strengh of the song and the effect it has on the listening audience and the bigotry it sets off when played to a mixed audience.
I am afraid your choice is as removed from the reality of our once proud country as The Flower would be. Kilts, heather, proud just men, bagpipes? Your anthen would do for a Braveheart type movie, but as far as today is concerned I don't think so!
Everyone knows the nationality of the songs you mentioned and I, for one, would not have the timerity or the ignorance to suggest that either of the three songs mentioned should be considered as a Scottish national Anthem.The point about the songs you mention was the strenght of the song and the effect it has on the listening audience and the bigotry it sets off when played to a mixed audience.
I am afraid your choice is as removed from the reality of our once proud country as The Flower would be. Kilts, heather, proud just men, bagpipes? Your anthen would do for a Braveheart type movie, but as far as today is concerned I don't think so!
Sorry Owld mate, I disagree with you on this, not everyone knows the nationality of the three afore mentioned songs, when 67K sing FoS at Murrayfield...YES, we are all Scots. When the others are chanted an roared at Ibrox and Parkhead......I dont think so, thats when the bigotry comes out.
I agree you are one of the more enlightened, as I suspect WBG is, even if he follows the Gorgieites. But there are others in here who think that bigotry is the norm.
Why dont you are a musician of many years standing compose an Anthem that would encompass the Highlands, Islands & Lowlands. Gone on I dare ye
I have heard all your stories,
About your past glories
I've heard you singing
All your patriotic songs
I've liked the melodies
And even sometimes,
Even some times
I've tried to sing along
But the Flower of Scotland
Is all withered and gone.
You were sold down the river
Signed sealed and delivered
When your leaders forsook you
For bright English gold
And now there's no knowing
Which way it is going
And the truth of their treacherous ways
Will never be told
O Flower of Scotland
You're all withered and old.
I have heard you fighting
When there's wrongs needing righting
I've heard you argue
About the green and the blue
While your children are crying
Tired of all of your lying
As they stand arround the street corners
Sniffing glue
O Flower of Scotland
What can we do.
How's that Golach???
Gleber2, that isn't quite what I had in mind when I suggested a new song be written, but it probably reflects the concerns and pains of modern Scotland. WBG's suggestion does have some moving patriotism to it, even if it is dated. I'll have to get the organist to play it at our next Kirkin' o' the Tartan Service.
The Pepsi Challenge
28-Mar-06, 04:39
I, as a musician of forty years standing, have said on many occasions that the Flower of Scotland, as a piece of music, is simplistic garbage. If this is the best we can do then The Flower os Scotland is withered and gone. There is no mention of religion in the Fields of Athenry but this song creates tension and latent violence every time it is played to a mixed audience. I love playing the Sash as it contains energy that is uplifting and powerful. The conflict that the music creates is entirely down to the bigots on either side of the religious devide who cannot forget the bigoted, religion-dominated past that is destroying our future and keeping us apart as human beings.
Give us a new tune that reflects today. Not a yesterday that never really existed outside of the pens of the Romantics who see our past through rose tinted spectacles.
As a footnote, I have an absolute antipathy to the British National Anthem.
What the man said. An excellent, very well thought out post.
cullbucket
28-Mar-06, 07:04
I would have thought that the 72% vote for Flower of Scotland would have settled this one a long time ago. At the end of the day, Flower of Scotland is the only song that will bring a tear to this exile's eye. It is the song that moves more Scots than any other song by the looks of the vote.
I guess this discussion has been hi-jacked by the other 28% - if you dont get that feeling when you sing or hear that song, then there is no hope. Sometimes you have to let go with the head and feel with the heart.
I have heard all your stories,
About your past glories
I've heard you singing
All your patriotic songs
I've liked the melodies
And even sometimes,
Even some times
I've tried to sing along
But the Flower of Scotland
Is all withered and gone.
You were sold down the river
Signed sealed and delivered
When your leaders forsook you
For bright English gold
And now there's no knowing
Which way it is going
And the truth of their treacherous ways
Will never be told
O Flower of Scotland
You're all withered and old.
I have heard you fighting
When there's wrongs needing righting
I've heard you argue
About the green and the blue
While your children are crying
Tired of all of your lying
As they stand arround the street corners
Sniffing glue
O Flower of Scotland
What can we do.
How's that Golach???
2/10 for effort Gleber2, you will have to try harder next time. Your first lyrics made me want to throw myself off some tall building, not stand to attention and sing my wee heart out. A wee history point the 1st Duke of Queensbury got £12000 silver as his bribe from the English to get the Union of the Parliaments signed up.
2/10 for effort Gleber2, you will have to try harder next time. Your first lyrics made me want to throw myself off some tall building, not stand to attention and sing my wee heart out. A wee history point the 1st Duke of Queensbury got £12000 silver as his bribe from the English to get the Union of the Parliaments signed up.
Golllllach, I wrote that song upon hearing FoS for the first time in the late seventies and never would have proposed it for an anthem. I posted it to wind you up[evil] .Now,however, I will try to take up your challenge.
I would have thought that the 72% vote for Flower of Scotland would have settled this one a long time ago. At the end of the day, Flower of Scotland is the only song that will bring a tear to this exile's eye. It is the song that moves more Scots than any other song by the looks of the vote.
I guess this discussion has been hi-jacked by the other 28% - if you dont get that feeling when you sing or hear that song, then there is no hope. Sometimes you have to let go with the head and feel with the heart.
There was a band playing in a Wick hotel last week at a wedding and they had a good night. At the front of the stage there was an old man really enjoying the music until the singer launched into the Flower at which point the old man jumped on stage and threw a right hook at the vocalist. It never connected but I would reckon that this old man would have been one of the 28%. We are proudly singing about something that happened in 1314. Have we nothing closer to now we can sing about?
pultneytooner
28-Mar-06, 13:33
That's a bit extreme, an old man jumping on stage to punch a singer for singing the flower of scotland:lol:
Roy Williamson was a multi talented musician and his songs were never simplistic or garbage in my opinion as a lot better judges than us would confirm and folk will probably still be singing them in 100 years from now.
Those days are past now,
And in the past
they must remain,
But we can still rise now,
And be the nation again,
This verse says it all about why he wrote the song.
That's a bit extreme, an old man jumping on stage to punch a singer for singing the flower of scotland:lol:
Roy Williamson was a multi talented musician and his songs were never simplistic or garbage in my opinion as a lot better judges than us would confirm and folk will probably still be singing them in 100 years from now.
This verse says it all about why he wrote the song.
Well done pultneytooner, my sentiments exactly.
Well done pultneytooner, my sentiments exactly.
Maybe extreme but never-the-less true. He must have learned sense in his seventy years. More than can be said about some pensioners I won't name.:lol:
As far as the simplicity of the Corries music is concerned, most of it was. This does not mean that it wasn't good only that it was simple. I knew the Corries quite well and worked with them a few times but this does not mean that I have to like their muisic and I consider FoS to be one of their simplest and weakest.
Golach, I really don’t want to drag the Sash stuff on for too much longer – it was said in jest by me. I will however correct you if I may, The Sash my Father wore is not an Irish, Scottish, English or Welsh song – it is an Orange song, and as such represents the culture and identity of the Orange traditions, which are found throughout the UK, and in many countries of the World.
I have great admiration for the morals, aims and integrity of the Orange tradition……which is something to be said from someone who is a republican in all but name, I just can’t bear to associate myself with the delinquent republican movement that infests Scotland.
Looking at the vote, a few of us were in favor of something completely different. Flower of Scotland is a maudlin mess, Scots Wha Hae is funereal, what is left? Grannie's Heiland Hame?
The first principle in selecting a national anthem - not that I'm asked terribly often to choose one -is to get a decent tune. You do this by stealing one.
So where should we go looking to appropriate a vibrant melody that will sum up everything this country needs - lyrics to follow.
I cast a fairly wide net and I can't see that country and western has too much to offer - it's whiny and we have enough whiny songs in Scotland. SO then I thought what about some lusty Norwegian bellowing from Greig's Peer Gynt Suite. (Used to such touching effect on the Rab C. Nesbitt tv show.) Perhaps a little too Caithnessy....?
Next I looked at the Great American Songbook and was very much taken by Louiis and Ella singing Stomping at the Savoy. Certainly our soccer hooligans would appreciate it - the home of happy feet indeed! But perhaps too limited.
Then inspiration struck. Opera is where we will find our natonal melody. Something from Carmen perhaps. And didn't Carmen work in a cigarette factory? Well that's perfect for Scotland, tobacco is another lost cause. Is it too politically incorrect to select the Toreador song? It might offend vegans, vegetarians and the prevention of cruelty to animals brigade but we can cater to their needs in the lyrics while leaving the original lyrics as an implied sub-text.
We could call it the tractor driver's song in celebration of the smokers' last stand.....
So lets all get started. Here are the original lyrics which I will update on behalf of the Scottish nation for a mere fraction of what it cost to build that bingo-hall of a parleament in Edinburgh
TOREADORA
DON'T SPEET ON THE FLOOORA
SPEET OUT THE WEENDOW
THAT"S WHAT IT'S FORRA
Great stuff! I can't wait to hear it at Murrayfeld...
Looking at the vote, a few of us were in favor of something completely different. Flower of Scotland is a maudlin mess, Scots Wha Hae is funereal, what is left? Grannie's Heiland Hame?
The first principle in selecting a national anthem - not that I'm asked terribly often to choose one -is to get a decent tune. You do this by stealing one.
So where should we go looking to appropriate a vibrant melody that will sum up everything this country needs - lyrics to follow.
I cast a fairly wide net and I can't see that country and western has too much to offer - it's whiny and we have enough whiny songs in Scotland. SO then I thought what about some lusty Norwegian bellowing from Greig's Peer Gynt Suite. (Used to such touching effect on the Rab C. Nesbitt tv show.) Perhaps a little too Caithnessy....?
Next I looked at the Great American Songbook and was very much taken by Louiis and Ella singing Stomping at the Savoy. Certainly our soccer hooligans would appreciate it - the home of happy feet indeed! But perhaps too limited.
Then inspiration struck. Opera is where we will find our natonal melody. Something from Carmen perhaps. And didn't Carmen work in a cigarette factory? Well that's perfect for Scotland, tobacco is another lost cause. Is it too politically incorrect to select the Toreador song? It might offend vegans, vegetarians and the prevention of cruelty to animals brigade but we can cater to their needs in the lyrics while leaving the original lyrics as an implied sub-text.
We could call it the tractor driver's song in celebration of the smokers' last stand.....
So lets all get started. Here are the original lyrics which I will update on behalf of the Scottish nation for a mere fraction of what it cost to build that bingo-hall of a parleament in Edinburgh
TOREADORA
DON'T SPEET ON THE FLOOORA
SPEET OUT THE WEENDOW
THAT"S WHAT IT'S FORRA
Great stuff! I can't wait to hear it at Murrayfeld...
Here here here. Your cynicism delights me.:D
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