View Full Version : Philosophy and Religion
David Banks
13-Jul-09, 11:43
"Anonymous" is quoted as saying that:
- philosophy is questions that may never be answered, and
- religion is answers that may never be questioned.
I think this is a fair comment. Do you ?
I'd agree about the Philosophy part but as for the religion...
What were the questions that were asked that religion is apparently answering?
I'd also agree on the philosophy statement.
Religion cannot be questioned because that's how it's wanted to be, believed.
Phoebus_Apollo
13-Jul-09, 16:23
"Anonymous" is quoted as saying that:
- philosophy is questions that may never be answered, and
- religion is answers that may never be questioned.
I think this is a fair comment. Do you ?
No - Philosophical questions can be answered on a purely semantic level, religious "answers" are at most empty rhetoric - a moral code which the masses subscribe to in fear of eternal damnation.
I'd be terrified of a religion where you couldn't ask questions.
The beginning of faith is asking questions. And then finding a sense of security which gives you the courage to keep asking the questions and eventually to build a self awareness that lets you communicate with the world.
hummmmm. I think I agree with canuck.
Metalattakk
13-Jul-09, 22:57
The beginning of faith is asking questions. And then finding a sense of security which gives you the courage to keep asking the questions and eventually to build a self awareness that lets you communicate with the world.
That can easily be achieved without having to submit to 'faith' and religion. :roll:
Religion is faith not answers. In some ways it gives people a sense of how to cope with the many stresses in life such as the passing of a loved one. It can help people be strong at hard times.
Logic however gives us answers. Take for example a child asks you "where does rain come from?" if you believed in a religion then you'd say someone gives it to us instead of telling the child the logical answer and more satisfying answer of where it really comes from.
Meshed all together as one religions makes sense but individulally they don't. knowing how and why things are the way they are are what makes sense.
But as a non believer that is only my opinion.;)
oldmarine
14-Jul-09, 04:31
I'd be terrified of a religion where you couldn't ask questions.
The beginning of faith is asking questions. And then finding a sense of security which gives you the courage to keep asking the questions and eventually to build a self awareness that lets you communicate with the world.
I've been studying the Islamic/Muslim religion taught by a former Muslim who converted to a Lutheran. In one of the lessons, he stated that you do not question a Muslim leader. Not being a Muslim, I cannot question that statement, but it could be..... Perhaps someone of the Muslim faith could answer whether this is true.
Phoebus_Apollo
14-Jul-09, 09:44
Religion is faith not answers. In some ways it gives people a sense of how to cope with the many stresses in life such as the passing of a loved one. It can help people be strong at hard times.
Logic however gives us answers. Take for example a child asks you "where does rain come from?" if you believed in a religion then you'd say someone gives it to us instead of telling the child the logical answer and more satisfying answer of where it really comes from.
Meshed all together as one religions makes sense but individulally they don't. knowing how and why things are the way they are are what makes sense.
But as a non believer that is only my opinion.;)
Naturally it is the will of human beings to turn to religion when it suits them - birth, marriage and death being the main reasons - yet happily ignore the "church" for the rest of the time. Atheism provides no belief structure as such and the assumption that implicit logic has the answer for all of life’s questions.
porshiepoo
14-Jul-09, 09:58
Religion can and should be questioned.
Religion becomes the dangerous weapon it is when we accept Religious beliefs as a Grail that cannot be deviated from or questioned.
To my mind, a Religion that cannot be questioned is a Cult!
There are many branches of Philosophy, many of which are topics that will constantly be questioned as mans understanding of the world and life changes and adapts.
And that's as life should be.
There seems to be a lot of focus on religion in the Christian/Catholic sense..... Religion covers a lot more than just Christianity which is a new religion and one that in the modern sense was set up by men in power seeking to secure their power.
Some religions can be very philosophical and quite openly debate life.
redeyedtreefrog
14-Jul-09, 14:36
Religion is pointless and should be questioned so we can show the religious how dumb their beliefs actually are.
Religion is pointless and should be questioned so we can show the religious how dumb their beliefs actually are.
Definetly!
In my opinion religion is the olden days way of explaining terrible natural occurences. I.e. Lighting may be God showing his anger and all that Malarky!
But rather than say that all Religion is nonsense I would like ot offer religious people the chance and ask:
Which religion is the CORRECT one?
I mean they all have different view and stories and if they are to believed then that means some must be disbelieved!
Naturally it is the will of human beings to turn to religion when it suits them - birth, marriage and death being the main reasons - yet happily ignore the "church" for the rest of the time. Atheism provides no belief structure as such and the assumption that implicit logic has the answer for all of life’s questions.
From The Simpsons, following the very late finish of a Baseball match:-
"Today's sunrise is brought to you by God, the big man in the sky who you turn to when you're about to die"
Religion is pointless and should be questioned so we can show the religious how dumb their beliefs actually are.
And so should Science be questioned, in fact everything is open so question in life.
Nothing can explain why we exist, where we exist, if there is a purpose of our existance therefor there will always be Religion until these questions are answered.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
14-Jul-09, 15:37
Religion is taught
Philosophy is learned.
In my opinion,there are more philosiphies than there are religions.For me personally,thats a good thing.:D
Where do you get the idea that religion is opposed to asking questions and finding answers?
Oscar Wilde knew better.
He said: "A cynic is someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing."
So what do you do with Luther, Calvin, Augustine, Aquinas,and John Knox to name but a few non-cynics? The debates these people stirred up are with us still. And I for one
welcome it.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
14-Jul-09, 15:52
Where do you get the idea that religion is opposed to asking questions and finding answers?
Oscar Wilde knew better.
He said: "A cynic is someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing."
So what do you do with Luther, Calvin, Augustine, Aquinas,and John Knox to name but a few non-cynics? The debates these people stirred up are with us still. And I for one
welcome it.
Are you calling me a cynic?How naive?One of the stories I have heard that learned me more in my life was a story,not in the bible,but from a great philosopher called Saint Billy Connolly called "The wee beige jobby".The teachings he gave me I'll never forget.
And so should Science be questioned, in fact everything is open so question in life.
Nothing can explain why we exist, where we exist, if there is a purpose of our existance therefor there will always be Religion until these questions are answered.
Well some of them have? Like evolution?
I ain't an expert on Religion because I don't really like reading about Fairy Tales but I'm sure it says that man was created on the sixth day?
And somewhere in between the creation of earth and that day God must have designed and manufactured a whole bunch of Dinosaur bones and scattered them all over the earth as a game where when we find them we get to name them!
Trok!
Religion is crud!
Phoebus_Apollo
14-Jul-09, 16:30
From The Simpsons, following the very late finish of a Baseball match:-
"Today's sunrise is brought to you by God, the big man in the sky who you turn to when you're about to die"
LOL!! - and as Nietzsche said "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything".Apt.;)
Logic however gives us answers. Take for example a child asks you "where does rain come from?" if you believed in a religion then you'd say someone gives it to us instead of telling the child the logical answer and more satisfying answer of where it really comes from.
Meshed all together as one religions makes sense but individulally they don't. knowing how and why things are the way they are are what makes sense.
But as a non believer that is only my opinion.;)
I've never known logic and religion to be mutually exclusive. The laws of nature are part of a greater whole, just as the laws that govern us in Scotland provide for an exciting society where people can live together in peace and thus build a great country using the individual creative talents of everyone.
Religion is pointless and should be questioned so we can show the religious how dumb their beliefs actually are.
All these years of questioning have led me to discover that my beliefs are anything but dumb.
porshiepoo
14-Jul-09, 17:36
Religion is pointless and should be questioned so we can show the religious how dumb their beliefs actually are.
Hahahaha, I assume that retort was aimed at getting alot of response. lol.
I'd be interested to know why you think religion is pointless though.
I believe that religion can be destructive but that's due to mans interpretation and abuse of it, not due to 'religion' itself.
I'm not actually sure that I have a Religious belief in the sense of the word but I do believe in the after life so I guess I believe in Spirituality.
I also believe that there are answers we are just not supposed to know in this life - imagine if everyone alive on this planet 'knew' that there was a life after death, a place where we meet the spirits of our loved ones, a chance to redeem our sins etc etc. There are people alive now who will commit acts of suicide in order to go to 'heaven' and they're just people who believe it exists, imagine if they 'knew'.
Man is not equipped to deal with such knowledge. This life would have no meaning as we'd just figure 'doesn't matter, I'll be forgiven in death and get another chance'.
As for religion being pointless. There are many people who suffer hardships in this life and the only thing that has gotten them through is the belief that there is a point to it all and that we should be learning through the experience.
I for one am such a person.
This doesn't make them a Religious nut and if, when we die there is actually nothing then we'll know nothing about it and be no worse off. However, religion or a belief system will have helped many many people cope with and perhaps understand this lifetime - certainly not pointless in my view.
They say point a gun at a man's head and give him one minute to pull the trigger and they all turn to God.
This may be a bit off topic and I feel I am quite tolerant but I do have quite a dislike for ardent Atheists.
I read a book on Atheism which was reccomended to me and after reading it I felt that it preached to me more than any Holy Book ever could.
The ill's of man were placed firmly on Religions shoulders and it was blamed for everything from ignorance to suffering to war. What this had exactly to do with the argument against the exsistance of deities is beyond me. But I thought that is what Atheism was meant to be about.
Maybe the reason they spend so much time attacking organised religion is because their overall statement that god or god's do not exsist is just as absurd as saying that they do exist!! It's a blind belief in itself given our 000000000000000.1% knowledge of our overall surroundings in the grand scheme of the universe.
Also this book bothered me because it went on about war as if the majority of wars were started because of religious diffrances and if there was no religion there would be peace. It focused heavily on the crusades and to recent troubles in the middle east ect.... but at the same time completly ignored the Napoleonic wars and shockingly the most bloody war of all the first world war which had nothing to do with religion!
Man is corrupt by nature and war comes easy to us and religion is just one of our many reasons we use for going to war, it is certainly however not the root cause in my opinion.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
14-Jul-09, 20:23
Flashman,when you say "man is corrupt by nature",what man are you referring to.You,me or mankind as a whole.
I think ye make life the way ye want it to be.My kids thoughts,my wife's thoughts are different to mine.There is not a corrupt nature between us.Philosophers like to think.Religious folk like to think,as long as it decrees to their specific religion.If they don't decree,then they might reach page 10 of the Sun,or page 25 of the Daily Mail in the further most corner of irrelevant news.
excellent post, luv'd readin 'e different responses.
i love philosophy, really interesting....me an ma brither used til philosophise weel intil 'e early oers :lol:
religion is a funny thing....
guid for ye auldmarine for studyin a different religion....impressive ;)
i hev done a bit o' studyin o' 'e different religions...weel, i took RE as a standard grade....! :cool:
obviously i ken a bit aboot christianity, as we all do, but its choost anither means o' control.
'e government kent (in a sense controlled) what ye got up til durin 'e warm light o' day...work, rearin bairns an ither ivry day stuff....but they didna (couldna) ken (control) what ye got up in 'e cold dark o' 'e night...so they invented 'iss manie, that lives in 'e sky an could see what ye got up til...
a means o' control, for good or bad? who knows...depends if yer a 'law abidin citizen' or no.
i watched 'e religion part o' zeitgeist on utube an it blew me awie. it pointed oot that many gods hev gone before christ, hunders o' years before, wi' exactly same story line....son of god, born to a virgin, 3 kings, 12 deciples, resserection...blah blah...
anyway...i choost hed til get 'at off ma chest....!
I hate science and philosophy and basically anything that questions the supreme being The Flying Spaghetti Monster. I mean what gives them the right?
I have said it before and say it again and again on threads in here Each to there own religion is a personal thing one persons belief another deplores thank goodness we do not have to conform and be dictated to though
We all have choices right or wrong ones and whatever path we choose in life we all have some sort of aid or help from someone
oldmarine
15-Jul-09, 05:27
I have said it before and say it again and again on threads in here Each to there own religion is a personal thing one persons belief another deplores thank goodness we do not have to conform and be dictated to though
We all have choices right or wrong ones and whatever path we choose in life we all have some sort of aid or help from someone
Right on Anne. When I served during WW2 in the Pacific against the Japanese Empire a mortar shell hit close to me knocking me unconscious. It took the life of the person next to me but spared me. I prayed a lot during those battles and survived without being wounded. I don't know why my Lord & God spared me, but I continuously thanked Him for it. I agree, religious beliefs are very personal and no one chould be criticised for their views and beliefs.
Flashman,when you say "man is corrupt by nature",what man are you referring to.You,me or mankind as a whole.
I think ye make life the way ye want it to be.My kids thoughts,my wife's thoughts are different to mine.There is not a corrupt nature between us.Philosophers like to think.Religious folk like to think,as long as it decrees to their specific religion.If they don't decree,then they might reach page 10 of the Sun,or page 25 of the Daily Mail in the further most corner of irrelevant news.
I mean Mankind as whole throughout history in general, there are good and bad people but the nature of humans is one of corruption. Especially those who achive a position of power...we are easilly coerrupted
Just like the human race in Lord of the Rings ;)
Right on Anne. When I served during WW2 in the Pacific against the Japanese Empire a mortar shell hit close to me knocking me unconscious. It took the life of the person next to me but spared me. I prayed a lot during those battles and survived without being wounded. I don't know why my Lord & God spared me, but I continuously thanked Him for it. I agree, religious beliefs are very personal and no one chould be criticised for their views and beliefs.
No one should be criticised?
So if there was someone who believed you could actually jump 1000m in the air you couldn't criticise them for thinking or believing it even thought it is their personal belief?
I mean Mankind as whole throughout history in general, there are good and bad people but the nature of humans is one of corruption. Especially those who achive a position of power...we are easilly coerrupted
We are indeed easilly corrupted and religion makes us aware of this.
One of the great themes of religion is that we live in a fallen world.
Then what is a fallen world?
In the first place it is a metaphor for the tragic destiny confronting us all - we will all die but worse than that, is our awareness of this fact. Therefore we cannot but be aware of times fleeting wings bearing us all to the grave. Life on this planet could be one long anxiety attack!
And yet we also have the capacity for laughter and music and art and scientific discovery. Therefore the world is not necessarily a foulled up, fossil-filled charnal house built on hundreds of milliions of years of the endlessly repeated cycle of birth and death.
So it makes sense to concentrate on the joy of living even while knowing what's in store - worms!
I find that the fallen world hypothesis is useful in the extreme when it comes to taking the first tentative steps to making sense of where we find ourselves today
We may not have the answers but at least we can refine the questions. And that's a job that religion still does best.
redeyedtreefrog
15-Jul-09, 19:27
And so should Science be questioned, in fact everything is open so question in life.
The point in science is questioning things. Thats how it works.
"Science is based on whats observed, faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved."
If anyone can show me one example in the history of the world of a single theist who has been able to prove either empirically or logically the existence of a higher power with any consciousness or interest in the human race, or that can punish or reward humans based on their moral choices and that there is any reason other than fear to believe in any version of an afterlife, then I'll maybe think about starting to think about the existence of God as a genuine possibility.
And the question remains, who made God?
redeyedtreefrog
15-Jul-09, 19:35
As for religion being pointless. There are many people who suffer hardships in this life and the only thing that has gotten them through is the belief that there is a point to it all and that we should be learning through the experience.
I for one am such a person.
That's like saying
Well, there are many people who suffer hardships in this life and the only thing that has gotten them through is alcohol and drugs.
I for one am such a person.
The point in science is questioning things. Thats how it works.
"Science is based on whats observed, faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved."
If anyone can show me one example in the history of the world of a single theist who has been able to prove either empirically or logically the existence of a higher power with any consciousness or interest in the human race, or that can punish or reward humans based on their moral choices and that there is any reason other than fear to believe in any version of an afterlife, then I'll maybe think about starting to think about the existence of God as a genuine possibility.
And the question remains, who made God?\\
To answer your last question first: Who Made God? We dont know. God is a mystery. Attempts to apply human logic to the great Creator are bound to yeild not an answer but a silence. I would also point out that there have been many attempts to write a biography of God. All fail, as one would expect. Yet if we look at the Old Testament God is a nasty bit of work. Entire peoples - the Amalakites for example or the good folk from Sodom and Gomorrah become objects of genocide carried out by the chosen race.
So it should come not as a great surprise that God is quite prepared to have his only begotten son killed.
So what are we to make of all these thunderbolts and plagues and great floods?
One thing that strikes the reader immediatley is the virtual disappearance of God in the New Testament. Now we poor sinful creatures have to start putting to rights this dreadful mess caused by the rampaging GOD.
At this point I suggest that most of us would get off the bus. But for those of us who decide to complete the journey a new way of seeing the world develops.....
At this point I suggest that most of us would get off the bus. But for those of us who decide to complete the journey a new way of seeing the world develops.....
Perhaps you could elaborate a little.
redeyedtreefrog
15-Jul-09, 20:30
\\
To answer your last question first: Who Made God? We dont know. God is a mystery. Attempts to apply human logic to the great Creator are bound to yeild not an answer but a silence. I would also point out that there have been many attempts to write a biography of God. All fail, as one would expect. Yet if we look at the Old Testament God is a nasty bit of work. Entire peoples - the Amalakites for example or the good folk from Sodom and Gomorrah become objects of genocide carried out by the chosen race.
So it should come not as a great surprise that God is quite prepared to have his only begotten son killed.
So what are we to make of all these thunderbolts and plagues and great floods?
One thing that strikes the reader immediatley is the virtual disappearance of God in the New Testament. Now we poor sinful creatures have to start putting to rights this dreadful mess caused by the rampaging GOD.
At this point I suggest that most of us would get off the bus. But for those of us who decide to complete the journey a new way of seeing the world develops.....
So you're basically saying that the deluded druggie who came up with God didnt think it through properly and forgot to mention where the figment of his imagination came from?
Greetings, Gleeber.
I think I can put together a case for believing in a God.
Here we all are living on this little rock somewhere in the suburbs of the Milky Way.
There are two explanations as to how we got here.
One is we are here because God put us. The other is that we evolved along Darwinian lines from amino acids and bacteria etc etc and so on up the ever developing food chain.
I love Darwin. I think he is the greates intellect in the history of the world. I am not sure if he believed in God or was agnostic, I like to think he was too smart to be an atheist.
Nevertheless it is by challenging Darwin - or his more polemical disciples like Christpher Hitchins - that I must put together the case.
In Darwin's scheme of things small genetic changes - well some not so small! - produce new species. It is hard not to say "onwards and upwards" but that is precisely the wrong way of looking at evolution. The Triassic, the Jurassic and the Cretacious went on much longer than we have so far! So I dont think we can be looked on as very much more than a footnote to history, or to mega-history, or to meta-history....
OK but there is something about human beings that does seem to me to be utterly unique to us. (Forgive me if I have presented this argument before)
What makes is unique is our capacity for excess. Or, if you like, abundance. In Darwin's scheme a tiny change in environment or some misfiring on a chromosome results in change.
Consider geese. They are nicely evolved, they eat lots and excrete lots and when they mate they jump up and down hissing and squawking - other birds develop technicolor bottoms which they shake lasciviously. Now these birds may be around for the next few millenia or they may die off tomorrow. It's all in the luck of the draw. But it seems probable to me that the goose life will remain quite limited in terms of mating dances.
Look now at a human young man and woman with the nesting urge. They buy or rent and then - and here's the vital part - they go shopping for wallpaper. They will then have a choice of hundreds of thoudands of patterns - every shade and colour imaginable, patterns of Grecian urns, santa claus, pear trees, automobiles and trains, donald duck - you get the idea.
This is over and above what we need to evolve in Darwinian terms. What evolutionary advantages are to be gained by producing symphonies, multi-volume novels, the Mona Lisa, baroque architecture, the flintlock musket CDs, DVDs, the Caithness. org - I could go on...
So I think we human must have a little spark of something extra in us. In religious terms the effect this gives me is of a door opening, some far away and distant door, perhaps in another galaxy, but that's how I believe in God.
One final remark. I feel sorry for athiests. Look at what they dont get by not believing - they miss the whole world of art. Theirs is a failure of imagination. I think that is very sad
Aaldtimer
15-Jul-09, 21:13
Rich..."Look now at a human young man and woman with the nesting urge. They buy or rent and then - and here's the vital part - they go shopping for wallpaper. They will then have a choice of hundreds of thoudands of patterns - every shade and colour imaginable, patterns of Grecian urns, santa claus, pear trees, automobiles and trains, donald duck - you get the idea."...puts us just above the Bower Bird! :lol:
Aaldtimer:
I checked the sexual life of the Bower Bird. in Wikapedia. Seems a lot like the Dundee Palais de Dance in the late '60s. That was a place where anything could happen. But not enough to overturn my theory....
Aaldtimer:
I looked up the mating behaviour of the Bower Bird in Wikopedia. It sounds a lot like the Dundee Palais de Dance in the late 60s. That's a place where anything could happen. But not enough of it to affect my theory!
Aaldtimer
15-Jul-09, 21:31
Aaldtimer:
I looked up the mating behaviour of the Bower Bird in Wikopedia. It sounds a lot like the Dundee Palais de Dance in the late 60s. That's a place where anything could happen. But not enough of it to affect my theory!
I mind it weel enough Rich!
Not to mention the JM ;)
redeyedtreefrog
15-Jul-09, 21:31
That's, err, long.
I'm gonna start with Darwin: He was an atheist.
Humans are intelligent things (Some of us anyway:roll:), so I'm guessing that, by recognising patterns, our primitive ancestors could get more food, perhaps. If they noticed the pattern in which, say, footprints lead to edible things, they would have more food than, and out-compete, their tribal neighbours. A by-product of this might be the ability to create patterns. And as for creating nice things like symphonies and the Mona Lisa, there probably is an evolutionary advantage. But I'm no evolutionary psychologist. Ask one. I'd recommend Yahoo Answers (http://answers.yahoo.com).
Aye, that's good enough Rich.
I believe in that spark too but it's not necessarily from God. It does'nt have to be. I used to think it did but the more I feel it the more I realise its just something that's unique to human beings, like long tongues are to anteaters or wings to birds.
Unlike animals humans have different needs and live in a different world. The human world has 3 bits to it. Today, tomorrow and yesterday. Animals only have the moment. They dont worry about the rent or kids or cancer. Humans do and those thought processes create human emotions. Emotions usually need answers and God is one of the most powerful answers to satisfy any emotion.
Depending on where we are born, the Gods we worship will be associated with that particular culture and there's no doubt that most of those Gods are not really Gods but a projection of the particular cultures emotional and superstitious history.
Man created God in his own image so to speak.
I dont know whether Darwin was an atheist or not but I'm sure he realised, like me, that there no longer needs to be a God.
I dont feel sorry for atheists or God believers. I sometimes feel sorry for myself though. I envy those of you who have found a peg to hang your hats.
Does'nt mean your not all deluded though. ;)
No one should be criticised?
So if there was someone who believed you could actually jump 1000m in the air you couldn't criticise them for thinking or believing it even thought it is their personal belief?
If it was their personal belief - who are you to say it could not be done?
Aye,Unlike animals humans have different needs and live in a different world. The human world has 3 bits to it. Today, tomorrow and yesterday. Animals only have the moment. They don't worry about the rent or kids or cancer. Humans do and those thought processes create human emotions. Emotions usually need answers and God is one of the most powerful answers to satisfy any emotion.
. ;)
Yeah, but the question is why? If we are merely animated vegetable where did this consciousness come from? Why do we come from a different world if we came from animals? more intelligent I can buy, but where does emotion come from? Conscience? If we are merely more intelligent animals when did it change? Can anyone answer the most important question of all which is the eternal why?
(ignore me if you like - I've been on the wine)
oldmarine
16-Jul-09, 05:22
No one should be criticised?
So if there was someone who believed you could actually jump 1000m in the air you couldn't criticise them for thinking or believing it even thought it is their personal belief?
Frankly, I personally believe that to be a ridiculous statement. Whom are you trying to impress with this assinine statement? Re-examine my statement in my previous posting. It's obvious you have never been in a war zone coming close to losing your life.
:([disgust]
Yeah, but the question is why? If we are merely animated vegetable where did this consciousness come from? Why do we come from a different world if we came from animals? more intelligent I can buy, but where does emotion come from? Conscience? If we are merely more intelligent animals when did it change? Can anyone answer the most important question of all which is the eternal why?
(ignore me if you like - I've been on the wine)
Aye, it really is amazing. It's the same when I stop on the Ord on a dark night and just look up at the stars. Everythings in it's place, like a watch. How could all this be an accident?
Well, I happen to think it could have been. There was a time when I thought it could'nt have been. There must be a God. How else could all this be so?
Och, just open another bottle of wine. :)
Gleeber maybe you should grab a rooster next time you go out to the peat stack to take another bottle from your turf cellar.
Tell him that tomorrow has arrived and he is about to become coq au vin. See how he likes that!
Dividing animal consciousness into three seems to me an unwarrantable piece of human arrogance.
Take three eggs instead and try a souffle. Accompanied by a green salad (always assuming such a thing is available in Caithness) this will impress the women in your life no end especially when finished off with French Uposide Down Apple Pie. (Recipes available from Rich PO Box 1066 cheques and money orders accepted . Thank you!)
No one should be criticised?
So if there was someone who believed you could actually jump 1000m in the air you couldn't criticise them for thinking or believing it even thought it is their personal belief?
Yes but when people talk of their belief of or disbelief in God it is a subject which is out or our reach, human science can neither disprove or prove it.
It can however disprove our own ability to jump 1000m in the air on our own lump of rock.
However things like creation, miracles ect are definatly open to questioning and criticism given our current knowledge.
If you go back far enough men of mainstream science and religion both agreed that the world was flat and it was unthinkable to think otherwise.
The Universe is something that baffles us, there will always be a place for religion in the human race as long as we remain completly and utterly lost in this universe.
redeyedtreefrog
17-Jul-09, 20:20
Yes but when people talk of their belief of or disbelief in God it is a subject which is out or our reach, human science can neither disprove or prove it.
No, but we can show it's incredibly unlikely.
Phoebus_Apollo
18-Jul-09, 15:11
No, but we can show it's incredibly unlikely.
I agree - the big bang theory followed by evolution makes perfect sense and yet people still blindly goto the church and worship "god" (an omnipresent being - who created him??) in the belief that doing so will save their soul from the underworld...
WickWitch
18-Jul-09, 15:20
There had to be something before the big bang. Physics states that (in a vacuum) energy is neither created nor destroyed, it is merely transferred.
Love can't be quantified but most people believe in it.
I believe in God but she many not be the same as the next person's idea of God :D
Energy can be created, we as humans are doing it all the time, some create good some bad in saying that it cannot be destroyed but it can be transformed, so negative/dark energy can be changed into positive/light energy and sent to where its needed ie hospitals, people , places etc :Razz Love too is an energy the same as anger, fear, hatred, jealousy etc but the Love when we decide to change to that frequency cancels out all the rest and then we'll all be one big happy family on planet earth! :Razz One day maybe when we all stop asking so many questions about the whys and the wherefores and stop attacking and trying to lay blame on others and and just go with the flow! Apparently we are allowing our lizard brains to dictate the type of energy we create which is a low frequency and thats why there is so many wars etc when we raise our consciousness and go up a level or two and get above the lizard stuff then were on the road home! :Razz
Phoebus_Apollo
18-Jul-09, 17:02
Energy can be created, we as humans are doing it all the time, some create good some bad in saying that it cannot be destroyed but it can be transformed, so negative/dark energy can be changed into positive/light energy and sent to where its needed ie hospitals, people , places etc :Razz Love too is an energy the same as anger, fear, hatred, jealousy etc but the Love when we decide to change to that frequency cancels out all the rest and then we'll all be one big happy family on planet earth! :Razz One day maybe when we all stop asking so many questions about the whys and the wherefores and stop attacking and trying to lay blame on others and and just go with the flow! Apparently we are allowing our lizard brains to dictate the type of energy we create which is a low frequency and thats why there is so many wars etc when we raise our consciousness and go up a level or two and get above the lizard stuff then were on the road home! :Razz
A beautiful construct - somewhat marred by reailty!
redeyedtreefrog
18-Jul-09, 20:32
Energy can be created, we as humans are doing it all the time, some create good some bad in saying that it cannot be destroyed but it can be transformed, so negative/dark energy can be changed into positive/light energy and sent to where its needed ie hospitals, people , places etc :Razz Love too is an energy the same as anger, fear, hatred, jealousy etc but the Love when we decide to change to that frequency cancels out all the rest and then we'll all be one big happy family on planet earth! :Razz One day maybe when we all stop asking so many questions about the whys and the wherefores and stop attacking and trying to lay blame on others and and just go with the flow! Apparently we are allowing our lizard brains to dictate the type of energy we create which is a low frequency and thats why there is so many wars etc when we raise our consciousness and go up a level or two and get above the lizard stuff then were on the road home! :Razz
Do you have the slightest grip on reality?
Reality???? What's that????? :Razz None of this is for real anyway and if you think it is redeyedtreefrog your in for a wee bit of a shock one day! :Razz and I'll bet you I have a better grip on it than you have! :Razz
redeyedtreefrog
19-Jul-09, 00:32
Reality???? What's that????? :Razz None of this is for real anyway and if you think it is redeyedtreefrog your in for a wee bit of a shock one day! :Razz and I'll bet you I have a better grip on it than you have! :Razz
All thats missing is "heeheeheehee..." at the end
David Banks
19-Jul-09, 03:42
Religion can and should be questioned.
Religion becomes the dangerous weapon it is when we accept Religious beliefs as a Grail that cannot be deviated from or questioned.
To my mind, a Religion that cannot be questioned is a Cult!
There are many branches of Philosophy, many of which are topics that will constantly be questioned as mans understanding of the world and life changes and adapts.
And that's as life should be.
I have heard that a majority of philosophers agree that philosophy deals with three basic problems:
-the problem if knowledge (what can we as individuals really know)
- the problem of (individual) conduct and
- the problem of governance
What's missing ?
Cedric Farthsbottom III
19-Jul-09, 23:12
Aye, it really is amazing. It's the same when I stop on the Ord on a dark night and just look up at the stars. Everythings in it's place, like a watch. How could all this be an accident?
Well, I happen to think it could have been. There was a time when I thought it could'nt have been. There must be a God. How else could all this be so?
Och, just open another bottle of wine. :)
Done that many time myself.Sitting out on a park bench in Edinburgh,just off the Forth Railway Bridge.Looking up at the stars,admiring the wealth of the universe upon me.A policeman and a policewoman,came up to me and asked if I was okay.I told them I was fine,they both turned and left.I heard the policeman say,"thats a nutter".Am I?Really?I would say half my good friends believe in God,the other half believe in what I do.:D
No, but we can show it's incredibly unlikely.
Show us please?
I agree - the big bang theory followed by evolution makes perfect sense and yet people still blindly goto the church and worship "god" (an omnipresent being - who created him??) in the belief that doing so will save their soul from the underworld...
I'm sorry but evoloution and the big bang theory dont actually dissprove the exsistance of God or God's
Religion maybe, but not the exsistance of God's
Phoebus_Apollo
20-Jul-09, 12:39
I'm sorry but evoloution and the big bang theory dont actually dissprove the exsistance of God or God's
Religion maybe, but not the exsistance of God's
I think the "existance of God`s" is (in itself) an quasi-oxymoronic term - true we cannot disprove the existance of this so-called omnipresent diety and yet conversly we cannot prove the existance of God. But the belief that rationally we are all under the watchful eye of an omnipresent being at all times - just does not hold any water for me.
It seems that from a logical point of view the scientific reasonings for our existance hold more sway with me - because simply put they make more sense than an entire race being molded out of clay!!
I think the "existance of God`s" is (in itself) an quasi-oxymoronic term - true we cannot disprove the existance of this so-called omnipresent diety and yet conversly we cannot prove the existance of God. But the belief that rationally we are all under the watchful eye of an omnipresent being at all times - just does not hold any water for me.
It seems that from a logical point of view the scientific reasonings for our existance hold more sway with me - because simply put they make more sense than an entire race being molded out of clay!!
I know what you mean, but not everyone believes in that now outdated way of looking at creation. I think it's fair to say that a god creating the world and all the things in it is extremly unlikely
But stripping it down to it's bare roots the question for me personally is was the big bang a pure accident or was it sparked on purpose to create the universe that we now live in .... and if the latter then by what or whom? We have no knowledge of what exsisted before the universe and if there was nothing then how can something come from nothing.... it's all rather mind boggling!
In my opinion I dont think it's a question we can really answer right now.
But stripping it down to it's bare roots the question for me personally is was the big bang a pure accident or was it sparked on purpose to create the universe that we now live in .... and if the latter then by what or whom? We have no knowledge of what exsisted before the universe and if there was nothing then how can something come from nothing.... it's all rather mind boggling!
In my opinion I dont think it's a question we can really answer right now.
this is the most sensible answer yet. I don't think it is a question that will be ever answered - at least not in this world.
Phoebus_Apollo
20-Jul-09, 16:13
I know what you mean, but not everyone believes in that now outdated way of looking at creation. I think it's fair to say that a god creating the world and all the things in it is extremly unlikely
But stripping it down to it's bare roots the question for me personally is was the big bang a pure accident or was it sparked on purpose to create the universe that we now live in .... and if the latter then by what or whom? We have no knowledge of what exsisted before the universe and if there was nothing then how can something come from nothing.... it's all rather mind boggling!
In my opinion I dont think it's a question we can really answer right now.
I can see where you are coming from too - and perhaps the question is outwith the realms of this universe (literally!!) and this forum but it does pose some interesting existential questions (what is the meaning of life?? etc) which if anything open up new doors of thought perception.
But without veering too far from the orginal topic I still opt for the Scientific view.
There are many of us who believe that this reality is, in fact, a virtual reality or holographic projection and we have no existance outside of that virtual reality. As science sees smaller and smaller particles, there is a belief that ultimately we will find that there is, in fact, nothing here at all.
Question then is, who built and programmed the compter and who booted up this game we call life?
redeyedtreefrog
20-Jul-09, 20:24
Show us please?
I didn't mean we can do it that well right now, but think about this:
If extraterrestrials are found, it would show God as incredibly unlikely.
There are 1 billion planets in the galaxy. (Estimates range from 1bn to 30bn)
There are 1 billion galaxies in the universe.
Therefore, there are 1 billion billion planets in the universe.
The chance of a planet being inhabited by an intelligent species is 1 in a billion.
So 1 billion planets should have life.
And assuming you are a mainstream Christian, you believe the following:
About two thousand years ago, a man was born to a virgin with no father involved.
The fatherless man raised a friend, who had been dead long enough to stink, back to life.
The fatherless man himself came back from the dead after being locked, dead, in a tomb for three days.
A few weeks later, the fatherless man stood atop a hill and disappeared into the sky.
If you murmur thoughts privately inside your head, the fatherless man and his "father" (Who is himself) will hear them and do something about it.
The fatherless man sees everything you do wherever you are, and he punishes or rewards you accordingly.
Bread and wine blessed by a priest become the body and blood of the fatherless man.
Don't you think it sounds a bit ridiculous?
Lolabelle
20-Jul-09, 20:32
That can easily be achieved without having to submit to 'faith' and religion. :roll:
Absolutely, religion is just man's take on God as far as I can see, (opposed to God's take on God). And we are given a measure of faith when we believe. We can build on that measure.
I've asked more questions and had more answers since I decided to accept God's invitation for a personal relationship with him. Not a religious go between in sight. :D
There are many of us who believe that this reality is, in fact, a virtual reality or holographic projection and we have no existance outside of that virtual reality. As science sees smaller and smaller particles, there is a belief that ultimately we will find that there is, in fact, nothing here at all.
Question then is, who built and programmed the compter and who booted up this game we call life?
Life a holographic game? :confused
How is that possible when as we go through life with joy in our children, anguish at losing the ones we love, determination to acheive our goals, anger, abuse, fear, courage etc?
If life is a computer program then why do we reproduce and put such hard work in raising our children or put hard work in getting what we want out of life?
A holographoc game as life just doesn't seem possbile or even a possible thought on life and how we were created. it doesn't make sense.
Touch of the Matrix there Gleeber2 i think.
Wish i could find the reboot button...[lol]
Touch of the Matrix there Gleeber2 i think.
Wish i could find the reboot button...[lol]
Oi, That's Gleber2 not gleeber.
I wish to disassociate myself from such nonsense. Mind you it makes as much sense as some of the other ideas on here. [lol]
I think the "existance of God`s" is (in itself) an quasi-oxymoronic term - true we cannot disprove the existance of this so-called omnipresent diety and yet conversly we cannot prove the existance of God. But the belief that rationally we are all under the watchful eye of an omnipresent being at all times - just does not hold any water for me.
It seems that from a logical point of view the scientific reasonings for our existance hold more sway with me - because simply put they make more sense than an entire race being molded out of clay!!
Please - what is a quasi-oxymoron? Is like being half-pregnant?
Life a holographic game? :confused
How is that possible when as we go through life with joy in our children, anguish at losing the ones we love, determination to acheive our goals, anger, abuse, fear, courage etc?
If life is a computer program then why do we reproduce and put such hard work in raising our children or put hard work in getting what we want out of life?
Because that's what we sims are programmed to do[evil].
Oi, That's Gleber2 not gleeber.
I wish to disassociate myself from such nonsense. Mind you it makes as much sense as some of the other ideas on here. [lol]
Apologies there Gleeber,the spelling mistake I'm afraid, was due to the emergence of differing realities and time shifting through the very fabric of the space time continuum as we know/knew/will know it which does tend to confuse from time as you know/knew/preview it to time as we may/may not know/knew/will know??(as you well know,common knowledge that)[lol]
Or i pressed the wrong button an didnae check make workings..who knows...you decide..ha ha
Touch of the Matrix there Gleeber2 i think.
Wish i could find the reboot button...[lol]
The Hindu belief in the Maya state came long before the Matrix as did my own thoughts on the subject. Won't be a reboot this time round!!! Last life, last game!!!
I cannot think of a stranger combination than Gleeber and myself. Gleeber2 could never exist. Mind you, in the infinite multiverse, all things are possible.
The Hindu belief in the Maya state came long before the Matrix as did my own thoughts on the subject. Won't be a reboot this time round!!! Last life, last game!!!
I cannot think of a stranger combination than Gleeber and myself. Gleeber2 could never exist.
Maybies yer right?
But there's always a last minute,million to one chance,that there is a new game on the shelves of life!
I didn't mean we can do it that well right now, but think about this:
If extraterrestrials are found, it would show God as incredibly unlikely.
There are 1 billion planets in the galaxy. (Estimates range from 1bn to 30bn)
There are 1 billion galaxies in the universe.
Therefore, there are 1 billion billion planets in the universe.
The chance of a planet being inhabited by an intelligent species is 1 in a billion.
So 1 billion planets should have life.
And assuming you are a mainstream Christian, you believe the following:
About two thousand years ago, a man was born to a virgin with no father involved.
The fatherless man raised a friend, who had been dead long enough to stink, back to life.
The fatherless man himself came back from the dead after being locked, dead, in a tomb for three days.
A few weeks later, the fatherless man stood atop a hill and disappeared into the sky.
If you murmur thoughts privately inside your head, the fatherless man and his "father" (Who is himself) will hear them and do something about it.
The fatherless man sees everything you do wherever you are, and he punishes or rewards you accordingly.
Bread and wine blessed by a priest become the body and blood of the fatherless man.
Don't you think it sounds a bit ridiculous?
Well im not really intrested in the various ways religion interprete their god (s) but im looking at the possibility of the exsistance of God or God's from a scientific standpoint, the key point is not if life is replicated but if intelligent life is replicated.
This may be off topic but are you trying to say that Jesus is imaginary? You have to remember religion does not get made up out of nothing, there was certainly a man at least kicking about 2000 years ago who stirred up alot of trouble preaching and collecting followers and was deemed a threat to the traditional way of Jewish teaching.. so much so he was executed and in the aftermath a new Religion came about which was eventually adopted by the decaying Roman Empire.
Also worth remembering that Julius Ceaser, Cleopatra, Alexander the Great ect lived hundreads of years before Jesus, there is not one historian that would argue that Jesus did not exsist.... whether his claims that he was the son of god are true or not is a totally different matter and argument and is one for the theologians.
Dont get me wrong, im not defending religion, im just open to the fact thier may be a God or Creator of the universe because I just cant disprove it.
Aaldtimer
21-Jul-09, 03:15
Flashman, I don't think anyone denies the existence of a Jesus Christ, but he never claimed to be the Son of God.
That is words in the Bible, a book written by men who came hundreds of years after the life of JC.
Allegedly from writings of his contemporaries.
NOT the word of God as some would have you believe.
JC was a fervent Jew.
The RC church was an invention of Paul of Damascus.
I didn't mean we can do it that well right now, but think about this:
If extraterrestrials are found, it would show God as incredibly unlikely.
There are 1 billion planets in the galaxy. (Estimates range from 1bn to 30bn)
There are 1 billion galaxies in the universe.
Therefore, there are 1 billion billion planets in the universe.
The chance of a planet being inhabited by an intelligent species is 1 in a billion.
So 1 billion planets should have life.
And assuming you are a mainstream Christian, you believe the following:
About two thousand years ago, a man was born to a virgin with no father involved.
The fatherless man raised a friend, who had been dead long enough to stink, back to life.
The fatherless man himself came back from the dead after being locked, dead, in a tomb for three days.
A few weeks later, the fatherless man stood atop a hill and disappeared into the sky.
If you murmur thoughts privately inside your head, the fatherless man and his "father" (Who is himself) will hear them and do something about it.
The fatherless man sees everything you do wherever you are, and he punishes or rewards you accordingly.
Bread and wine blessed by a priest become the body and blood of the fatherless man.
Don't you think it sounds a bit ridiculous?
Who's to say God is not an extraterrestrial? Who's to say we are not an experiment? the arc of god that moses carried with him sure sounds like a transmitting device.
Such a superior intelligence would have ways of making a virgin pregnant - I mean aren't we going down that road now? and as for JC also being god - well i could never get my head round that one. The bible says he is the son of god - some one please tell me where it actually says he IS god? Didn't he pray to his father in heaven? how could he pray to himself?
Too masny questions and not enough answers will just drive you mad.
The RC church was an invention of Paul of Damascus.
Not quite. The RC church was invented by Constantine circa 320AD using the Pauline Doctrine as its base.
David Banks
21-Jul-09, 11:30
There are many of us who believe that this reality is, in fact, a virtual reality or holographic projection and we have no existance outside of that virtual reality. As science sees smaller and smaller particles, there is a belief that ultimately we will find that there is, in fact, nothing here at all.
Question then is, who built and programmed the compter and who booted up this game we call life?
The thread seems to be splitting into (at least) two separate threads, and I would like to follow gleber2's views.
In a later message, you say something like "because that's what we sims are programmed to do."
(I have to learn how to use multiple quotes)
You seem to be saying that we are all programmed, and have no free will or ability to make choices in our lives. That means that we are "off the hook," "free and clear," no hell for us (if there is one) - we can do whatever we like, because it is all our programmer's fault.
Have I got your point correct ?
Flashman, I don't think anyone denies the existence of a Jesus Christ, but he never claimed to be the Son of God.
That is words in the Bible, a book written by men who came hundreds of years after the life of JC.
Allegedly from writings of his contemporaries.
NOT the word of God as some would have you believe.
JC was a fervent Jew.
The RC church was an invention of Paul of Damascus.
I'm no theologist but I thought that the son of god claim was something that was present in the very early gospels and one of the main reasons he caused such a stir and was executed upon entering Jerusalem.
I dont know though that's part guesswork, the son of god claim if not from Jesus himself was I thought at least came from his direct followers after his death
David Banks
21-Jul-09, 12:01
Flashman, I don't think anyone denies the existence of a Jesus Christ, but he never claimed to be the Son of God.
That is words in the Bible, a book written by men who came hundreds of years after the life of JC.
Allegedly from writings of his contemporaries.
NOT the word of God as some would have you believe.
JC was a fervent Jew.
The RC church was an invention of Paul of Damascus.
JC was a fervent Jew, and also a 1st century Jewish apocalypticist.
Did you intend to refer to Paul of Tarsus, who did have an "experience" on the road to Damascus? He also was a Jewish apocalypticist -- who believed that they lived in an evil time, but that some day soon (the time kept changing) god would intervene and bring in his new kingdom.
JC was a fervent Jew, and also a 1st century Jewish apocalypticist.
Did you intend to refer to Paul of Tarsus, who did have an "experience" on the road to Damascus? He also was a Jewish apocalypticist -- who believed that they lived in an evil time, but that some day soon (the time kept changing) god would intervene and bring in his new kingdom.
the jews are still waiting for that to happen
Phoebus_Apollo
21-Jul-09, 12:05
Please - what is a quasi-oxymoron? Is like being half-pregnant?
It`s a term coined by Prof Warren Blumfield - its means a sarcastic / foolish self contradiction in a figure of speech.
The thread seems to be splitting into (at least) two separate threads, and I would like to follow gleber2's views.
In a later message, you say something like "because that's what we sims are programmed to do."
(I have to learn how to use multiple quotes)
You seem to be saying that we are all programmed, and have no free will or ability to make choices in our lives. That means that we are "off the hook," "free and clear," no hell for us (if there is one) - we can do whatever we like, because it is all our programmer's fault.
Have I got your point correct ?
We get a PC preprogrammed when we buy it, however, after we begin to use it, most errors are caused by what we put onto the hard drive. After birth, with the program loaded, we then have free will to play by the Christian rules or make our own decisions about what is right or wrong.
Click the inverted coma's beside the Quote button on each post you want to quote. and that shoul give you multiple quotes.:)
We get a PC preprogrammed when we buy it, however, after we begin to use it, most errors are caused by what we put onto the hard drive. After birth, with the program loaded, we then have free will to play by the Christian rules or make our own decisions about what is right or wrong.
Not quite how it works Gleber2.
We get our PC pre-programmed by the creator (God), in this case Microsoft, only to realise that Microsoft are crap at programming. We then set about replacing the software with that created by mere men. Strangely, this independent merchandise, made by mortals, is superior to that which is bundled by standard. Like religion, some slavishly insist on using the Microsoft crap, also like religion, you cannot erase all traces of the cack software because they have created an unbreakable link with your PC to prevent such an attempt.
I will agree though:-
"Gary Glitter, your hard drive has sinned!!"
Phoebus_Apollo
21-Jul-09, 12:26
We get a PC preprogrammed when we buy it, however, after we begin to use it, most errors are caused by what we put onto the hard drive. After birth, with the program loaded, we then have free will to play by the Christian rules or make our own decisions about what is right or wrong.
Click the inverted coma's beside the Quote button on each post you want to quote. and that shoul give you multiple quotes.:)
"Free Will" in itself is an illusionary concept - are we really "free"? - on a literal level we may believe we are but on an underlying level most humans are part of a hierarchy of some sort - controlled without knowing it.
Not quite how it works Gleber2.
We get our PC pre-programmed by the creator (God), in this case Microsoft, only to realise that Microsoft are crap at programming. We then set about replacing the software with that created by mere men. Strangely, this independent merchandise, made by mortals, is superior to that which is bundled by standard. Like religion, some slavishly insist on using the Microsoft crap, also like religion, you cannot erase all traces of the cack software because they have created an unbreakable link with your PC to prevent such an attempt.
I will agree though:-
"Gary Glitter, your hard drive has sinned!!"
True, but I have had PC' totally stop working due to badly programmed software created by man. Religion, per se, is a virus which incapacites the human computer form moment of entry.
"Free Will" in itself is an illusionary concept - are we really "free"? - on a literal level we may believe we are but on an underlying level most humans are part of a hierarchy of some sort - controlled without knowing it.
Acceptance of the fact that we are conditioned beings and acknowledging the fact that we can do something about post-natal conditioning can lead to a clearing of the conscious mind which allows a certain ammount of free will but it is, I believe, impossible to remove pre-natal programming and what we are and what we become is curtailed by this subconcsious imprint although Scientology would disagree with me on this point.
The theologian Hans Kung writes about the "scandal" of Christianity and the scandalized are certainly lined up on this thread. Interestingly the scandalized are the athiests.
I think a day without extracting some indignation from scandalized atheism is indeed a day without sunshine (as the old orange juice ads would have it!).
But it is like shooting fish in a barrel.
My scandalized friends, what you have to realise is that the existence or otherwise of God is a theological question. Counting the number of planets in the Milky Way, or discovering that Church dignitaries are sometimes corrupt (my favorite being Pope Joan, an English lass, I believe) or that in the Middle Ages being a priest was a job handed down from father to son, or that the relics of the Cross lined up would would pave the road from John O Groats to Land's End - all of this fodder for scandal is irrelevant.
True religious belief is built on the personal - not the institutional.
I'd also like to reply to some of the critics of religion who are condemning it as being a cause of bloodshed and war. The greatest cause of bloodshed and war - since the French Revolution - has been nationalism and socialism. What did religion have to do with the First World War, the Second World War, Hiroshima, Dresden, Auschwitz etc etc etc?
That was not God's work. That was mankind's work.
You need to remember that. Try to understand the times in which we live. Become aware of the horrors to which materialism unbridled leads. And then look to the alternative.
Because frankly, you are not yet making the best of your (God-given?) intelligence.
We get a PC preprogrammed when we buy it, however, after we begin to use it, most errors are caused by what we put onto the hard drive. After birth, with the program loaded, we then have free will to play by the Christian rules or make our own decisions about what is right or wrong.
Click the inverted coma's beside the Quote button on each post you want to quote. and that shoul give you multiple quotes.:)
or which direction we want to go. sometimes, without guidance, people are confused about what exactly is right or wrong.
Life is like a game of cards. We can't help the hand we've been dealt, but we can help the way we play them.
Although fascinating as a tool for the enquiring mind -thats all philospohy is - an intellectual tool. It enable us to disect and compare.
Religion is also a tool - An emotional / spiritual tool. It provides a narrative of hope and continuity in our brief spell in a chaotic world.
In trying to understand our existance and detemine that path that we wish to follow we can use both.
Philsophy examaines the chaos that immediately surrounds us and helps us to identify where we are right now - but it cant give us any inspiration as to where we should be going to from here. Since it offers no direction - it doesn't qualify as progressive.
Religion is unable to offer much help in analyising the storm of complex and contradictory events that engulf us - but it does offer a vision - a direction that we can aim for.
Offering humanity a vision that promotes such noble aspirations as -
Treat others as you would have them treat you
Materialism wont bring happiness
Dont kill
- seems to a far more reasonable / rational and progressive proposition.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
21-Jul-09, 20:12
Live life to religion and you will live.
Live life to philosophy and questions and you will live.
There's no difference.
God to one person,is like friends and family to me.Both end up with positive conclusions.My friends who believe in God are still as dear to me as those who don't.I'm going to burn in hell because I don't believe in God,really,c'mon I like a barbecue like the rest.
Phoebus_Apollo
21-Jul-09, 20:24
Although fascinating as a tool for the enquiring mind -thats all philospohy is - an intellectual tool. It enable us to disect and compare.
Religion is also a tool - An emotional / spiritual tool. It provides a narrative of hope and continuity in our brief spell in a chaotic world.
In trying to understand our existance and detemine that path that we wish to follow we can use both.
Philsophy examaines the chaos that immediately surrounds us and helps us to identify where we are right now - but it cant give us any inspiration as to where we should be going to from here. Since it offers no direction - it doesn't qualify as progressive.
Religion is unable to offer much help in analyising the storm of complex and contradictory events that engulf us - but it does offer a vision - a direction that we can aim for.
Offering humanity a vision that promotes such noble aspirations as -
Treat others as you would have them treat you
Materialism wont bring happiness
Dont kill
- seems to a far more reasonable / rational and progressive proposition.
A moot point - but if atheism is the "religion" of logic which in itself is a minefield of contradictions and religion cannot answer it offers only rhetoric and a propitious moral code and philosophy sits in the middle ground as a rational tool for intellectual understanding of underlying form.
Where does that leave us??I think we are hindered by our own limitations of understanding, we need a forth dimension of lateral understanding – we literally have to see infinity.
No. 3 and No. 2 tend to blend into each other. I would prefer to lump them together as "the problem of human nature."
As for No. 1, that's Plato isn't it? To whom all other philosophers are mere footnotes....
Cedric Farthsbottom III
21-Jul-09, 20:35
No. 3 and No. 2 tend to blend into each other. I would prefer to lump them together as "the problem of human nature."
As for No. 1, that's Plato isn't it? To whom all other philosophers are mere footnotes....
Plato is the philosopher and other philosophers are footnotes,rubbish.Intellectual rubbish.Ye say Plato,I say Billy Connolly,Frankie Boyle and of course Lee Evans,British philosophers still living and telling their philosophies of life.
A moot point - but if atheism is the "religion" of logic which in itself is a minefield of contradictions and religion cannot answer it offers only rhetoric and a propitious moral code and philosophy sits in the middle ground as a rational tool for intellectual understanding of underlying form.
Where does that leave us??I think we are hindered by our own limitations of understanding, we need a forth dimension of lateral understanding – we literally have to see infinity.
I disagree - we are not limited by our own limitations of understanding at all.
There can be no complete understanding of anything - to have a complete understanding would require a clockwork universe in which all aspects were driven by discernable cause and effect.
If everything is predetermined - there would not be any place for free will - (or people who are just completely bonkers).
Even observing the universe is problematic - this contradiction is evident in the pure physics - the closer you try to observe any event - the more the act of observation influence the outcome.
Religion at least has the honesty to say that what ever your beliefs - you have to accept them as a matter of faith.
CFIII it was not I who said philosophy was a footnote to Plato. See below!
A.N. Whitehead (Alfred North Whitehead) was a widely influential twentieth century philosopher and mathematician. He is responsible for coining the following celebrated quote about Plato's enduring influence.
The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato.
Alfred North Whitehead, Process and Reality, p. 39 [Free Press, 1979];
If nothing else this thread proves to me that those who philosophise are so far up their own backsides that no light can get in and those who religisise are so far up someone elses backside that no light can get out, and that includes poor old Pluto. :eek:
Phoebus_Apollo
22-Jul-09, 10:50
I disagree - we are not limited by our own limitations of understanding at all.
There can be no complete understanding of anything - to have a complete understanding would require a clockwork universe in which all aspects were driven by discernable cause and effect.
If everything is predetermined - there would not be any place for free will - (or people who are just completely bonkers).
Even observing the universe is problematic - this contradiction is evident in the pure physics - the closer you try to observe any event - the more the act of observation influence the outcome.
Religion at least has the honesty to say that what ever your beliefs - you have to accept them as a matter of faith.
Our understanding does limit us - how for example can you explain infinity? Sure you can give it a descriptive meaning - but you cannot perceive the concept of infinity as it creates an endless feedback loop in the minds eye. Analysis at a quantum level does create many contradictions that is true and a forth/fifth dimensional mathematical understanding is sometimes required to comprehend these events...but to return to the OP - Religion might offer some type of solace to the masses but it offers little more.
If nothing else this thread proves to me that those who philosophise are so far up their own backsides that no light can get in and those who religisise are so far up someone elses backside that no light can get out, and that includes poor old Pluto. :eek:
You are of the former I believe?
redeyedtreefrog
22-Jul-09, 19:04
Well im not really intrested in the various ways religion interprete their god (s) but im looking at the possibility of the exsistance of God or God's from a scientific standpoint, the key point is not if life is replicated but if intelligent life is replicated.
This may be off topic but are you trying to say that Jesus is imaginary? You have to remember religion does not get made up out of nothing, there was certainly a man at least kicking about 2000 years ago who stirred up alot of trouble preaching and collecting followers and was deemed a threat to the traditional way of Jewish teaching.. so much so he was executed and in the aftermath a new Religion came about which was eventually adopted by the decaying Roman Empire.
Also worth remembering that Julius Ceaser, Cleopatra, Alexander the Great ect lived hundreads of years before Jesus, there is not one historian that would argue that Jesus did not exsist.... whether his claims that he was the son of god are true or not is a totally different matter and argument and is one for the theologians.
Dont get me wrong, im not defending religion, im just open to the fact thier may be a God or Creator of the universe because I just cant disprove it.
No, JC definitely existed, no doubt, he just wasn't magic, born of a virgin or God. He was just an exceptionally inspirational bloke, and got a bit exaggerated over time. As for when you say "the key point is not if life is replicated but if intelligent life is replicated. ", i said about the chance of intelligent life in my post.
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