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View Full Version : Why Ben? (Kinsella)



percy toboggan
11-Jun-09, 19:37
Why indeed. His Father read a statement outside the court. Guilty verdicts reached so we can talk about it now. Crowds thronged in an earlier demo with banners asking 'Why Ben?' He describe Ben's killers as 'animals'.

Kinsella was just sixteen, his only crime was he's been out drinking. Someone else got into a fight and before long three crazed murderers were looking for revenge. Once more the streets of London were stained with blood. The CCTV images of Ben, stabbed ,dazed and dying wandering across the street were strikingly clear for a change.

Just another statistic I suppose. When a certain section of society is prone to carrying blades and happy to 'shank' to maintain credibility, street status and justify their own twisted versions of manhood the numbers will rise...and rise.

Carrying a knife should attract a three year mimimum prison sentence. Using it to threaten should result in ten years custody - no parole.
Agree?

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/apr2009/7/2/defendants-in-ben-kinsella-trial-pic-pa-125944113.jpg

scorrie
11-Jun-09, 19:57
Why indeed. His Father read a statement outside the court. Guilty verdicts reached so we can talk about it now. Crowds thronged in an earlier demo with banners asking 'Why Ben?' He describe Ben's killers as 'animals'.

Kinsella was just sixteen, his only crime was he's been out drinking. Someone else got into a fight and before long three crazed murderers were looking for revenge. Once more the streets of London were stained with blood. The CCTV images of Ben, stabbed ,dazed and dying wandering across the street were strikingly clear for a change.

Just another statistic I suppose. When a certain section of society is prone to carrying blades and happy to 'shank' to maintain credibility, street status and justify their own twisted versions of manhood the numbers will rise...and rise.

Carrying a knife should attract a three year mimimum prison sentence. Using it to threaten should result in ten years custody - no parole.
Agree?

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/apr2009/7/2/defendants-in-ben-kinsella-trial-pic-pa-125944113.jpg

Those convicted were scum, no doubt about it. I agree that knife crime needs to be more heavily punished.

I would ask though, where our society has taken itself, when an apparently fine lad, from a seemingly good family, is out drinking in the wee small hours when aged only 16?

Reporters talked about a reluctance on the part of witnesses. How many may have been loathe to come forward because they might have been under-age themselves?

Kids, alcohol and knives is a dangerous mix.

percy toboggan
11-Jun-09, 20:01
You are right about teenage boozing Scorrie. The Parents sound a bit remiss here. Too many Mums and Dads follow the line of least resistance...and too many take the out of sight out of mind approach.

brandy
11-Jun-09, 21:23
how many of our own children here in wick are out at the weekends drinking away at age 13-16 years of age?
has anyone actually took the time to look around them on a friday night?
the majority of people you see out on the streets on a friday and sat night are way to young to be out at all.. go stand outside a shop and listen to them talk.. 14 year old lassies bragging about who they are sleeping with, how drunk they were, not knowing where they woke up..
the boys strutting and going on about what they have done, who they have done, and who they are going to go after next.
its a sad state that they are proud of their accomplishments of sleeping around, drinking themselves sick and into a stupor and then giggles and whispers when one of them end up in hospital from alcohol posioning or date rape drugs.
its our jobs as parents to make sure our children are safe.. we cant keep them in once they are grown, and we cant protect them once they have flown the nest.. but we can teach them right from wrong. we can show them thru example, keep them safe while they are children and hope and pray once they are adults that theymake the right choices.
the little things lead to big things... im sure at one point the mothers of the murdering so and so's would never have thought that thier children would have ever done such a horrible thing, and that the parents of the victims never thought that a bit of fun on a sat night would end in tragedy.
sorry didnt mean to rant but its just something i have been noticing a lot of latley..
and something i worry about for the future..

percy toboggan
12-Jun-09, 08:38
With respect even the wildest streets of Wick are a million miles from the kind of killing culture we have in places like Glasgow and London.

I know where you are coming from and ultimately bad parenting - or non-existent parenting is to blame. Absent Fathers in particular have questions to answer. Emotional poverty though is no excuse for the kind of murderous actions we are now becoming used to.

You paint a grim picture Brandy but surely this is a tiny minoroity of kids - or am I totally out of date ? Fill me in please.

brandy
12-Jun-09, 09:01
unfortunatly, i dont think its a tiny minority of kids. i dont know if its a majority of kids or what the stats are, but it is not a few bad seeds here and there.
its kids that you think .. thier good kids, a lot from good family's that are going wild.
we are not in league with the big citys per say, but if you think of our population to theirs. we have 7 and a half thousand people total in wick. yet every weekend we have violent crime. there is not a week goes by that ive not heard of someones windows being put in, of someone being beaten down the street. teenage squabbes turning into out right dragdown brawls. vandalism in the paper on a daily basis.
how many parents on the org. have complained of bullying?
how many chidren have been moved from the school they are in to get them away from other kids they are afraid of?
this is a real issue and a huge concern.
when do we stop saying.. kids will be kids..
and drunks fight..
when someone dies?
thats already happened...
how long do we turn a blind eye?
when the elderly are afraid to leave thier houses after dark?
already there..
when people have their houses and windows pelted with eggs and mud and stones.. and every day occurance.. just fun and games..
i couldnt tell you how many times ive seen little ole wifeys bent over, scrubbing windows that have been pelted with eggs.
how many doors have been kicked in.. or windows smashed, or cars vandalised.
just kids being bored i guess.
and the sad truth is... no one can or will do anything.. what proof do you have?
i have been told many times... its worse if you call the police because then the whole lot of em, will come down on you.. all your windows will be put in.. they will get you when your out.. what kind of town are we living in people?
does the laws not stand for anything anymore?
these are all young people that are behind this as well.
so yes it is bad. would be interested to go thru the court pages and see how much crime has been commited in the past year. and how much it has risen over the past decade.
look at the ages of the ones up in court in the papers.. lots and lots of 16-18 year olds.. and just remember the younger ones do not go into the paper.
i know of several primary kids that get taken home by the police quite a few times.
still running loose and doing what ever they want.
so as the adults what do we do?

joxville
12-Jun-09, 09:25
With respect even the wildest streets of Wick are a million miles from the kind of killing culture we have in places like Glasgow and London.

I know where you are coming from and ultimately bad parenting - or non-existent parenting is to blame. Absent Fathers in particular have questions to answer. Emotional poverty though is no excuse for the kind of murderous actions we are now becoming used to.

You paint a grim picture Brandy but surely this is a tiny minoroity of kids - or am I totally out of date ? Fill me in please.

I presume you mean absent fathers in the sense of no contact at all?

I may be 700 miles from my son but I still take as much involvement as possible in his upbringing, calling him 2 or 3 times per week, and I back up my ex-wife if she has grounded him for some reason-he knows he's on to a loser if he whinges to me about his mother being tough on him ([lol]).

So far, between us, we seem to have done a good job with his upbringing, telling him of the dangers of present day life in general-drugs, alcohol, smoking etc. so hopefully he'll stay level headed into adulthood.

percy toboggan
12-Jun-09, 20:51
Not really - I mean absent.
Although there are degrees of absence and 700 miles seems a long way to me, but it's not for me to criticise you via the internet, or via anywhere else really , and that's not what this thread is about....unless you want to start an argument.

The cultures of knife killing and absent fatherhood are common denominators in certain sections of society - we all know what I'm talking about but I can't be bothered attracting flak from the usual quarters.

Murders like these will carry on happening and the prisons will keep filling up.

I've reached the conclusion that these murderers and their ilk should face the death penalty. They are not 'animals' as described...the are savages' and have no place in a civilised society.

The only practical way to reduce their numbers is to work over a generation and more with early intervention - aggressive kids can be spotted at six or seven and if the parents (or lack of 'em) tick other negative boxes then resources should be spent in trying to turn them around.

Fly
12-Jun-09, 23:57
I object to these killers etc being called "animals". No animal behaves in the way they do and to call these "scum of the earth" animals is an insult to all animals.[disgust]http://forum.caithness.org/images/icons/icon8.gif

Aaldtimer
13-Jun-09, 02:53
..."The cultures of knife killing and absent fatherhood are common denominators in certain sections of society - we all know what I'm talking about but I can't be bothered attracting flak from the usual quarters."...

Percy your latent racism is noted without you having to spell it out.
I don't think it's confined to the coloured community, it's out of control in all communities.

I have never agreed with the death penalty, never will, but some sort of heavier sentencing penalty must be brought to bear if this is going to be brought under control.
:confused

cuddlepop
13-Jun-09, 08:44
Fortunatly we dont have a "Knife" culture over here on Skye but we do have an "attitude" culture.

Its as Brandy said,kids think its cool to act and talk the way they do and the only people they impress are like minded "lost" kids.

Kids are no longer the kids we were at 13/14 they act and talk as if they were alot older say 18.

The question we as a society have to ask is Why?:confused

As to your knife sentencing I agree with you Percy.:(.courts are far to lienient.

percy toboggan
13-Jun-09, 08:45
[quote=Aaldtimer;560533Percy your latent racism is noted without you having to spell it out.
I don't think it's confined to the coloured community, it's out of control in all communities.


[/quote]

That means you recognise what I'm talking about then - jolly good.
Of course it's not limited to 'coloured' people - but in London they account for 50% of the perpetrators and a higher figure when it comes to victims. Sadly cases like Kinsella get more coverage because the victim is white which seems a little unfair to me and won't help in the alienation (alien nation ?) stakes at all. Black knife victims seldom make newspaper front pages.

You say it's "out of control in all communities" - but Aaldstimer this is patently not true. Sometimes we need to re-read and think a little before we hit send,which bring me to my next post.

percy toboggan
13-Jun-09, 08:51
I hope you have not taken any notice of my comments on your long-distance paternal arrangements.

I am not without fault myself - having for many years spent an average two to three nights away from home most weeks purely in pursuit of a half-decent wage.

My relationship with my own Son (and Daughter) now is very good and always has been. He has never been 'in bother' and was always a very respectful child but I do reproach myself for spending time away on a regular basis.

I talk to him now about it and he admonishes me for negative feelings on the matter. Still, most of us only get one chance to do it right. If I'm honest with myself I don't think I did!

joxville
13-Jun-09, 10:00
Not really - I mean absent.
Although there are degrees of absence and 700 miles seems a long way to me, but it's not for me to criticise you via the internet, or via anywhere else really , and that's not what this thread is about....unless you want to start an argument.

The cultures of knife killing and absent fatherhood are common denominators in certain sections of society - we all know what I'm talking about but I can't be bothered attracting flak from the usual quarters.

Murders like these will carry on happening and the prisons will keep filling up.

I've reached the conclusion that these murderers and their ilk should face the death penalty. They are not 'animals' as described...the are savages' and have no place in a civilised society.

The only practical way to reduce their numbers is to work over a generation and more with early intervention - aggressive kids can be spotted at six or seven and if the parents (or lack of 'em) tick other negative boxes then resources should be spent in trying to turn them around.

I wouldn't entirely disagree with you however I still say an absent father has nothing to do with it. My own father died when I was aged 7, I'm the third youngest of 8, yet not one of my siblings nor me 'went of the rails'-my mother did a fantastic job in difficult circumstances in raising us to be level-headed people. There have been thousands more similar cases of single parents doing a difficult job, yet it's a minority that just don't try hard enough in raising their child(ren).

For many years in Glasgow,(esp. in the 60's & 70's)-not far from where I was raised-there was a gang culture and I doubt very much if it had anything to do with the part of your statement I've emboldened above. Some blame the gang culture of America, especially the Negroid community, of making it's mark on youths here but the UK has always had a gang culture, in all our major cities, long before the issue of colour became a factor.

golach
13-Jun-09, 10:06
For many years in Glasgow,(esp. in the 60's & 70's)-not far from where I was raised-there was a gang culture and I doubt very much if it had anything to do with the part of your statement I've emboldened above. Some blame the gang culture of America, especially the Negroid community, of making it's mark on youths here but the UK has always had a gang culture, in all our major cities, long before the issue of colour became a factor.

Jox, you are right, this is nothing new, there were gangs in Edinburgh and Glasgow and no doubt many other cities as far back as the 30's you just have to read Alexander McArthur's book No Mean City, and that was printed in 1935.

joxville
13-Jun-09, 20:25
Jox, you are right, this is nothing new, there were gangs in Edinburgh and Glasgow and no doubt many other cities as far back as the 30's you just have to read Alexander McArthur's book No Mean City, and that was printed in 1935.

I'll need to do a web search for the book, which I had heard of many years ago. Incidentally, it is used as the name of the theme song to Taggart.

percy toboggan
13-Jun-09, 20:29
The gang culture you both allude to was tiny compared to what now goes on in the major connurbations in the English midlands and south.

We currently have a generation listening to violent music forms where murder is celebrated and women demeaned. This may be appropriate for the back alleys of Kingston Jamaica, but Kingston-upon-Thames?

Aspiration seldom extends beyond a bling bracelet, a posh mobile camera-phone with which to capture an assault or bang-gang or at best a Subaru Imprezza. All ethnicities are picking up on this rubbish and it's spreading like a virus.

Rheghead
13-Jun-09, 20:38
We currently have a generation listening to violent music forms where murder is celebrated and women demeaned. This may be appropriate for the back alleys of Kingston Jamaica, but Kingston-upon-Thames?

Aspiration seldom extends beyond a bling bracelet, a posh mobile camera-phone with which to capture an assault or bang-gang or at best a Subaru Imprezza. All ethnicities are picking up on this rubbish and it's spreading like a virus.

I doubt if Islamic fundamentalists would be indulging in the music or the culture that you speak of?

Aaldtimer
13-Jun-09, 20:40
[quote=percy toboggan;560564]That means you recognise what I'm talking about then - jolly good.
Of course it's not limited to 'coloured' people - but in London they account for 50% of the perpetrators and a higher figure when it comes to victims. Sadly cases like Kinsella get more coverage because the victim is white which seems a little unfair to me and won't help in the alienation (alien nation ?) stakes at all. Black knife victims seldom make newspaper front pages.

Sorry Perce, once again I cannot agree with you.
The Kinsella case got the overkill because he was a minor actor and brother of a "Soap" actress.
Black victims get plenty coverage...Lawrence, Damiyola(sp) etc, plenty of others I've forgotten the names of.
Every day reports appear on the BBC news website, every part of the country it seems, and getting more frequent every passing day.

joxville
13-Jun-09, 20:48
So who or what is to blame Percy? It can't all be the fault of absent fathers.....nor can they all be the product of one parent families. Is it successive Governments fault for allowing people freedom...which would have caused a rebellion if our freedom were oppressed and our movements controlled by Governments.

I know you don't have the answers Percy, nor do I.....who does? It's a sad indictment of society today that so many young feel the need to carry knives, not just with the sole intention of using them, but also as defence against attackers.

I know you despair of society today Percy, I do too, but there are so many problems inherent with being young these days that finding solutions is not going to be easy-it's difficult enough trying to understand the problem.