Only local football from now on...

[Niall Fernie]

My mailbox just cannot take the strain of all the complaints I get when a new football thread gets going. The posters involved just don't seem to be able to contain themselves and prevent the thread diving into namecalling and bigottry.

From now on all posts relating to any football thats not highland league or below will be removed.

[willowbankbear]

Thought ye said that before Niall, I said this in one of my posts yesterday. Fine by me ,though it was starting to get tedious[mad]

[teddybear1873]

Yep i dont blame you Naill, I'm probebly partly to blame. I will hold my hands up to that

[weezer 316]

What!

Cmon man. Rather than discourage a legitimate debate by banning talk of the subject, why not just ban those who drag it down?

Next thing we know, anything with ability to incite strong feelings, from abortion to local hooligans will be banned becase it receives complaints!

I agree some people drag it down, but surely banning it can only be counter productive, and lead to people complaining bitterly about topics and posts which might not be offensive, but that they simply dont agree with, simply to to try and overwhelm your mailbox?

[chiccool]

how do you not make a section just for football just like you have ones for cars or gardening .that way only people that want to argue about their teams can do so without offending others .

[The Pepsi Challenge]

How about that Wick Academy, eh?

[Loafer]

How about that Wick Academy, eh?

What a team, canna kick a jelly bean!

The Loafer

[Henrik7]

Was that something to do with the Barcelona v Chelski thread since it has disappeared. What happened?

[scotsboy]

Unless Barcelona were playing Chelsea at the Dammies of the Harmsworth its gone:)

[Henrik7]

Maybe Jackie Gunn will get it sorted out for us!!! lol!!

[mike.mckenzie]

We all love the national team, can't we talk about how kak they are?

[connieb19]

Whats wrong with it? As long as people wanting to talk about football stuck to the football threads, why's it a problem? Maybe some people don't like jokes but I would imagine they would just avoid the joke threads in the same way as I would avoid football threads!! :confused: It's good to have a bit of everything, so that it suits every-one and we are all happy. :D

[connieb19]

http://kimskorner.zed1.net/blog/wp-content/poofs.jpg

[willowbankbear]

Ive got a rude 1 of that same snap Connie:p

[connieb19]

Ive got a rude 1 of that same snap Connie:pGies a lookie then!!!:eek:

[willowbankbear]

how do ye put pics on here then? & I will

[tommy1979]

My mailbox just cannot take the strain of all the complaints I get when a new football thread gets going. The posters involved just don't seem to be able to contain themselves and prevent the thread diving into namecalling and bigottry.

From now on all posts relating to any football thats not highland league or below will be removed.

Bah humbug :eyes

Some people are just poor wee sensitive souls eh [lol]

[weeboyagee]

Golach,.....GOLACH!!!! See what they've done!!!! Dons_lad and elite98 and jambo (crikey you're gonna get band just for your name pal!!!) and all the rest of us including the above named have been bbbbb-aaaaaaa-ddddddd boys!! Aaaarrrrgggghhhhh.....what are we going to do now?? I canna wind ye up? I canna mention that word anymore and you can't mention the other word anymore. :(

The very thing that brought us together as friends has now been removed because others have taken offence at others who (I hope it wasn't us!!) took it to an extreme. I thought we were all just having good fun.

Need to think about this one a bit more.......

Well could I ask something - those who complained to Niall,.... what was so much getting up your hump that isn't seen in a similar way in many other threads on these forums??? And yes,.... I am a bit miffed about this. What's it going to be next then??? What won't we be allowed to talk about soon because we're going to fill Niall's mailbox with complaints?? :mad: I agree with weezer 316 and connieb19 on this. Humphhhh.... and Tommy79 - bah humbug - think I'll turn into a grumpy owld man heh-heh.... ;)

WBG :cool:

[tommy1979]

Tommy79 - bah humbug - think I'll turn into a grumpy owld man heh-heh.... ;)

WBG :cool:

Sad aint it.....people just love to complain about stuff, if they dont like football threads just dont read them.....its not hard!!

and like ma mam would say tae me...sticks and stones....i think yous know the rest [lol]

[gleeber]

Sad aint it.....people just love to complain about stuff, if they dont like football threads just dont read them.....its not hard!!

and like ma mam would say tae me...sticks and stones....i think yous know the rest [lol]


When I die and go to heaven, apart from hiding behind a big rock with DrSzin, hiding from Porshiepoo, theres 2 people I am going to find and strangle. The first one is the person (probably a protestant) who coined the phrase "hard work never killed anyone" The second is the person who said "sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me" Thats what prompted me to bring up my fears about football banter.
I widna complain about some of the more sectarian stuff ive read on the football threads and I think its a pity it wont be on view any more. However I have till disagree with Weeboyagee when he says his banter with Golach was only fun. I know it was intended as fun, and for him and Golach and probably a lot more o ye it was fun, and although I can see the fun, I also believe its the breeding ground of some of the more dangerous activities associated with football worship.
I think some of the more sectarian and bigoted posts were posted by some of ye who grew up in Caithness. Now, I dont believe as wee loons ye were immediatley hard core bigots. Im sure ye had your banter with your mates who supported the other team, just liike weeboyagee and golach have their banter, but something more nasty developed somewhere along the line.
Anyone who has been to an old firm match canna not be affected by the rivalry between the 2 sets of supporters. Its pure hatred. It starts somewhere.
I am as big a football fan as the best o ye, but my love of football was sadly affected by the stupidity of dangerous wee boys running wild at football matches in and around London in the late 60s and 70s. I also recognised the emotions in myself which I eventually found to be pretty unhealthy.
I realise in the scale of football thuggery, Golach and weeboyagee are very minor players,and i widna call them thugs at all, although Im sure golach has the potential, but I will be interested to see what your take is on it now that I have brought it up.

[DrSzin]

I tend to agree with connieb19, WBG and tommy79. There was some pretty "upfront" stuff on those football threads, but the debate was at least honest and straightforward, and everybody involved understood the issues. It did go a bit too far at times, but I just kept out of it when that happened. I don't know why so many people felt sufficiently strongly that they had to go moaning at Niall by email. Obviously, I understand Niall's point of view - I wouldn't want each morning's mailbox full of moans about football threads either, but I would ask those that did email him to ask themselves why they did so. Was it simply because they didn't like what what written there, or was it due to some sense of protecting the community from the dangerous opinions of we footie fans?

I would also like to ask another question of the people who complained to Niall: have you also complained about the abysmal level of debate on the thread "Is science the new religion?" The majority of the anti-science posts therein display an incredulous lack of knowledge and understanding of what is often called the scientific method. Similar comments may be made for some of the anti-Christian posts. It seems to me that one could easily construct a case for the removal of all such posts in order to protect the innocent from heresy (from either side). Indeed, perhaps we should ban all threads on religion - unless it's Highland religion lol. The main thing I've learned from that thread is that people are still debating angels and pins in the 21st century. I've learned nothing about science or religion from it, but I've learned a lot about people and why they think what they think, and it's not all pretty. The same was true of the various football threads.

Before anyone asks - yes, of course I've read the Bible (well, most of it) and I'm pretty sure I've understood what the authors meant, at a not-too-allegorical level at least! In contrast, most of the hot-big-bang detractors seem to have no idea what its predictions are, and they have even less knowledge of how well those predictions fit the observable universe. No physical scientist of my acquaintance seriously doubts that the big bang occurred. The evidence in favour of it is overwhelming. The same is true of evolution - it is observed in our labs every day. The interesting questions are in the details in both cases.

But enough of this rambling digression...

Before Niall's patience was tried by the emails of a few, I was going to point out that Football might be better-considered as a candidate for the new religion. After all, allegiances are often formed by accidents of birth and parenthood, and there is usually no rational reason for any one person to support any one club over another. It's kinda like being born into Protestantism, Catholicism, Islam or Atheism. In both cases one is (sometimes) free to convert between religions (or clubs) in later life.

My devotion to the Reds of Merseyside is at least partly due to the unlikely event of my being in Liverpool as a young kid on the day the Reds won the FA Cup for the first time. I have no idea why I was there btw! Similarly, I decided to become a Dons supporter simply because they were the nearest First Division club (in pre-Premier League days) to Caithness. It seemed the obvious choice at the time. I dare say I would be an ICT supporter if I'd been born just a few years ago.

Gleeber, have I in some roundabout way addressed your questions? Probably not lol. I'm blowing my own trumpet unashamedly here. Anyway, I don't believe in Heaven rocks, so I'll likely no see you there. And you won't see Porshiepoo, because she doesn't believe in it either. Well, I don't think she does...

Is anyone still reading my ramblings?

[Rheghead]

Can't the old sectarian fitba banter carry on if yer jus replace a big name club's name wi anuvva from kaitness?:lol:

Niall will never twig.:eyes

[Alice in Blunderland]

I have to admit to never reading any of the football posts as they were not of interest to me.This is a forum for debate and I take it thats what was going on.....if you dont like the debate move on thats what I have tended to do with other posts that I have found to be not of my liking. Why ban just the football religion and immigration are other debates which can incite a heated debate and sail close to the wind as I have seen on occasions.I am not suggesting that you ban these subjects either but on occasion I have found some of the posts uncomfortable reading never enough to make me email Niall to complain freedom of speach and all that.:p I dont agree with the ban on football much better to have picked on those guilty of being bad little boys/girls.;)

[golach]

When I die and go to heaven, apart from hiding behind a big rock with DrSzin,

However I have till disagree with Weeboyagee when he says his banter with Golach was only fun. I know it was intended as fun, and for him and Golach and probably a lot more o ye it was fun, and although I can see the fun, I also believe its the breeding ground of some of the more dangerous activities associated with football worship.
I think some of the more sectarian and bigoted posts were posted by some of ye who grew up in Caithness. Now, I dont believe as wee loons ye were immediatley hard core bigots. Im sure ye had your banter with your mates who supported the other team, just liike weeboyagee and golach have their banter, but something more nasty developed somewhere along the line.
Anyone who has been to an old firm match canna not be affected by the rivalry between the 2 sets of supporters. Its pure hatred. It starts somewhere.
I I also recognised the emotions in myself which I eventually found to be pretty unhealthy.
I realise in the scale of football thuggery, Golach and weeboyagee are very minor players,and i widna call them thugs at all, although Im sure golach has the potential, but I will be interested to see what your take is on it now that I have brought it up.

Firstly, when you die Gleeber, I dont think you and the good DrSzin will be hiding behind a rock, and what would two grown men be hiding for anyway? I wonder eh? But thats another thread.

As for being a thug, for a start I'm too old and too wee, BUT, I do agree with Niall's decision to curb the banter and thats what I call it just banter, but it was getting out of control, not with WBG and myself I hasten to add, the younger and some not so young element were begining to bring bigotry into the thread, I am an armchair football supporter, not because of any religious reasons I support my nearest football team which happen to wear green and are associated with one of the two opposing faiths of Scotland, Its at times like this I became all smug and remind ye all I'm an Agnostic and dont believe any of your religious hokum pokum. Again this is another thread.
Niall has a hard enough job, without us all sniping at each other, tho' I did enjoy a lot of the banter. BTW WBG, I can still be reached by pm

[weeboyagee]

Well, well, did that not make interesting reading? Sorry Doc,..... I nearly fell asleep but didn't!!! :lol:

I will miss the banter too golach - I thought we were a good example of how to wind people up about fitba' and show that everyone can still be friends - how blind we were - and how enlightened I am after reading gleeber's post ;) (sorry gleeber,...just a wee poke at you - doesn't happen often on my keyboard lol!!!)

OK, I'll PM you as usual golach - we can still have our banter - especially April 2nd (the day I have now nick-named "The Day After" for subtle reasons eh? ;))

Ah well, here endeth the fun. Good job we didn't land up with restricting it to highland religion DrSzin - this whole web-site would have been band yonks ago by the wee-freez (here endeth the tea-break).

See yaz WBG :cool:

[scotsboy]

Dr Szin wrote:

I tend to agree with connieb19, WBG and tommy79. There was some pretty "upfront" stuff on those football threads, but the debate was at least honest and straightforward, and everybody involved understood the issues. It did go a bit too far at times, but I just kept out of it when that happened. I don't know why so many people felt sufficiently strongly that they had to go moaning at Niall by email. Obviously, I understand Niall's point of view - I wouldn't want each morning's mailbox full of moans about football threads either, but I would ask those that did email him to ask themselves why they did so. Was it simply because they didn't like what what written there, or was it due to some sense of protecting the community from the dangerous opinions of we footie fans?
I disagree Doc; I don’t think much of the debate was honest, straightforward or upfront. Most of it was subjective, contrived and ignorant I also don’t think all of those involved understood the issues either, otherwise some of the language that was used would not have been. Take the term “Hun” for instance – widely used in many of the posts. I personally find it derogatory and unnecessary – Rangers fans do not call themselves HUNS, therefore from my perspective the use of the term is akin to using the N word to describe someone of colour. It is unacceptable.

I don’t mind having a debate on football but there are other forums I would choose before this one.
Dr Szin wrote:
I would also like to ask another question of the people who complained to Niall: have you also complained about the abysmal level of debate on the thread "Is science the new religion?" The majority of the anti-science posts therein display an incredulous lack of knowledge and understanding of what is often called the scientific method.
I contacted Naill about the stereotyping of a section of the community, after I had contacted the poster. I consider it unacceptable to blindly castigate an entire group of people because you happen to support a different team – then we get the contrite “some of my best friends are INSERT TEAM supporters……now where have I heard all that before. Even the Scotland/England debate (for any sport) is polarized by anti-English sentiment rather than any great admiration of Scotland. It is unacceptable.
Dr Szin wrote:
Similar comments may be made for some of the anti-Christian posts. It seems to me that one could easily construct a case for the removal of all such posts in order to protect the innocent from heresy (from either side). Indeed, perhaps we should ban all threads on religion - unless it's Highland religion lol. The main thing I've learned from that thread is that people are still debating angels and pins in the 21st century. I've learned nothing about science or religion from it, but I've learned a lot about people and why they think what they think, and it's not all pretty. The same was true of the various football threads.
I was actually going to start a thread about the polarized debate in the Science V Religion topic, I have found the dismissive attitude of those on both sides of the argument to be subjective and poorly constructed.
Dr Szin wrote:
Before Niall's patience was tried by the emails of a few, I was going to point out that Football might be better-considered as a candidate for the new religion. After all, allegiances are often formed by accidents of birth and parenthood, and there is usually no rational reason for any one person to support any one club over another. It's kinda like being born into Protestantism, Catholicism, Islam or Atheism. In both cases one is (sometimes) free to convert between religions (or clubs) in later life.
Football will never be the new religion Doc, it has sold its soul to mammon and in the religion of football there is no hope or salvation for the majority of the followers, therefore the reality of life as a devotee of Albion Roversism would to be continually constrained to life in Coatbridge and the lower echelons of Scottish football.
Dr Szin wrote:
Is anyone still reading my ramblings?
I read your ramblings Doc, I read them religiously and systematically study them, breaking them down into their component parts to make sure I understand them.

[scotsboy]

Gleeber wrote:
However I have till disagree with Weeboyagee when he says his banter with Golach was only fun. I know it was intended as fun, and for him and Golach and probably a lot more o ye it was fun, and although I can see the fun, I also believe its the breeding ground of some of the more dangerous activities associated with football worship.
A good friend of mine who spoke with an English (London accent) as they had lived in that area most of their life was subjected to abuse at work for being “English”, they were name called and derided at every opportunity – this got worse during such events at European Championships/World Cups………when it was pointed out to those who were dishing out the abuse that my friend was not actually English at all (but another European nationality) – the answer was, aye but you sound English. When it all got a bit much and my friend complained – ach it is only in fun. The fact that this fun nearly gave my friend a nervous breakdown seemed to matter little.

Now Gleeber, the people who were dishing this out, were born and bred in Caithness, I know them. There prejudices are inherent, they are still there today. It is their ignorance that what they see as crack (or craic…..just for you Pepsi) is nothing more than discrimination and bigotry.

[peter macdonald]

Scotsboy for once I actually agree with a lot of what you say but it should be realised that anyone who enters a thread about football should always check the thinkness of their skin before entering . A look on the various football boards around the net will confirm my observation. Re the anti English views of the Celtic nations at sporting events ..a lot of this is the little guy knocking over the big guy syndrome ..this is mirrored the world every time Uruguay play Argentina at football etc or Finland play Sweden at Ice Hockey or a more extreme example
the Czechoslovakia v Russia Ice Hockey series in the 70s
However we in Scotland have an abundance of 90 minute patriots who shout a lot of bigoted preduced rubbish during the events before returning to real life afterwards

[weeboyagee]

......you think it is bad here - go to the BBC fans forum, wake up and smell the coffe of the REAL world that you live in and not the soft, comfortable and getting MORE comfortable world of caithness.org. This internet web-site caters for most of all social debates that go on in the local community.

Compared to the "banter" that we had on the football threads, some of it was tame compared to the "hard" if not intellectual language of some of the latter posts on this forum. C'mon guys, lighten up. Huns may offend you on here when used once or twice - but go down the street and you and your team are referred to (wrongly in my opionion - I don't care for any of these terms as you will see by the content of my football thread postings) to a heck of a lot worse - as are mine and as are golach's.

If the football thread postings were as offensive as is being portrayed on this thread then thank goodness Niall did stop them before we inadvertently offended the whole of caithness and beyond. But I'll tell you something - I offer no apology for my contributions, and somewhat think that the "more" guilty parties are holding their tongues because "see what they did"!!!!!

Jeeez,........ and the mix-up of references to this and another particular thread - we are entitled to our opinions and we offer them - whether you like it or not - I can't see where you could be offended by the other thread referred to - there are compliments flying in it with respect being given from most parties on both sides (and in the middle) of the debate. You don't like it? DON'T READ IT!! You only need to open it once to see what it's about and not want to read again. So quit whining and shove off to another thread that you like - I do - and so do many others!!!!! :mad:

[Blast!]

Yeah man, saying that was my point exactly. It's a typical everyday saying as far as i'm concerned but there are people are so uptight that they are offened by it.

Calling someone a Hun is not particularly offensive, nor a Fenian for that matter because more often or not, the people saying these things don't even know the history behind them, they're are just senseless, moronic folk who have been sucked up into some of the bigotry that has no place within the o
Old Firm.

On the BBC forum's we just call them the Orc's.....it's pretty self explanatory really!

[DrSzin]

Jeeez,........ and the mix-up of references to this and another particular thread - we are entitled to our opinions and we offer them - whether you like it or not - I can't see where you could be offended by the other thread referred to - there are compliments flying in it with respect being given from most parties on both sides (and in the middle) of the debate.Wasn't that just "banter"? Surely it wasn't any worse than the "banter" you are defending on the football threads, and similar to your "banter" which ridiculed the big bang? If you are ostensibly critical about something in public, then you should expect to get a response to that criticism.


You don't like it? DON'T READ IT!! You only need to open it once to see what it's about and not want to read again. So quit whining and shove off to another thread that you like - I do - and so do many others!!!!!:mad:I couldn't agree more. :cool:

A post which discusses debates on two different threads has to be posted on one or other, and I happened to choose this one because I had already inadvertently followed your advice and shoved off from the other. But I'm sure you realise that my suggestion to ban threads on religion was pure irony. ;)

[Geo]

My mailbox just cannot take the strain of all the complaints I get when a new football thread gets going. The posters involved just don't seem to be able to contain themselves and prevent the thread diving into namecalling and bigottry.

From now on all posts relating to any football thats not highland league or below will be removed.

Surely it would be better to ban or warn those who spoil it and let those with a healthy and balanced view of the game continue to enjoy discussing it? Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

[JAWS]

Dr.S, I didn't realise we were both in Liverpool when they won the Cup. I went there to visit some of my first wife's relatives in Toxteth followed by going to see Bob Dylan who was giving a concert there on the same say.

I too remember the problems with Football in the 60s and 70s, the days when the Stretford End could proudly sing, "We're the worst behaved supporters in the land." Well, the press had given them that title.

As for the Scotland/England games, what can I say? I'm a little ham-strung with that now because it's fairly well known I'm English. That wasn't known until recently so I used to enjoy having a dig at both sides when the opportunity arose, it was fun swapping sides.

Yes England takes stick over football, and quite rightly so at times, but I hardly think the Stanleys and the Percys will be gathering their armed retainers to defend the Border against the Marauding Scots raiding Northern England over a Football Match.

We are rapidly being turned into a race of mindless robots who are not to be allowed to show any emotions, discuss anything controversial, hold any thought different to the accepted "Norm", and only permitted to say what is totally acceptable to everybody and fearing the slightest complaint from anybody.

We have had societies like that in the distant and not to distant past.
In the distant past such heretics were reported to the Authorities and burned at the stake, in more recent times, within living memory, they were denounced to the Authorities and disappeared into the camps never to be seen again.

Are we really going to return to having to take care over every word and phrase for fear of the Thought Police and the knock on the door in the middle of the night.

If people object to what is being said on a thread the decent thing to do is to say so on the thread. Complaining behind the scenes and leaving the Moderators to take the flak (Oops, sorry, I meant no reference to the Second World War, so I will retract that and humbly apologise for any offence caused) to take the heat is totally unfair to them.

If you are offended then be brave enough to say so publicly. The Moderators have enough sense to realise when a thread is becoming unacceptable without having to be instructed so by others.

[DrSzin]

Dr.S, I didn't realise we were both in Liverpool when they won the Cup. I went there to visit some of my first wife's relatives in Toxteth followed by going to see Bob Dylan who was giving a concert there on the same say.Aye, well, stranger things have happened. I was bit young to go and see Dylan though.

I still have the following Monday's(?) copy of the Liverpool Echo stashed away somewhere. I remember some of the headlines: "Hunt stoops to conquer," and "St John whips in the winner." There was one about Billy Bremner's equaliser, but I don't remember the wording. Note that two of the three goals were scored by Scots - those were the days.

[canuck]

It is with fear and trembling that I push open, just a crack, the door to this thread. Peter, I sense Eddie Shack and Bobby Clark circling menacingly, waiting to deliver a full blown body check. Collision with the boards does not make for a pretty sight. I pray that I can skate fast enough to stay out of their way.

It is the suggestion that "sport is the new religion" that caught my attention. It isn't just football that fits the category. All professional sport is in that camp. The way in which the threads are being crossed this last week or so one would begin to think that we are weaving a new Scottish Tartan. Right up there on my shelf with Ancient Douglas (the one I wear) and Royal Stewart (the one my alma mater uses) will be the official C.org pattern. (They are right Doc, one does tend to ramble on this thread.) Where I am trying to go is to say that, for me, the real issue which I have observed in the myriad of postings is the lack of a clear definition of the term "religion". In fact the greatest flaw in the discussions of the past several days has been a misunderstanding of and lack of consistancy in the use of many terms. And I admit, I am as guilty as anyone of using words that I did not carefully define for the reader.

So, for this page, I am going with religion as "a practice of sacred rites." On that understanding I support the notion of sport as a religion.

Just about everything I know about football I have learned from these pages and the kind orgers who have sent me PMs on the subject. Why, we even had a lesson a couple of years ago on picking a team to support, once Scotland was out of the competition. One author suggested matching up with the country who was making the best wine at the time. Made sense to me. I guess football is not the sport I should be evaluating as to its status as a religion. However, I can say that baseball and hockey and American rules football all fit into the category of sport as a religion.

Okay, I pushed the door open far too far. Time for a hasty retreat. But thank you for letting me watch this interesting huddle.

[JAWS]

Aye, well, stranger things have happened. I was bit young to go and see Dylan though.

I still have the following Monday's(?) copy of the Liverpool Echo stashed away somewhere. I remember some of the headlines: "Hunt stoops to conquer," and "St John whips in the winner." There was one about Billy Bremner's equaliser, but I don't remember the wording. Note that two of the three goals were scored by Scots - those were the days.
That's when Scotland had a Team to be proud of. They must cringe at the present lot.
Ian St. John, now there was a player. Scouse humour came to the fore because of him.

There was a large sign outside a Church in Liverpool asking, "What would you do if Christ came to Earth tomorrow?"
Some Scouse Wag had written underneath, "Move St. John to the left wing!"

[The Pepsi Challenge]

Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian are my local teams. Is it OK to talk about them?

[willowbankbear]

Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian are my local teams. Is it OK to talk about them?

No, theyre not Highland teams. Im moving to Aberdeen next week, Cove Rangers are in the Highland league, Does that count?[lol] [lol]

[The Pepsi Challenge]

OK, I'll take the risk and stick my neck out. This is what I wanted to say last week, but such a thread has made me think twice. If I'm banned for it, then so be it. However, like Scotsboy, I do believe in free speech. Anyway...

Now that the disgraceful anti-catholic songs sung 'religiously' by Rangers supporters is at last being challenged by European football's governing body (shame on you the Scottish Football Association for ignoring this for almost a century), it came as no surprise to see the wagons circled by the usual apologists in the Scottish media desperate to deflect attention away from the one true guilty party, Rangers FC and it's supporters, less than 48 hours after UEFA's public notification that they were issuing disciplinary proceedings against Rangers Football Club.

So while Gordon Smith, Chick Young, Radio Clyde and the rest look to either ignore the issue and hope it goes away with their wonderful impression of an Ostrich with it's head stuck ever so deeply beneath the sand, an impression mastered by the vast majority of the media for many generations or in the afore-mentioned case of Smith and Young, look to widen the debate to include parties who have not once been cited in any UEFA investigation. Namely, Celtic football club.

However, rather than go down a route of compiling an article detailing the many ails of Rangers FC and their large core of sectarian singing followers and be accused of a lack of objectivity, well that and the fact it would take me that long to write it would take fifty years to complete, I thought I would provide evidence from both the World's and Europe's governing bodies and the BBC's website and let you the reader decide if the issue is an all encompassing Scottish one or one that resides primarily with Rangers football club and it's followers:

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/Keytopics/kind=512/newsId=402870.html

"UEFA has instigated disciplinary proceedings against Scottish club Rangers FC and Spanish outfit Villareal CF for various infringements relating to the UEFA Champions League first knockout round tie."

Discriminatory chants and lack of organisation
"The European governing body will give attention to the improper conduct and hooliganism of Rangers supporters in the return leg in Spain on 7 March, as well as to the fans' discriminatory chants in both fixtures. Villareal are also being investigated for lack of organisation and violation of UEFA security instructions in the return leg match."

We then have an incredible situation of Strathclyde Police attempting to 'play down' the incident but quickly followed by a report from a Scottish journalist who now resides at Spain and viewed the incident.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4784322.stm

A bus carrying players from Spanish club Villarreal was pelted with bottles and beer cans by Rangers fans before the sides met in the Champions League.

It was reported that a side window on the bus was smashed as it arrived at Villarreal's Madrigal Stadium.

However, police said they were happy with the behaviour of Rangers fans.

Superintendent Tim Love, who was in Spain for Strathclyde Police, was keen to play down the incident and said local police had "no issues with it".

"They are unable to even say if it was reported as an incident to them", he said.

'Ugly scenes'

Graeme Hunter of the Daily Mail told BBC Scotland of "two ugly incidents".

"The Villarreal team bus was arriving here through the very small narrow streets of their town to the Madrigal and a number of objects, including a bottle were thrown at the team bus," he said.

"One of the windows of the Villarreal team bus shattered.

"The bus carried on its journey towards the stadium, arriving outside the principal door of the main stand.

"At that point, I'd say there were 40 or 50 Rangers fans, rocking the bus, bashing on the bus, shouting and throwing plastic cups of beer, which made for very ugly scenes indeed."

We then move onto how UEFA reacted to 80,000 Celtic supporters attending the UEFA Cup Final also in Spain, less than three years earlier:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/3189853.stm

Celtic fans 'Europe's best'

Celtic's fans have been named the best in Europe by Uefa.

The Scottish outfit's supporters received the 2003 Uefa Fair Play Award on Wednesday for their behaviour during the club's run to the Uefa Cup final last season.

European football's governing body paid tribute to the 80,000 fans that had travelled to Seville to help create a fiesta atmosphere in the Spanish city.

Celtic Supporters Association general secretary Eddie Toner said: "The Fair Play Award is a fantastic tribute to the Celtic supporters who represented the club in Europe so magnificently last season.

"Celtic supporters have travelled in large numbers throughout Europe over many years and they have rightly earned an excellent reputation during this time.

"The Fair Play Award is further recognition of the Celtic supporters' high standing in Europe and an honour which is well deserved."

Celtic chairman Brian Quinn added: "The backing the team received from supporters throughout our entire Uefa Cup run both home and away was overwhelming and the supporters' behaviour was a credit to the club.

"Despite the disappointment in Seville, Celtic's Uefa Cup challenge and the crucial role which the supporters played in this effort will be remembered and treasured for years to come."

Celtic season ticket holders John Byrne and John Gallagher accepted the award at the annual Uefa Football Gala in Monte Carlo.

Uefa also confirmed that it is to present a special plaque to the club's fans at Celtic Park before a match in September.

With UEFA issuing a fair play award to a football clubs supporters for the very first time, FIFA also paid their own tribute to the Celtic support:

CELEBRATING CELTIC PRIDE IN THE HEART OF ANDALUSIA
This Article Is Reproduced From http://www.fifa.com

Recipients of the FIFA Fair Play Award 2003: the supporters of Celtic FC Last May, as the UEFA Cup approached its riveting climax, the host city of Seville found itself awash in a sea of green - a rather atypical colour for the dry streets of the Andalusian capital in the midst of summer. But no matter where Celtic FC plays - whether near or far from its Glasgow roots - a flood of faithful supporters is certain to follow. If you inject the emotional charge of a European championship match into the mix, the magnetic pull on those whose hearts bleed Celtic green becomes all but irresistible.

For the occasion, upwards of 80,000 supporters bearing the distinctive hoop-green jerseys made the pilgrimage to southern Spain to witness the 2003 UEFA Cup title match that pitted Celtic's "Bhoys" against FC Porto of Portugal. Hoping to refresh the taste of past European glories, the mass of Celtic fans transformed Seville from quiet neutral venue to electric home ground - never mind the fact that the site of the Final, the Estadio Olympico, only had room for 45,000 spectators. Although simple mathematics told them that not even half of those who descended upon the Spanish city would find themselves fortunate enough to see the game from inside the stadium, this small detail became a rallying cry rather than discouraging would-be pilgrims from not just around Europe, but also across the globe.

"Everyone felt like they had to be there," said Eddie Toner, General Secretary of the Celtic Supporters Association. "Celtic supporters think of themselves as a community - a real family. They all wanted to go and be a part of the experience together."

As the weekend prior to the Wednesday night showdown began, the looming fortress walls of the ancient Alcázar bore witness to a steady stream of shamrock-crested jerseys entering the city. Though the Spaniards' weekend was winding down, the Celtic "extended" weekend was just getting into high gear. Fanning out from the banks of the Río Guadalquivir, the Hoops faithful filled the narrow streets and plazas in the city centre not only with their energy, but with their infectious and playful delight as well.

[The Pepsi Challenge]

... continued

Over the course of a few days, Seville became a Celtic haven as it seemed everywhere you turned there were emerald smiles and songs. When the majority of the 25,000 Porto fans made their belated appearance the day before the match, the green-clad partygoers welcomed their opponents with open arms. Soaking in the sunshine, marvelling in the city's architecture and sharing in the plentiful bounty of tapas and cerveca's, Seville witnessed 100,000 football fanatics turn their city into a continuous fiesta of good will and Fair Play.

"Celtic and Porto fans revelled in the party together - it really became a carnival of football celebration," beamed Toner. "It was a great example of what supporting a team should be about."

Even after Porto's Brazilian striker Derlei ended Celtic's title hopes with a dramatic and heartbreaking goal in the 115th minute, the Celtic supporters maintained their good cheer.

Although football has too often in the past been beleaguered by the blight of a few ruffians who spoil the party at the expense of the real fans, the supporters of Celtic FC were a shining illustration of the meaning of Fair Play during their stay in Seville - jubilant in celebration, stalwart in support and although beaten in the score-line, utterly undefeated in spirit.

"Thanks to their exploits across Europe in recent years, Celtic's travelling supporters have now become a byword for good-natured sporting friendship and unswerving devotion to their team," said Celtic Executive Director Peter Lawwell.

FIFA couldn't agree more and is proud to recognise the supporters of Celtic FC with the FIFA Fair Play Award 2003.


So there you have it. Two clubs sharing one city but in behaviour and how they are respected throughout European and World football they are completely Poles apart.

In ending we'll provide one further short but nonetheless important statement issued back in 1976 following Rangers supporters rioting in Birmingham from the late Ian Archer, a man widely regarded within the football reporting community as one of the best in the business:

'As a Scottish football club, they (Rangers) are a permanent embarrassment and an occasional disgrace'.

The more things change...although thankfully this time due to UEFA's intervention it does not look like they will remain the same...

[The Pepsi Challenge]

If I don't appear, you'll all know it's because I've been banned. Martyrdom, eh?

[Bill Fernie]

Yet again the football thread is causing us a headache. Not so much in what is being posted as just the sheer time take to deal with compaints.

The message board takes too long to deal with and we do not have time to sift out the rights and wrongs and make decisions - it takes too much time.

From our end it is about survival. I personally am getting somewhere in the region of 150 emails per day and with moderation of the message board complaints diverting attention from other matters we will have no option but to instigate longer bans and some of them permanent.

Niall has already pointed out that the football threads have caused us problems and this is not just about content but time take away from other jobs we need to do to maintain the site and keep it going. The more time we ned to devote to dealting with complaints the more the web site is under threat if we cannot spend time making it pay in other ways.

Two bans tonight already from this thread. 30 days this time but that is the last of the easy ones. Later bans from football threads will be much longer.

Sorry it has to be that way.