View Full Version : The Mod and Gaelic road signs
We've all heard it said that people can be in favour of the Mod but against Gaelic road signs and that's ok with the people in charge of the Mod.
Well......
I have spent this evening with a friend of the person who's in charge of where the Mod is held. He says that person is furious with the people of Caithness and despite public statements to the contrary he wants to move the Mod away from Thurso. I was told I should consult the chair of the organising committee of the Thurso Mod for confirmation of this!
As far as I can tell, none of these people from Central Scotland know anything about Caithness. [evil]
Aaldtimer
09-May-09, 02:39
As far as I can tell you are sharn stirring as usual![disgust]
Some more details.....
My friend's friend is the person who's in charge of deciding where the Mod will be held. My friend was told that they hold it in non-Gaelic areas to try and create or increase the influence of Gaelic in those areas. They regard the income from the Mod as a bribe for the local community and they expect the locals to erect Gaelic signposts because that's the very least they should do to show their thanks for all the money the Mod brings in. My friend agrees with this as does everyone he knows in the Gaelic-speaking community in Glasgow and Edinburgh. He said they believe we should support Gaelic-speaking Caithness locals such as Messrs Bremner and Fernie and be in favour of Gaelic signposts. He didn't believe me when I told him those two were natives of Edinburgh and as far as I know Mr Fernie is not even a Gaelic learner.
My friend tried to convince me that we owe it to Caithness' Gaelic history to erect Gaelic road signs. I proceeded to correct his history of Caithness at length and he quickly shut up when he realised I knew at least ten times as much as he did. He even said he would see his friend today and talk to him about what I said.
I know a good number of the Gaelic community in Glasgow and Edinburgh. Most of the vociferous ones are highly-educated middle-class professionals who are not native speakers and a good number of them aren't Scottish. On the whole the native Gaels get on with their lives in peace, the zealots are mostly converts.
I agree with Auldtimer, your are stirring the excrement[disgust]
Not at all, my friend started ranting about Thurso and the Mod last night and I thought the people of Caithness should know how the inner circle of Mod-dom thinks. My friend moves in these exalted circles.
I dunno if your on a wind up or not crayola but I can recognise the attitude you describe. :( I got a bit worked up about the Gaelic thing until I read the Gaelic bill and then realised there was nothing I could do about it so I will surpress my opinion that Gaelic should not have the power it has in Scottish society and welcome the mod when it comes. :confused
Not at all, my friend started ranting about Thurso and the Mod last night and I thought the people of Caithness should know how the inner circle of Mod-dom thinks. My friend moves in these exalted circles.
I declare that you are the winner of the Big Wooden Spoon for your stirring up on the forum.
I dunno if your on a wind up or not crayola but I can recognise the attitude you describe. :( I got a bit worked up about the Gaelic thing until I read the Gaelic bill and then realised there was nothing I could do about it so I will surpress my opinion that Gaelic should not have the power it has in Scottish society and welcome the mod when it comes. :confused
This is no wind up, gleeber. What I posted is a faithful account of last night's conversation. My friend is outraged at the fuss about Gaelic signposts in Caithness. I thought the Org should hear the opinions of someone with the ear of a top man in the Gaelic world.
ywindythesecond
09-May-09, 23:32
This is no wind up, gleeber. What I posted is a faithful account of last night's conversation. My friend is outraged at the fuss about Gaelic signposts in Caithness. I thought the Org should hear the opinions of someone with the ear of a top man in the Gaelic world.
How is he getting on with the Gaelic Street signs in Glasgow? They hold Mods there too.
What Gaelic street signs LOL? The Royal National Mod hasn't been to Glasgow? Has it? I hope not or I will feel foolish.
ywindythesecond
10-May-09, 00:13
What Gaelic street signs LOL? The Royal National Mod hasn't been to Glasgow? Has it? I hope not or I will feel foolish.
Definitely has crayola, but obviously before the internet came along, can't find a reference to it so far.
Some more details.....
My friend's friend is the person who's in charge of deciding where the Mod will be held. My friend was told that they hold it in non-Gaelic areas to try and create or increase the influence of Gaelic in those areas. They regard the income from the Mod as a bribe for the local community and they expect the locals to erect Gaelic signposts because that's the very least they should do to show their thanks for all the money the Mod brings in.
The part I have emboldened and underlined worries me. :eek:
1. My friends friend.
Second hand information is like Chinese Whispers.
Have we seen any Official from the Mod Organisers posting here about the subject?
2. Bribery......
I was shocked when I read this.
The Mod is supposed to be a Cultural Event, promoting Gaelic song, arts, literature and culture. The setting of it should not be demeaned by the thought that if your town is chosen, the income from holding the event there should considered a bribe to erect Gaelic Sign Posts ect.
The people and towns of Caithness will welcome the Mod and relish the music, arts etc which it will bring but there should not be an expectation or imposition that the county should change it's road signage.
If you wish to promote your culture you show what it can provide and how to enjoy it.
It should not be seen as a means to blackmail an area into making changes it would seem the majority don't want.
At present I am not seeing the enjoyment when there is continuous pressure for change.
Stop the arguing and the pressure and start enjoying the wonderful thing that the Mod will and would be if there was not this constant nagging in the background. Enough is enough.
The part I have emboldened and underlined worries me. :eek:
1. My friends friend.
Second hand information is like Chinese Whispers.
Have we seen any Official from the Mod Organisers posting here about the subject?
2. Bribery......
I was shocked when I read this.
The Mod is supposed to be a Cultural Event, promoting Gaelic song, arts, literature and culture. The setting of it should not be demeaned by the thought that if your town is chosen, the income from holding the event there should considered a bribe to erect Gaelic Sign Posts ect.
The people and towns of Caithness will welcome the Mod and relish the music, arts etc which it will bring but there should not be an expectation or imposition that the county should change it's road signage.
If you wish to promote your culture you show what it can provide and how to enjoy it.
It should not be seen as a means to blackmail an area into making changes it would seem the majority don't want.
At present I am not seeing the enjoyment when there is continuous pressure for change.
Stop the arguing and the pressure and start enjoying the wonderful thing that the Mod will and would be if there was not this constant nagging in the background. Enough is enough.
Well said Janifar and I agree with what you said 100% any form of a Bribe would be a NO NO !!!
.
Aaldtimer
10-May-09, 02:00
...my friend...my friend's friend...his friend....Sheesh! What a lot of of bull![disgust]
What Gaelic street signs LOL? The Royal National Mod hasn't been to Glasgow? Has it? I hope not or I will feel foolish.
I thought it had been held in Partick?
I think there are still a few Gaelic signs around there, the train station, etc.
What Gaelic street signs LOL? The Royal National Mod hasn't been to Glasgow? Has it? I hope not or I will feel foolish.
According to this article, the Mod was in Glasgow in 1958:-
http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/mod-2008-preview/Adjudicator-Alma-recalls-medal-win.4562265.jp
A bit of a mystery, as the wifie doesn't look a day over 40 ;)
The Mod was held in Glasgow with venues such as Partick Burgh Hall, Govan Town Hall round about 1990.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
10-May-09, 23:45
We've all heard it said that people can be in favour of the Mod but against Gaelic road signs and that's ok with the people in charge of the Mod.
Well......
I have spent this evening with a friend of the person who's in charge of where the Mod is held. He says that person is furious with the people of Caithness and despite public statements to the contrary he wants to move the Mod away from Thurso. I was told I should consult the chair of the organising committee of the Thurso Mod for confirmation of this!
As far as I can tell, none of these people from Central Scotland know anything about Caithness. [evil]
Furious with the people of Caithness.
They like their music,thats what the Mod is.Yer right about the Central Scotland thing they don't know nothing about Caithness.
All Caithness folk ride around on Highland coo's.Wild Haggis roam large around the hillsides.The Beatles are No.1 in the charts with "I want to hold your hand".The post arrives every second week by horse and cart.
Well Southern Scotland wake up and smell the coffee,cos oor good selves up here on the Far North are doing just fine thank ye very much!! :)
Aaldtimer
11-May-09, 02:32
Cedric, ever heard of the double negative?[disgust]
What Gaelic street signs LOL? The Royal National Mod hasn't been to Glasgow? Has it? I hope not or I will feel foolish.
Its been to Airdrie no bilingual signs their
highlandgael
11-May-09, 18:09
As a Caithness girl by birth and an Edinburgh woman now, it is great to keep up with the news up north through the Org.
Looking forward to many more interesting discussions.
Not sure what all the fuss is about with regard to road signs, it's not as though the Gaelic Plan says take all your signs down, have them redone and put up again - I think it's more a case of when a sign needs replaced, replace it in both English and Gaelic. My understanding of the history of the Gaelic language is that the 1872 Education Act practically wiped it out, stipulating that children were to be taught in English and punishing children for speaking Gaelic at school - even when it was their first language.
Caithness prides itself on its historical connection with the norse language, but i think that Gaelic was spoken by a majority of the population at the turn of the last century - anyone have the figures from the census to support or contradict this?
Welcome, HighlandGael!
We've had so many threads on this topic on the org now that even the most seasoned advocates for both sides are becoming weary... We've managed to agree on many things. Here's a wee summary so that you can catch up:
Yes, Gaelic was spoken in the county around the turn of last century - most of the Gaelic speakers lived in the SW of the county on the border with Sutherland & many others were visitors who came with the herring and stayed for short periods each year in the coastal towns.
Interestingly all the records of who spoke Gaelic when in Caithness are written in English. There is no written Gaelic record because the local ministers all wrote in English, even the ones who also spoke Gaelic.
The placenames of Caithness clearly show the area (in the SW) which was inhabited by the Gaels and the area (in the NE) which was always inhabited by non-Gaels. Even the Gaels call Caithness "The land of the non-Gaels" because of the presence of these non-Gaelic-speaking Norse neighbours.
The non-Gaelic part of Caithness was, for a while, along with Orkney and Shetland, part of the Norse kingdom.
The Gaels and the non-Gaels in Caithness have got along quite nicely without any need for cultural invasion until now.
The history of settlement in Caithness goes back 3000 years or more. In this context, the time Gaelic was spoken here was the blink of an eye.
Many of us who live here love Gaelic music.
Most of us who live here are looking forward to the Mod with a mixture of curiosity and positive anticipation.
Most of us who live here don't want any Gaelic on the roadsigns in the historically non-Gaelic part of the county where the placenames are of Norse derivation.
Almost all of us who live here do not speak any Gaelic.
Welcome again, HighlandGael - you'll love the org!:D
The Mod was held in Glasgow with venues such as Partick Burgh Hall, Govan Town Hall round about 1990.
Does that mean Crayola was wrong then?
I would Yes it does look as if Crayola was incorrect.
The whole idea of Caithness being Blackmailed, put up Bilingual Road Signs or the MOD will be moved else-where, is just not on. If it were up to me I would, in a polite way, tell them exactly what they could with their MOD.
Aaldtimer
12-May-09, 03:07
What happened to Weeboyagee post demolishing the OP's "news"? :confused
weeboyagee
12-May-09, 08:46
What happened to Weeboyagee post demolishing the OP's "news"? :confused
In response to Aaldtimer, I and a long time friend on the .org removed our posts shortly after we posted them. I apologise for what may have seemed a rant, but I don’t apologise for the content – it was factual – from the knowledge that I have of the National Mod both inside and outside Caithness. And the .org friend reminded me of how easy it is to stoop to the level of argument when drawn into it – it was a good lesson – for both of us on reflection.
We should all be careful of what we say unless we are absolutely sure of the facts of the matter, and I assure you, the facts of the matter that have started off this thread are so seriously wrong that anyone’s friend’s friend should be very careful of what they say because there are those close to the face of things that know a lot more than may be being stated here. Anyone in such a professional position involved with the National Mod making comment the way that is being stated on here is very much out of touch with how Caithness fits in with the An Comunn organisation.
Check here for more info www.acgmod.org
The fact is that the county looks forward to the Mod coming and it will be a great festival to get involved in!
WBG :cool:
pinotnoir
12-May-09, 10:20
What is needed regarding Gaelic and Caithness are thoroughly researched peer reviewed papers with references and sources, anything else is opinion and conjecture which is of little value to future historians seeking facts.
We've managed to agree on many things. Here's a wee summary so that you can catch up:
Yes, Gaelic was spoken in the county around the turn of last century - most of the Gaelic speakers lived in the SW of the county on the border with Sutherland & many others were visitors who came with the herring and stayed for short periods each year in the coastal towns.
Interestingly all the records of who spoke Gaelic when in Caithness are written in English. There is no written Gaelic record because the local ministers all wrote in English, even the ones who also spoke Gaelic.
The placenames of Caithness clearly show the area (in the SW) which was inhabited by the Gaels and the area (in the NE) which was always inhabited by non-Gaels. Even the Gaels call Caithness "The land of the non-Gaels" because of the presence of these non-Gaelic-speaking Norse neighbours.
The non-Gaelic part of Caithness was, for a while, along with Orkney and Shetland, part of the Norse kingdom.
The Gaels and the non-Gaels in Caithness have got along quite nicely without any need for cultural invasion until now.
The history of settlement in Caithness goes back 3000 years or more. In this context, the time Gaelic was spoken here was the blink of an eye.
Many of us who live here love Gaelic music.
Most of us who live here are looking forward to the Mod with a mixture of curiosity and positive anticipation.
Most of us who live here don't want any Gaelic on the roadsigns in the historically non-Gaelic part of the county where the placenames are of Norse derivation.
Almost all of us who live here do not speak any Gaelic.
I must have missed something - what did we (everyone) agree to ?
While I can have respect your point of view and your spirited defense of norse culture, I cant say that I agree with the spin nor the unnecessarily provocative language.
I definately missed the plan for a Gaelic Invasion !
- the idea seems strangely reminiscent of an episode of South Park where cartman tries to liberate the USA from a chinese invasion by holding up a Chinese restaurant !
<snip> I apologise for what may have seemed a rant...........
The fact is that the county looks forward to the Mod coming and it will be a great festival to get involved in!
I read your post before you deleted it and don't think you have anything to apologise for.
Roll on the 2010 Mod. I'm looking forward to buying you a pint from Wetherspoons while you serenade the ladies in the Market Square. ;)
Alice in Blunderland
12-May-09, 19:43
I read your post before you deleted it and don't think you have anything to apologise for.
Roll on the 2010 Mod. I'm looking forward to buying you a pint from Wetherspoons while you serenade the ladies in the Market Square.
Grieff Moira if the ladies start buying him drink we'll never shut him up.
Talk about singing for his supper....................... ;)
On the Gaelic signs and MOD..... its timing that the MOD and the signs are being discussed nothing else, no hidden agenda, no blackmail, nothing as remotely like it .............just unfortunate timing that the Highland Council Gaelic plan involves new dual signs and woops the MODs coming to Caithness.
As for the money generated................bring it on about time we had something else to complain about. I mean how could these people even possibly think of coming here and spending such an amount of money :rolleyes: off to Inverness with them.:p
What is needed regarding Gaelic and Caithness are thoroughly researched peer reviewed papers with references and sources, anything else is opinion and conjecture which is of little value to future historians seeking facts.
I suggest you have a look at the work of Dr Doreen Waugh, working for Edinburgh University.
Grieff Moira if the ladies start buying him drink we'll never shut him up.
Talk about singing for his supper...
Alice, you need to read more carefully.
I said I would buy weeboyagee a pint. I did not consider placing myself in the circle of ladies vying for his attention, but now that you mention it I'm off to practise my Gaelic (among other things). :lol:
Each, I think I said we agreed on many things, not on everything! HighlandGael has a lot of backstory to catch up on - feel free to tell it in your own words if you can be bothered.:D
And I didn't actually say anything about a "Gaelic Invasion" either - you added the word Gaelic to the word invasion all by yourself.;)
Alice in Blunderland
13-May-09, 07:03
I did not consider placing myself in the circle of ladies vying for his attention, but now that you mention it I'm off to practise my Gaelic (among other things). :lol:
Erm Moira forgot to ask are you single.................... ;)
As you know Ive b een trying for ages to erm sort him up with someone to look after him. :lol:
As a Caithness girl by birth and an Edinburgh woman now, it is great to keep up with the news up north through the Org.
Looking forward to many more interesting discussions.
Not sure what all the fuss is about with regard to road signs, it's not as though the Gaelic Plan says take all your signs down, have them redone and put up again - I think it's more a case of when a sign needs replaced, replace it in both English and Gaelic. My understanding of the history of the Gaelic language is that the 1872 Education Act practically wiped it out, stipulating that children were to be taught in English and punishing children for speaking Gaelic at school - even when it was their first language.It pains me to say this of a Caithness girl but you are showing the lack of knowledge and understanding I was complaining about. Gaelic was declining rapidly in Caithness long before 1872.
Caithness prides itself on its historical connection with the norse language, but i think that Gaelic was spoken by a majority of the population at the turn of the last century - anyone have the figures from the census to support or contradict this?You are quite wrong. According to the census of 1891 the percentage of Gaelic speakers in Caithness was 11%, the rest spoke Scots English. You have to go back to 1800 to get to 50% Gaelic. There was presumably a Gaelic majority before that.
It's 1 or 2% today.
I thought it had been held in Partick?
I think there are still a few Gaelic signs around there, the train station, etc.
The Mod was held in Glasgow with venues such as Partick Burgh Hall, Govan Town Hall round about 1990.Oh good grief, was it really? I live close to Partick and you're right, there are Gaelic signs at the station. Well, there used to be Gaelic signs there, the whole place has been a building site for so long I've avoided it like the plague for several years. I moved to Glasgow after 1990. That's my excuse. :o
Come to think of it, there are Gaelic signs all over Queen Street station. I'm not sure about Central. I'll take a trip there and have a look tomorrow when I'm in town.
Its been to Airdrie no bilingual signs theirMy pal from Coatbridge has been telling me this all week. She's proud of it and despite the occasionally poisonous local rivalry between Coatbridge and Airdrie I can't shut her up. :roll:
:D
Erm Moira forgot to ask are you single.........
As you know Ive b een trying for ages to erm sort him up with someone to look after him.
Alice, I'm not single but that won't stop me welcoming the 2010 Mod to Caithness and I'll definitely buy WBG that pint. :D
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