View Full Version : Gurkha Betrayal .. again.
Gene Hunt
24-Apr-09, 11:18
Our Goverment has done it again .. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8014265.stm ..
Of the five points of required eligibility one can only be met by less than 100 Gurkha Officers. Having been involved in this fight I am absolutely fizzing about this. It seems that service to your country means nothing these days compared to just turning up at Dover knowing just one word of English .. "Asylum", Having worked with these guys while in Signals in the TA I know the type of men they are and I would rather live in a street full of them than some of the dregs we allow in these days.
The Medal I got after my Bosnia Tour has just gone in the post to Gordon Brown. Along with precise instructions on where to put it.
ciderally
24-Apr-09, 11:27
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8014265.stm
This is so sad ....this should not be...everyone else has been allowed to stay in the U.K....willy nilly... but the men who have defended these shores, have had to go to court time after time, just to get throw'n a few crumbs
quote from the Gurkha's lawyer....
"This government, should hang their head in shame so low that their forehead should touch their boots"
I couldn't agree more, these are honorable men who deserve so much better, is there a Downing Street petition or something we can do to make our feelings count?
kmahon2001
24-Apr-09, 11:47
quote from the Gurkha's lawyer....
"This government, should hang their head in shame so low that their forehead should touch their boots"
And so they should hang their heads. This is totally disgraceful, when preachers of hate against this country are allowed to stay, how can the Government be so disloyal to these soldiers who have showed nothing but loyalty in defence of this country. They should all be allowed in, including their family members, without any kind of restrictions. These brave people would enrich our country and our culture and I for one would be honoured to welcome them.
Could n't agree more, have just read the news item and I am ashamed to be british .
These are foreign nationals who volunteer, have fought many brave campaigns as part of the armed forces and they are being treated worse than illegal immigrants.
Gordon Brown and your cronies where is your humanity?
It's all very well to aid those less off in this world but what about those we owe an ernormous debt too?
Get your priorities right just once please.
Tighsonas4
24-Apr-09, 12:48
these men were treated as the best of soldiers during the war
our scottish troops that came home last were dumped at the side of the airport when there loved was somewhere to greet them
more or less left sitting at the side of the road until they were picked up tony
neilsermk1
24-Apr-09, 13:07
I just cant believe the governments response to this when you consider some of the scum they let in,[mad]
Gene Hunt
24-Apr-09, 13:24
More info and petition details here .. http://www.gurkhajustice.org.uk/
I print the sheets off and once filled in post them in to the campaign so they can be handed in at Number 10.
These guys deserve to be supported in their right to stay. What this Goverment has done is cynically define the requirements to exclude the vast majority of Gurkha's. I spoke to an ex colleague about an hour ago who was a Gurkha Officer after Sandhurst and he was furious. He works in Canada now and his co-workers didnt believe him when he explained the situation, they all thought that Britian looked after their own.
They missed the point. New Labour care about everyone BUT their own.
When Sir Ralph Turner MC, 3rd Queen Alexandra's Own Gurkha Rifles, describing the Gurkhas he fought with in World War he said, "Bravest of the brave, most generous of the generous, never had a country more faithful friends than you."
I had the privilege of working with Gurkhas twice during my career. You couldn't meet a more loyal bunch of guys. Most of them would not qualify under this new scheme because they could only serve up to 15 years. Few would win a medal for gallantry although many did serve in the Falklands War.
I despair of this government and the mealy-mouthed numpties that are part of it.
This is just ridiculous and shocking. These soldiers should be allowed to stay here. Anything less just is not aceptable
It does show you how out of touch this government is.
They served Britain and there should be no question that they should be aloud to stay in Britain - if anyone has earned that right they have.
Having served with these fine men in the Far East, it makes me ashamed of our so-called leaders, the Home Office has given a number of points that must be met, for example those who have served for 20 years get the right to stay.. Hmm seeing that only Officers can serve more than 15 that one's dead in the water - what pen-pusher thought of that one? And most Ghurkhas would not have served in the UK for three years or gained a bravery award.. total disgusting nonsense written by a bunch of no hopers sitting on their backsides.. (What's new I ask myself)
Even the law realised the government were wrong; 'In September 2008, the High Court ruled that immigration rules denying Ghurkhas who retired before 1997 - about 36,000 - an automatic right to stay in the UK were unlawful'.
"The one group of people that has never let this country down has been let down today in a manner which is truly appalling."
"This government, Mr Woolas, should hang their head in shame so low that their forehead should touch their boots."
"This is a disgrace and a betrayal of our armed forces and our veterans."
Fight and die for our country, don't forget these Ghurkhas are fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq "A soldier from 2nd Battalion The Royal Ghurkha Rifles has been killed by enemy fire in Afghanistan"
26 Victoria crosses; "Bravest of the brave, most generous of the generous, never had a country more faithful friends than you"
Just consider that The population of Nepal was estimated at just over 28,000,000 in July 2006, yet more than 200,000 fought in the two world wars and in the past 50 years. During the two World Wars 43,000 young men lost their lives fighting for us, that's hell of a figure .
Oh yes Asylum seekers, you know those one's who sit in Calais hoping to stow away on a cross-channel truck?, land in England climb out beaming 'Asylum' no, got no passports, so can't deport em:
Including dependants, provisional figures show that there were 30,545 asylum applications in 2008, 8 per cent higher than 2007 (28,300). This compares with an estimated decrease of 2 per cent in the rest of the EU27 Says it all don't it?[disgust]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8014265.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8014265.stm)
Gene Hunt
24-Apr-09, 19:01
I suppose if the Goverment let the Gurkhas stay there wont be enough room for the likes of Binyan Mohammed, Abu Hamza and all the young Somali men creating a mini crimewave where my sister in law lives in London.
I have written to my MP to register my disgust and will write to the broadsheets over the weekend, I have seen some despicable acts in my time by this morally bankrupt Goverment but this sinks lower than I can stand. The next New Labour activist that comes to my door is in for a shock.
Mrs Bucket
24-Apr-09, 19:02
It appears you need to be a threat to this country and then you are welcomed with open arms. When is someone going to stand up and do something for the decent honest people
percy toboggan
24-Apr-09, 19:58
Gurkhas belong in their own land, given generous pensions by their standards.
To allow them all rights of residency could open up the floodgates for other groups.
You might not have noticed but Britain is full up.
If the good folk of Caithness - where there is at least more room - wish to adopt the Gurkhas and provide them with sustenance into deep old age then fair doo's. I have no objection.
These are fighting me who like a fight. We utilised their skills and they should be well rewarded - short of being offered homes on a crowded island.Sentiment has no place in decisions of this nature.
We have had this discussion before - you may disagree with me but my view is a consistent one. A few will agree but lack the nerve to say so, swept up in a tide of emotion.
Here we go again; "Gurkhas belong in their own land" "Britain is full up" "open up the floodgates" oh it's Percy.. what's next? 'rivers of blood'?
I was attached to the Ghurkas at their Training Camp in Kluang, Malaysia 1968 and 1969 and in 1970 worked with them in deep jungle during exercise Bersatu Padu in Malaysia. I was proud to receive a commendation from the Surgeon Commander for saving the life of a Ghurkha when a tree fell on him, and a Lt John Frost got the Air Force Cross for lifting him out of the jungle canopy, I was most impressed with the stoicism of the Ghurkha who although having all of his skull flesh ripped off was still able to grimace a smile .. I have a personal Ghurkha friend of very long standing living in Jersey, so suppose I have the right to say I know (maybe more than most here?) that this race is far removed from those that come to our shores and sometimes blow themselves up.
Do not tar every one with the same brush. Having lived in 30 countries during my life and lived and worked with many different races and creeds on their ground, gives more insight into what people are about, than maybe reading it in the tabloids, or judging a race simply by those who live nearby. I am not xenophobic.
'Sentiment has no place in decisions of this nature' Sentiment?; Almost 50,000 Ghurkhas have died in action and 150,000 have been seriously injured in the service of the British Army, yeh, I've certainly got sentiment..
I also found England too crowded and so moved to another country; Scotland, so that's couple of places freed up. I note your postings Percy, and maybe we'll see you up here too? there's only 125 per square km up here you know.
'swept up in a tide of emotion' - I 'spose it does effect some, but it's only my cosmopolitan opinion - gained from personal experience - that causes me to state it's the only race I really respect.. show me a man who really knows a Ghurkha and he'll say the same
Anyway hope your hip's getting better, I've had a replacement knee, me hip will be next (after me other knee)
Gene Hunt
25-Apr-09, 15:36
Gurkhas belong in their own land, given generous pensions by their standards.
To allow them all rights of residency could open up the floodgates for other groups.
You might not have noticed but Britain is full up.
If the good folk of Caithness - where there is at least more room - wish to adopt the Gurkhas and provide them with sustenance into deep old age then fair doo's. I have no objection.
These are fighting me who like a fight. We utilised their skills and they should be well rewarded - short of being offered homes on a crowded island.Sentiment has no place in decisions of this nature.
We have had this discussion before - you may disagree with me but my view is a consistent one. A few will agree but lack the nerve to say so, swept up in a tide of emotion.
First .. Hope you are getting better .. ;)
So you are saying is that Britian is full up ??
No problem, lets just kick out Binyan Mohammed for a start. And Abu Hamza and his criminal clan and supoorters. And the protesters who protested in Luton at the Troops Parade. And all the young Somali men who are making my sister in law's life hell in London with their mini crimewave. Lets just stop letting anyone who turns up at Dover knowing the only word of English they need .. Asylum, in. Because unlike the Gurkhas they have given nothing to this Country and in many cases display open hostility to it. Therefore they should be first out to make room for them.
How on earth would giving the Gurkhas a home allow other groups to claim for residency ??, name me another Group being treated this way who have given anything like the service to the country these Gurkhas have ?? .. the very reason there is such outrage at their treatment is because of the service they have given. The fact that New Labour will accept responsibility for that Ethiopian idiot who claims to have been tortured while treating Gurkhas this way disgusts me. I feel strongly enough about their treatement I have returned my Bosnia Medal. I am in the TA but when Gordon Brown and his fellow scum dishonour them they dishonour me. In fact my letter of resignation was posted this morning.
Sentiment has EVERYTHING to do with this. Along with Honour. The Gurkhas have served with honour, 26 Victoria Crosses, 50,000 dead and 150,000 seriously wounded in defence of British Policy. The fact that we openly accept the dregs of almost every country on earth while treating the Gurkha's this way disgusts me. If people serve this country they should be allowed to stay here, what is wrong with that ??, in my eyes they have paid for that right in blood many times over. And do you know what ??, I would have them as neighbour's any day of the week.
Sorry Percy, your view is just wrong.
Tighsonas4
25-Apr-09, 17:36
[quote=bekisman;539160]Here we go again; "Gurkhas belong in their own land" "Britain is full up" "open up the floodgates" oh it's Percy.. what's next? 'rivers of blood'?
I was attached to the Ghurkas at their Training Camp in Kluang, Malaysia 1968 and 1969 and in 1970 worked with them in deep jungle during exercise Bersatu Padu in Malaysia. I was proud to receive a commendation from the Surgeon Commander for saving the life of a Ghurkha when a tree fell on him, and a Lt John Frost got the Air Force Cross for lifting him out of the jungle canopy, I was most impressed with the stoicism of the Ghurkha who although having all of his skull flesh ripped off was still able to grimace a smile .. I have a personal Ghurkha friend of very long standing living in Jersey, so suppose I have the right to say I know (maybe more than most here?) that this race is far removed from those that come to our shores and sometimes blow themselves up.
Do not tar every one with the same brush. Having lived in 30 countries during my life and lived and worked with many different races and creeds on their ground, gives more insight into what people are about, than maybe reading it in the tabloids, or judging a race simply by those who live nearby. I am not xenophobic.
'Sentiment has no place in decisions of this nature' Sentiment?; Almost 50,000 Ghurkhas have died in action and 150,000 have been seriously injured in the service of the British Army, yeh, I've certainly got sentiment..
I also found England too crowded and so moved to another country; Scotland, so that's couple of places freed up. I note your postings Percy, and maybe we'll see you up here too? there's only 125 per square km up here you know.
'swept up in a tide of emotion' - I 'spose it does effect some, but it's only my cosmopolitan opinion - gained from personal experience - that causes me to state it's the only race I really respect.. show me a man who really knows a Ghurkha and he'll say the same
thanks for that bekisman ,just the sort of post i was looking for regards tony
please sign up for this great cause
http://www.gurkhajustice.org.uk/
Percy you are wrong - i agree with Gene Hunt ( dont all laugh at once!) . Apparently The gurkhas dont have the same rights as other commonwealth soldiers. It seems to me that's the change that is needed. The government should immediately give these brave men the same rights that other overseas soldiers get. No more no less. Today!!!!
ywindythesecond
25-Apr-09, 23:33
please sign up for this great cause
http://www.gurkhajustice.org.uk/
Thanks for that Golach, just signed it. My late brother had immense respect for the Ghurkhas he served with.
ywy2
Thanks for that Golach, just signed it. My late brother had immense respect for the Ghurkhas he served with.
ywy2
you get an e-mail from Joanna Lumley :D
Gurkhas belong in their own land, given generous pensions by their standards.
To allow them all rights of residency could open up the floodgates for other groups.
You might not have noticed but Britain is full up.
If the good folk of Caithness - where there is at least more room - wish to adopt the Gurkhas and provide them with sustenance into deep old age then fair doo's. I have no objection.
These are fighting me who like a fight. We utilised their skills and they should be well rewarded - short of being offered homes on a crowded island.Sentiment has no place in decisions of this nature.
We have had this discussion before - you may disagree with me but my view is a consistent one. A few will agree but lack the nerve to say so, swept up in a tide of emotion.
Having served with the Gurkhas for a part of my 25 years in the armed forces I would like to state that these noble sevicemen who served us with their lives SHOULD get all that they deserve from us, and if they want to live anywhere in this country I for one would welcome them with open arms.
percy toboggan
26-Apr-09, 09:54
.... that causes me to state it's the only race I really respect.. show me a man who really knows a Ghurkha and he'll say the same
I actually respect all races but feel for the most part that too much mingling does few people any good, especially the poorer in material terms.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by the above statement.
You may think my opinion wrong, but it is as valid as yours.
We have all trodden different paths. If I had put myself in the pay of a Government which got me involved in all kinds of military action alongside Gurkhas then I may feel differently.
I didn't, because that's not my style. I'd only fight for a cause I personally believed in. Perhaps such a cause might be ensuring the viability of an island of rock which is taking on the characteristic of sponge. I'd have to judge the case on its merits for my safety and longevity would never be compromised for money, faux notions of national pride and militaristic longing. Only my families direct ongoing welfare could tempt me to take up arms for Politicians, much less H.M. Queen and the idea of her flipping country.
The average Gurkha soldier is made of much sterner mettle than myself.
Whilst I respect their appetite for a scrap I can't help feeling it's only an accident of history which puts them on our side. Anyone who is eager to launch into battle for money, in the pay of a foreign Government is a mercenary, in my book.
So, in conclusion, the whining of such upper class ladies as Joanna Lumley, who has never had to wait for an NHS operation, queue for a council house, or try to get their kids into the schools of their choice has little effect upon me. I respect her right to champion any cause she wishes, athough I reserve the right to criticise.
These ex-soldiers belong in their homelands and deserve a decent pension which could help to spread wealth amongst their less fortunate brethren.
Britain might not be full up, but England certainly is. Get your independence up there if you want such drastic policies and offer Scottish passports to all and sundry if you like. Just leave a bit of room for an English retiree in seven years time or sooner, who has as much right to a tiny plot of the northern bit of this island as any of you.
(thanks Gene, I am getting better slowly)
Sorry Percy, I totally disagree with you on this issue. The UK governments now and in the past have welcomed these Nepalese nationals into our forces, and I believe they are paid a lesser wage than our regular forces, who are made up of Tongan's, Fijian's, Samoan's and I believe many from the Caribbean Islands by the way, who are allowed to stay in the UK on finishing their service.
So why not the Gurkha's, they bleed and die in the service of the UK, why should they be treated differently.
Joanna Lumley, as far as I know is the child of a Gurkha Officer, that is why she is in the forefront of this campaign, and why not?
See the link below, that shows the bravery and dedication, of these wee smart, and brave men, a great example to many.
http://www.nepalesekhukuri.com/vcs.html
"..that causes me to state it's the only race I really respect.. show me a man who really knows a Ghurkha and he'll say the same"
Percy: 'I'm not quite sure what you mean by the above statement'. - come on Percy, you know that was quoted from my own post, but seeing you asked, suppose these comments taken only from Org posts should explain a bit, it's a pity you've not met them:
"Having worked with these guys while in Signals in the TA I know the type of men they are and I would rather live in a street full of them than some of the dregs we allow in these days."
"I had the privilege of working with Gurkhas twice during my career. You couldn't meet a more loyal bunch of guys"
"My late brother had immense respect for the Ghurkhas he served with."
"Having served with the Gurkhas for a part of my 25 years in the armed forces I would like to state that these noble servicemen who served us with their lives SHOULD get all that they deserve from us, and if they want to live anywhere in this country I for one would welcome them with open arms."
Of course your opinion is a valid as ours, just trying to emphasise that these folk are not your average. 'Mercenaries'?, far enough if you want to be picky. But basically couple hundred years ago we tried to kill them and they tried to kill us, ended up mutual respect, and they have done the dirty work..
Percy: ' If I had put myself in the pay of a Government which got me involved in all kinds of military action alongside Gurkhas then I may feel differently I didn't, because that's not my style. I'd only fight for a cause I personally believed in'. Thought you joined the RAF and came out after a couple weeks/months, might be wrong of course?
"So, in conclusion, the whining of such upper class ladies as Joanna Lumley, who has never had to wait for an NHS operation, queue for a council house, or try to get their kids into the schools of their choice has little effect upon me".. might be so Percy, but I've had to wait for a NHS operation, and queue for a Council house and my kids went to a school they were made to go to, but that has nothing to do with it, I'm not class-conscious.
Good luck to anyone who gets off their bum and makes something of themselves. As her father served with the Gurkhas when she lived (and was born) in India, fair do's.
"These ex-soldiers belong in their homelands"
A few quotes. *Question;"what is the stance on the Gurkas, will they be allowed to stay in the country or be treated like the rest of the immigrants":
'The Ghurkas, and all legal immigrants who wish to stand with us under our flag will have full citizenship rights. Agreed, those who fight alongside the British in times of war have earned our respect and should enjoy the right to settle here if they so wish. Am really glad that is the stance on the ghurka situation. anyone who stands shoulder to shoulder to fight for our country deserves nothing less
I still well up whenever I see an old Ghurka soldier... they absorbed OUR way of life without horrendous demands and quietly went about the horrid business of war, at which they excelled."
*British National Party's website
Good to read it.
gurkhas belong in their own land, given generous pensions by their standards.
To allow them all rights of residency could open up the floodgates for other groups.
You might not have noticed but britain is full up.
If the good folk of caithness - where there is at least more room - wish to adopt the gurkhas and provide them with sustenance into deep old age then fair doo's. I have no objection.
These are fighting me who like a fight. We utilised their skills and they should be well rewarded - short of being offered homes on a crowded island.sentiment has no place in decisions of this nature.
We have had this discussion before - you may disagree with me but my view is a consistent one. A few will agree but lack the nerve to say so, swept up in a tide of emotion.
belong in there own land!??? Who 's land have they been fighting for if they wish to fight for us they should, without question, be allowed to stay.
Whitewater
27-Apr-09, 00:12
'percy toboggan' I have great respect for you and your opinions, but I can not agree with you on this one.(nothing personal percy, just a difference of opinion)
Unlike several of the members who have posted on this thread, I have never been a member of the British Forces, and therefore I do not have first hand experience of serving with these brave men. However, I have read about them, their selfless bravery, and exploits, all in support of our great nation, and by the comments I have read from several of the members of the org, on this thread, the praise lavished on them was well deserved, but never enough to repay the dept we owe to them
When I now see many people being allowed into this country who are here simply to brainwash and recruit our young 2nd/3rd genration Islamic men for terrorist operations against this country it makes me sick to think that our Government and the PC brigade welcome them and resist all attempts to throw them out. While the brave Ghurkhas who fought and died for us can't have the same rights as these wasters. Seems to me you have to be an enemy of the state to get anything from this country now. It is indeed a sad state of affairs when the people running this country do not know, and fail to recognise the dept we owe to the honourable Ghurkhas.
This is another of those topics that I've taken time to think on before commenting. It's complex and I'm not very smart.
I was trying to draw a parellel between the Gurkhas and any other force and the closest thing I could thing of was the French Foreign Legion. But the Foreign Legion is really nothing like the Gurkhas. It really is a mercenary force.
The Gurkhas on the other hand are a quirk of history, a legacy from the British East India Company taking on locals for its own purposes and later political absorbtion after the adoption of India and Nepal as colonies.
Today, the soldiers recruited to the force are the elite of the elite from the many thousands of volunteers from Nepal to take just a couple of hundred places in the regiment that are available.
I would humbly suggest that this recruitment process in itself is far more rigorous than any examination by HMRC on a boat person found in Dover Port.
Then the successful applicants are plunged into any and all conflicts that our "Oh so wise" leaders choose and gain and preserve a reputation of such respect from our own home grown soldiers and the military administration that you will never hear a word against them.
I challenge anyone to find a bad example of Ghurka behaviour on YouTube that has so exposed our own "finest" and more those of those in our "special realtionship".
So finally, I believe that anyone rejecting a Ghurkha soldier and his close family the right to reside in the UK upon completion of his service is an ignorant bigot unworthy of receiving the respect of any child in the United Kingdom, especially Scotland where valour and honour are properly respected.
percy toboggan
27-Apr-09, 10:55
Intersting comments and I respect all of your opinions.
As regards immigration, and whether or not we need more of it I reckon two wrongs don't make a right. Just because we have allowed hate preachers and feckless folk , as well as raising our own bunch of layabouts does not mean we should rush to extend a welcome to these men who are undoubtedly a cut above the usual.
We have to draw the line somewhere I'm afraid. Nobody has yet told me why they want to live here. When their pension would elevate their lifestyle in their own country. Why do people aspire to this lump of rock which enjoys a miserable climate for the most part - although the climate is unlikkely to kill you of course.
This ethnic group often enjoy great longevity , and the implications for extended social care are obvious. They might well be in front of your elderly relatives a place in any care queue.
This sounds selfish and it is. It is high time we put the British first.
As for quoting the BNP website well, that's fine...but when I look to them for answers I'll come clean about it. They can say what they like to appeal to popular causes and for now are a mere (necessary) conduit for anti-Government protest.
I did indeed join the RAF bekisman, as a daft teenager in 1969. Only because there was no hint of hostility on the horizon, I needed something to do and it seemed a good idea at the time. It wasn't - that's why I bought myself out for twenty quid after just three months. The world has changed since then, so have I.
In closing, my views on this issue might surprise some who often agree with me. That's fine. I'm not averse to thinking outside the box on every matter and do not hold formulaic predictable opinions. Most of you don't either. Disagreement is healthy.
We should never forget that.
Britain is becoming a polarised nation. Although I relaise I am probably firmly in the minority camp with the Gurkhas.
Gene Hunt
27-Apr-09, 11:13
Post Deleted.
Content in the post below.
Gene Hunt
27-Apr-09, 11:30
Intersting comments and I respect all of your opinions.
As regards immigration, and whether or not we need more of it I reckon two wrongs don't make a right. Just because we have allowed hate preachers and feckless folk , as well as raising our own bunch of layabouts does not mean we should rush to extend a welcome to these men who are undoubtedly a cut above the usual.
We have to draw the line somewhere I'm afraid. Nobody has yet told me why they want to live here. When their pension would elevate their lifestyle in their own country. Why do people aspire to this lump of rock which enjoys a miserable climate for the most part - although the climate is unlikkely to kill you of course.
This ethnic group often enjoy great longevity , and the implications for extended social care are obvious. They might well be in front of your elderly relatives a place in any care queue.
This sounds selfish and it is. It is high time we put the British first.
As for quoting the BNP website well, that's fine...but when I look to them for answers I'll come clean about it. They can say what they like to appeal to popular causes and for now are a mere (necessary) conduit for anti-Government protest.
I did indeed join the RAF bekisman, as a daft teenager in 1969. Only because there was no hint of hostility on the horizon, I needed something to do and it seemed a good idea at the time. It wasn't - that's why I bought myself out for twenty quid after just three months. The world has changed since then, so have I.
In closing, my views on this issue might surprise some who often agree with me. That's fine. I'm not averse to thinking outside the box on every matter and do not hold formulaic predictable opinions. Most of you don't either. Disagreement is healthy.
We should never forget that.
Britain is becoming a polarised nation. Although I relaise I am probably firmly in the minority camp with the Gurkhas.
I'll tell you why.
Because they feel a kinship with the country they serve. They obviously have more feeling for this "lump of rock" than you do. They are willing to defend it, were you ?? You bought yourself out of the RAF after three months Percy, so it obviously didn't mean much to you. You have no idea what the bond is between those in uniform or what it means. I have a son in the Royal Marines and they see each other as a family. For a Gurkha it is an honour to serve in the British Army. They have to endure tests like clambering up hills laden down with rocks to gain the privilege of even starting training. They admire and respect the British and have served with distinction in many conflicts. They have died and bled for this country, and the fact that some think they are not worthy of being allowed to stay is a stain on us a country in my view.
Gurkha's are not takers. They dont expect to be given anything for free. They are some of the hardest workers I have ever seen and it is all done without complaint. They have never let us down when we needed them. Unlike us. Right now I feel we are not worthy of their service but you know what ??, they will never complain and will continue to serve. There motto is "Better to Die than be a Coward", we should look at them as an example I think.
You claim they might be in the line ahead of us for medical treatment. Fine then, they can have my place. I would be blinking honured to let them stand in front of me, they have been doing it for us for long enough. We should make room for them at the expense of others if need be. To claim that these men should not be treated differently from the scum and filth who want to live here just so they can hate us is something I personally think you should be deeply embarrased about.
Please Percy, take the time to read this and then you may understand the nature of a Gurkha despite the treatment we dish out .. http://www.vchero.co.uk/pb/wp_496a0c3b/wp_496a0c3b.html
You're right Percy, of course we're all entitled to our own views; our 'right of free speech' - helped there somewhat by almost 50,000 Ghurkhas who died in action and 150,000 seriously injured in the service of the British Army to help give you that right
" They might well be in front of your elderly relatives a place in any care queue." and |I'm sure my own folks would stand aside to let 'em as my father was certain in great respect of these men..
Won't go on Percy, but thought it interesting to see you tell us you :"I did indeed join the RAF bekisman, as a daft teenager in 1969 -I bought myself out for twenty quid after just three months." I'm a bit confused here, as the 'draft' finished in 1960, I joined up as a volunteer in 1963.
Oh well each to his own, hopefully I don't come under 'formulaic predictable opinions'..
See you up on this part of the rock in a few years!
percy toboggan
27-Apr-09, 14:23
It seems romanticism is now clouding the thread.
This island is a lump of rock I'm afraid. It's socially and economically in the doldrums, which suggests I like you, am between a rock and a hard place.
Flogging dead horses to those who devoutly disagree is not my business and it's not productive.
All I can add is any motto which states 'Better to die than be a Coward' is I'm afraid complete and utter nonsense from the ranks of winged back armchairs, handlebar moustaches and dinner tables where cruet sets are lined up as the glorious 600th...or whatever.
Unless my own liberty was directly threatened...
....I would rather be regarded a live coward than lamented as an expired 'hero'. Any day of the week. The money is better for a start.The motto is a mere platitude and ranks alongside Shankly and his 'football is more important than life or death' It means absolutely nothing apart from pointing out the nature of the man who dreamed it up....99% bullship.He probably had very shiney boots though so that's alright.
Bekisman - I also 'volunteered' in 1969 at the age of 18. I almost instantly regretted it. The basic training was quite hard but I was determined to see it through. My mouth got me into lumber more than once with ever so slightly sadistic corporals but by and large I toed the line. The trade training which followed was useless to me as I had no aptitude. I tired of sleeping in a room with sixteen other blokes and quickly realised that to get anywhere at all I'd need to sign up for at least nine years, instead of six. I missed home. The Beatles had a number one album - City were riding high - I did not like being marched almost everywhere - end of story for a twenty pound note.
Mind you, I would not have missed the experience - it changed me.
I'd be disappointed now if either of my children had joined the military but I respect and admire those who do. Admiration does not guarantee complete uncritical support though. If there were fewer fighting men there would be fewer wars.
I'd not want any of mine to be at the behest of corrupt and scheming politicians.
Gene: I may well follow your link later.
It seems romanticism is now clouding the thread.
This island is a lump of rock I'm afraid. It's socially and economically in the doldrums, which suggests I like you, am between a rock and a hard place.
Flogging dead horses to those who devoutly disagree is not my business and it's not productive.
All I can add is any motto which states 'Better to die than be a Coward' is I'm afraid complete and utter nonsense from the ranks of winged back armchairs, handlebar moustaches and dinner tables where cruet sets are lined up as the glorious 600th...or whatever.
Unless my own liberty was directly threatened...
....I would rather be regarded a live coward than lamented as an expired 'hero'. Any day of the week. The money is better for a start.The motto is a mere platitude and ranks alongside Shankly and his 'football is more important than life or death' It means absolutely nothing apart from pointing out the nature of the man who dreamed it up....99% bullship.He probably had very shiney boots though so that's alright.
Bekisman - I also 'volunteered' in 1969 at the age of 18. I almost instantly regretted it. The basic training was quite hard but I was determined to see it through. My mouth got me into lumber more than once with ever so slightly sadistic corporals but by and large I toed the line. The trade training which followed was useless to me as I had no aptitude. I tired of sleeping in a room with sixteen other blokes and quickly realised that to get anywhere at all I'd need to sign up for at least nine years, instead of six. I missed home. The Beatles had a number one album - City were riding high - I did not like being marched almost everywhere - end of story for a twenty pound note.
Mind you, I would not have missed the experience - it changed me.
I'd be disappointed now if either of my children had joined the military but I respect and admire those who do. Admiration does not guarantee complete uncritical support though. If there were fewer fighting men there would be fewer wars.
I'd not want any of mine to be at the behest of corrupt and scheming politicians.
Gene: I may well follow your link later.
having served our country both with these great fighting men and others i have nothing but contempt for your attuide towards this issue its got nothing to do with class, council houses or nhs waiting lists its about a small group of men who were and still are willing to lay down there life for people like you and all they ask is for a bit of respect for doing it and the right to live in the country that they have chosen to defend. do some research into this fine regiment, how they are treated and selected and then support what they have been fighting for all along if it wozent for these men and men like them this country could be a whole lot worse off.
When Sir Ralph Turner MC, 3rd Queen Alexandra's Own Gurkha Rifles, describing the Gurkhas he fought with in World War he said, "Bravest of the brave, most generous of the generous, never had a country more faithful friends than you."
I had the privilege of working with Gurkhas twice during my career. You couldn't meet a more loyal bunch of guys. Most of them would not qualify under this new scheme because they could only serve up to 15 years. Few would win a medal for gallantry although many did serve in the Falklands War.
I despair of this government and the mealy-mouthed numpties that are part of it.
Never a truer word said and anyone who cannot see why these fine men should stay in the country they have shown so much loyalty to is astounding i know its a free world and all that but COME ON WISE UP
Gene Hunt
27-Apr-09, 16:49
Percy .. fair enough. I respect you for sticking to your guns.
I just thank god you are in the minority. But if you seriously believe that if there were less fighting men there would be less wars you are incredibly naive. Wars are started by politicians. The Gurkha's motto is not a platitude to them, it is a code they live by and it has been proven by them on at least 50,000 occasions. If you had managed to finish your training instead of going home because you missed your mum and the football you would have come to understand the ethos of the Armed Forces.
My son is very shortly to become a fully fledged Royal Marine and I could not be prouder. I really hope he gets to serve with the Gurkha's at some point. Preferably slotting some of the British "activists" who have the right to stay here but who decide to journey to Afghanistan for a bit of Jihad.
Anyway .. Enjoyed the back and fore and I hope you get better soon.
percy toboggan
27-Apr-09, 19:40
If 'slotting' is the rather casual terminology given to killing then your Son is probably well schooled in such matters and will enjoy the life his father enjoyed before him.
I also 'enjoy the back and fore' and and 'sticking by my guns' - despite my lack of enthusiasm for matters military - has never been a problem.
I just follow my instincts.
I'm very proud of my Son too - he delivers garage equipment nationwide, He would never wish to 'slot' anyone on the orders of some Politician or Sandhurst schooled General. In fact unless his own liberty was threatened he'd tell em to sod orf!
He is not a highly trained killing machine, nor would I wish him to be. If it were his choice I'd probably find some measure of satisfaction in his commitment. Instead he is a gentle bear of a man who'd rather do someone a good turn than 'slot' them.
Neither he, nor I are keen on taking up arms to 'slot' people who offer no direct threat to this country...but that's just us it seems, given the paucity of fellow feeling on this matter.
We do have a Marine in the wider family who has served in Iraq, and Afghanistan. I supported him with mail and encouragement when he was on active service.
784 Pete: I will have to live with your contempt. It might be a struggle but I'll soldier on.
I have little else to say on this matter , so it's highly likely I won't revisit the thread.
Just a quick one, as this is getting boring.
Percy: "If there were fewer fighting men there would be fewer wars" I must admit I've been around a bit but that's one of the most silly things I've ever heard.
Gene Hunt
27-Apr-09, 20:52
If 'slotting' is the rather casual terminology given to killing then your Son is probably well schooled in such matters and will enjoy the life his father enjoyed before him.
I also 'enjoy the back and fore' and and 'sticking by my guns' - despite my lack of enthusiasm for matters military - has never been a problem.
I just follow my instincts.
I'm very proud of my Son too - he delivers garage equipment nationwide, He would never wish to 'slot' anyone on the orders of some Politician or Sandhurst schooled General. In fact unless his own liberty was threatened he'd tell em to sod orf!
He is not a highly trained killing machine, nor would I wish him to be. If it were his choice I'd probably find some measure of satisfaction in his commitment. Instead he is a gentle bear of a man who'd rather do someone a good turn than 'slot' them.
Neither he, nor I are keen on taking up arms to 'slot' people who offer no direct threat to this country...but that's just us it seems, given the paucity of fellow feeling on this matter.
We do have a Marine in the wider family who has served in Iraq, and Afghanistan. I supported him with mail and encouragement when he was on active service.
784 Pete: I will have to live with your contempt. It might be a struggle but I'll soldier on.
I have little else to say on this matter , so it's highly likely I won't revisit the thread.
Way over the line Percy. Way, way over the line.
I do believe you just referred to my son as some kind of killing machine and a puppet. I do believe you just sneered at me as well. I would not resort to insulting your son to argue any point, I would consider that well off limits.
If you read what I wrote in my post I suggested that those who already live here but decide to go to Afghanistan to fight deserve slotting. The so called "British" Activists who have been heard on Radio chatter fighting our troops. Those who do this and engage our troops are guilty of treason in my view and are therefore legitimate targets and are far from "not posing a direct threat", The fact these people have rights of residency that the Gurkha's don't have was my point.
I just wonder what your alleged Marine relative would make of your comments about my son though. Is that the way you see him ??
And I don't think you should ever use the phrases "I have no problem sticking to my guns" or "I'll soldier on", they are deeply ironic from someone who could not hack RAF basic training because he missed Mummy, Football and the Beatles.
secretsquirrel
27-Apr-09, 21:23
I agree that the Gurkas should have the right to stay in this Country. They are a credit to Nepal and the British Army.
A lot of the problems fall back to the 1940's when India was given independance. The British and Indian Goverments had to have the same conditions for the Gurka regiments, so that the British did take all the best men etc.
When you see the Gurkas out in town, in their base in Britain they are always neatly dressed and very curtious, they are perfect gentlemen.
percy toboggan
28-Apr-09, 11:06
Just a quick one, as this is getting boring.
Percy: "If there were fewer fighting men there would be fewer wars" I must admit I've been around a bit but that's one of the most silly things I've ever heard.
You've obviously not been around enough then because my sentence , and my sentiment makes pefect sense. It's called logic.
At the very least the wars might be equal in number but sustain fewer casualties. As long as 'fighting men' are willing to rush to the cause - however sometimes spurious - then politicians will continue to use them as cannon fodder when they run out of better ideas.
This thread has lost it's way. I was originally opposed to grantriong residential reights to Gurkhas and somehow find myself appearing (to those who do not read properly - if the cap fits wear it) like some kind of pacifist, which is far from the truth.
Gene Hunt
28-Apr-09, 11:25
Hang on a minute Percy.
In an earlier post you say that you "admired and respected" the men and women who joined up. And you have now ended up branding them on the previous post and others by implying they and my son are "puppets" and now "cannon fodder".
I attempted to let the thread die out by saying I respected you for airing your views, hoping that it would drift away. Instead you aimed personal insults at me and my son and you are contradicting yourself wildly so I am going to lock the thread.
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