View Full Version : Caithness MOD under threat
Tha an MOD Gallaibh 2010 fon cunairt a dol a bhith...
I was very dismayed listening to the radio in the car this morning.
MOD organisers are coming under pressure to relocate the 2010 MOD away from Caithness as a result of the current climate that has been whipped up by the irresponsible comments from some of our councillors and others.
Hotels from Wick to Bettyhill are already booked up solid for the MOD in 2010 but the wider gaelic community are begining to wonder why they should invest a huge amount of their funds in a county that doesn't want anything to do with them or their culture.
Christina Stone from the caithness committee gave an excellent interview on Radio nan Gaidheal this morning.
While she acknowledged that there was an issue surrounding for bi-lingual road signs, this should not by interpretted as a lack of suport for the language and culture of Gaelic. The support that they have received to date for fundraising etc around the county demonstrates clearly that there is support for Gaelic in the County.
She asked that the wider gaelic community not to be put off by a vocal minority.
I hope that as many people as possible in Caithness, Gaels and non Gaels, will also express their support for Christina and the rest of the Caithness MOD committee so that they are able to keep up their excellent work.
MOD organisers are coming under pressure to relocate the 2010 MOD away from Caithness as a result of the current climate that has been whipped up by the irresponsible comments from some of our councillors and others.
What an absolutely irresponsable comment
I heard about these rumblings a couple of weeks ago from a Gael friend in Skye. He also feels that Caithness doesnt welcome gaels. Thats the real shame, that we in Caithness in our opposition to an unelected quango of Gaels and modern Gaels from wherever, who are intent on changing the social and cultural structure of a country, are allergic to challenge.
I would support the Caithness mod commitee to the hilt in their efforts to have a successful mod in Caithness. However the long term objects of this unelected quango goes a lot deeper than road signs and that is the difficulty. If they are intent on changing Scotland to a vision exclusive to modern day Gaels, let them go to the polls for support like any other political movement.
Cant you acknowledge there is a difficulty with this issue? Surely you have as much responsabilty as the Caithnes people to show you have the abilty to mix with anyone and not just those who agree with your aims?
We are not a small minority of big mouthed objectors. That's another mistruth by someone out of step with local opinion and heavily biased to their Gaelic vision for Scotland. As in any community there will be mouth piece's but I believe Caithnesss has a sound argument against changing the social and cultural structure of a country the least of which is an opportunity for everyone to vote at the polls for a change of such significance.
I'm still trying to understand just what the problem is with dual language road signs in Caithness.
The oft repeated assertion that Caithness was never a Gaelic speaking county is a fallacy which seems to have convinced Caithness folk purely through the repitition.
After all, from historical records, Gaelic speakers, the majority monoglot, were in a majority in Caithness up until the early nineteenth century, though there was a significant English-speaking/dual language minority in its north-east corner.
It was, however, a county where events conspired to reduce the Gaelic speaking majority more quickly than in other areas, and for a language to live it needs numbers of speakers. A combination of the restrictions on Gaelic from the 15th Century onwards allied with the Clearances removing Gaels and bringing in Lowlanders, harvest failure and famine promoting major emigration, and better communications, particularly the increase in trade to Wick and Thurso encouraging the increased use of English all helped in reducing the usage of Gaelic and, it appears, in wiping its existence in the county from memory and rewriting Caithness history.
Anyway, if the road signs weren't in Gaelic/English, the Highland taxpayer would have to pay for them rather than the UK taxpayer through the Scottish Government using ring fenced funds....and that would just add to Highland's big bucks deficit, wouldn't it?
I'm still trying to understand just what the problem is with dual language road signs in Caithness.
I dunno about others in caithness but I will try and explain why I dont like the idea.
I dont like the argument that Caithness is more Norse than Gael because to be honest I think sometimes history and those who embrace it can be rather destructive to cordial relationships. Look no further than Ireland for proof of that.
Socially and culturally Scotland had evolved into it's present day incarnation as an influential member of the English speaking United Kingdom. It would be ridiculous if people in the United States were faced with an unelected lobby with great political power whose aim was to force tham to have Apache language road signs or Sioux the language on their utility bills just to appease a minority.
People have more to be concerned about in this day and age than dual road signs on our roads and streets. There's an unelected quango operating in Scottish politics today whose sole aim is to promote the Gaelic language and culture in Scotland whether we like it or not. I can well understand the nationalistic leanings of the supporters of a Gaelic Scotland but as a non nationalist I woulld oppose it at the polls given the opportunity.
Would you not agree that rather than forcing such an immense change on the social and cultural scenery of Scotland the modern gaelic lobby should be more respectful of the society and culture we have inherited from the past and put themselves up for democratic election as the democratic Gaelic movement of Scotland. You know and I know they wouldnt stand a squeek at the polls and that is how this back door method of Gaelicisation has flourished and more so since the Scottish parliament was reformed in 1997.
That being said. I could easily support a Gaelic language revival using funds sourced from places other than the public purse. Some government funding would of course be ok to keep the language alive but rather than the undemocratic methods being employed at the moment perhaps a small invitation to the people of caithness to consider the idea of some dual signs would be met more cordially that the present, we're having it so your having it attitiude. Only at that stage should history be considered as a factor in re-writing of books of Scottish history.
I think that Caithness opposition to Gaelic being "imposed" on the County is actually a manifestation of a deeper political unhappiness and you have to look back a little bit in local history to find that source.
Caithness County Council, and Wick and Thurso Town Councils were all wound up during Local Government reorganisation in 1975 and Highland Regional Council arrived with its small offshoot Caithness District Council as a substitute for local representation, basically dealing with refuse and minor affairs with some outposted committee work from big brother, Inverness based Highland Regional Council.
The next step in this loss of local government was the reorganisation in 1995 when the District Councils which had been loosely modelled on the old County boundaries and structures were in turn done away with and reduced to Area Committees with the major functions delivered from super Committees based in Inverness headquarters.
However there was a very real committment to ensure that the extermities were fairly treated and the cake was evenly distributed and this was supplemented by EEEC peripheral area funds leading to huge investment in e.g. the Dornoch Bridge and Kinlochbervie and Lochinver harbours to name but a few.
But ongoing financial constraints and new Councillors who hadn't served in the previous incarnations meant that area autonomy has gradually been whittled away with area Committees and local service heads amalgamated or lost completely.
The last twist has been the loss of Councillors directly elected to their home areas. You now have a pool of three or four members for a collection of the old Council Wards. This may or may not be an improvement, only time will tell.
Off course along side all of this you have the Boundary Commission playing the numbers game with Parliamentary Constituencies which now have very little practical connection to population distribution. This all adds up to frustration and a feeling that empowerment is now based with the faceless ones in Inverness and perhaps the Gaelic question has really just provided the opportunity to voice these accumulated frustrations.
But who will suffer the loss if the National Mod decides to take itself off elsewhere? My advice for what its worth is to draw a line under the protests now, you've made your point there's no need to die in the ditch as well!
northener
16-Apr-09, 15:55
To me it sounds more like an extremely crude attempt by some to blackmail those who oppose imposition of the bi-lingual signs in Caithness.
If anything it highlights the problem that there are those amongst the Gaelic community who believe that anyone who opposes their aim to Gaelicise the whole area North of the Highland Line is somehow an enemy of Scotland and being (and I quote) "irresponsible".
All those who have opposed the introduction of bi-lingual roadsigns have stated repeatedly that they have no problem with Gaelic culture, language or the Mod. It is only the narrow-minded zealots who will stand no disagreement with their aims who create problems such as this to further their own ends.
It was an ambitious plan for Caithness, outside the Gaeldom, to host the National Mod 2010.
It's a first on many fronts, and would provide a valuable and much needed opportunity for Gaelic to be promoted in a positive, friendly and genuine way in Caithness. Of course, if the Gaelic powers-that-be decide to stick with Caithness as a venue in 2010, even the most vocal of us "anti-bilingual-road-sign" campaigners will welcome our Gaelic friends for a couple of weeks - it would certainly be an education for all concerned.
However, I'm certainly not prepared to "sell" the history of Caithness to the Gaels at any price, not matter how many millions they plan to spend here. If they genuinely think the money is all we're interested in, then that's a sad mistake. I'd rather have Caithness host the Mod with no economic benefit than have them think we're only putting up with their language to get the money!:roll:
I do, however, suspect that the "alternative" host venue towns are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of millions of pounds going to them instead of Caithness.
The real question for the organisers of the National Mod is "Do you want to educate Caithness folk in a friendly, positive way, or do you not?"
Simple as that - and it's their choice, not ours.
ywindythesecond
16-Apr-09, 23:18
I'm still trying to understand just what the problem is with dual language road signs in Caithness.
Problem OQ, is it adds no value.
It costs a lot.
It does not enhance education in Gaelic.
Spend the money on Gaelic education.
Or facilities for the MOD.
Or advertising for the Caithness MOD.
Don't spend it on expensive confusing bits of tin.
Use the money where it can be effective.
If you have difficulty understanding any of the above, please PM me.
Problem OQ, is it adds no value.
It does not enhance education in Gaelic.
If you have difficulty understanding any of the above, please PM me.
I think familiarity with signs involving English words alongside a Gaelic translation must by its very nature assist education in Gaelic. What language teaching is there that doesn't involve some form of bilingual translation?:confused
I'm still trying to understand just what the problem is with dual language road signs in Caithness.
The oft repeated assertion that Caithness was never a Gaelic speaking county is a fallacy which seems to have convinced Caithness folk purely through the repitition.
After all, from historical records, Gaelic speakers, the majority monoglot, were in a majority in Caithness up until the early nineteenth century, though there was a significant English-speaking/dual language minority in its north-east corner.
It was, however, a county where events conspired to reduce the Gaelic speaking majority more quickly than in other areas, and for a language to live it needs numbers of speakers. A combination of the restrictions on Gaelic from the 15th Century onwards allied with the Clearances removing Gaels and bringing in Lowlanders, harvest failure and famine promoting major emigration, and better communications, particularly the increase in trade to Wick and Thurso encouraging the increased use of English all helped in reducing the usage of Gaelic and, it appears, in wiping its existence in the county from memory and rewriting Caithness history.
Anyway, if the road signs weren't in Gaelic/English, the Highland taxpayer would have to pay for them rather than the UK taxpayer through the Scottish Government using ring fenced funds....and that would just add to Highland's big bucks deficit, wouldn't it?
Hi Oddquine
The reason there is an argument over bi-lingual signs is not over the history of Gaelic or number of Gaelic speakers in Caithness, its the places that never were Gaelic, eg, Thurso, or Wick, or the like. It spoils the history in Caithness and may confuse people, such as tourists. Im all for the MOD, and hmmmm I guess Gaelic education (though in my opinion too much money has been put into what essentially is a dying, and useless language - this will no doubt spark some argument haha) but bi-lingual signs are pointless.
pinotnoir
17-Apr-09, 08:47
If an elected Caithness councillor has truly said "the majority of people won't be affected if the Mod does not come" then the level of debate offered by our representatives has sunk to a base level.
It could be a huge cultural and artistic boon to our county which carried resonance for the younger generation.
The tourist spin offs would be significant.
This has nothing to do with selling our history and a further spin off could be a better informed and more rounded look at our true history.
Hi Oddquine
The reason there is an argument over bi-lingual signs is not over the history of Gaelic or number of Gaelic speakers in Caithness, its the places that never were Gaelic, eg, Thurso, or Wick, or the like. It spoils the history in Caithness and may confuse people, such as tourists. Im all for the MOD, and hmmmm I guess Gaelic education (though in my opinion too much money has been put into what essentially is a dying, and useless language - this will no doubt spark some argument haha) but bi-lingual signs are pointless.
The earliest description we have of the relative extent of Gaelic and English-speaking areas of Caithness dates from 1706, an era when a whole series of local descriptive accounts was being compiled across Scotland. Many of these were written by local ministers, with the focus firmly upon their own parish. This particular account lists where Gaelic was preached within the bounds of Presbytery of Caithness:
There are Seven parishes in [the Presbytery of] Caithness where the Irish language is used, viz. Thurso, Halkrig [Halkirk], Rhae [Reay], Lathrone [Latheron], Ffar [Farr], Week [Wick], Duirness [Durness]. But the people of Week understand English also.
When considering such evidence, we should remember that the population of the county was much more evenly distributed than it is today, and that the larger western parishes were not so thinly populated then as they are now. We should note the implication that, unlike bilingual Wick (the county town), Thurso parish was populated mainly by monoglot Gaels
So Thurso and Wick never spoke Gaelic? As I said...some facts were airbrushed from local history.
pinotnoir
17-Apr-09, 13:22
The saddest thing emerging from this whole Gaelic debate is the abscence of an authentic Caithness voice.
Caithness people are, on the whole, inquisitive, warm, generous, hospitable and caring.
Yes, we can be thrawn at times, but usually our wonderful dry humour and sense of mischief (in the nicest meaning) overcomes that.
Are any of our representatives prepared to add the voice of reason to this sorry mess?
GetWithTheTimes
17-Apr-09, 13:29
i cant believe people are still rabbiting on about this
i think this whole caithness hates gaelic thing is just wanting attention, we dont hate gaelic we just dont want it shoved down out throat and in our face, alot of us dont speak read or write gaelic and have no want or need to so why should we pay taxes that are going to be put to teach gaelic in schools we or our kids dont go to and its a language we and our kids probably would prefer not to learn, there are so many other languages that would be beneficial to our kids other then gaelic, our kids may go abroad to get jobs so why not have foreign languages taught so they stand better chances of seeing the world and working around the world rather than wasting time teaching them a language that a minority speaks, a waste of time and money in my opinion when it could of been spent on better things that are worth it like fixing roads and doing up existing schools and improving existing classes not creating classes and paying wages to a teacher who is teaching this new gaelic language which is really quite useless in this day and age, the world is moving on as usual and i think other people should do the same instead of clinging on to an old language the majority doesnt want to learn, if people want to learn and speak it fair enough do it off their own back but dont use everyone elses taxes to pay for what this MINORITY of you want its the majority that counts in politics so if the majority doesnt want it stop flogging a dead horse and get over it ok teach yourself teach the kids and people who want to be taught but stop forcing it onto people who dont want it and stop trying to make it the caithness culture that it isnt
The earliest description we have of the relative extent of Gaelic and English-speaking areas of Caithness dates from 1706, an era when a whole series of local descriptive accounts was being compiled across Scotland. Many of these were written by local ministers, with the focus firmly upon their own parish. This particular account lists where Gaelic was preached within the bounds of Presbytery of Caithness:
There are Seven parishes in [the Presbytery of] Caithness where the Irish language is used, viz. Thurso, Halkrig [Halkirk], Rhae [Reay], Lathrone [Latheron], Ffar [Farr], Week [Wick], Duirness [Durness]. But the people of Week understand English also.
When considering such evidence, we should remember that the population of the county was much more evenly distributed than it is today, and that the larger western parishes were not so thinly populated then as they are now. We should note the implication that, unlike bilingual Wick (the county town), Thurso parish was populated mainly by monoglot Gaels
So Thurso and Wick never spoke Gaelic? As I said...some facts were airbrushed from local history.
No no lol sorry thats not what I meant, I didnt word it very well though! I do apologise. I was meaning we arent arguing that there wasnt some Gaelic influence on the history and society in Caithness - WHICH THERE IS!! haha. Bu we are arguing the fact that some place names in Caithness such as Wick, Thurso, Lybster, Scrabster, Mybster etc that are Norse in origin and should remain Norse!
pinotnoir
17-Apr-09, 14:37
It is the dogmatism that is so disappointing.
An acknowledgment that Gaelic was more widespread in the county than many of us thought (like above) would be a start to thawing the frostiness.
If an elected Caithness councillor has truly said "the majority of people won't be affected if the Mod does not come" then the level of debate offered by our representatives has sunk to a base level.
Most people in Caithness, including our elected representatives, actually have no idea of what if will be like to have the National Mod visit Caithness - they have no experience of this event except the small clips they've seen on TV.
I hear that the National Mod is HUGE, cheerful, friendly and fantastic entertainment. That sounds good. (Much better than Gaelic roadsigns!;))
It surely is a fantastic opportunity for the Gaelic community to show the people of Caithness the beautiful and truly functional side of the Gaelic language.
(Interestingly, by the way, all the written historic records about who spoke Gaelic in Caithness were recorded in English! There is no historic Gaelic written record of these statistics, and it is only thanks to the local ministers who wrote in English that this part of Gaelic history is recorded at all. It's an interesting thought that perhaps if the Gaels had taken to writing their language down a bit earlier and with a bit more enthusiasm then history would have been recorded more clearly from their perspective. It's slightly amusing to me that they seem to be making up for this historic deficit by writing EVERYWHERE and everything in Gaelic in the 21st century - even though the vast majority of Scots can't read what it says!:lol:)
Problem OQ, is it adds no value.
It costs a lot.
It does not enhance education in Gaelic.
Spend the money on Gaelic education.
Or facilities for the MOD.
Or advertising for the Caithness MOD.
Don't spend it on expensive confusing bits of tin.
Use the money where it can be effective.
If you have difficulty understanding any of the above, please PM me.
Why does it cost a lot? I was under the impression that Gaelic signage would only be added when current English only signs were replaced as part of general maintenance or the necessity of updating with new information...in fact that is specifically laid down in the Highland Council Gaelic language plan.
As for adding value.....maybe not for locals...but visitors tend to be fair trickit with Gaelic signs. I know I've always appreciated those in Sutherland.
Btw, the plan also says.
Present policy to be used across the Council unless an Area decides to exercise discretion on implementation where there is no Gaelic
cultural base.
Unfortunately Caithness does have a Gaelic cultural base,though maybe not within the living memory of those who post on here.
Maybe all those who are anti-Gaelic signs and who predicate their objections on the fallacy that "Gaelic has never been spoken here" would be better employed fighting for the signs to be trilingual to include Norse, and thus asserting their "difference" to the rest of Highland in a way which does not preclude the fact that, like it or lump it, they are an integral part of Highland Region, and are bound by majority voting. :confused
If you have difficulty understanding any of the above, please PM me.
No no lol sorry thats not what I meant, I didnt word it very well though! I do apologise. I was meaning we arent arguing that there wasnt some Gaelic influence on the history and society in Caithness - WHICH THERE IS!! haha. Bu we are arguing the fact that some place names in Caithness such as Wick, Thurso, Lybster, Scrabster, Mybster etc that are Norse in origin and should remain Norse!
So tell that to the person/s who persist in making the Lybster sign point to Lobster! :lol:
i cant believe people are still rabbiting on about this
i think this whole caithness hates gaelic thing is just wanting attention, we dont hate gaelic we just dont want it shoved down out throat and in our face, alot of us dont speak read or write gaelic and have no want or need to so why should we pay taxes that are going to be put to teach gaelic in schools we or our kids dont go to and its a language we and our kids probably would prefer not to learn, there are so many other languages that would be beneficial to our kids other then gaelic, our kids may go abroad to get jobs so why not have foreign languages taught so they stand better chances of seeing the world and working around the world rather than wasting time teaching them a language that a minority speaks, a waste of time and money in my opinion when it could of been spent on better things that are worth it like fixing roads and doing up existing schools and improving existing classes not creating classes and paying wages to a teacher who is teaching this new gaelic language which is really quite useless in this day and age, the world is moving on as usual and i think other people should do the same instead of clinging on to an old language the majority doesnt want to learn, if people want to learn and speak it fair enough do it off their own back but dont use everyone elses taxes to pay for what this MINORITY of you want its the majority that counts in politics so if the majority doesnt want it stop flogging a dead horse and get over it ok teach yourself teach the kids and people who want to be taught but stop forcing it onto people who dont want it and stop trying to make it the caithness culture that it isnt
You know.............having things shoved down our throats whether we like it or not is all part and parcel of being a member of the EU, the UK, Scotland, a Scottish Region and any community council you care to name.
All of the above take heed of pressure groups.......and legislate for minority interests........what makes Caithness the exception to the rule?
I'd be really, really interested in knowing just how many of the 27000 or so population of Caithness actually give a tinker's cuss one way or the other about their road signs.:roll:
It is the dogmatism that is so disappointing.
An acknowledgment that Gaelic was more widespread in the county than many of us thought (like above) would be a start to thawing the frostiness.
I understand that there were plenty Gaelic speakers in Caithness in days gone by. What I am trying to argue is that Norse place names do not need Gaelic place names. It is misleading - Lets not forget our Norse heritage, they were here too! In my own opinion, Gaelic is a dying, almost dead language, an awful lot of money has been put into it, and I dont think I've seen many people take it up here. In my year at school, of around ooooh 200 + children, I know only one who took up the language, and this is only 2 years ago. If you want to learn it then thats fine and quite admirable actually but I do not beleive it should continue to be publicly funded. It has received plenty of support (I beleive it is the only area in the Highland Council's spending NOT to be cut) but I think its time is up.
Unfortunately Caithness does have a Gaelic cultural base,though maybe not within the living memory of those who post on here.
Maybe all those who are anti-Gaelic signs and who predicate their objections on the fallacy that "Gaelic has never been spoken here" would be better employed fighting for the signs to be trilingual to include Norse, and thus asserting their "difference" to the rest of Highland in a way which does not preclude the fact that, like it or lump it, they are an integral part of Highland Region, and are bound by majority voting.
Hi Oddquine,
There have been several threads about this issue recently, and you've joined a debate that's been going on for months (or even years?!) We've already covered this issue in depth - here's a wee summary:
Gaelic was spoken by some people in some parts of Caithness for a while - it's a small but significant part of our local heritage - remembering that folk have been living here for at least 3000 years. I think we can all agree that it's a fact that Gaelic has been spoken in Caithness.
There are parts of Caithness (the NE corner) where the local people NEVER spoke Gaelic, although there's evidence that they traded in a friendly way with their Gaelic neighbours in the SE of the county.
The border of the Gaeldom is clearly defined in the placenames of Caithness - in the SE, placenames are mostly Gaelic, in the NE placenames are ALL of Norse or Pictish origin and NONE are Gaelic.
This is just a summary of the previous three threads which were discussed to death so's you can catch up... to save us going over old ground again!:D
Tootler, I have enjoyed your contributions, you have articulated a consistent and honest argument that I respect.
In terms of protecting and celebrating identity and diversity, I dont think were that far away from each other in principle - though we may have diferent points of view in the detail.
If we could all follow the debate with your sense of focus we get a lot further faster.
its hardly OQ's fualt that the same old tired arguments against gaelic keep getting dragged up. OQ is doing a great job responding these.
As so many that have come out strongly against Bi-lingual signage, have started with the usual
"I'm not against gaelic but..."
"I support gaelic but..."
"I'm not prejudiced, some of my best friends are gaelic speakers but..."
I hoped this thread would be an opportunity for people to express their support for the local MOD committee and gaelic speakers community in a simple way - and seperate to any other debates we may have about signage, etc, etc.
I guess the thread has shown just how many are not willing to offer even a small gesture of support for the Gaelic community in Caithness - even when there is nothing at stake.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
17-Apr-09, 22:26
The Mod has been about Scottish music and culture.It has nothing to do with Gaelic.Gaelic has a part in Scottish culture,but the Mod is about music and prose.I once heard a lady sing in the Mod a song called"She moves through the Fair",she sung an Irish traditional song in a Scottish accent.She was brilliant,the Mod is about culture whether in gaelic or not.
The border of the Gaeldom is clearly defined in the placenames of Caithness - in the SE, placenames are mostly Gaelic, in the NE placenames are ALL of Norse or Pictish origin and NONE are Gaelic.
Go to areas in Scotland where Gaelic is at its strongest and you will find many placenames that are strongly Norse in origin but with a Gaelic spelling to represent the norse name phonetically. So could it be possible that the notion of striking an arbitrary line across Caithness which depended on incidences of norse influence in placenames to be totally erroneous?:confused
Go to areas in Scotland where Gaelic is at its strongest and you will find many placenames that are strongly Norse in origin but with a Gaelic spelling to represent the norse name phonetically. So could it be possible that the notion of striking an arbitrary line across Caithness which depended on incidences of norse influence in placenames to be totally erroneous?:confused
Okay, Rheghead, this thread's supposed to be about how much we'd ALL like to see the National Mod 2010 in Caithness, but like a moth to the light, I must respond briefly...
The difference in Caithness is that our Norse placenames have NEVER been translated into Gaelic - not in the whole of history. That's what makes them special and unique. The Norse influence covered a large part of Scotland and was, in most places, overwritten or superseded by the Gaelic. Not here. That's why Caithness is special. Okay - rant over.
Now, can we get back to how fantastic Gaelic music actually is?! I've already started working on arranging Gaelic tunes for our local musicians to learn for 2010 - it's not just the Mod Committee who've been busy preparing - ALL local musicians should be looking forward to the Mod. Thanks to WBG, we have the opportunity to learn more about Gaelic music... don't you love to learn? I do.
The difference in Caithness is that our Norse placenames have NEVER been translated into Gaelic - not in the whole of history. That's what makes them special and unique. The Norse influence covered a large part of Scotland and was, in most places, overwritten or superseded by the Gaelic. Not here. That's why Caithness is special. Okay - rant over.
Yeah but didn't Oddquine quote spellings Caithness placenames that seemed to be a Gaelicised norse name in nature from 1706? Must have been my imagination.
According to the article in the John O'Groat Journal today, it is only scaremongering by some of the media. They must be desperate for something to write about.
Personally I welcome the Mod and wish the best to anyone who wants to learn Gaelic but I do object to bi-lingual signs. From personal experience I consider them to be dangerous, especially as Gaelic takes precedence over English. This leads to drivers slowing off or stopping abruptly, with the increasing chance of another car running into the back of the one stopping.
northener
17-Apr-09, 23:11
Gotta get this settled:
Hi Oddquine,
There have been several threads about this issue recently, and you've joined a debate that's been going on for months (or even years?!) We've already covered this issue in depth - here's a wee summary:
Gaelic was spoken by some people in some parts of Caithness for a while - it's a small but significant part of our local heritage - remembering that folk have been living here for at least 3000 years. I think we can all agree that it's a fact that Gaelic has been spoken in Caithness.
There are parts of Caithness (the NE corner) where the local people NEVER spoke Gaelic, although there's evidence that they traded in a friendly way with their Gaelic neighbours in the SE of the county.
The border of the Gaeldom is clearly defined in the placenames of Caithness - in the SE, placenames are mostly Gaelic, in the NE placenames are ALL of Norse or Pictish origin and NONE are Gaelic.
This is just a summary of the previous three threads which were discussed to death so's you can catch up... to save us going over old ground again!:D
I read all the other threads....and even posted on some of them...........but the same fallacies are still being promulgated....hence my input.
"A presbytery minute of 1727 says of 1,600 people who had 'come of age', 1500 could speak Gaelic only, and a mere five could read. Gaelic at this time was the principal language in most parishes except Bower, Canisbay, Dunnet and Olrig" (Omand, D. From the Vikings to the Forty-Five, in The Caithness book)
According to Dr Donald Stewart evidence suggests that Gaelic-speaking Caithness stretched right up to Wick, and possibly beyond Thurso, areas where not just the language but even its very memory has been erased. As we have seen, it appears that Gaels were in a majority in Caithness right up until the early nineteenth century, although, of course, there was always a significant English-speaking minority in its north-east corner.
You are, of course, aware that Norse influence was no longer extant by the 15th Century? And in that 3000 years, the Norse/Orcadian supremacy only lasted from around 900AD-the mid 1200s...in other words, no longer than there is definite evidence of Gaelic speakers in Caithness. If I was going to get uptight about Caithness heritage...I'd be bumming up the Picts....they lasted a lot longer....and gave us all the touristy cairns.
Let's get real, here...Gaelic is not of significant relevance anywhere in Scotland anymore.......it is, however, of significant relevance to Scottish culture and history, and consequently should not be allowed to die as it has been doing over the last couple of centuries due to the forcing of English on Gaelic speaking communities.
I don't deny the Norse/Scandinavian influence, which, incidentally, is applicable to much more of Scotland than Caithness....though no other county makes as much (or any) noise about it........but denying the Gaelic heritage of Caithness is simply being economical with the truth.
I have already suggested that if anyone feels that strongly about it, the way to go is to work to add the Norse/Norn influence to the Caithness signage etc.....and that way, both sides of the divide have their aspirations met.
I'm afraid I have come to the conclusion, having had a Caithness born and bred mother, that Caithness folk feel they are "different" to the rest of Scotland..............and I guess they are...........they appear to be less Scottish. Such a shame 27000 people aren't in a position to take a leaf from Rhodesia's book and declare UDI. It would be interesting to see how you/we get on.
northener
17-Apr-09, 23:51
.................................................. I'm afraid I have come to the conclusion, having had a Caithness born and bred mother, that Caithness folk feel they are "different" to the rest of Scotland..............and I guess they are...........they appear to be less Scottish. Such a shame 27000 people aren't in a position to take a leaf from Rhodesia's book and declare UDI. It would be interesting to see how you/we get on.
So, are you saying that if you don't support the introduction of the Gaelic language into a certain area you are somehow less "Scottish"?
Am I reading this correctly?
Cedric Farthsbottom III
17-Apr-09, 23:55
Here is ma favourite moment of a Cedric Farthsbottism.Have ye noticed that aw the arguments on this forum have been in English,If Gaelic is so such a moment in Caithness in history.Then(pardon ma spelling),but if i say Eich ma hoch,then most folk won't know what I'm saying.
northener
18-Apr-09, 00:01
...........I have already suggested that if anyone feels that strongly about it, the way to go is to work to add the Norse/Norn influence to the Caithness signage etc.....and that way, both sides of the divide have their aspirations met.
.
Now that seems like a sensible compromise, Oddquine. By using historical records and map evidence it would be very easy to come up with a dividing line for these signs. It actually runs from Latheron up to Thurso on what is now the A9.
Have a look at the OS map, West of this road is almost pure Gaelic placenames - to the East almost pure Norse. Bearing in mind that Gaelic was eradicated from the whole of Caithness, we can assume that the Gaelic influence must have been very weak to the East of this line as the names have not survived in that language (if they existed at all).
Whereas to the West, Gaelic placenames survived - even after the demise of the spoken Gaelic word. So therefore the Gaelic language was certainly dominant in that region.
So there we have it - a compromise that should suit nearly everybody.
Gaelic to the West - Norse to the East.
Next.;)
Now that seems like a sensible compromise, Oddquine. By using historical records and map evidence it would be very easy to come up with a dividing line for these signs. It actually runs from Latheron up to Thurso on what is now the A9.
Have a look at the OS map, West of this road is almost pure Gaelic placenames - to the East almost pure Norse. Bearing in mind that Gaelic was eradicated from the whole of Caithness, we can assume that the Gaelic influence must have been very weak to the East of this line as the names have not survived in that language (if they existed at all).
Whereas to the West, Gaelic placenames survived - even after the demise of the spoken Gaelic word. So therefore the Gaelic language was certainly dominant in that region.
So there we have it - a compromise that should suit nearly everybody.
Gaelic to the West - Norse to the East.
Next.;)
Much too sensible! :(
So there we have it - a compromise that should suit nearly everybody.
Gaelic to the West - Norse to the East.Yeah! Now the battle lines are drawn, let's fight! :D
Better get moving west OQ before they shoot you as a spy. :eek:
So, are you saying that if you don't support the introduction of the Gaelic language into a certain area you are somehow less "Scottish"?
Am I reading this correctly?
You can read it any way you like.
What my way of thinking is that most, if not all, of Scotland has mixed Pictish, Scandinavian and Gaelic heritage.........but of those heritages, the only one which has left Scotland with a language which was spoken everywhere in Scotland, except possibly Orkney and Shetland, are the Gaels. So, in my view, Scots Gaelic is the language of Scotland....as Manx is of the Isle of Man and Irish Gaelic is of Ireland.
Because events in history, particularly British history, have conspired to reduce the Gaelic speaking community in Scotland to endangered species proportions, I, personally, believe that anything we can do to halt and possibly reverse the decline is worth doing.
It is ironic that Caithness which is a part of Scotland has set its face against Gaelic additions to road signs.because "Caithness has more cultural ties with Norway".......while Nova Scotia has dual language road signs and are proud of them. Which population feels more Scottish?
Now that seems like a sensible compromise, Oddquine. By using historical records and map evidence it would be very easy to come up with a dividing line for these signs. It actually runs from Latheron up to Thurso on what is now the A9.
Have a look at the OS map, West of this road is almost pure Gaelic placenames - to the East almost pure Norse. Bearing in mind that Gaelic was eradicated from the whole of Caithness, we can assume that the Gaelic influence must have been very weak to the East of this line as the names have not survived in that language (if they existed at all).
Whereas to the West, Gaelic placenames survived - even after the demise of the spoken Gaelic word. So therefore the Gaelic language was certainly dominant in that region.
So there we have it - a compromise that should suit nearly everybody.
Gaelic to the West - Norse to the East.
Next.;)
Rather than edit my last reply............it wouldn't be Norse to the East but Norse to the North East..because though some place names down the A99 may be of Norse derivation, the population of Latheron were very definitely Gaelic speakers, having a Gaelic speaking minister as a matter of course until the mid 1800s.
So no Gaelic road signs in Bower, Canisbay, Dunnet and Olrig..........by 1727 they were majority English speaking. ;)
What my way of thinking is that most, if not all, of Scotland has mixed Pictish, Scandinavian and Gaelic heritage.........but of those heritages, the only one which has left Scotland with a language which was spoken everywhere in Scotland, except possibly Orkney and Shetland, are the Gaels. So, in my view, Scots Gaelic is the language of Scotland....as Manx is of the Isle of Man and Irish Gaelic is of Ireland.Er, you've forgotten the Britons and the Angles and I think the latter might have had some influence on which language we all speak everywhere in Scotland today. ;)
Coming from a slightly different angle, do all Scottish politicians claim to support the Gaelic language? Even the Caithness councillors who oppose bilingual signs all claim they support the language. Most of the posters on here say similar things. Is support for Gaelic the new political correctness? If so please remember where you first read it. :D
Is support for Gaelic the new political correctness? If so please remember where you first read it. :D
I dont think so. Not yet anyway. Gaelicisation is still creeping slowly up on the psyche of Scotland and probably because of its traditional Scottishness it's still not seen as the changing influence it's supporters have in mind for it. Give it time though.
Oddquine complains about the democratic rights of the rest of the highlands because Caithness is standing up to this blunt end of a shadoway movement operating in Scottish politics with absolutely no political mandate from the majority of Scottish voters. How does that square with your democratic principles OQ?
As for the Mod itself. There was a brilliant quote in the Groat today from a spokeswoman of the Caithness mod commitee. When asked what she thought about the Mod being shifted to a more Gaelic friendly area she said 'over my dead body will it be shifted'
It looks like even the local Gaelic community are being prejudiced against by the sour grape attitiude of the Gaels from the south and they wonder why Caithness is standing up to their undemocratic vision for a modern Scotland.
Alice in Blunderland
18-Apr-09, 11:16
(pardon ma spelling),but if i say Eich ma hoch,then most folk won't know what I'm saying.
Oh I do and my Gaelic is very limited :lol: :lol:
Weeboyagee taught this one to my kids a long time ago and found it very funny indeed. [lol]
northener
18-Apr-09, 11:32
You can read it any way you like.
What my way of thinking is that most, if not all, of Scotland has mixed Pictish, Scandinavian and Gaelic heritage.........but of those heritages, the only one which has left Scotland with a language which was spoken everywhere in Scotland, except possibly Orkney and Shetland, are the Gaels. So, in my view, Scots Gaelic is the language of Scotland....as Manx is of the Isle of Man and Irish Gaelic is of Ireland................
So am I correct in assuming that Gaelic was the main language East of Inverness, down the Aberdeen coast into Fife, through Edinburgh and down towards Kelso and Jedburgh and across to Dumfries and Galloway? if so, has anyone told them yet?
I'd agree Gaelic is the language of the Highlander clans and the Western Isles...but that is only one part of Scotland - not all of it.
Oddquine, regarding my question over whether not wishing to be Gaelicised is to be not 'Scottish', your offhand "read it anyway you want" answer would suggest that the attitude of the pro - Gael is one of arrogance. Which, I would say, is one of the main problems with a lot of folk.
The pro Gael lobby appear to have more than a few zealots who are of the opinion that resistance to Gaelicisation is unpatriotic and that objectors are nothing short of Heretics. Let's face it, this is a minority lobby that has found friends in Holyrood and is determined to Gaelicise the whole of Scotland, regardless of local opinion and some rather convoluted use of records going back over hundreds of years.
I'd love to see the pro-Gaels argue their case in Dumfries or Fife......
I'd agree Gaelic is the language of the Highlander clans and the Western Isles...but that is only one part of Scotland - not all of it.Absolutely. Was Gaelic ever a major language in Edinburgh?
Oddquine, regarding my question over whether not wishing to be Gaelicised is to be not 'Scottish', your offhand "read it anyway you want" answer would suggest that the attitude of the pro - Gael is one of arrogance. Which, I would say, is one of the main problems with a lot of folk.
The pro Gael lobby appear to have more than a few zealots who are of the opinion that resistance to Gaelicisation is unpatriotic and that objectors are nothing short of Heretics. Let's face it, this is a minority lobby that has found friends in Holyrood and is determined to Gaelicise the whole of Scotland, regardless of local opinion and some rather convoluted use of records going back over hundreds of years.More than a few zealots? They're all like that in the pro Gael lobby down here, they've really put me off everything to do with Gaeldom in the last few weeks.
I'd love to see the pro-Gaels argue their case in Dumfries or Fife......They might have problems in Fife but I think Dumfries was Gaelic.
northener
18-Apr-09, 13:37
....
They might have problems in Fife but I think Dumfries was Gaelic.
IIRC it is Gaelic for 'The fort in the wood' - or summat. But, the situation in Dumfriesshire is not as clear cut as it seems......
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/education/inquiries/gaelic%20language/D_Livingston,%20Alistair.pdf
Anyway, we've drifted way off topic with this, it's meant to be about the Mod. So apologies.
I'm all for the Mod coming to Caithness, same as I would be for any festival...those who choose to use the Mod to arm-twist over road signs are the only ones who are creating trouble over this.
Absolutely. Was Gaelic ever a major language in Edinburgh?
Hopefully this bit of information will put the Anti Gaels in here on the path of righteousness once more.
"Gaelic originally came to Scotland circa 500 A.D. as the northern Irish kingdom of Dalriada expanded into the western Highlands and Islands of Scotland, subsequently absorbing the Pictish kingdom in Northern Scotland, the British kingdom of Strathclyde in southwestern Scotland and part of Anglian Northumbria in the southeast, forming a largely Gaelic-speaking Scottish kingdom roughly coterminous with present-day Scotland by the 11th century. From the reign of Malcolm Canmore (1054-96), Gaelic lost its pre-eminence at court, then amongst the aristocracy to Norman French, and subsequently in the Lowlands through the establishment of English-speaking burghs in eastern and central Scotland, to Scots. The Lordship of the Isles was the political focus of Gaeldom throughout most of the ensuing Middle Ages, until its defeat at Harlaw in 1411.
By the 17th century Gaelic had retreated to the Highlands and Hebrides, which still retained much of their political independence, Celtic culture and social structure. These differences came to be seen as inimical to the interests of the Scottish and the subsequent British state, and from the late 15th century into the 18th a number of acts of the Scottish and British Parliaments aimed at promoting English-language education first amongst the aristocracy and subsequently amongst the general population, at outlawing the native learned orders, and finally on disarming and breaking the clans and outlawing highland dress and music, after the defeat of the Jacobites at Culloden in 1745."
IIRC it is Gaelic for 'The fort in the wood' - or summat. But, the situation in Dumfriesshire is not as clear cut as it seems......
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/education/inquiries/gaelic%20language/D_Livingston,%20Alistair.pdf
Interesting, I didn't know the Manx Gaelic bit. The writer seems to have a bit of a bee in his bonnet about the subject but so do most writers on this emotive subject. :)
...those who choose to use the Mod to arm-twist over road signs are the only ones who are creating trouble over this.An excellent point, it applies equally to the pro Gaelic road signs lobby and the anti Gaelic road signs lobby. :cool:
Hopefully this bit of information will put the Anti Gaels in here on the path of righteousness once more.
"Gaelic originally came to Scotland circa 500 A.D. as the northern Irish kingdom of Dalriada expanded into the western Highlands and Islands of Scotland, subsequently absorbing the Pictish kingdom in Northern Scotland, the British kingdom of Strathclyde in southwestern Scotland and part of Anglian Northumbria in the southeast, forming a largely Gaelic-speaking Scottish kingdom roughly coterminous with present-day Scotland by the 11th century. From the reign of Malcolm Canmore (1054-96), Gaelic lost its pre-eminence at court, then amongst the aristocracy to Norman French, and subsequently in the Lowlands through the establishment of English-speaking burghs in eastern and central Scotland, to Scots. The Lordship of the Isles was the political focus of Gaeldom throughout most of the ensuing Middle Ages, until its defeat at Harlaw in 1411.
By the 17th century Gaelic had retreated to the Highlands and Hebrides, which still retained much of their political independence, Celtic culture and social structure. These differences came to be seen as inimical to the interests of the Scottish and the subsequent British state, and from the late 15th century into the 18th a number of acts of the Scottish and British Parliaments aimed at promoting English-language education first amongst the aristocracy and subsequently amongst the general population, at outlawing the native learned orders, and finally on disarming and breaking the clans and outlawing highland dress and music, after the defeat of the Jacobites at Culloden in 1745."Thanks for the quote (http://www.uoc.es/euromosaic/web/document/gaelic/an/i1/i1.html#2.3) golach but the debate has moved on a bit from sweeping generalisations. Do you know of any more detailed histories of Gaelic speaking in the Lothians?
. Do you know of any more detailed histories of Gaelic speaking in the Lothians?
It would seem so Crayola, but for a short period only
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Lothian
Thanks for the link golach. I think the text (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Lothian) is worth posting here.
In the post-Roman period, Lothian was dominated by Brythonic speakers whose language was akin to Welsh (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Welsh_language) and Cornish (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Cornish_language) which became to be part of Hen Ogledd (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Hen_Ogledd). Remnants can be found in placenames such as Lothian, Tranent (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Tranent), Linlithgow (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Linlithgow) and Penicuik (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Penicuik)
Lothian and the Scottish Borders are notable in Scotland for being the only parts of the nation to have been Anglo-Saxon (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Anglo-Saxons) or Inglis throughout the history of the Kingdom of Scotland (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Kingdom_of_Scotland) and was described by Adam of Dryburgh (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Adam_of_Dryburgh) as "The land of the English in the Kingdom of the Scots".
Although one of the few areas of mainland Scotland where the Gaelic language did not achieve dominance — the presence of the language is attributed to the "temporary occupation…the presence of a landowning Gaelic-speaking aristocracy and their followers for something like 150-200 years" — there are some placenames from the language , e.g. Dalry (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Dalry%2c_Edinburgh), Dunbar (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Dunbar), Currie (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Currie), Balerno (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Balerno) and Cockenzie.
Over time and due to various factors the language of the Lothians and the former Kingdom of Northumbria (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Northumbria), a northern variety of Middle English (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Middle_English), also known as Early Scots (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Early_Scots) or Inglis, came to displace Gaelic as the language of all of lowland Scotland and, over time, adopted for itself the name "Scottis" ("Scots") which had previously been used to refer to Gaelic, which later became known as "Erse" ("Irish") — now considered derogatory. The dialects of the Lothians, are sometimes considered to be part of Central Scots (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Central_Scots).
Sorry for going so far off-topic. Let me try to get it back on.
If Falkirk can have the Mod (http://www.mod2008falkirk.org/) without putting up Gaelic roadsigns, why can't Caithness? ;)
wood2good
18-Apr-09, 15:56
I personally can understand why they dont want to hold the Mod here anymore as people are being very unwelcoming and I must say im surprised at that in todays day in age. It sometimes feels like Caithness against the world but I think maybe its time to open our eyes.
The Mod brings big money into where it is and after all the pay off etc that people have been getting I would see it as a welcome boost to the economy.
...Oddquine complains about the democratic rights of the rest of the highlands because Caithness is standing up to this blunt end of a shadoway movement operating in Scottish politics with absolutely no political mandate from the majority of Scottish voters. How does that square with your democratic principles OQ?...
Oh please...
The gaelic bill went through a throrough parliamentary examination, just like every other peice of legislation that imposes obligations on us (like the anti-smoking bill). The roles and responsibilites of public bodies are set out quite clearly in the legislation. The role of Bord na Gaidhlig is set out quite clearly in the legislation - it can do no more and no less.
Democracy in action from start to finish.
I have to agree just reading some of the posts above confirms it ;-(
I personally can understand why they dont want to hold the Mod here anymore as people are being very unwelcoming and I must say im surprised at that in todays day in age. It sometimes feels like Caithness against the world but I think maybe its time to open our eyes.
The Mod brings big money into where it is and after all the pay off etc that people have been getting I would see it as a welcome boost to the economy.
northener
18-Apr-09, 19:07
But the point is that the vast majority are in favour of the Mod being in Caithness!
It's only a minority who are stirring it to cause trouble over acceptance of Gaelic roadsigns in the county - and I mean on both sides of the divide when I say that.
I dont understand what gaelic road signs has to do with the Mod though this is whats confusing me :confused I think what hurts is peoples comments on gaelic speakers:~(
Although my googling skills lack the ability to access the Gaelic bill and it's process through parliament I managed to get enough information to see that the Gaels are in the process of taking over Scotland never mind the Caithness road signs. I have to accept the democratic process was followed properly.
I wonder how many other ordinary people lke myself are aware of the power the Gaelic movement now have in Scotland. I have to admit to being flumaxed.
Could anyone give me link to the passage of this bill?
TAKING OVER SCOTLAND REALLY!! GET A GRIP. Do you think gaelic is a disease dont be so small minded were all equal!!
Northerner..
I have to admit that you have made a fair point, there are are headbanger in both communities. But I suppose there will always be one or two headbangers on each side of every issue from now until the end of time.
We shouldn't allow them to dominate the discussion.
I for one can appreciate that a greater sensitivity to issues of local culture and identity needs to be a higher priority.
I have my feet in both camps, for the most part I am proud of my Caithness roots and the counties unique character. I definately want to see the norse heritage recognised and retained. In fact a great deal more could and should be done to promote it.
I dont see why an accommodation could not be found with a bit of flexibility on both sides - as our aims are not mutually exclusive but complimentary.
I have certainly argued for greater flexibility amongst the Gaelic Community and most people I think recognise that.
What tends to grab the attention and the headlines are the more incendiary comments which are designed to provoke a reaction and throw the whole discussion into dissarray. (This may well be the aim of those who make them.)
The Gaelic community is not massing on the border ready to invade. In fact most of them outside have got more pressing things to worry about. They are surprised and dismayed when they read some of the comments coming out of caithness, (and the john o groat journal seems to be revelling in this) and they worry when some of he caithness councillors seem intent on spreading the turmoil beyond Caithness into other counties because this could upset communties that are getting along quite happily.
Is support for Gaelic the new political correctness? If so please remember where you first read it. :DI dont think so. Not yet anyway. Gaelicisation is still creeping slowly up on the psyche of Scotland and probably because of its traditional Scottishness it's still not seen as the changing influence it's supporters have in mind for it. Give it time though.I think it is becoming the new political correctness. I don't recall hearing a single Scottish politician making any anti Gaelic statements but I find it hard to believe that at least some of them can't be doing with Gaelic language or culture. Maybe they think badmouthing Gaelic would be a vote loser but I don't see that having much effect in Easterhouse or Niddrie.
We should never underestimate how little some in the central belt know about the Highlands in general and about Caithness in particular. Some of the Gaelic zealots down here think Caithness is betraying Gaeldom because they believe Gaelic is our everyday language! :roll:
Hopefully this bit of information will put the Anti Gaels in here on the path of righteousness once more.
"Gaelic originally came to Scotland circa 500 A.D. as the northern Irish kingdom of Dalriada expanded into the western Highlands and Islands of Scotland, subsequently absorbing the Pictish kingdom in Northern Scotland, ...."
But not getting as far as absorbing the Picts of Caithness... it was the Vikings that did that job a wee bitty later... extremist geography, extremist history - hence our extremist attitude. The only area to escape the first Gaelic invasion - worth celebrating, no?
In fact, the arrival of Dounreay has had a much greater influence on present Caithness heritage than any influence the Gaels ever had in the far NE of the county - we should really have glow-in-the-dark signs to celebrate that instead.;)
Anyway, back to topic, I haven't seen anyone post against having the Mod in Caithness - everyone here would welcome it. Seems there's just some mischief making going on from faraway Gaels who would like a large cash injection to their local area and don't think we deserve one... perhaps they're right about that, but we do deserve the positive cultural input the Mod will provide - in fact I suspect we need it more than most!
oldmarine
19-Apr-09, 00:33
Tha an MOD Gallaibh 2010 fon cunairt a dol a bhith...
I was very dismayed listening to the radio in the car this morning.
MOD organisers are coming under pressure to relocate the 2010 MOD away from Caithness as a result of the current climate that has been whipped up by the irresponsible comments from some of our councillors and others.
Hotels from Wick to Bettyhill are already booked up solid for the MOD in 2010 but the wider gaelic community are begining to wonder why they should invest a huge amount of their funds in a county that doesn't want anything to do with them or their culture.
Christina Stone from the caithness committee gave an excellent interview on Radio nan Gaidheal this morning.
While she acknowledged that there was an issue surrounding for bi-lingual road signs, this should not by interpretted as a lack of suport for the language and culture of Gaelic. The support that they have received to date for fundraising etc around the county demonstrates clearly that there is support for Gaelic in the County.
She asked that the wider gaelic community not to be put off by a vocal minority.
I hope that as many people as possible in Caithness, Gaels and non Gaels, will also express their support for Christina and the rest of the Caithness MOD committee so that they are able to keep up their excellent work.
Had no such problem during my time in Caithness. It's difficult for me to understand this being a problem.
cheekychops
19-Apr-09, 03:04
erm, just wondering if anyone knows whether or not local schoolchildren will be taking part in Mod competitions, assuming it happens......
Alice in Blunderland
19-Apr-09, 09:28
erm, just wondering if anyone knows whether or not local schoolchildren will be taking part in Mod competitions, assuming it happens......
That would be lovely wouldnt it :D
It's one of my good musical friends that has been helping to organise the local Feis - they had their first meeting a few weeks ago at Mount Pleasant and it was a great success.:D
Maybe someone who knows more about Gaelic traditions can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the Feis is that it's simply a teaching festival that encourages children to take up a traditional instrument or sing in Gaelic and offers tuition in groups - no competition, no exams, just fun & learning. It's certainly a great way to learn music and the children I've spoken to who have been to a Feis have loved it.
The Caithness Feis has been started in order to give local children an opportunity to learn what they would need to know so that they could choose to enter the beginners classes at the Mod if they want to. Some class teachers might choose to enter their whole class in singing or group music making. It's a great idea and the people running it are doing a great job. Whether the Mod 2010 comes or goes, the Caithness Feis should be supported to continue and grow - congratulations to the folk who've started it up. That's the best way to go with encouraging positive Gaelic promotion in Caithness. Let's spend our roadsign budget on the Feis instead.;)
Alice in Blunderland
19-Apr-09, 11:07
Last year at the music festival Im sure it was Lybster Primary choir who won a section with their entry.
It was a Gaelic rendition and I hope they consider doing this again this year as it was very good. :D
Cedric Farthsbottom III
19-Apr-09, 20:05
Gaelic is a specialised subject.If it was so important,then English would be dropped in High School.If Gaelic was so important then the Second World War or Falklands War in History classes would be dropped to learn children a historic language.Books and people have kept the Gaelic language alive.The reasons that Gaelic is given so much attention in the Highlands is because of the Hebrides.Wee islands,off the Highlands.The wee islands off my born county were Arran.They spoke English with a rare Scottish accent.
The Gaelic question comes down to one thing only.Do you want to learn it?I have never liked it,all the words seem so alien.I like English,the three flooers.Diverse.:lol::lol:
Cedric Farthsbottom III
19-Apr-09, 20:33
Should Caithness hold the MOD.Course it should,because the MOD is a Scottish festival,and Caithness is a part of Scotland.Gaelic or not.
I think it is becoming the new political correctness. I don't recall hearing a single Scottish politician making any anti Gaelic statements but I find it hard to believe that at least some of them can't be doing with Gaelic language or culture. Maybe they think badmouthing Gaelic would be a vote loser but I don't see that having much effect in Easterhouse or Niddrie.
We should never underestimate how little some in the central belt know about the Highlands in general and about Caithness in particular. Some of the Gaelic zealots down here think Caithness is betraying Gaeldom because they believe Gaelic is our everyday language! :roll:
You could be right. Ive just spent some time going through http://www.highland.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/D97AF968-4CF7-4DAA-BEE4-F458B0C7A2CD/0/HCGLPE280508.pdf
I'm shocked at the power that's been bestowed on gaelic in the Highlands. I wonder if our Highland Councillors in Caithness are using the bi-lingual sign issue to make a statememt about the power of the gaelic movement?
Someone told me to get a grip in an earlier thread and that Gaelic was not a disease. Well, I dont need their advice and although I have a fair dis-ease at this attack on my Caithness heritage by a movement well engrained in the corridors of power the least I can do is offer a dissenting voice on the org.
You could be right. Ive just spent some time going through http://www.highland.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/D97AF968-4CF7-4DAA-BEE4-F458B0C7A2CD/0/HCGLPE280508.pdf
I'm shocked at the power that's been bestowed on gaelic in the Highlands. I wonder if our Highland Councillors in Caithness are using the bi-lingual sign issue to make a statememt about the power of the gaelic movement?
Someone told me to get a grip in an earlier thread and that Gaelic was not a disease. Well, I dont need their advice and although I have a fair dis-ease at this attack on my Caithness heritage by a movement well engrained in the corridors of power the least I can do is offer a dissenting voice on the org.
I'm pretty sure I'm right. That document would be a terrifying testament to the horrors of top-down social engineering if the Gaelic revival had any chance of significant success nationwide. Spoken Gaelic has been declining for centuries and the rescue plan is born out of desperation (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/ArtsCultureSport/arts/gaelic/gaelic-english#_ftn2), rightly or wrongly.
What bothers me most is the total cost of the programme, the cost of the roadsigns is essentially nil in comparison. It must be costing Highland Council a fortune so can you imagine how much is being spent nationwide?
My guess is that the Gaelic social engineering project will be as successful as the Soviet and Eastern European communist governments' attempts to replace Christianity with atheism in the long term.
pinotnoir
20-Apr-09, 13:43
From that document it appears that in the 2001 census there was a little over 12,000 gaelic speakers in Highland out of a population of just over 208,000 i.e. circa 6%.
On those figures it will only be a relatively short time before the language is defunct unless some measures are taken to encourage it's use.
When it dies then our descendents will be asking why we did not do more to save it.
Ive heard recently theres a society in England dedicated to bringing back the language and culture of Chaucer. The UK governmet have appointed an unelected quango to advise them on the best way forward. The Quango is made up of Chaucer academics and other assorted old English speakers and are paid a handsome retainer for their services. God forbid we ever get anything like that in Scotland.
pinotnoir
20-Apr-09, 14:22
That language is dead, Canan Nan Gaidheal may not die - it is our chance (some might argue responsibility) to keep it alive- why would we want to discourage its use?
That language is dead, Canan Nan Gaidheal may not die - it is our chance (some might argue responsibility) to keep it alive- why would we want to discourage its use?
Shouldn't you be supertitled duirceindubh? ;)
Please excuse my poor declining skills. :o
weeboyagee
20-Apr-09, 18:56
Sorry folks - just back from holidays.
Have I missed something? :confused:
WBG :cool:
I totally agree its up to us to save it reguardless of those who dont want it because they dont understand it or the culture.
From that document it appears that in the 2001 census there was a little over 12,000 gaelic speakers in Highland out of a population of just over 208,000 i.e. circa 6%.
On those figures it will only be a relatively short time before the language is defunct unless some measures are taken to encourage it's use.
When it dies then our descendents will be asking why we did not do more to save it.
Just the usual mindless debating about gaelic, and the fact that because of people being so against gaelic, The board na gael are discussing not to hold the Mod in Caithness which means if they dont Caithness wont get a much needed cash boost and it ll take Caithness down the ranks if that happens:~(
Sorry folks - just back from holidays.
Have I missed something? :confused:
WBG :cool:
northener
20-Apr-09, 23:28
Just the usual mindless debating about gaelic, and the fact that because of people being so against gaelic, The board na gael are discussing not to hold the Mod in Caithness which means if they dont Caithness wont get a much needed cash boost and it ll take Caithness down the ranks if that happens:~(
So, are you saying that the Mod is merely a 'cash boost' for Caithness?
So, are you saying that the Mod is merely a 'cash boost' for Caithness?
Probably a no-effort required cash boost.
pinotnoir
21-Apr-09, 00:48
For generations my ancestors were farm servants, perhaps doing a bit of fishing, they would keep any livestock in the croft with them, get their water from a spring, I was the first to go to university ... I'm out... I'm a 100% tcheuchter, the history of the Highlands is mine.
My antecedents were Highlanders, my culture is Highland why should I be forced to deny it?
Aaldtimer
21-Apr-09, 02:43
For generations my ancestors were farm servants, perhaps doing a bit of fishing, they would keep any livestock in the croft with them, get their water from a spring, I was the first to go to university ... I'm out... I'm a 100% tcheuchter, the history of the Highlands is mine.
My antecedents were Highlanders, my culture is Highland why should I be forced to deny it?
I'm a bit confused!
Who is forcing you to deny it?:confused
Alice in Blunderland
21-Apr-09, 06:35
Sorry folks - just back from holidays.
Have I missed something? :confused:
WBG :cool:
Nah storm in a teacup. :lol: Go back on holiday.
Sorry folks - just back from holidays.
Have I missed something? :confused:
WBG
Heard you had a good holiday, WBG, congratulations - you missed a fine video of some guy singing in the street on another thread!:lol:
What else did you miss?... Of course Pinotoir is still anxious about the Gaelic dying out... and of course I'm still worried about the history of Caithness being misrepresented by putting Gaelic roadsigns in the part of the county which has never historically been Gaelic and still isn't... and now I'm thinking that we might have to organise our very own Caithness Mod-ette in 2010 if your southern friends pull out, just so that my new Gaelic arrangements for our local bands can have a platform in Caithness...
On reflection, you've missed nothing, WBG, but welcome back! ;)
Does any language 'need' to be kept alive?
Does any language 'need' to be kept alive?
Theres a philosophical conundrum if ever there was one -
We could talk for ages about semoitics & Semantics and the inherent obstacles and contradication contained within all forms of communication. Our inability to establish truth or meaning and ultimately understand our fellow human being or make any sense of this universe.
In this universe the purity mathematics is not without its contradictions even before the intuitive rush of art that assualts our senses can take us to a completely diferent universe all together.
Do you prefer the spitritually empty but practical computer code or the spiritually rich but of no practical value poetry of Robbie Burns and Somhairle Maclean, of little ?
To paraphrase Somhairle, we are denied the simplicity and inevitability of life and death which the other beasts of this world enjoy and are condemned to wander the earth in search of something more - which we will never find...
The multitude of languages and forms of expression are testimony to our engagement with life...in all it glories, suffering and ecsatacy.
Every time another langauge dies - a little of our own life goes with it.
Here (http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/6485/Mod_is_to_stay_in_Caithness.html) are some extracts from yesterday's Courier.
THERE is no antagonism towards Gaelic in Caithness and the Royal National Mod will be staying put.
Referring to the story, "which appeared to have started within the Highland Council or close to the authority", Mr Macleod said: "Any bad publicity which indicates a resentment towards the Gaelic does it no good, especially when we are looking forward to a Mod to celebrate the language and culture.
"The committee has taken the initiative in setting the scene for the Mod and encouraged a positive attitude to it and the language through concerts and ceilidhs, which have been well attended.
"That is an indication that Caithness is not anti-Gaelic and that, generally speaking, there is no antagonism towards the language and the Mod."
Mr Macleod said he wanted to draw a line under the affair, but said of the "talks" issue: "We have regular meetings with the council which gives us funding and no doubt it will crop up.
"However, I see no point in making a big issue of this. We simply wanted to clarify the situation and stress our position. Preparations for the Mod in Caithness in 2010 are well under way.
"The organising committee has worked hard in raising funds and promoting Gaelic language and culture in the area. These activities have been strongly supported by the Caithness communities.
You only have to read the Gaelic threads on here to see some animosity towards Gaelic. Some of it is disguised as opposition to bilingual signposts but I suggest it goes deeper than that in some parts. I wonder how many people who claim to support the Mod coming to Caithness would still support it if it wasn't going to bring in any money.
Messrs Mcleod and Bremner sound nervous. They could try to turn this around by campaigning for local democracy and against bilingual signposts in Caithness. That would turn many of the sceptics and isolate the real language bigots.
weeboyagee
24-Apr-09, 14:07
Messr Bremner sounds nervous
Hmmmm,......
WBG :cool:
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