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Vistravi
15-Apr-09, 18:19
Abortion right or wrong? women's choice?

What do you think?

Fluff
15-Apr-09, 18:22
I don't think it is simply a case of right or wrong, it depends on the circumstances around it.

However I would say I am pro-choice.

starry
15-Apr-09, 18:25
Abortion right or wrong? women's choice?

What do you think?


What do you think Vis ?

emszxr
15-Apr-09, 18:33
you opening a couple of threads that may end up in a fight :lol:

Gene Hunt
15-Apr-09, 18:43
Depends on who you are talking about really.

I can think of a few politicians and Z list celebs who should never have been allowed to get as far as the birth canal.

starry
15-Apr-09, 18:45
Depends on who you are talking about really.

I can think of a few politicians and Z list celebs who should never have been allowed to get as far as the birth canal.


That made me really genuinely laugh [lol]

Antelope
15-Apr-09, 18:54
Thousands of woman around the world are forbidden by their country,s law to have an abortion.
But a group of courageous Dutch women have found a loophole that,s changing lives........
Womanonwaves.org:roll:

starry
15-Apr-09, 19:03
I don't understand the :roll: in your post Antelope ?


Thanks for the link, that is a really interesting site :)

Vistravi
15-Apr-09, 19:11
you opening a couple of threads that may end up in a fight :lol:

Aye i know. :lol: I'm in the controversel mood.


What do you think Vis ?

I think its got to be the woman's choice. No one knows what they'll do untill they're in the postion so for this one i couldn't say.

Rheghead
15-Apr-09, 19:18
I am definitely against abortion. So I do think that women should have the choice to keep their knickers on.

starry
15-Apr-09, 19:19
I feel the same Vistravi (http://forum.caithness.org/member.php?u=9517), I know several people who have had abortions and can't say it was an easy choice for any off them.
But in the long run it was for the best.

I think we are lucky to live in a country where women can have an abortion safely without risk to their healthy, freedom or person.

I didn't realise quite how many countries outlawed abortions until I read the site Antelope linked to.
It is quite heartbreaking to read some of the quotes.

starry
15-Apr-09, 19:20
I am definitely against abortion. So I do think that women should have the choice to keep their knickers on.


And men to keep it in their pants eh

Rheghead
15-Apr-09, 19:25
And men to keep it in their pants eh

No need really if women have the choice to say no to sex, but I would dread to think a woman would call rape just to have an abortion for just purely birth control purposes.

brandy
15-Apr-09, 19:26
normally, i am very pro life and anti-abortion.. but there are cases where it is in the best intrest of all to abort the baby.
if its a case.. of oops ive spread my legs and caught a baby, lets hop on down and have an abortion.. then very against it.. abortion is not birth control.
if you are a 9 year old child that has been raped and fall preg. and giving birth will most likley kill both the baby and the child then yes, i would say an abortion is called for.
if there is a severe malformation with the baby, and there are a few.. that are termed incompatable with life.. and they absolutly know that that poor child will never have a chance, and the short time its alive if it makes it that far will be misery.. then the humane things to do is to terminate..
there was a case in america recently where a teenage girl went in about an abortion.. and it turned out orribly wrong.. she was traumatised, as they forced her into labour, if i recall right this was aftr she changed her mind... the baby came to fast.. it was born alive.. and it was crying.. the young mother started screaming for her baby... they took the baby girl placed it in a plastic bag and threw it in the trash still alive. the d. then came in and drugged the girl.
the young mother filed charges, they found the baby, after autopsy showed that it had breathed, been born alive and died from prematurity and afixiation.. go figure..
in general abortion is wrong.. but there is always an exception to any rule. and each case should be carefully weighed.
and any woman planning an abortion should be counciled (well) before she makes a final choice. as a woman, YOU have to LIVE with YOUR CHOICE for the rest of YOUR LIFE.
there have been lots of women and girls that have commited suicide after going thru with an abortion. an unwanted pregnancy is one thing.. but facing yourself, after morally commiting murder is another...
(note: even though a lot of people would not consider it murder, to a lot of people it is.. a a good amount of the time its the women who have had the abortion that see it that way)
i know myself, after loosing two children, even though it was nothing that i did, nothing that i could have done to change what happened, i still sit in the quiet and think.. what did i do wrong?that somehow it was my fault.. and the guilt eats me.
imagine what an hrmone laden, emotionally burdened female feels afterwards..
but this is just the tip of the iceberg... and there are so many senario's that there could never be a yes or no answer..
that why i voted yes and no *G*

golach
15-Apr-09, 19:31
I am definitely against abortion. So I do think that women should have the choice to keep their knickers on.
I too am with you on this one Rheg, it takes two to tango [disgust]

Rheghead
15-Apr-09, 19:32
Just a bit confused with the issue of the negative in the poll question???? I could see being interpreted both ways right or wrong.

Vistravi
15-Apr-09, 19:51
Just a bit confused with the issue of the negative in the poll question???? I could see being interpreted both ways right or wrong.

Sorry Rheghead i've worded it wrong. should of said yes or no instead of wrong and right.

shazzap
15-Apr-09, 19:54
Entirely the womans choice IMO

ShelleyCowie
15-Apr-09, 19:56
There are hundreds of different circumstances for a woman to have an abortion.

Personally i could never bring myself to have an abortion. But thats me. There are women out there who have no choice due to illness during pregnancy etc etc.

Dadie
15-Apr-09, 20:04
The females choice ...
I would imagine the decision wouldnt be taken lightly and would reflect the personal circumstances at the time...
With the mother and the baby..
It takes 2 people to make a baby but often it is the woman left to look after it, if the man doesnt want to know.
I think if you dont want a baby you should concider your methods of contraception more carefully so you will not have to get to the thinking about abortion in the first place unless there was something wrong with the baby, and that goes for the boys as well!!

cuddlepop
15-Apr-09, 20:10
Its a difficult one just to give one answere.

yes its a womans choice and yes/no because it shouldnt be used as a contraceptive option but sometimes its in the mothers interest to abort.

honey
15-Apr-09, 20:34
right in some circumstances, but i am appalled when folk use it as a form of contraception.

Julia
15-Apr-09, 20:36
I am pro-life but I do believe there are certain circumstances when abortion is a viable option or necessity.

It's not as simple as wrong or right.

5050sarah
15-Apr-09, 20:46
its ones choice what they do with their bodys who is a doctor to say no to any1 because its against their own personal beliefs (and ur told not to bring ur life to work!!!) in cgh the gyni consultants are refusing to conduct such and operation because they do not believe in abortion if a person has several children and finds hard coping with what she has then it wouldnt be fair to bring another child in to that. the world has to many kids who are not wanted why bring another who isnt wanted? sori to sound harsh there.

to the ones who think these women who want a abortion should keep their pants on - sumtimes its just not that easy when the need takes u!!

scorrie
15-Apr-09, 21:10
Where is the Man's right in all of this?

Not all men are throwing their leg over and walking away without a care. What about a man who loves his partner and they agree to try for a child. The woman falls pregnant and the man is over the moon, dreaming about leading a daughter down the aisle, or a son walking out at Hampden on Cup Final day. The next thing the woman decides she wants an abortion. Oh that's all right then it's HER choice!!

Abortion is a highly unsatisfactory option and should only be used in the direst circumstances in my opinion. I don't think there is an option I can select, so I won't vote.

Rheghead
15-Apr-09, 21:28
to the ones who think these women who want a abortion should keep their pants on - sumtimes its just not that easy when the need takes u!!

Sadly there is some merit in what you say.

Abortion is the ultimate selfish act for a woman so as to avoid facing the consequences of her actions. The most precious thing, human life itself, is not even exempt from our throw-away society.:~(

squidge
15-Apr-09, 21:29
It has to be a woman's choice. Its not a choice I would make but the choice has to be there. No one could possibly want a return to the days of drinking a bottle of gin and throwing yourself down the stairs, or of visiting some back street room where some grubby unsanitary "procedure" takes place or where women try to do it themselves. We should be thankful that we have laws that allow us to have that level of control.



Abortion is the ultimate selfish act for a woman so as to avoid facing the consequences of her actions. The most precious thing, human life itself, is not even exempt from our throw-away society.:~(

That's a bit of a damning and sweeping statement - which is the most selfish - to have a child you cant or may not be able to provide for or love, or who's impact on your family may be devastating for a variety of reasons or to terminate a pregnancy after long hard thinking. What about a 12 year old girl who is pregnant - should she be compelled to continue with her pregnancy when she is little more than a child herself? If she takes the "selfish" decision to have an abortion would you be the one to tell her she cant? I have known several women, older and young who made the decision to terminate a pregnancy and not one of them took that decision lightly or at the drop of a hat, Not one of them made the decision without a sense of regret and failure, not one of them wouldn't have wished it were different and Not one of them had more than one abortion. When men think it is an easy and "throw away" decision they simply underline the fact that they have no idea about the agonies that go along with any pregnancy, never mnd one that may need to be terminated.

Alice in Blunderland
15-Apr-09, 21:39
in cgh the gyni consultants are refusing to conduct such and operation because they do not believe in abortion !


This is not true! :)

Tristan
15-Apr-09, 21:42
I am definitely against abortion. So I do think that women should have the choice to keep their knickers on.

...and men to keep their fly zipped?

Rheghead
15-Apr-09, 21:48
What about a 12 year old girl who is pregnant - should she be compelled to continue with her pregnancy when she is little more than a child herself? If she takes the "selfish" decision to have an abortion would you be the one to tell her she cant? .

If you aren't gonna spring another exceptional circumstance on me and if it was down to me then I would prosecute the boy for rape, the girl for aiding and abetting rape and any parents who knew that this was going on with also aiding and abetting. An abortion would be acceptable imho in this case of rape as it isn't just for 'idle' birth control.



When men think it is an easy and "throw away" decision they simply underline the fact that they have no idea about the agonies that go along with any pregnancy, never mnd one that may need to be terminated.

And talking of sweeping statements...:roll:

squidge
15-Apr-09, 21:57
And talking of sweeping statements...:roll:

sheesh rheghead - it must be catching!!!!!

12 year olds geting pregnant, 13, 14 is not that exceptional to be honest.

To many men the mysteries of pregnancy and the emotions that go along with it are exactly that - a mystery. Whilst they can make appropriate noises and be supportive and wonderful many men are not aware of the huge turmoil that a woman can experience with any pregnancy. That isnt necessarily a criticism -many women arent aware of it either until it hits them smack between the eyes and knocks them for six. But to suggest that it is an "ultimate selfish act" and is "avoiding the consequences" is a bit harsh and lacking in compassion when for most women its about dealing with the consequences in the best way possible for themselves and their families.

changilass
15-Apr-09, 21:58
There are women who have had multiple abortions simply as a form of contraception - this is the side of it that makes me sick.

Having said that, I still would not force these women to give birth. There are enough unwanted, and sadly abused kids, without bringing more into the world.

What the answer is I am not sure. Human rights will not allow for women to be steralised without their permission, even if it would be doing everyone a favour.

Where does the fathers rights come into the equation? You can't force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, but then, he also has no rights to say that he wants the abortion.

Its a lose lose situation.

5050sarah
15-Apr-09, 22:06
This is not true! :)
iam sure that it is true dont want to explain how i no this but its true!

Alice in Blunderland
15-Apr-09, 22:15
iam sure that it is true dont want to explain how i no this but its true!

All doctors according to the General Medical Councils ( GMC ) regulaions should not bring their personal, religous and cultural beliefs into making a clinical decision.

If this is the case then the doctor in question can be reported to the GMC who can then carry out an independant investigation regarding the allegation.If the allegation is found to be untrue and brings defame to the doctor he has the legal right to take the person making the accusation in turn to court for damages.

I am sure you have got it wrong in this case. :)

Sun Circle
15-Apr-09, 22:32
and any woman planning an abortion should be counciled (well) before she makes a final choice. as a woman, YOU have to LIVE with YOUR CHOICE for the rest of YOUR LIFE.

Brandy, I agree with everything you say in your post - you are spot on. I wanted to emphasise the need for counselling throughout and after the difficult times that surround any abortion.

I would like to try and give those men out there some idea of the agony involved... it can't be black and white, and its really so wrong to critisize or legislate against something so personal and so horribly complicated.

My first pregnancy was terminated at 16 weeks (which involves being induced and actually giving birth) due to severe complications with the baby. I had everyone giving me advice from the minute the problem was spotted at the 12 week scan - geneticists, surgeons, pediatricians, gynea, midwives... the works. Everyone had an opinion and everyone's opinion changed from one test to the next, from one scan to the next. It was a rollercoaster ride of raising hopes and then dashing them, then offering light again. It was an impossible time for me. Until, after the worst 4 weeks of my life, they all sat down together in one room and agreed that there was really nothing they could do to save my child. With some relief, the decision was made for me and at the time I thought it was by far the best and kindest thing for my baby. I really had no doubt at the time that this was the right choice.

After her birth and death I held my 16 week old fetus (she was a baby) for many hours - I marvelled at her beauty and her problems were evident even to the uneducated eye.

But I was offered no counselling at all (this was 10 years ago, so hopefully things have changed for the better).

A couple of years after the termination I fell into the blackest depression you can imagine which lasted on and off for several years until I finally faced the fact that I'd made the wrong choice for myself. I vowed that in future pregnancies I would carry the baby until a natural birth or death whatever the circumstances.

These are not decisions taken lightly - what is right for one woman is wrong for another. No-one is to blame and all options should be available.

I have forgiven myself for my decision - it seemed so right at the time and I do not blame the doctors. We all did our best in a difficult situation. But I would not do the same again.

I would not criticise anyone for doing whatever they feel is best for them and their baby.

barmar62
15-Apr-09, 22:41
This is for you Rheghead
What planet are you living on ? Abortion isn't just a form of birth control for women who are 'easy', its impossible to say what you would do unless you've been in a situation where you have had to decide.
Which is better, to bring a child into this life born of a mother who can't bear to look at him/her, who will misstreat and abuse him/her when there is an alternative, and what of the parents who know they can't adaquatly care for a child with special needs.
Just for the record I am against abortion personaly, (and I choose to work with children with special needs,) but ultimately it has to be the mothers decision, she's the one who'll have to deal with her decision everyday for the rest of her life.
( I'll get off my soap box now !)

Rheghead
15-Apr-09, 23:04
This is for you Rheghead
What planet are you living on ? Abortion isn't just a form of birth control for women who are 'easy', its impossible to say what you would do unless you've been in a situation where you have had to decide.
Which is better, to bring a child into this life born of a mother who can't bear to look at him/her, who will misstreat and abuse him/her when there is an alternative, and what of the parents who know they can't adaquatly care for a child with special needs.
Just for the record I am against abortion personaly, (and I choose to work with children with special needs,) but ultimately it has to be the mothers decision, she's the one who'll have to deal with her decision everyday for the rest of her life.
( I'll get off my soap box now !)

I think a mother who is in that situation should give up the child voluntarily upon birth so that the child could be given a good chance of life with a decent family. All that potential is lost at an abortion. Would we lose another mozart, Einstein or even a caring mother who wants to give her child something that her mother wouldn't give her? So selfish is an abortion that the mother is only thinking of herself when there are other options. What of the child's right to life? Agonise all you want but giving birth is not the end of the world unless there is a true medical reasons for an abortion.

I echo the opinions of many posters that abortion should not be used unless there are true medical or legal reasons for doing so. Using it as a form of contraception is just abhorrent to me. If my mrs turned round to me when she got pregnant (after years of trying to get pregnant and IVF etc) and said she wanted to get an abortion just because she had changed her mind and just because she can then I wouldn't know what I would have done. I would probably have the urge to throttle the living daylights out of her tbh but I would want her to have the child for me to look after and divorce her so that she can have her wish in that fantasy scenario.

I've heard it said that no woman gets over an abortion or a miscarriage.

just my 2p.

the poacher
15-Apr-09, 23:13
personaly its no for me

BUT it all depends on the sircumstances and the people their selfs
its no realy for us to say if its right or wrong.

Whitewater
15-Apr-09, 23:22
There are times when abortion seems to be the right thing to do. I can understand abortion after rape, genitical disorders in the foetus, etc. But it not a decision that can be taken lightly, and it should not be used as a method of birth control.
Some of the ladies writing in the thread have made excellent posts, trying to make us men, and other women as well, understand the emotional cost and heartache brought about by this act. It is not to be taken lightly. I did not vote, I did not know which way to vote, there can be so many different circumstances. But I am not one of these people who say that there should never be abortion.

purplelady
15-Apr-09, 23:43
I personally am againist it but having said that it depends on the circumstances if it was for my health then maybe i would consider it x

Aaldtimer
16-Apr-09, 02:50
[quote=Rheghead;533908]If you aren't gonna spring another exceptional circumstance on me and if it was down to me then I would prosecute the boy for rape, the girl for aiding and abetting rape and any parents who knew that this was going on with also aiding and abetting. An abortion would be acceptable imho in this case of rape as it isn't just for 'idle' birth control.

..."the girl for aiding and abetting rape"...??? Are you losing the plot here?[disgust]

The Angel Of Death
16-Apr-09, 11:33
[quote=Rheghead;533908]If you aren't gonna spring another exceptional circumstance on me and if it was down to me then I would prosecute the boy for rape, the girl for aiding and abetting rape and any parents who knew that this was going on with also aiding and abetting. An abortion would be acceptable imho in this case of rape as it isn't just for 'idle' birth control.

..."the girl for aiding and abetting rape"...??? Are you losing the plot here?[disgust]

Sex with someone under 12 (or is it 14 i cant remember) is automatically classed as statutory rape regardless of consent i think

I agree with abortion in some circumstances just find it difficult that in a (apparently) healthy relationship that a man has no rights to contest the abortion

Now i know all women are going to say its not a mans decision he doesn't have to carry the baby for 9 months etc etc but what if the father agrees to take on the child ala adoption style after the birth not all men are the scum of the earth i am not having anything to do with you because your knocked up style

scorrie
16-Apr-09, 11:40
special needs,) ultimately it has to be the mothers decision, she's the one who'll have to deal with her decision everyday for the rest of her life.


What about the Father denied a son or daughter?

I have experience of a friend who was in that situation. He wanted his partner to have the baby, the woman wanted to abort. He had to go along with her choice and their relationship ended shortly afterwards. Men love children as well you know!!

squidge
16-Apr-09, 12:13
See, its been said here that giving birth is not the end of the world. I would agree wholeheartedly - for me!!! However for many women it feels like the end of the world, financially, emotionally and physically. It can affect your career, your health, both mental and physical. It can ruin a relationship, it can be a time of huge anxiety and fear and pressure Despite pregnancy being largely a "state of health" it does carry significant risks and is in fact the riskiest time of a woman's life both emotionally and physically. Hopefully when in a strong loving relationship trying for a longed for baby it is also one of the most joyous but not for everyone. "its only nine months" is the cry but its nine of the longest months of your life -whether you want the baby or not. Even when desperately longing for a baby every day contains fear and hope and worry and desperation and tears and longing. Add to that carrying a baby you do not want and cant afford and cannot love it must be the most horrendous nine months of your life.

Fortunately we have a society which abortion for any reason is legal. I do not beleive it should be a form of contraception but i think to restrict it would be a retrograde step for women

Oddquine
16-Apr-09, 12:59
Entirely the woman's choice to have an abortion...........but it should never be used as another method of birth control.

I'm of the opinion it would be more useful adding the pill to water supplies rather than fluoride.....and to have a family, you just need to stop drinking water. Certainly more effective than the http://www.oddquine.co.uk/emoticons/crossed.gif method of birth control.

justine
16-Apr-09, 13:24
well im against it. Not all women make this choise because of circumstances. but purely because they dont want a child.They should have thought about that before the act. I have problems with contraceptives and have a large family,i could have removed a couple by termination but all babies have a right to life.They did not ask to be there.

Medical conditions can be another reason for termination, which i think is ok, if it can be proved that the baby when born cannot ever possibly have a full life ahead of them, but the way it is today children are surviving problems and are living a full and healthy life.

Children who are below age of consent find it hard to get contraceptives off doctors.My teen has alot of pain when menstuating and i know that the pill can help with this, but because she is 14 the doctor has tried her on something else, if this does not work then she will get the pill to help her, it does not mean i am consenting to her having sexual intercourse. They are many reasons why girls are getting terminations and it is their right but i dont agree with killing a baby and i will never change from that. I will never do it and i hope in the future my children will never have to make the decision.

To have a miscarriage is hard enough so to make a consious decision on terminating must be heart breaking.

Gene Hunt
16-Apr-09, 13:28
As I am not religous I can look at it practically, for instance if a woman is raped and gets pregnant who could argue with an abortion ??

The thing that makes me uncomfortable is the view that if the woman wants to have an abortion then it is her body and the man has no say at all. Lets face it if a woman has a child that the man does not want he has to support that child whether he wants to or not. It strikes me as unfair that the father has no rights on one side and has no choice on the other. It does take two to tango after all, or even bonk and make a baby.

I am pro choice though. After seeing some of the drooling, brain dead, abusive, workshy examples of humanity round my way I think we can afford to set the abortion age limit a bit higher in some cases, about 65 should cover it.

buddyrich
16-Apr-09, 13:51
I think the abortion issue is just a matter of dates-how many weeks should it be allowed at? Whether it should be allowed full stop is a ridiculous notion-of course it should, for all sorts of reasons-unwanted accident, rape etc.

I should say i find the religious arguements against it really dont take into account the real world-no surprise there i suppose.

I dont think it's a quick easy fix though. It's a sometimes necessary solution to difficult, sometimes nightmareish situations.

Men are pretty powerless but i cant see how that can be changed. Being more selective about who you do the nasty with i suppose.

gleeber
16-Apr-09, 14:02
Woman's choice.
There was a day when women had no rights and its not that long ago. Men with no rights these days, and I have been in that position in the past, have to get over it.

Vistravi
16-Apr-09, 14:08
No need really if women have the choice to say no to sex, but I would dread to think a woman would call rape just to have an abortion for just purely birth control purposes.

The women who use abortion as birth control are the stupid ones who can't be bothered taking the pill. They don't represent the sensible smart women jus the silly ones.

Penelope Pitstop
16-Apr-09, 14:42
And men to keep it in their pants eh

Well said Starry

It should be the woman's choice what to do or not to do with her body. Personal circumstances will be everything in making a decision.

Penelope Pitstop
16-Apr-09, 14:46
No need really if women have the choice to say no to sex, but I would dread to think a woman would call rape just to have an abortion for just purely birth control purposes.

Geezz, give women some credit...please. Why would you assume that she would say she had been raped to have an abortion - it is legal (here anyway).

Vistravi
16-Apr-09, 15:19
Men should have more rights but they tend to have a easier choice than women. Men can chose to walk or stay.
One of my friends fell pregnant while on the pill(It can be done) And ehr boyfriend told her to get an abortion as they were splitting up anyway and he didn't like broken homes. She refused and had the bairn and now has a 5 week old wee boy whos lovely and such a delight. The father is now refusing point blank that the wee boy is his and is missing out(in my opinion) on the biggest adventure of life.
I love children and enjoy working with them. They are treasures and should be loved with all their parents heart. I cannot understand how a parent can hate their child(Apart from postnatal depression) and go on to abuse them. Esp with so many people who cannot have children and want them so much.
I love working with children and seeing them smile when they trust me and know me or being able to do soemthing they couldn't do before brings me so much joy. i love their imangiton(spelling) and the way their minds work esp when they're young. They're a gift and need to be loved unconditonally with all their parents hearts.
I'm second oldest of 6 kids and i know that any children i have when i'm ready to have them will be loved so much and so well cared for. I had a happy childhood and through my great parents I learnt what is important in life and thats what i will be giving my children.

justine
16-Apr-09, 15:20
As I am not religous I can look at it practically, for instance if a woman is raped and gets pregnant who could argue with an abortion ??

The thing that makes me uncomfortable is the view that if the woman wants to have an abortion then it is her body and the man has no say at all. Lets face it if a woman has a child that the man does not want he has to support that child whether he wants to or not. It strikes me as unfair that the father has no rights on one side and has no choice on the other. It does take two to tango after all, or even bonk and make a baby.

I am pro choice though. After seeing some of the drooling, brain dead, abusive, workshy examples of humanity round my way I think we can afford to set the abortion age limit a bit higher in some cases, about 65 should cover it.


I agree with you, but there are instances where women have an abortion because they are forced by their men, also ones remove a baby to keep a man because he does not want to be a father, so it swings both sides on this.

pinotnoir
16-Apr-09, 15:24
A humane society must allow women the choice and follow that up with the fullest support of their (agonising) decision whatever that may be.

Rheghead
16-Apr-09, 18:18
I do think that there should be a reduction in the maximum time for an abortion to take place from 24 weeks to 16 weeks. I wouldn't want to see a foetus to take the best part of a morning to die away in a bin. :(

gleeber
16-Apr-09, 18:30
I do think that there should be a reduction in the maximum time for an abortion to take place from 24 weeks to 16 weeks. I wouldn't want to see a foetus to take the best part of a morning to die away in a bin. :(
Have you got a source for that claim? It sounds awful. :(

starry
16-Apr-09, 20:05
I do think that there should be a reduction in the maximum time for an abortion to take place from 24 weeks to 16 weeks. I wouldn't want to see a foetus to take the best part of a morning to die away in a bin. :(


I think you will find that terminations over 20 weeks involve the mother taking medication induce labour, this in effect stops supply to the baby, therefore it will not be "taking the best part of a morning to die away in a bin"

Having worked in this area I can assure you on this.

squidge
16-Apr-09, 23:51
I do think that there should be a reduction in the maximum time for an abortion to take place from 24 weeks to 16 weeks. I wouldn't want to see a foetus to take the best part of a morning to die away in a bin. :(

A blanket reduction to 16 weeks is not feasible. lets assume your 12 week scan goes ok - its a dating scan remember - they are simply checking for the number of babies and heartbeats and checking sizes for dates.

You doesn't get the triple blood test which is the first screening for downs or other abnormalities til 16 weeks. ( unless you can afford or are offered on the NHS a nuchal scan which we are not offered in highland but you can buy one in Aberdeen) It can take a week at least to get the results and then there is a call back to discuss with the consultant what to do next - so here we are at 17 weeks - all providing you were bang on with your dates for the 16 week test. If there is a problem you then have to decide whether to have an amniocentesis or further invasive testing - that may be a decision that will take a wee while to make - especially if you have had miscarriages previously as the amnio does carry about a 1% chance of miscarriage. If you opt for an amnio then you have to wait for the results - these can be rushed through so you should get results quite quickly but you are likely around 18 weeks by this time and then you have to make the decision to terminate or not.

If your triple test is ok and you have opted for an amnio anyway (age usually means you get offered this) This isnt normally done untul you are 18 weeks pregnant as routine.

Lets assume you are not offered an amnio because you are under 35 and your triple test is ok, the next time you might see a problem is your 20 week scan which is carried out anytime between 18 and 22 weeks. Anything major picked up here is going to need further exploration and testing so - bingo - you are fast approaching 24 weeks and have already sailed through 16 weeks.

These dates assume that you arent ill, or on holiday or otherwise unable to book in at the correct times for all these tests. You might be a couple of weeks out and then you have very little time to make any sort of informed decision.

purplelady
16-Apr-09, 23:53
I just find this subject so hard having lost 3 babies , i fell pregnant at 35 and had my son who is 13 now, was going though a really bad time in my relationship at the time and maybe could have taken the option to abort, which is what my sister in law at the time told me to do all I can say is
thank goodness I did not x

Vistravi
17-Apr-09, 00:07
I'm sorry to hear you suffered the loss of three babies. They're smiling down from heaven with the angels right now i'm sure purplelady.If they could they'd have had you as their mum.
At least you have your son after such a hard blow. :) I hope he knows how lucky he is to have you.

anneoctober
17-Apr-09, 00:37
I voted - No (or wrong) - I can't see it any other way, yes possibly because I lost a baby at 28 weeks my view is biased. Our little boy struggled hard to stay with us, that will be 33 years ago on 13th June. The pain never goes away , and it was through no cause/fault of our own - the decision was taken out of our hands. To actually decide to abort your baby and subsequently live with the consequences is something I could not , and would not do. The lesser of these evils would be having the baby and then giving him/her up for adoption. There are couples out there desperate for a family , why kill when you can give the gift of life and love to another couple willing to share their lives with such a precious gift.

Rheghead
17-Apr-09, 00:47
A blanket reduction to 16 weeks is not feasible.

Good post, so I might have wittled the (up the) stick a little too much. I am a bit concerned about the reports of couples aborting due to sex preferences after their 20 week scan when sexing can be more or less be accurately determined.

justine
17-Apr-09, 11:20
I voted - No (or wrong) - I can't see it any other way, yes possibly because I lost a baby at 28 weeks my view is biased. Our little boy struggled hard to stay with us, that will be 33 years ago on 13th June. The pain never goes away , and it was through no cause/fault of our own - the decision was taken out of our hands. To actually decide to abort your baby and subsequently live with the consequences is something I could not , and would not do. The lesser of these evils would be having the baby and then giving him/her up for adoption. There are couples out there desperate for a family , why kill when you can give the gift of life and love to another couple willing to share their lives with such a precious gift.

Im sorry for your loss. I know how hard it is to lose a child and i am thankful that my surviving children are all healthy.Its the worst thing that can happen to a woman, IMO that is.:~(

changilass
17-Apr-09, 11:44
Good post, so I might have wittled the (up the) stick a little too much. I am a bit concerned about the reports of couples aborting due to sex preferences after their 20 week scan when sexing can be more or less be accurately determined.


Due to this happening, lots of health authorities will not allow you to know the sex of your child, which is really sad for those who genuinely want to know.

honey
17-Apr-09, 11:58
Abortion is the ultimate selfish act for a woman so as to avoid facing the consequences of her actions. The most precious thing, human life itself, is not even exempt from our throw-away society.:~(

thats a hellish statement. When i was pregnant with my now 2 year old, i was told i was high risk for downs syndorme. when i went for the counselling session, i was told this could be from mild, to serious (due to heart problems)

we had been trying for a year for this baby, but if it had been at risk of a fatal condition, i would have chosen an abortion. The main reason is i could not put my 6 year old through the experience me having a baby that i knew was going to die.

not all abortions are down to reckless females getting "up the duff" - just speak to women who have aborted long for babies, or rape victims!! :mad:

squidge
17-Apr-09, 12:20
Good post, so I might have wittled the (up the) stick a little too much. I am a bit concerned about the reports of couples aborting due to sex preferences after their 20 week scan when sexing can be more or less be accurately determined.

Not if it has its legs crossed it cant!!!!! We STILL dont know lol -this baby is determined to keep it a secret.

Despite me being 45 The Bruce and I decided the only test we would have with this baby was the twenty week scan which appeared to be fine. We had a call back for the triple test with our darling wee boy because we had shown a high risk for downs. We had to think about whether to have an amnio or not. Having lost three babies the pain and anguish never ever leaves you and i was not prepared to take the 1% risk that we might have miscarried. As there was no chance on this earth that i was going to terminate whatever the result we decided it made no difference and simply crossed our fingers. We were blessed with a very healthy boy - we are very lucky.

However, this action is fine for ME. I am happy that i did the right thing for ME. I absolutely know that other women agonise over this decision and sometimes the right decision for them is to terminate. To say they are wrong to do that could be cruel and belittles the agonies that many women suffer when making these decisions. The choice they make stays with them the whole of their lives and many of them will question whether they did the right thing for years and years. However it is still right that they have the choice to do whats right for them and their families.

Abortion is wrong for me but right for society. It is right that there is a choice and that women are able to excercise control over their own fertility, their own grief nd their own tradgedies. I could not agree with any action to remove that right from women.

GetWithTheTimes
17-Apr-09, 12:55
well this is my opinion and it will probably offend but i think there is nothing wrong with abortion, if it was an accidental pregnancy and neither want to have ids why have one and ruin your life by bringing up an unwanted kid and ruining the kids life by bringing it up unwanted??? when you have an abortion its not even a kid everyone gets these hangups your killing a wee baern when its not a kid by the time its anywhere near a kid its too late to have an abortion so really i dont think there is anything wrong with it, i dont agree girls should go around having unprotected sex all the time and using abortion as birth control but i dont see why anyone should object or try to change the mind of anyone who wants an abortion if they dont want the kid there is no point in having it and the world is over populated as it is anyway maybe partially to do with all the parents and family who convince and pester there kids to go through with having a kid when they would rather of got rid of it and got on with there life and done some of the things they wanted to in life

Vistravi
17-Apr-09, 16:45
Not if it has its legs crossed it cant!!!!! We STILL dont know lol -this baby is determined to keep it a secret.

He/she wants to be a surprise:D your babe doesn't want you to know what it'll be.[lol]

hails4
17-Apr-09, 16:52
Abortion is part of population control so i voted yes. I feel that although the woman may want to have a child they MUST be able to support financially and lovingly the baby. Some only have babies to mooch of the government, other have babies to gain finances to enhance their drug addictions.

mrs and mr brown
18-Apr-09, 11:53
well i voted womans choice now...... i think thats its a very hard choice to make for some { ill explain } and some far to easy.....

after have two misscarriages one last year on one this year both between 3 and 4 months i know how hard it is to lose a baby, the guilt ect however i can never get my head around women that think o im pregnant dont really want a baby just now ill have an abortion, sorry love but if you dont want to get preggers the go on some form of contraceptive and use a flamming condom its not hard.............

however if the woman shall we say becomes preggers threw and act of crime then thats a different matter, and should not be judged.

i could go on but i will spare you lovely people from my rants he he.

mrs and mr brown
18-Apr-09, 12:01
i would also like to put though that i have had a few pals in the past that have had abortions and after they have done the deed shall i say that when people say " oh your looking well i heard that your pregnant" the pal has looked and said yeah i was but i misscarried.............

NOW HERES THE RANT!!!!!!!!!!

no you didnt you didnt wanna have a baby cause you all ready have one and as i woman that has had a misscarriage never say that you did if you didnt just tell people the truth, im sorry but i feel that if you can make the decision that your gunna have unprotected sex and tell a few people oh im preganat then you should have the guts to say oh yeah i was but i had a abortion, and stop hidding behind every pregnant womans fears.........

needless to say aint a pal anymore and never will be again,

RANT OVER!!!!!!!!!!

Vistravi
18-Apr-09, 16:29
i would also like to put though that i have had a few pals in the past that have had abortions and after they have done the deed shall i say that when people say " oh your looking well i heard that your pregnant" the pal has looked and said yeah i was but i misscarried.............

NOW HERES THE RANT!!!!!!!!!!

no you didnt you didnt wanna have a baby cause you all ready have one and as i woman that has had a misscarriage never say that you did if you didnt just tell people the truth, im sorry but i feel that if you can make the decision that your gunna have unprotected sex and tell a few people oh im preganat then you should have the guts to say oh yeah i was but i had a abortion, and stop hidding behind every pregnant womans fears.........

needless to say aint a pal anymore and never will be again,

RANT OVER!!!!!!!!!!

She was obv a coward to admit to people the truth. Some people can do things such as have an abortion in your ex friends case, but can't admit to it as they don't have the guts to put up with people talking about them behind theyre backs and slagging them off.

emc246
20-Aug-09, 00:57
If you have been in my situation and suffered 3 devastating miscarriages, you will feel strongly against abortion due to the fact that you know how it feels to want so much to have a baby and have gone through loosing them.

Some people don't know how lucky they are to have children, they take it for granted. Rheghead was right when he said a woman never really gets over a miscarriage, I can vouch for this.

In that respect I am against abortion because of what I have been through. But of course, in circumstances where a child has fallen pregnant through rape or abuse, for example, then that's totally different.

honey
20-Aug-09, 16:08
I am definitely against abortion. So I do think that women should have the choice to keep their knickers on.

ok, what about instances where the woman DIDNT have that choice!!

Alan16
20-Aug-09, 17:03
If you have been in my situation and suffered 3 devastating miscarriages, you will feel strongly against abortion due to the fact that you know how it feels to want so much to have a baby and have gone through loosing them.

Some people don't know how lucky they are to have children, they take it for granted. Rheghead was right when he said a woman never really gets over a miscarriage, I can vouch for this.

In that respect I am against abortion because of what I have been through. But of course, in circumstances where a child has fallen pregnant through rape or abuse, for example, then that's totally different.

There is no way that the following will not sound harsh so I'm sorry for that because I don't want it to be that way.

For a start, you are using multiple measuring sticks. You'd be happy to allow a woman who can support a child in a healthy environment to abort a child because she'd been raped, however you'd not allow a poor homeless women to abort because of your morals? Your saying to the homeless woman who had unprotected sex, that she has to live with the consequences, but the other woman doesn't because she was raped. You either believe it is morally wrong or you don't - no ifs or buts.

I, am pro choice. Always will be. There is no way I would allow you, or anyone else, to decide that for me. As I said, no offence intended.

WickWitch
20-Aug-09, 21:09
I've suffered both a still birth and a miscarriage but never would I expect a woman to do anything other than what is right for her. Bringing up a child is never easy even in a mature and committed relationship.
Pregnancies can happen even when using contraception so it is unfair to condemn someone who does fall pregnant accidentally.
However, to use abortion as a form of contraception is not acceptable in my view.
Abortion is an emotive subject and many people hold strong and fixed views which is their right BUT none of us have the right to impose our own views on others. We live in a democracy which allows abortion but I cannot think that it will ever be an easy choice for a women.

Rheghead
21-Aug-09, 00:40
ok, what about instances where the woman DIDNT have that choice!!

So you would kill an innocent baby for another man's crime eh?

mama2
21-Aug-09, 00:59
So you would kill an innocent baby for another man's crime eh?

Would you expect a woman to bring up a child that was the result of a rape? Would you expect her to look at that child every day and be reminded of what happened to her?
Yes the child is innocent but what about the woman?
I hope to god I never land in that situation so I can't really answer your question but I probably would in that situation.
How would you feel if your wife was pregnant as the result of a rape? Could you bring that baby up as your own and look at it every day knowing what that child's biological father had done?

ShelleyCowie
21-Aug-09, 11:11
There is no right or wrong answer here. People are entitled to their own views and opinions on this topic.

There always be a debate whether abortion is right or wrong.

I believe it is up to the individual. Its not up to anybody else to change someones mind by guilt or any other means.

People may think my view is wrong but thats ok. I know my own opinion, and i stick to it.

_Ju_
21-Aug-09, 12:03
It is very noble to look at the life of an innocent baby and defend it. But not everyone is noble. Each of us has an opinion on abortion, and just like with everything else in life, there will be a million different opinions from a million individuals.
My opinion: abortions will happen, legal or not. Some people will use it as contraception, others will suffer horrors trying to make a very difficult choice. But the choice has to exist. If you withdraw the choice, you chase abortion back into the twilight and cause suffering not only to the women who will still choose abortion, but also to the innocent babies. It is the choice of one individual. It has to be, because like it or not, men, it is the woman that has to carry and bear the child.
What I do find horrendous are the late abortions. Why can a person elect to have an abortion at a stage when the foetus is viable (with medical care)? I know that some tests can only be carried out at advanced stages and fair enough, if at that point they would want to make that choice...ok. But to spend 26 weeks deciding if you want a baby or not, to decide not to and abort, a horrible horrible thing and should not be allowed (legal in the USA where you can choose abortion up to 26 weeks; medically indicated terminations can be carried out up to 36 weeks there). That child in that womb is a non entity, though it could survive if it were born. And having been born, it is entitled to all the rights and protections any human being is, and killing him/her would be murder.
So what do I think: it is right, or wrong? I don't know. I do know what feels right and wrong for me. The woman in the next seat knows for her and I have no right to impose my feelings on the matter on her.

Alan16
21-Aug-09, 12:35
It is very noble to look at the life of an innocent baby and defend it. But not everyone is noble.

That sounds like you are saying I don't want to protect the life of a baby. Pro choice is not the un-noble choice. If anything, pro life is the un-noble choice, it is taking away the mothers option and forcing her to have a child which she might not eb able to support. And I hate it when people try and suggest that abortion is killing a baby. It is a foetus - it has no feelings, it does not feel anything, it is not alive. Abortion has nothing to do with "babies". That is disingenuous crap from the pro-lifers.

_Ju_
21-Aug-09, 12:51
That sounds like you are saying I don't want to protect the life of a baby. Pro choice is not the un-noble choice. If anything, pro life is the un-noble choice, it is taking away the mothers option and forcing her to have a child which she might not eb able to support. And I hate it when people try and suggest that abortion is killing a baby. It is a foetus - it has no feelings, it does not feel anything, it is not alive. Abortion has nothing to do with "babies". That is disingenuous crap from the pro-lifers.

Do you ever read past the first line? Do you ever read in context?

Rheghead
21-Aug-09, 13:16
Would you expect a woman to bring up a child that was the result of a rape? Would you expect her to look at that child every day and be reminded of what happened to her?
Yes the child is innocent but what about the woman?

She doesn't have to keep the child. But I would expect that most would want to after all the hormones kick in.

honey
21-Aug-09, 15:31
She doesn't have to keep the child. But I would expect that most would want to after all the hormones kick in.

Its not that easy....

Im pregnant just now, my baby is inside me kicking every day, letting me know he is alive and well. I LOVE my new son to bits - even when the kicks and nudges get painful, but i can only imagine how horiffic everything that i delight in just now would feel if i was in the shoes of a girl that had been raped and DIDNT want this to be happening to her.

honey
21-Aug-09, 15:32
So you would kill an innocent baby for another man's crime eh?

i woudnt see it has killing a baby - thats another debate

but i wouldnt expect a woman to pay/suffer further for another mans crime.

(sorry for seperate posts, didnt see this one at first.. x)

redeyedtreefrog
21-Aug-09, 21:37
What's better, a baby born to a childhood with either a crack-addicted 14-year-old, her pathetic mother, or the care system to care for it; or no baby at all, in which case the only thing to suffer would be a foetus that can't feel anything anyway?

mama2
21-Aug-09, 23:05
She doesn't have to keep the child. But I would expect that most would want to after all the hormones kick in.

You are assuming that maternal instincts would kick in which is not always the case. Anyway I'm not going to keep going round the houses and debating what I feel is right and you feel is wrong.

At the end of the day abortion is legal and I doubt very much if that will ever change. It is up to the woman to make the choice and up to 2 doctors to agree before the procedure can take place.

Rheghead
22-Aug-09, 00:29
You are assuming that maternal instincts would kick in which is not always the case.

Then you agree with me that most will.

Aaldtimer
22-Aug-09, 03:22
...."And I hate it when people try and suggest that abortion is killing a baby. It is a foetus - it has no feelings, it does not feel anything"...
then why have I seen a film of a foetus sucking it's thumb?:confused

Rheghead
22-Aug-09, 03:34
And I hate it when people try and suggest that abortion is killing a baby. It is a foetus - it has no feelings, it does not feel anything, it is not alive. Abortion has nothing to do with "babies". That is disingenuous crap from the pro-lifers.

Hmm, my wife was told to play classical music while she was pregnant by a fully qualified nurse. Foetuses respond to outside stimuli. They feed and respire and excrete. How many characteristics of being alive do I need to point out to convince you that it is alive and has feelings?:confused

There are many adult people who are alive that don't have as many senses as a foetus and have far more human rights.

The 24 week limit on abortion is an arbitrary time period just to fulfil a legal requirement. It has nothing to do with foetuses not having feelings.

ter21wat
22-Aug-09, 09:36
If only baby Peter and baby Brandons 'mothers' had had an abortion instead of taking the poor little souls into this world when they obviously couldnt be bothered/were not fit to love and care for them - at least then they wouldnt have had to suffer the horrific, sickening abuse that they endured in their short lives.

I would also like to say that alot of people on here are assuming that abortion is being used as a form of contraceptive, which may be true for some, but probably not most.

Some people do not want have children, or at least dont want them at that time in their lives, and use contraceptive - the pill, injection, condoms - but these are not all fool proof and you can still fall pregnant accidentally. These people may have chosen to use contraceptive so's not to fall pregnant as possibly they couldnt afford to bring up a child at the time and couldnt offer the child the best possible start in life that the majority of us hope to give our children - are they selfish for aborting a child so's not to bring it into a world living on benifits and scraping by?? Should they be expected to have the child adpoted - possibly living in a childrens homes or being passed rounnd foster carers since there are so many unwanted children in this world??

There is a number of people on here who have lost babies or are unable to have babies and are against abortion who i symathise with but I do not agree with. How is expecting someone to have a child, who feels they cant look after it or offer it the best, helping anyone who cant have children? Yes the baby may be put up for adoption where a childless couple may be able to give it a good, loving home but i think most people would try IVF before adopting (often resulting in twins/triples) leaving unwanted babies unwanted. Fair enough if this country didnt already have a huge number of unwanted children living with foster parents/in childrens homes that may never find an adoptive family! These poor children who are passed from pillar to post, never knowing what its like to have a family to love them, often failing to do well in life due to their circumatances.

Also on a previous post someone mentioned that doctors will turn people away when looking for an abortion if its against their beliefs and another poster told this person they were wrong as they are not allowed to do this. I can assure that doctors can and do! My very close friend decided to have an abortion (again not a decision that was taken lightly) and i supported her through it all. She arranged an appointment at Riverbank Surgery in Thurso to discuss it with a doctor and i went with her for moral support. When she explained to the doctor the reason for her appointment he told her he did not agree with abortion and she would have to make an appointment with another doctor to discuss her situation. So it does happen.

Alan16
22-Aug-09, 22:10
Hmm, my wife was told to play classical music while she was pregnant by a fully qualified nurse. Foetuses respond to outside stimuli. They feed and respire and excrete. How many characteristics of being alive do I need to point out to convince you that it is alive and has feelings?:confused

There are many adult people who are alive that don't have as many senses as a foetus and have far more human rights.

The 24 week limit on abortion is an arbitrary time period just to fulfil a legal requirement. It has nothing to do with foetuses not having feelings.

You seem to be suggesting that because they can hear they can feel pain. Again with eating and breathing. The foetus is alive - I am not arguing that, that is just a straw man you've created - in the sense that it is made up of cells which form an organism which breathes etc. The foetus, though, does not feel pain until the 28th week. The 24 week limit is anything but arbitrary, don't be so ridiculous.

Let us be clear on terms here. "Feeling pain" is not the same as "feelings". "Feelings" are stuff like "love" and "happiness/sadness". "Feeling pain" is the physical and mental reaction to pain. It has nothing to do with any of the crap you're spouting. The foetus does not feel pain until the 28th week because the thalamus is not created until at least the 28th week. The thalamus is needed to feel pain.

golach
22-Aug-09, 22:19
You seem to be suggesting that because they can hear they can feel pain. Again with eating and breathing. The foetus is alive - I am not arguing that, that is just a straw man you've created - in the sense that it is made up of cells which form an organism which breathes etc. The foetus, though, does not feel pain until the 28th week. The 24 week limit is anything but arbitrary, don't be so ridiculous.

Let us be clear on terms here. "Feeling pain" is not the same as "feelings". "Feelings" are stuff like "love" and "happiness/sadness". "Feeling pain" is the physical and mental reaction to pain. It has nothing to do with any of the crap you're spouting. The foetus does not feel pain until the 28th week because the thalamus is not created until at least the 28th week. The thalamus is needed to feel pain.
You seem to suggest that a foetus is not a living being, the heartbeat can be seen and felt by most mothers at around 6 to 8 weeks old.

Alan16
22-Aug-09, 22:31
You seem to suggest that a foetus is not a living being, the heartbeat can be seen and felt by most mothers at around 6 to 8 weeks old.

I clearly said that it is a living organism. You are arguing against the same straw man that the other person created. I never argued against this. Stop arguing with me on a point that I didn't even make.

Moira
22-Aug-09, 22:59
Abortion right or wrong? women's choice?

What do you think?

If only it were that simple. I suggest you grow up a little Vistravi and then learn how to post a meaningful poll on the subject. :D

_Ju_
22-Aug-09, 23:49
You seem to be suggesting that because they can hear they can feel pain. Again with eating and breathing. The foetus is alive - I am not arguing that, that is just a straw man you've created - in the sense that it is made up of cells which form an organism which breathes etc. The foetus, though, does not feel pain until the 28th week. The 24 week limit is anything but arbitrary, don't be so ridiculous.

Let us be clear on terms here. "Feeling pain" is not the same as "feelings". "Feelings" are stuff like "love" and "happiness/sadness". "Feeling pain" is the physical and mental reaction to pain. It has nothing to do with any of the crap you're spouting. The foetus does not feel pain until the 28th week because the thalamus is not created until at least the 28th week. The thalamus is needed to feel pain.

The structures necessary to feeling pain and reactions to painful stimuli in foetuses are present at 8 weeks (not 28 as you suggest). The thalamus is present and working at 8 weeks in a human foetus.

Rheghead
22-Aug-09, 23:53
You seem to be suggesting that because they can hear they can feel pain. Again with eating and breathing. The foetus is alive - I am not arguing that, that is just a straw man you've created - in the sense that it is made up of cells which form an organism which breathes etc. The foetus, though, does not feel pain until the 28th week. The 24 week limit is anything but arbitrary, don't be so ridiculous.

Let us be clear on terms here. "Feeling pain" is not the same as "feelings". "Feelings" are stuff like "love" and "happiness/sadness". "Feeling pain" is the physical and mental reaction to pain. It has nothing to do with any of the crap you're spouting. The foetus does not feel pain until the 28th week because the thalamus is not created until at least the 28th week. The thalamus is needed to feel pain.

Is that your only parameter, you think it is right to kill a child only if it can't feel pain? You have absolutely no care for its potential.

Could you do it yourself?

Anne x
23-Aug-09, 00:08
You seem to be suggesting that because they can hear they can feel pain. Again with eating and breathing. The foetus is alive - I am not arguing that, that is just a straw man you've created - in the sense that it is made up of cells which form an organism which breathes etc. The foetus, though, does not feel pain until the 28th week. The 24 week limit is anything but arbitrary, don't be so ridiculous.

Let us be clear on terms here. "Feeling pain" is not the same as "feelings". "Feelings" are stuff like "love" and "happiness/sadness". "Feeling pain" is the physical and mental reaction to pain. It has nothing to do with any of the crap you're spouting. The foetus does not feel pain until the 28th week because the thalamus is not created until at least the 28th week. The thalamus is needed to feel pain.

you idiot tell that to the mother who cannot carry and miscarries pain of the loss to her and family and the child she lost how do you know the foetus carries no pain he it she was a very much wanted child dont you be ridiculous

Alan16
23-Aug-09, 01:03
The structures necessary to feeling pain and reactions to painful stimuli in foetuses are present at 8 weeks (not 28 as you suggest). The thalamus is present and working at 8 weeks in a human foetus.

It is simply a lie to say that foetuses can feel pain when they are 8 weeks old. The thalamus is not fully developed and in contact with the nerves until 28 weeks and a foetus will therefore not feel pain. It is scientifically proven. Initially I thought you were making the mistake of thinking that because it has nerves by the time it is 8 weeks old, it can feel pain. This is a mistake, because they do not interact with the thalamus in the brain until 28 weeks, so anything painful that happens to it, will not cause any pain because the brain does not receive the signals from the nerves. It is hard to explain, but it is scientifically proven that this is so.


Is that your only parameter, you think it is right to kill a child only if it can't feel pain? You have absolutely no care for its potential.

Could you do it yourself?

No, I do not have the necessary medical experience. Oh, is it not misrepresent-another-users-views-day? I have explained in another comment my moral views on this subject. In the post you quote I was talking about the science behind it. This is a topic where emotions, and what goes with them, should be left out, because it stops any objective debate on the matter.


you idiot tell that to the mother who cannot carry and miscarries pain of the loss to her and family and the child she lost how do you know the foetus carries no pain he it she was a very much wanted child dont you be ridiculous

I am pro-choice. I've said that, and I've explained why. What I was talking about was the objective, scientific, nature of the scenario. It is fact that a foetus does not feel pain until it is 28 weeks old. Abortion is not the same as miscarrying. I have sympathy with the people you outline in your scenario, but these people and their scenario have no part in this discussion.

crayola
23-Aug-09, 01:29
Alan sweetie, since you're so keen on science could you please provide us with scientific references?

You could be making all this up for all I know.

Alan16
23-Aug-09, 01:32
I can. I shall get them then post back.

Alan16
23-Aug-09, 01:47
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9053416/

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/fetal-pain.shtml

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/1193/

http://www.nrlc.org/ABORTION/Fetal_Pain/Proabortionlinktostudy.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20050824/ai_n14907416/

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=13309

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20050907.html

http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain

All of these are by scientists or talk about research done by scientists. They all clearly state that it takes 28 weeks for the pain nerves and the pain part of the brain to hook up.

crayola
23-Aug-09, 02:07
All of these are by scientists or talk about research done by scientists. They all clearly state that it takes 28 weeks for the pain nerves and the pain part of the brain to hook up.
Thanks for the links, I appreciate your industry, but as far as I can tell not one of those articles was written by a scientist. Most are by run of the mill journos whose knowledge of the subject is probably as close to nil as makes no difference.

The one in Discover Magazine is tolerably acceptable and some of the others contain proper references which I shall peruse at my leisure, so thanks again.

Alan16
23-Aug-09, 02:25
It is a bit of a problem trying to find the actual articles all these things refer to, probably simply due to the amount of results returned on such a search. If you could get your hands on the article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) mentioned in one of the above links (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20050907.html) (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20050907.html%20this%20one), then that would probably be worth a read. If you could, in fact, get your hands on any of the articles the links I posted refer to, they would be well worth reading, but until then the secondary sources were all I could find.

I suppose this whole debate is, in the end, rather futile. One group believes one thing, and the other group another, almost to fundamentalist extremes (and I'm not naive enough to presume I'm not in either) and both are probably unwilling to listen to empirical evidence one way or another.

Rheghead
23-Aug-09, 03:17
This is a topic where emotions, and what goes with them, should be left out, because it stops any objective debate on the matter.

If that is your view and you are keeping your emotions out of the debate then I would suggest that you are the least qualified to speak upon it. (don't think I'm stifling the debate btw, I just don't think you can discuss the life and death of a baby unless you consult your emotions.)

_Ju_
23-Aug-09, 09:43
It is simply a lie to say that foetuses can feel pain when they are 8 weeks old. The thalamus is not fully developed and in contact with the nerves until 28 weeks and a foetus will therefore not feel pain. It is scientifically proven. Initially I thought you were making the mistake of thinking that because it has nerves by the time it is 8 weeks old, it can feel pain. This is a mistake, because they do not interact with the thalamus in the brain until 28 weeks, so anything painful that happens to it, will not cause any pain because the brain does not receive the signals from the nerves. It is hard to explain, but it is scientifically proven that this is so.


In other words, they percieve pain (because they do have physiological pain reactions), but do not comprehend it. Does an animal that does not comprehend the pain it is feeling, actually feel pain?

Please understand that I believe people have to have the choice to abortion. Taking away that choice is not an option unless you want to cause even more suffering to people, born or unborn. But don't make it pretty. It is a procedure carried out to kill a life, often when it is already viable, and it hurts one person physically and the other psychologically. If a person makes that choice then they have to live with the consequences to themselves and to what they inflicted on the foetus, without embelishments intended to sooth their conscience.

What I don't understand is how can a person choose to have an abortion up to 28 weeks ( That is at 7 months gestation), when babies are considered medically viable at 24 weeks (babies of 23 weeks often suvive. The youngest premature survivor is at 21 weeks gestation). Your place of residence determines what rights you do or don't have: intrauterine you have none.

Alan16
23-Aug-09, 13:08
In other words, they percieve pain (because they do have physiological pain reactions), but do not comprehend it. Does an animal that does not comprehend the pain it is feeling, actually feel pain?

No. That is the simple answer. Say someone disconnected your thalamus from your nerve endings, then hit you over the head with a bat of some description, you would not feel any pain. Your might go unconscious or have a huge lump on your head, but none of this will cause you any pain.


But don't make it pretty. It is a procedure carried out to kill a life.

We basically agree on the subject matter in general. But I take exception to the use of the word "kill" on such a thread. All abortions take place before 24 weeks (in Britain & I think the USA) and almost all will take place before 20 weeks. At this stage the foetus is not a "life". At pre-20 weeks, the foetus could not live out-with the mother - so is it really alive? Also, I'm not trying to make it pretty, it will be a horrendous experience for the mother, but the foetus will not feel anything, and that is the only point I was trying to make.

Alan16
23-Aug-09, 13:15
If that is your view and you are keeping your emotions out of the debate then I would suggest that you are the least qualified to speak upon it. (don't think I'm stifling the debate btw, I just don't think you can discuss the life and death of a baby unless you consult your emotions.)

I am not that stupid. I know that as much as I try and look at this objectively, it is almost impossible. On such a subject, everyone will have their emotions at the fore of what they say, I'm just trying to hide them as much as possible. None the less, emotions have no place in the debate. It may be inevitable that they will be included, but the debate would be better without them. It stops any objective look at the empirical data.

_Ju_
23-Aug-09, 13:37
No. That is the simple answer. Say someone disconnected your thalamus from your nerve endings, then hit you over the head with a bat of some description, you would not feel any pain. Your might go unconscious or have a huge lump on your head, but none of this will cause you any pain.



We basically agree on the subject matter in general. But I take exception to the use of the word "kill" on such a thread. All abortions take place before 24 weeks (in Britain & I think the USA) and almost all will take place before 20 weeks. At this stage the foetus is not a "life". At pre-20 weeks, the foetus could not live out-with the mother - so is it really alive? Also, I'm not trying to make it pretty, it will be a horrendous experience for the mother, but the foetus will not feel anything, and that is the only point I was trying to make.
You think it is pre 20 weeks, but in reality it is carried out until 28 weeks in the USA and 24 weeks in the UK. Both dates can birth viable babies. In fact the earliest surviving premature infant was born at 21 weeks and 6 days of gestation (and that limit is constantly changing as medicine advances). So is it killing? Yes it is. Because if that baby had been "lucky" enough to have been born, any attempt to terminate its life would be murder. Because it has not yet been born, it's called abortion and is legal. IE: Your right to life depends on your place of residence.
I continue to disagree with your statement on pain.Because it is not comprehended or felt or what ever term you want to apply, that does not mean that a painful stimuli does not elicit the flight/fight response and all the associated measurable parameters. The body of the foetus reacts to painful stimuli and tries to avoid it from 8 weeks onward.

octane
23-Aug-09, 13:48
Whether right or wrong its got nowt to do with anyone apart from the parties involved in that situation. Reckon the thread starter is just trolling with such a controversial subject in which whatever anyone says here, is not going to change any actions of people whom find themselves in this situation.

_Ju_
23-Aug-09, 14:03
Whether right or wrong its got nowt to do with anyone apart from the parties involved in that situation. Reckon the thread starter is just trolling with such a controversial subject in which whatever anyone says here, is not going to change any actions of people whom find themselves in this situation.

If trolling is bringing up interesting topics for debate, then I am only interested in troll threads. Right and wrong is only in the mind of the person making the decision. We agree there. what I find hard to understand is why people need 24 weeks (that is almost 6 months!!!!!!) to make that decision. If you are responsible enough to decide to have an abortion, you have to assume responsibility in it's entirety and decide before that foetus is old enough to survive birth. The legal limit for voluntary abortion is totally wrong.

Alan16
23-Aug-09, 16:20
You think it is pre 20 weeks, but in reality it is carried out until 28 weeks in the USA and 24 weeks in the UK. Both dates can birth viable babies. In fact the earliest surviving premature infant was born at 21 weeks and 6 days of gestation (and that limit is constantly changing as medicine advances).

Yes, it is possible to get an abortion at 28 weeks in the USA (in some states - like a lot of American law it changes state by state) and at 24 weeks in the UK, but the majority will occur before this. If we are honest, foetuses do not, in general, survive pre-24 weeks. The foetus that survived at almost 22 weeks was very very lucky.


So is it killing? Yes it is. Because if that baby had been "lucky" enough to have been born, any attempt to terminate its life would be murder.

No. There is a reason that foetuses take 9 months. The majority do not survive being born after 7 months. It is not murder. I'm sorry, but I do not accept the use of the term "murder".


I continue to disagree with your statement on pain.Because it is not comprehended or felt or what ever term you want to apply, that does not mean that a painful stimuli does not elicit the flight/fight response and all the associated measurable parameters. The body of the foetus reacts to painful stimuli and tries to avoid it from 8 weeks onward.

I'm sorry, but the it is the science of the matter. Foetuses do not feel pain until 28 weeks. I'm sorry if you don't understand the science, but that is the way of it. Read some of the sources (and if possible some of the articles they talk about in the sources) and you'll see that the response to painful stimuli does not amount to feeling pain. It isn't an easy concept to wrap your head around, but it is the cold hard truth.

_Ju_
23-Aug-09, 18:24
. There is a reason that foetuses take 9 months. The majority do not survive being born after 7 months. It is not murder. I'm sorry, but I do not accept the use of the term "murder".

I presume you mean that the majority do not survive being born before 7 months. In which case I quote survival rates for premature infants in UK and USA:
A baby born at 23 weeks has only a 10 to 35 percent chance of surviving and greater than 50 percent chance of a long-term disability. At just 25 weeks, survival improves to between 50 and 80 percent, and the chances of a long-term disability drop to between 15 and 25 percent. At 27 to 29 weeks, survival rates are above 90 percent, and disability rates fall to less than 10 percent. Between 34 and 37 weeks, survival rates are excellent (greater than 98 percent), and chances of long-term disability are slim -- less than 5 percent.

25 weeks is approximately 6 months gestation (at 4.5 weeks per month), at which survival improves to 50/80% with long term disability 15/25%. That to me is more than a majority of viable and surviving babies. I also said, if you read what I wrote, that what distinguishes murder from abortion, in these circumstances, is the place the baby is living. If it is in the mothers womb, it is viable at 24 weeks, yet she can choose to terminate it. That is, in my opinion, very very wrong.


We will have to agree to disagree on the pain issue. You might consider it reflex, but when any animal, scient or not, has an avoidance behaviour, has stress hormones circulating, blood pressure rising from a painful stimuli, they are, in my opinion, in pain.

Rheghead
23-Aug-09, 18:36
What we know for certain is that foetuses respond to conversations and music around 20 weeks. So should we judge whether humanity starts at 20 weeks or 28 weeks when babies feel pain? I'd be happier with 20 weeks myself. I'd hate it for foetuses to experience their own murder on a concious level even if they can't feel anything.

Many mothers express having a two way relationship with their child well before the legal deadline to abort a child. I think abortion can easily be considered to be murder over 20 weeks if not less.

Alan16
23-Aug-09, 19:13
What we know for certain is that foetuses respond to conversations and music around 20 weeks. So should we judge whether humanity starts at 20 weeks or 28 weeks when babies feel pain?

I never once said that humanity doesn't start until 28 weeks. I am merely stating the fact that abortion is not a painful experience for the foetus.

As Ju said, we all going to have to agree to disagree. I firmly believe that a foetus does not feel pain until 28 weeks. I firmly believe that aborting a 24 week foetus is not murder, no matter the survival rates. As I said before, everyone has there opinions, and very few of us are likely to change these opinions on what one another say.

Rheghead
23-Aug-09, 19:27
I firmly believe that a foetus does not feel pain until 28 weeks.

Is murder justified so long as your victim doesn't feel a thing?:confused

Alan16
23-Aug-09, 19:30
Is murder justified so long as your victim doesn't feel a thing?:confused

Please, stop this. You're deliberately misrepresenting what I say. I never said that. The wonder of the English language is that it doesn't needed to be read entirely literally, stuff can be implied without being said.

Rheghead
23-Aug-09, 19:33
Please, stop this. You're deliberately misrepresenting what I say. I never said that. The wonder of the English language is that it doesn't needed to be read entirely literally, stuff can be implied without being said.

I'm sorry but you're the one who thinks that the subject of foetuses unable to feel pain (in the abortion debate) is the issue that really matters, no misrepresentation sorry.

Alan16
23-Aug-09, 21:09
I'm sorry but you're the one who thinks that the subject of foetuses unable to feel pain (in the abortion debate) is the issue that really matters, no misrepresentation sorry.

In a previous post, I mentioned that a foetus does not have feelings, and some responded about outside stimuli, and so on and so forth until the idea of when it feels pain came up. This turned into another side debate. I have previously explained my reasons for being pro-choice, and it has nothing to do with the fact that foetuses don't feel pain until 28 weeks.

Rheghead
23-Aug-09, 22:35
In a previous post, I mentioned that a foetus does not have feelings, and some responded about outside stimuli, and so on and so forth until the idea of when it feels pain came up. This turned into another side debate. I have previously explained my reasons for being pro-choice, and it has nothing to do with the fact that foetuses don't feel pain until 28 weeks.

I am also pro-choice as mentioned in another post.

Women have the choice if they get pregnant or not, even after being raped.

I don't subscribe to pathetic excuses like 'falling pregnant' or 'accidents' like condoms breaking etc. What I do think is going on is recklessness or sloppy birth control or complete indifference to the consequences of having sex, mostly alcohol induced.

Plus I believe most women regret having abortions either immediately afterwards or a long time later. For them it wasn't the actually act of the abortion that troubles them but the loss of a 'potential' human being that is the saddest thing.

In essence, the human foetus is a human being, not some kind of precursor that shouldn't be entitled to the same rights as any other human being.

Vistravi
23-Aug-09, 22:50
Women have the choice if they get pregnant or not, even after being raped.


How can a woman after being raped have a choice about falling pregnant or not? Regardless of whether some people due to the way the woman dressed that night say she asked for it, no woman ever asked to be violated and assualted in that way.
They can't tell their attacker to use protection! [disgust]

That statement is horribly unfair and horrific to say rheghead. [evil]

I'm very much for life as i adore children and see all children as treasures and such a joy to be around. But i do believe in a case of rape that the woman should never be made to feel bad for having an abortion. She does not ask to be raped and is perfectly entitled to have an abortion.

Abortion is something that as a person i could never do as i work so closely with small children and if i ever had an abortion it would properly tear me up.

The Angel Of Death
23-Aug-09, 23:03
Am I right in thinking that if a female was raped one of the things she would be offered would be the emergency contraceptive pill thus stopping any rape victim from getting pregnant in the first place ?

Obviously this would only be the case if it was reported etc

Vistravi
23-Aug-09, 23:12
Am I right in thinking that if a female was raped one of the things she would be offered would be the emergency contraceptive pill thus stopping any rape victim from getting pregnant in the first place ?

Obviously this would only be the case if it was reported etc

Would think they offer the woman the morning after pill if it was still in the time period allowed for it to work.

Rheghead
24-Aug-09, 00:32
Am I right in thinking that if a female was raped one of the things she would be offered would be the emergency contraceptive pill thus stopping any rape victim from getting pregnant in the first place ?

Obviously this would only be the case if it was reported etc

Exactly, gold star for you for thinking before making a thoughtless tirade.:)

sweetpea
24-Aug-09, 00:40
Am I right in thinking that if a female was raped one of the things she would be offered would be the emergency contraceptive pill thus stopping any rape victim from getting pregnant in the first place ?

Obviously this would only be the case if it was reported etc

Reported or not any woman can go the the chemist and ask for the morning after pill.

_Ju_
24-Aug-09, 06:15
How the pregnancy came about doesn't matter at all. And Rheghead, if a woman latter regrets an abortion, that is part of the consequences that have to be assumed in their entirety, even though the responsibility for conception is not, as you so "quaintly" put it, exclusively that of the woman.

Abortion cannot again be driven into an illegal twilight. That would only cause more suffering to both the women and the baby. Some people will use abortion as birth control. That is their personal moral standing their own choice. No one can or should impose what is a completely subjective moral choice on another. Smoking kills. I choose not to smoke and now my right not to smoke is also protected in law. That protection afforded to me does not stop another from choosing to smoke, nor does it make sense for me to morally judge smokers. What I take issue with is allowing the upper limit for requested abortion to be so high, to the point that the foetus is viable if born.

emc246
24-Aug-09, 17:18
There is no way that the following will not sound harsh so I'm sorry for that because I don't want it to be that way.

For a start, you are using multiple measuring sticks. You'd be happy to allow a woman who can support a child in a healthy environment to abort a child because she'd been raped, however you'd not allow a poor homeless women to abort because of your morals? Your saying to the homeless woman who had unprotected sex, that she has to live with the consequences, but the other woman doesn't because she was raped. You either believe it is morally wrong or you don't - no ifs or buts.

I, am pro choice. Always will be. There is no way I would allow you, or anyone else, to decide that for me. As I said, no offence intended.

Okay I never said any of that in my post. How dare you. Your a nasty piece of work. I wrote about my miscarriages I DID NOT ONCE say anything about homeless women or any of what you wrote in your post. You have quoted my post but yet replied to it with totally different comments than mine.

emc246
24-Aug-09, 17:23
Alan16, you, as a man, can not even pass comment on this as your opinions are so typically male chauvinist. Women are the ones who carry children, feel the life growing inside them and who feel the pain if they loose them, etc, etc. If women want to post comments on here about their stillbirths or miscarriages, then they can, after all it's "pro-choice" remember?

Alan16
24-Aug-09, 18:50
Okay I never said any of that in my post. How dare you. Your a nasty piece of work. I wrote about my miscarriages I DID NOT ONCE say anything about homeless women or any of what you wrote in your post. You have quoted my post but yet replied to it with totally different comments than mine.

Let me quote you directly: In that respect I am against abortion because of what I have been through. But of course, in circumstances where a child has fallen pregnant through rape or abuse, for example, then that's totally different.

My comment was a direct response to your statement. You use completely different measuring sticks depending on the circumstances of the conception, and that was the basis of my response. You did not mention homeless women, that was merely an example I used to illustrate the problems with your comment. You obviously have very strong feelings about this issue, but I did not misrepresent your views. Think of me what you will, but I did not set out to insult you - I'm sorry if that is the impression you got.


Alan16, you, as a man, can not even pass comment on this as your opinions are so typically male chauvinist. Women are the ones who carry children, feel the life growing inside them and who feel the pain if they loose them, etc, etc. If women want to post comments on here about their stillbirths or miscarriages, then they can, after all it's "pro-choice" remember?

Don't be so ridiculous. This topic is not limited to women simply because they carry the foetus. And you can post about stillbirths and miscarriages if you wish, but it has very little relevance in the abortion debate, and probably only serves to cloud your judgement.

The Angel Of Death
24-Aug-09, 21:45
Don't be so ridiculous. This topic is not limited to women simply because they carry the foetus.

This is something that I agree with but its such a difficult one if a partner girlfriend wife etc falls pregnant regardless of what a bloke wants in the situation he has nothing to do with or say regarding any abortion

Now I know that the women will say its not a bloke who has to carry the pregnancy to term etc and i understand that but it just feels so wrong to me that if a bloke wants to take on the child after birth then he cant do a thing about it if the woman chooses to abort

crayola
25-Aug-09, 00:18
I, am pro choice. Always will be.

That's a very strong statement Alan.

Imagine the following sequence of events and think about it carefully before you post your response......

Fast forward twenty-five years. You and your wife have been trying to start a family for fifteen years without success. After years of trying your beloved wife finds out she's pregnant only to miscarry after three months. After two more miscarriages and a still birth you are both despairing of ever having kids of your own.

Then you come on an internet forum and a precocious 17 year old tells you you're being irrational when you say you're anti abortion. Maybe you're right but a little empathy on your part wouldn't go amiss.

Alan16
25-Aug-09, 00:27
Maybe you're right but a little empathy on your part wouldn't go amiss.

I believe I have been empathetic, although it didn't go down to well. I can understand why emc42 is annoyed, but I still don't agree with her.

crayola
25-Aug-09, 00:37
That was way too fast for you to have thought about it carefully.

Now this time do as Auntie Crayola tells you and don't be such a méchant. ;)

Moira
25-Aug-09, 00:47
Fascinating dialogue. Gobby teenage newcomer Alan16 and resident Auntie Crayola.

Are you two done for tonight - I need to get some sleep. :D

Alan16
25-Aug-09, 01:03
I'm confused... I don't remember every being "gobby" or not being empathetic. From my position I would say that the dialogue has been on the whole, quite civil. Emc24 seemed to get annoyed at my comments, and I'm not entirely sure why...

And, stop it with the French... Please!

Aaldtimer
25-Aug-09, 03:36
..."And, stop it with the French... Please! "...see, Gobby again! :confused

Rheghead
25-Aug-09, 03:39
he did say please :lol:

Alan16
25-Aug-09, 12:38
he did say please :lol:

Precisely.

weefee
25-Aug-09, 13:14
WoW!!!

Pretty much females are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't

This has been one of the most horrific threads i've seen on the org.

Why was it started???