View Full Version : NHS money worries.
So we all know that the NHS has suffered because of lack of funds for the likes of better training for nurses, getting and employing more cleaning staff to ensure that the hospitals are safe and clean for patients. because of this lack of funding people are suffering because there are not enough beds for patients, so how is that they can pay out £4om a year for hospital chaplains. Services are required but at the expense of peoples health. Why does the church not pay for their chaplains and organ players to do the duties of the church in an NHS hospital.
Here is the full story.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7988476.stm
Alice in Blunderland
08-Apr-09, 14:35
That £40 million is across all the hospitals and from what I can see the chaplains have not taken anything away from direct patient care.
The GMC dont pay the doctors wages so so why should the church pay the hospital chaplains wages.
The chaplins are employed by the hospital to provide a service to the patients so the hospital should pay their wages........... no ?
Why pick on the chaplain there are many other areas which could be addressed for waste of money first........................ :)
Do you think for one momment that if the chaplains were all fired this money would be directed towards more cleaners and nurses..........erm think not.
Bad Manners
08-Apr-09, 16:45
Well I have a lot to be thankful for, everytime I have been in hospital I have been looked after very well the staff and nurses have been brill.
As for the faith side I believe that each religion should have its own chaplin or holy person that can attend to the religeous needs. For me i feel any money saved and reinvested in better care and facilities would be the right thing.
Others may disagree this is only my opinion
orkneylass
08-Apr-09, 17:22
So we all know that the NHS has suffered because of lack of funds for the likes of better training for nurses, getting and employing more cleaning staff to ensure that the hospitals are safe and clean for patients. because of this lack of funding people are suffering because there are not enough beds for patients, so how is that they can pay out £4om a year for hospital chaplains. Services are required but at the expense of peoples health. Why does the church not pay for their chaplains and organ players to do the duties of the church in an NHS hospital.
Here is the full story.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7988476.stm
Justine, you are so wrong. The NHS gets more public funding than most European health services that offer far better health care - it is inefficient, poorly managed and run, and staff can't even wash their hands properly - did you know that around 3 times as many people die each year from hospital acquired infections as die in road accidents - and all because of failures of basic hygeine.
And still people believe this myth that we have the best health service in the world - get the facts about the per capita spending on the NHS and where it ranks in performance against other countries. Otherwise, the "Sacred cow NHS" is an even bigger mystery of faith than anything a chaplain could conjure up for us to blindly believe in.
The other thing you obviously have no grasp of is the fact that spiritual health and pastoral care have a direct effect on patient health. Hospital chaplians care for people of all faiths, so which church do you think should pay for them??
there is no right or wrong in this orkneylass, its about peoples opinions and interests. not whos right and wrong.
orkneylass
08-Apr-09, 17:46
there is no right or wrong in this orkneylass, its about peoples opinions and interests. not whos right and wrong.
Incorrect Justine - there is fact and there is emotion and belief. The two are often poles apart, and when it comes to the latter, I do not wish to be included in factually wrong sweeping statements that start with "everybody knows...."
Alice in Blunderland
08-Apr-09, 17:53
Justine, you are so wrong. The NHS gets more public funding than most European health services that offer far better health care - it is inefficient, poorly managed and run, and staff can't even wash their hands properly - did you know that around 3 times as many people die each year from hospital acquired infections as die in road accidents - and all because of failures of basic hygeine.
And still people believe this myth that we have the best health service in the world - get the facts about the per capita spending on the NHS and where it ranks in performance against other countries. Otherwise, the "Sacred cow NHS" is an even bigger mystery of faith than anything a chaplain could conjure up for us to blindly believe in.
The other thing you obviously have no grasp of is the fact that spiritual health and pastoral care have a direct effect on patient health. Hospital chaplians care for people of all faiths, so which church do you think should pay for them??
There are many factors contributing as to why there is a rise in Hospital acquired infections not just handwashing. There is continued auditing on handwashing in all hospitals and I would have to say I see a massive improvement in hand hygeine. :)
Money is invested into the NHS hand over fist for patient care and the chaplains also have a role in patient care. Spiritual needs as well as physical needs.
Any suggestions on how to save money in the NHS apart from make the church pay for the chaplains. Its not all black and white. :(
A good Chaplain in any hospital would be worth their weight in Penicillan.
Maybe if they were to spend more money on good Chaplains peoples ailments would be helped more in a psychological way. I believe that anyway.
There are many factors contributing as to why there is a rise in Hospital acquired infections not just handwashing. There is continued auditing on handwashing in all hospitals and I would have to say I see a massive improvement in hand hygeine. :)
Money is invested into the NHS hand over fist for patient care and the chaplains also have a role in patient care. Spiritual needs as well as physical needs.
Any suggestions on how to save money in the NHS apart from make the church pay for the chaplains. Its not all black and white. :(
Everything has to be cost effective so how come there is such a lot of siccies taken by hospital staff????? Are they all suffering from overwork or are they all poor sickly creatures comparative to other industry???? Do doctors have to give a sick line nowadays when one presents themselves stating they are ill? or what???Maybe they see so much illness it manifests itself ,could that be logical?????Gone are the days of matron,perhaps that has a lot to do with it. Too many managers, and goodness knows what else or is it the case that the person in charge does not notice the absentism rate????? So many questions, local firms could not handle it or they would all be bankrupt.
Everything has to be cost effective so how come there is such a lot of siccies taken by hospital staff????? Are they all suffering from overwork or are they all poor sickly creatures comparative to other industry???? Do doctors have to give a sick line nowadays when one presents themselves stating they are ill? or what???Maybe they see so much illness it manifests itself ,could that be logical?????Gone are the days of matron,perhaps that has a lot to do with it. Too many managers, and goodness knows what else or is it the case that the person in charge does not notice the absentism rate????? So many questions, local firms could not handle it or they would all be bankrupt.
I thought this thread was about whether the NHS should pay for chaplains in hospitals.:roll: Seems to me catran you're suffering from overwork...... of the question mark symbol on your keyboard.:lol:
Alice in Blunderland
08-Apr-09, 18:35
Everything has to be cost effective so how come there is such a lot of siccies taken by hospital staff????? Are they all suffering from overwork or are they all poor sickly creatures comparative to other industry???? Do doctors have to give a sick line nowadays when one presents themselves stating they are ill? or what???Maybe they see so much illness it manifests itself ,could that be logical?????Gone are the days of matron,perhaps that has a lot to do with it. Too many managers, and goodness knows what else or is it the case that the person in charge does not notice the absentism rate????? So many questions, local firms could not handle it or they would all be bankrupt.
Eh ........... erm not following the drivvel here. :confused :confused
Sorry but you have lost me and your point is ??
Eh ........... erm not following the drivvel here. :confused :confused
Sorry but you have lost me and your point is ??
Apolgies for the drivvel but wasnt it on about money???????? and about the cost of the chaplain???? Maybe I did n ot get the gist of it but I will re-iterate my thoughts on the NHS, too much money being wasted through absentism.
I think that paying £40 Million Pounds a Year for Chaplains would be OK if....and I do mean if....the NHS also paid for other religeons. After all we are a Multi-Cultural Society. We have many other Faiths and Religeons that deserve equal Representation.
So perhaps this £40 Million Pounds should be split into a wider spectrum of Religeons as it seems unfair to spend this amount of money just on one Faith.
That or get all the Religeons to pay for their own Religeous Representatives within the Hospitals.
Alice in Blunderland
08-Apr-09, 19:19
I am led to believe that other religions also have their representatives in many hospitals.:)
the poacher
08-Apr-09, 19:19
I think that paying £40 Million Pounds a Year for Chaplains would be OK if....and I do mean if....the NHS also paid for other religeons. After all we are a Multi-Cultural Society. We have many other Faiths and Religeons that deserve equal Representation.
So perhaps this £40 Million Pounds should be split into a wider spectrum of Religeons as it seems unfair to spend this amount of money just on one Faith.
That or get all the Religeons to pay for their own Religeous Representatives within the Hospitals.
i agree with kodiak
no saying its right to spend that amount of money on chaplains but if they are going to why not share it with all religeons
good one kodiak
Alice in Blunderland
08-Apr-09, 19:33
As I said before hospitals in larger areas cater for other religions.
The hospital will endevour to cater for the religion reflected in the community.:)
Many south hospitals provide prayer rooms for christians, muslims, jews as well as their respective representatives. :)
More money again but its a service which they provide for patients.
Smokers are offered patches when they go into hospital instead of cigarettes are they not, religous people can be offered a serevice also.
Also some hospitals south cater for religous dietry needs eg halaal food. Multi cultural indeed. ;)
the poacher
08-Apr-09, 20:02
As I said before hospitals in larger areas cater for other religions.
The hospital will endevour to cater for the religion reflected in the community.:)
Many south hospitals provide prayer rooms for christians, muslims, jews as well as their respective representatives. :)
More money again but its a service which they provide for patients.
Smokers are offered patches when they go into hospital instead of cigarettes are they not, religous people can be offered a serevice also.
Also some hospitals south cater for religous dietry needs eg halaal food. Multi cultural indeed. ;)
what about the north does it get forgot about
Alice in Blunderland
08-Apr-09, 20:04
No they are not forgotten about.
What religion are you wondering about?
I quite agree Alice in Blunderland
even down to the dietry whatever and one should have chaplains of ones own faith. BUT the question is where is all the money going?? Not to the chaplains I would guess neither the doctors. I know nurses are well trained nowadays and have to have a degree ect but......
being of the old school the bedpan days are over but why is the absenteeism rate so high due to sickness? Just a simple question ,but why is it obviously costing the NHS loads of dosh. this sickness thing???? Or is the press that is to blame once more for misleading dodos like me.
the poacher
08-Apr-09, 20:30
No they are not forgotten about.
What religion are you wondering about?
me im no religous so i dont need to know
but i bet there are people in caithness who are and would like to know about all the religeons
thanks for asking me anyway
As I said before hospitals in larger areas cater for other religions.
Perhaps they do but the only Religion mentioned in the Article quoted is Christian, also what do you call larger. Over 100,00 Population, over 250,000 Population, over 500,000 Population or what. Whatever it is I doubt that many Hospitals in Scotland would come under this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7988476.stm
Many south hospitals provide prayer rooms for christians, muslims, jews as well as their respective representatives.
This is not the point, Prayer Rooms, it is the fact that the NHS is Paying Wages to Chaplins. The NSS said it contacted 233 acute and mental health trusts which spent a total of £26.72m on chaplains. The society extrapolated these figures for the whole of the UK to produce a national average of £32m
As far as I know the Only Religion that has a Chaplin is Christian so no money to other Religions.
Smokers are offered patches when they go into hospital instead of cigarettes are they not, religous people can be offered a serevice also.
Being offered Nicotine Patches is Medical Service and should be offered and paid for by the NHS. To be offered chaplaincy services is Not Medical but Religious and the NHS should not pay for this service. That is unless they offer exatcly the same for ALL Religions, which they do not.
Also some hospitals south cater for religous dietry needs eg halaal food. Multi cultural indeed
This is also Medical, as a Patient should be given the food that they are happy with as this will help recovery and as such should be paid for by the NHS.
Since we are now a Multi-ultural Society all Religions should have the same service provided by the NHS or None provided.
Since the NHS can not, for one reason or another, provide the same service for all Religions then the funding for Chaplins, Ministers, Rabi's, Shamen etc etc should perhaps be provided by the Individual Religion/Church concerned.
Justine, you are so wrong. The NHS gets more public funding than most European health services that offer far better health care - it is inefficient, poorly managed and run, and staff can't even wash their hands properly - did you know that around 3 times as many people die each year from hospital acquired infections as die in road accidents - and all because of failures of basic hygeine.
And still people believe this myth that we have the best health service in the world - get the facts about the per capita spending on the NHS and where it ranks in performance against other countries. Otherwise, the "Sacred cow NHS" is an even bigger mystery of faith than anything a chaplain could conjure up for us to blindly believe in.
The other thing you obviously have no grasp of is the fact that spiritual health and pastoral care have a direct effect on patient health. Hospital chaplians care for people of all faiths, so which church do you think should pay for them??
Well I have been chastised for talking drivell so I AM UPSET... nEVER MIND THE CHAPLAINS, WE ALL NEED THEM BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE SICCIE STAFF??????? tHAT IS A DRAIN ON ANYONES RESOURCES. mAYBE i SHOULD NOT READ THE PAPERS.... nhs WORST FOR SICCIES...
Well I have been chastised for talking drivell so I AM UPSET... nEVER MIND THE CHAPLAINS, WE ALL NEED THEM BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE SICCIE STAFF??????? tHAT IS A DRAIN ON ANYONES RESOURCES. mAYBE i SHOULD NOT READ THE PAPERS.... nhs WORST FOR SICCIES...
In Case you have not noticed Catran this thread is about Chaplins in Hospitals and not About you little pet Project.
If you wish to talk about that then I suggest you open a new thread and STOP posting Off Topic.
Perhaps if the NHS was to pay the chaplains for councilling the staff there would be less sickies. I would argue that Chaplains offer a medical service whether it's to patients in hospitals or lost souls in churches.
perhaps if the nhs was to pay the chaplains for councilling the staff there would be less sickies. I would argue that chaplains offer a medical service whether it's to patients in hospitals or lost souls in churches.
well said i quite agree
Alice in Blunderland
08-Apr-09, 23:05
Perhaps they do but the only Religion mentioned in the Article quoted is Christian, also what do you call larger. Over 100,00 Population, over 250,000 Population, over 500,000 Population or what. Whatever it is I doubt that many Hospitals in Scotland would come under this.
Larger as in bigger than Caithness General but I didnt consider how much larger to be honest.
This is not the point, Prayer Rooms, it is the fact that the NHS is Paying Wages to Chaplins. The NSS said it contacted 233 acute and mental health trusts which spent a total of £26.72m on chaplains. The society extrapolated these figures for the whole of the UK to produce a national average of £32m
As far as I know the Only Religion that has a Chaplin is Christian so no money to other Religions.
As far as I was told, and have seen other trusts do provide alternative religous guidance for inpatients. Its possibly a case of supply and demand. No point in employing an imam if no-one is needing / requesting one.
Being offered Nicotine Patches is Medical Service and should be offered and paid for by the NHS. To be offered chaplaincy services is Not Medical but Religious and the NHS should not pay for this service. That is unless they offer exatcly the same for ALL Religions, which they do not.
Fair point. On a cost cutting issue if someone going into hospital can manage to buy cigarettes then why cant they but a nicotine patch ? :)
This is also Medical, as a Patient should be given the food that they are happy with as this will help recovery and as such should be paid for by the NHS.
Erm you tasted hospital food :eek: only joking. So recieving blessed food helps recovery because the patient is happy with it ?
Since we are now a Multi-ultural Society all Religions should have the same service provided by the NHS or None provided.
Since the NHS can not, for one reason or another, provide the same service for all Religions then the funding for Chaplins, Ministers, Rabi's, Shamen etc etc should perhaps be provided by the Individual Religion/Church concerned.
I agree all religions should patients wish should be represented in the hospital. I believe in many hospitals this is the case a majority of religions are catered for.
How many people know of someone who has had a relative dying in the hospital or a baby born dead or about to die and have requested and recieved a visit from a religious person ?
There is a place in the hospital for these people whether it be chaplains priests Rabbi etc etc. Anything that helps to comfort and accelerate the healing of body and soul is to be praised. :)
There is a place in the hospital for these people whether it be chaplains priests Rabbi etc etc. Anything that helps to comfort and accelerate the healing of body and soul is to be praised. :)
Yes there is a place for a Chaplin, Rabi, Priest, Shaman or whatever in a Hospital. If you read what I posted you will not see that disagree with this.
What I was saying is this
That the NHS should not be paying £40 Million for Chaplins in Hospitals unless it is prepared to spend money for other religions. Is is clear that the NHS only spends money with repect to the Christian Religion. This should not happen in Today's society, therefore the NHS sould stop paying out £40 Million for Chaplins and the respective Church's should pick up this wage bill.
This is a huge amount of money and could train many Nurses and Doctors, buy Equipment, pay for Operations, help the elderly and all in a positive way. I also believe that most people would prefer this as well, but in reality it will not happen which is a shame.
Aaldtimer
09-Apr-09, 03:03
Perhaps if the NHS was to pay the chaplains for councilling the staff there would be less sickies. I would argue that Chaplains offer a medical service whether it's to patients in hospitals or lost souls in churches.
Sorry Gleeber, I've got to disagree with you. Chaplains are not qualified to offer any medical services. Spiritual advice certainly, or Mumbo Jumbo depending on your point of view!:confused
Kodiak, what is your problem with the spelling of the word Chaplain?
You're looking like a proper Charlie!:lol:
Alice in Blunderland
09-Apr-09, 06:54
Yes there is a place for a Chaplin, Rabi, Priest, Shaman or whatever in a Hospital. If you read what I posted you will not see that disagree with this.
What I was saying is this
That the NHS should not be paying £40 Million for Chaplins in Hospitals unless it is prepared to spend money for other religions. Is is clear that the NHS only spends money with repect to the Christian Religion. This should not happen in Today's society, therefore the NHS sould stop paying out £40 Million for Chaplins and the respective Church's should pick up this wage bill.
This is a huge amount of money and could train many Nurses and Doctors, buy Equipment, pay for Operations, help the elderly and all in a positive way. I also believe that most people would prefer this as well, but in reality it will not happen which is a shame.
Honestly I agree with what you are saying. I am also trying to say that many hospitals/trusts do provide different religous support for its patients whilst they are there. :)
Where there is a need there will be a procedure for provision.
Yes £40 million may seem to some a lot of money for this service but in the bigger picture of budgets within the NHS I am sure that its just a drop in the ocean.
Chaplains or any other religous cleric have a place within a hospital where people are dealing with life and death on a daily basis.
If this money was diverted away from this provision would it be put to what you are suggesting ?
I think not. :(
There are many areas within any organisation needing more funding and also many areas where money spent could be seen to be a waste of money. :)
I was pondering this matter and counted up the hospitals in my area, there are six within a radius of five miles and that does not include mental health,long stay or senior care facilities, the density in an area like London, Birmingham and I would think Glasgow would be even higher so it's becomes quite apparent that several chaplains would be needed just to cover those institutions.
I appreciate that the sum referred to seems large but when divided by the number on institutions they have to cover then it comes into perspective.
I would also make the point that religeous observances usually take place on a fixed day of the week meaning that there would need to be a presence at each major facility there is also the need for an on call service so that where required some one can be present within a short while.
Ministers,vicars,rabbis,immans and the like do include hospital visits within their pastoral duties but they would be unable to cover on a full time basis which leaves the NHS little choice but to retain them on a permanent basis.
orkneylass
09-Apr-09, 11:36
Is everyone reading these posts properly??? It has been stated several times that the role of a hospital chaplain is to provide spiritual support and support the religious needs of people in hospital of ALL faiths - something that makes it a very interesting job as well as a worthwhile one. If you want to know about the variety of faiths represented in Caithness I suggest that you look at national census information online.
Kodiak, what is your problem with the spelling of the word Chaplain?
You're looking like a proper Charlie!:lol:
OOO why are you so Rude??? I have never called you a nasty name so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from calling me names.
HOw many of the churches in these areas a protestant, because this is just for the catholic religion.
Alice in Blunderland
09-Apr-09, 13:39
HOw many of the churches in these areas a protestant, because this is just for the catholic religion.
Sorry I dont quite get this post ?
Margaret M.
09-Apr-09, 13:56
OOO why are you so Rude??? I have never called you a nasty name so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from calling me names.
Aaldtimer was being humourous, not rude -- calling you a proper Charlie since you spell chaplain as chaplin, like Charlie Chaplin. I thought it was cute.
Aaldtimer was being humourous, not rude -- calling you a proper Charlie since you spell chaplain as chaplin, like Charlie Chaplin. I thought it was cute.
Not cute at all and I took it as rude.
Aaldtimer
09-Apr-09, 16:34
Not cute at all and I took it as rude.
Oh my! A bear with a sore head? Sorry my feeble attempt at humour kinda by-passed you. My humble apologies.:~(
(What's rude about the name Charlie?):eek:
In Case you have not noticed Catran this thread is about Chaplins in Hospitals and not About you little pet Project.
If you wish to talk about that then I suggest you open a new thread and STOP posting Off Topic.
The original post did say about the NHS funding being better than most countries and yet we lag behind, all I was asking was why such a mess and grudging the chaplain his/her fees?
Och well I had better be quiet and STOP posting off Topic but we do need the chaplains in hospitals, a necessary post for sure. The title of the post was NHS money worries.
Sorry Gleeber, I've got to disagree with you. Chaplains are not qualified to offer any medical services. Spiritual advice certainly, or Mumbo Jumbo depending on your point of view!:confused
It's ok to disagree.
I would say that spiritual needs being fullfilled would go a long way to helping someone in a stressful hospital situation. Spiritual needs are mental needs and the NHS caters for mental needs.
Apparently most big hospitals have rooms for other faiths but I would expect Christianity to be the predominant religion in British hospitals.
Talkings been recognised as a cure to many ailments for a long time now. There's probably not enough of it in the NHS but a good chaplain will use his skills as a healing agent in many situations.
It's ok to disagree.
I would say that spiritual needs being fullfilled would go a long way to helping someone in a stressful hospital situation. Spiritual needs are mental needs and the NHS caters for mental needs.
Apparently most big hospitals have rooms for other faiths but I would expect Christianity to be the predominant religion in British hospitals.
Talkings been recognised as a cure to many ailments for a long time now. There's probably not enough of it in the NHS but a good chaplain will use his skills as a healing agent in many situations.
Totally agree Glee
ber, well said.
I do love the argument that if every religion is not catered for then none should be.
I am a follower of the Sun God the Pharoah Akhenaten so unless somebody can find me a suitable priest then all other religions should be banned.
Furthermore, unless I can have my body mummified in the correct manner then all undertakers should be banned from hospitals.
Contrary to what some would have us accept, Britain is still, by a vast proportion, a Christian Country. As for the 40 million towards the cost of Hospital Chaplains for the whole of Great Britain creating a problem with the financing of front line medical staff that concept is laughable and nothing more than a red herring.
The budget for the NHS annually is £90 billion, that is billion, not million and has almost trebled in the last 12 years.
If the worry is about the, by comparison, trivial amount spent on Chaplains then there are a lot more placed where cuts could be made to cover that amount. The fact that Senior Administrators now vastly outnumber Medical Specialist who treat patients at the sharp end says a lot about where the money goes.
The Utopian concept that if every single person cannot be catered for, what ever the subject is, then nobody at all should be catered for is a totally ridiculous and utterly mischievous concept aimed at creating a situation where the vast majority are controlled and dominated, and on occasions bullied, by tiny vocal minorities.
Fraser Macleod
10-Apr-09, 00:14
Hi,
Currently within the NHS the holistic health model that's applied to palliative care, consists of four health fields, one of which is spiritual well being, (the others are physical, mental and societal well being,) and the services Chaplains provide are considered to address the needs of this particular health field.
However several other occupations are also considered to be essential to providing spiritual well being, among them are various psychotherapies, grief counselling and nursery care, so to the NHS administration the importance of chaplains is considered to be equal to the professions mentioned above, all of whom are also funded by the NHS. So from a managerial perspective it would be impossible to justify the removal of funding for religious services within the health profession without also withdrawing the funding for several other areas.
The obvious argument against that would be that some people don't see any benefit at all in the presence of religion within health care, whereas they see the other forms of spiritual support as being both clinically viable and accessible to all, however its been proven through control trials that patients who wish to see a priest of their chosen religion, and are allowed to do so, show improvements to the state of their health.
And as 'Alice in Blunderland' quite accurately pointed out £40m is a very slim portion in any pie chart of the NHS's annual budget.
As for the issue of the representation of religions besides Christianity within the NHS, it is entirely based upon the local community and demand, for example I live in Glasgow, and the two nearest general hospitals to me are the Western Infirmary and Nuffield House, at the WI there are extensive services specifically to deal with the needs of Muslims due to the large population of asylum seekers living in Partick, and at Nuffield there are next to none because most of the patients are white and British.
So if there is a lack of support for a specific religion in a particular area it's probably the result of the local health administration not being aware of the local congregation or it not being economically viable to hire someone to cater for the needs of that religion.
I'm not sure if this is off topic, but to the people who pointed out the apparent lack of religious diversity are there any religions you think should be represented at Caithness General Hospital that aren't already?
Cheers,
Fraser Macleod
Alice in Blunderland
10-Apr-09, 08:46
Well posted Fraser. I agree with what you say.
It comes down to supply and demand and also viability............not necessarily money. :)
Caithness General I believe have a very balanced Chaplain service and also have a supply of books from other faiths within the hopspital itself they are there to support no matter what faith you are following. :)
Shabbychic
10-Apr-09, 11:40
Caithness General I believe have a very balanced Chaplain service and also have a supply of books from other faiths within the hopspital itself they are there to support no matter what faith you are following.
I don't think either Caithness General or Raigmore do much for Buddhists (although I admit this is not technically a religion, and they are usually self sufficient in these matters anyway) with either support, books or diet.(and no, I don't expect them to have the Dalia Lama on their payrole) With diet especially, vegetarians, through religion or other reasons, are treated like freaks and the choice is take it or leave it. :(
Oh, they have the choice of a so-called vegetarian diet, but this always includes cheese, tuna or eggs, which not all vegetarians eat. So for someone who has not had dairy, meat or eggs in their system for a long time, this is what they are faced with.:(
There is a little booklet I found which states that if you need a special diet you should discuss this with the nursing staff, who will try and sort this out for you, but they can only supply what the kitchen offers, and on top of that, the nurses have enough on their plates with nursing duties without having to sort diets out too.
So if you are Christian in hospital, with a normal diet, you are well and truly covered, but if you have different views or diets, you're on your own.
Non-Christian Vegetarians, heal thyself.:D
Alice in Blunderland
10-Apr-09, 12:13
There is a little booklet I found which states that if you need a special diet you should discuss this with the nursing staff, who will try and sort this out for you, but they can only supply what the kitchen offers, and on top of that, the nurses have enough on their plates with nursing duties without having to sort diets out too.
So if you are Christian in hospital, with a normal diet, you are well and truly covered, but if you have different views or diets, you're on your own.
Non-Christian Vegetarians, heal thyself.:D
This should be raised. If you feel that what you are being offered is not good enough then raise it with the nursing staff. They are there to help with your stay in hospital and if this is brought to their attention then they can help make provision by alerting the kitchen.
If more people were to draw attention to what is seen as a shortfall then moves can be made to address it. :)
GetWithTheTimes
10-Apr-09, 13:04
hehehe time for a wee rant lol
The other thing you obviously have no grasp of is the fact that spiritual health and pastoral care have a direct effect on patient health. Hospital chaplians care for people of all faiths, so which church do you think should pay for them??
Firstly i will say where is your evidence that chaplains have healing effects on patients???
and do chaplains care for satanists??? not a sarcastic remark a serious one? as satanists dont like christianity would the nhs pay for a dark priest of the church of satan to come see them? i highly doubt it!
there is no right or wrong in this orkneylass, its about peoples opinions and interests. not whos right and wrong.
yes exactly its all just discussions and opinions there are too many people in this site who have got to be right and love to quote wiki which is a very unreliable source of fact, i cant understand why people dont accept the views and opinions of others, just because they dont believe the same thing doesnt make them a bad or wrong person i think people need to realise that
A good Chaplain in any hospital would be worth their weight in Penicillan.
Maybe if they were to spend more money on good Chaplains peoples ailments would be helped more in a psychological way. I believe that anyway.
i still dont see how people can believe faith of any sort or any religion is a healer i feel religion or the main ones i have learned about so far like christianity islam budhism and all sorts of other religions are for people who cant live life knowing they were born and they will die simple as that, if anything its the worry of them not going to heaven for their sins that make them ill and the chaplain being there makes them think they are forgiven and will be fine so they are happier less stressed and get better faster, so really the religion was causing the stress that was preventing them healing faster not the chaplain healing them
i am not trying to put down what you believe in i read up on stuff about a couple of religions and none of them came close to being anything like a real base for religion apart from the church of satan, anton la vey had a good basis for religion i think he just got carried away and lost himself eventually
me im no religous so i dont need to know
but i bet there are people in caithness who are and would like to know about all the religeons
thanks for asking me anyway
Church of Satan i think people should read up on the satanic bible its a good read and alot of good points i also have a few other books on anton la vey
which are interesting, especially his big cat passion
Fair point. On a cost cutting issue if someone going into hospital can manage to buy cigarettes then why cant they but a nicotine patch ? :)
well considering its £3 for a pouch of tobacco and like £15 for nicotine patches which dont even work well what would you do
i stopped smoking for 5 month now and every attempt before them was with patches and didnt work as you are still gettin nicotine which is what your addicted to through the patches so when you stop the patches your body craves the nicotine you now dont get and you need a fag again
willpower if you want to do something do it easy as that
however its been proven through control trials that patients who wish to see a priest of their chosen religion, and are allowed to do so, show improvements to the state of their health.
you say proven through controlled trials hahaha where is this proof, so your telling me they got a bunch of sick christians or whatever religion and denied half of them chaplain and the other half were allowed chaplain and the ones with chaplains healed better hahahahahaha
and if they did this how did they find large numbers of religious people with the exact same severity of the same illness to try it out on
and spiritual healing is not proven fact or science so how could they do controlled trials, maybe not all chaplains are still believers so they might not all be as efficient
religious healing is all nonsense in my opinion, if religion and gods healed people the country would be full of churches full of chaplains for the sick and injured not hospitals full of doctors and nurses and surgeons
Shabbychic
10-Apr-09, 14:00
i still dont see how people can believe faith of any sort or any religion is a healer i feel religion or the main ones i have learned about so far like christianity islam budhism and all sorts of other religions are for people who cant live life knowing they were born and they will die simple as that, if anything its the worry of them not going to heaven for their sins that make them ill and the chaplain being there makes them think they are forgiven and will be fine so they are happier less stressed and get better faster, so really the religion was causing the stress that was preventing them healing faster not the chaplain healing them
You really don't know much, or anything about Buddhism, do you? When it all boils down to it, unlike the others, Buddhism is all about dying. Buddhists don't fear death or not going to heaven. You enter this world alone, and you will leave this world alone.
Buddhism also has a firm base in meditation, and once that is mastered, it's amazing what can be achieved and healed. It also has nothing to do with faith. The Buddha states, "don't believe anything you are told, even by me. Check everything out for yourself and come to your own conclusions."
I also would never condemn anybody about their faith or beliefs. If a visit from a chaplain or anybody else helps someone feels better or heal faster, that is up to the individual and should not be sneered at.
Fraser Macleod
10-Apr-09, 14:12
"you say proven through controlled trials hahaha where is this proof, so your telling me they got a bunch of sick christians or whatever religion and denied half of them chaplain and the other half were allowed chaplain and the ones with chaplains healed better hahahahahaha" - GetWithTheTimes
Well I'm pleased that you found that entertaining.
There's been a great deal of research into neurobiology since the late 1950's and thanks to that in modern times it's possible to measure most neurotransmitter responses within the brain accurately.
It's a well-documented fact that stimulation of religious beliefs elicits a dopiminergic response within the ACC (Anterior Cingulate Cortex), due to the dynamic interaction of the components of the HPA-axis (hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis) this in turn causes a shift in serotonin uptake across neural synapses. The interaction of dopamine and serotonin are sometimes referred to as the 'neurogenic reward mechanism', and the result of the neurotransmitter cascade that results from this causes several mood changes such as increased relaxation and decreased response to pain stimuli.
My neurobiology is a little vague given that I've only spent a couple of months studying it so far and that was mostly in connection to mood disorders such as depression, so I'd direct your attention to the following journal paper:
http://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~inzlicht/research/publications/Inzlicht,%20McGregor,%20Hirsh,%20&%20Nash,%20in%20press.pdf (http://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/%7Einzlicht/research/publications/Inzlicht,%20McGregor,%20Hirsh,%20&%20Nash,%20in%20press.pdf)
Should you remain still unconvinced of the neuroscientific basis of what I said earlier please feel free to PM me and I'll happily send you links to further credible research papers on the topic.
"religious healing is all nonsense in my opinion, if religion and gods healed people the country would be full of churches full of chaplains for the sick and injured not hospitals full of doctors and nurses and surgeons" - GetWithTheTimes
it is also worth noting that the effects of any response are in no way curative and are therefore strictly a palliative form of care and as a medical student and an atheist I'd always opt for a syringe of morphine over a copy of the Bible or Qur'an.
Cheers,
Fraser Macleod
GetWithTheTimes
10-Apr-09, 15:00
You really don't know much, or anything about Buddhism, do you? When it all boils down to it, unlike the others, Buddhism is all about dying. Buddhists don't fear death or not going to heaven. You enter this world alone, and you will leave this world alone.
Buddhism also has a firm base in meditation, and once that is mastered, it's amazing what can be achieved and healed. It also has nothing to do with faith. The Buddha states, "don't believe anything you are told, even by me. Check everything out for yourself and come to your own conclusions."
I also would never condemn anybody about their faith or beliefs. If a visit from a chaplain or anybody else helps someone feels better or heal faster, that is up to the individual and should not be sneered at.
i dont believe meditation heals at all either does religion, we know that doctors heal so we go to them there is no fact or scientific proof that religion or meditation can heal illness if there was we would all be religious or be meditating
and to say i dont know anything is just your assumption, i was meaning religion in general i just mentioned a few names off the top of my head maybe they were not all relevant
my point is chaplains dont heal people heal themselves naturally over time or with the help of doctors
i was stating i find that religion is for those who dont feel they have enough or dont like to think they are just another species which will die off like any other, they wrap themselves up in this belief that some deity is going to save them or they will come back again as another person or animal where as i strongly believe that we are just another species on another planet same as there more than likely is on many other planets elsewhere and that if we are ill its our doctors nurses and our positive outlook that will heal us not religion or meditation
"you say proven through controlled trials hahaha where is this proof, so your telling me they got a bunch of sick christians or whatever religion and denied half of them chaplain and the other half were allowed chaplain and the ones with chaplains healed better hahahahahaha" - GetWithTheTimes
Well I'm pleased that you found that entertaining.
There's been a great deal of research into neurobiology since the late 1950's and thanks to that in modern times it's possible to measure most neurotransmitter responses within the brain accurately.
It's a well-documented fact that stimulation of religious beliefs elicits a dopiminergic response within the ACC (Anterior Cingulate Cortex), due to the dynamic interaction of the components of the HPA-axis (hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis) this in turn causes a shift in serotonin uptake across neural synapses. The interaction of dopamine and serotonin are sometimes referred to as the 'neurogenic reward mechanism', and the result of the neurotransmitter cascade that results from this causes several mood changes such as increased relaxation and decreased response to pain stimuli.
My neurobiology is a little vague given that I've only spent a couple of months studying it so far and that was mostly in connection to mood disorders such as depression, so I'd direct your attention to the following journal paper:
http://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~inzlicht/research/publications/Inzlicht,%20McGregor,%20Hirsh,%20&%20Nash,%20in%20press.pdf (http://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/%7Einzlicht/research/publications/Inzlicht,%20McGregor,%20Hirsh,%20&%20Nash,%20in%20press.pdf)
Should you remain still unconvinced of the neuroscientific basis of what I said earlier please feel free to PM me and I'll happily send you links to further credible research papers on the topic.
"religious healing is all nonsense in my opinion, if religion and gods healed people the country would be full of churches full of chaplains for the sick and injured not hospitals full of doctors and nurses and surgeons" - GetWithTheTimes
it is also worth noting that the effects of any response are in no way curative and are therefore strictly a palliative form of care and as a medical student and an atheist I'd always opt for a syringe of morphine over a copy of the Bible or Qur'an.
Cheers,
Fraser Macleod
neurobiology is NOT religion, also if you believe that religion heals people where are they justified in not allowing religious people a chaplain just to see if chaplains could heal that is cruelty to the patients
religion is a burden on people and especially christians who believe if they are not forgiven for their sins they wont go to heaven so if they are really religious then they will in fact be stressed which will be making them ill untilll they see the religious person be it chaplain or whatever and then have this false feeling of safety or forgiveness that eleviates the stress that makes them feel better
3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine releases ceretonin so why doesnt that get used its probably cheaper than a chaplain
also sexual pleasure and food release dopamine so are you suggesting that i should be having sex and food in hospital to get better?
its this false hope of heaven that makes them happy and releases the chemicals it has nothing to do with the religion itself
and just for the books i hate religion you have probably guessed that by now but that does not make me a bad person nor does it mean i would treat a religious person nasty just because i didnt agree with their beliefs
Fraser Macleod
10-Apr-09, 16:15
"neurobiology is NOT religion, also if you believe that religion heals people where are they justified in not allowing religious people a chaplain just to see if chaplains could heal that is cruelty to the patients" - GetWithTheTimes
You've misunderstood the nature of the study, your control group isn't people that you refuse access to chaplain, it's patients who don't wish to see a chaplain but besides that receive the same standard of care, and you compare the average standard concentrations of various neurotransmitters in the brain to the concentrations during times of illness both with and without the presence of a chaplain or priest and measure the difference.
"3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine releases ceretonin so why doesnt that get used its probably cheaper than a chaplain"
MDMA is currently a schedule 1 controlled substance due to the health risks associated with using it and the high potential for abuse, which makes it unethical to use in pharmaco-therapeutic treatments.
That said though Ecstasy was previously used in psychotherapies prior to it being made illegal to do so, and there's always research being done into the possible therapeutic uses of schedule 1 drugs so maybe in the future it may again be used. With regards to the cost comparison, all treatments which are sanctioned for use by SIGN (Scottish Intercollegiate Guidelines Network) are considered in terms of efficacy, danger, practicality etc.
Regardless of your opinion on organised religion as a whole you cannot deny that there are clear dangers associated with the use of any pharmaceutical intervention that are not a factor in therapies such as the chaplain services.
"also sexual pleasure and food release dopamine so are you suggesting that i should be having sex and food in hospital to get better?"
Yes, I am.
"its this false hope of heaven that makes them happy and releases the chemicals it has nothing to do with the religion itself"
That's a fairly contradictory statement, the concept of the afterlife is something that is part of a persons religious belief and therefore a part of the religion itself.
I wasn't suggesting that the neural response was the result of the religion in the sense that 'God' increased the uptake of dopamine, your quite correct that its the result of the psychological hope process.
"that does not make me a bad person nor does it mean i would treat a religious person nasty just because i didnt agree with their beliefs"
I don't think anyone was suggesting or assuming that you had any prejudice against religious individuals.
Cheers,
Fraser Macleod
orkneylass
10-Apr-09, 17:13
It is always fun to point out that it is only a tolerant society that would give "getwiththetimes" the freedom to express his personal views on religion - the same tolerance that respects the religious beliefs of individuals provided that they do not harm others. I think that taking the idea "it would not work for me so why should anyone get it" is an interesting precedent.......
GetWithTheTimes
10-Apr-09, 17:39
"also sexual pleasure and food release dopamine so are you suggesting that i should be having sex and food in hospital to get better?"
Yes, I am.
i will be sure to tell the nurses next time im in hospital :D
sorry i wasnt in the best of moods today but i since been for a long walk and i am chilled now lol so sorry if i was being out of place
also mdma is one drug alot may say is suseptable to abuse but there are lots of people i used to know who were hooked on valium and tramydoll or summit like that spelling isnt perfect also pain killers with opiates are addictive too that guy from friends was addicted to them i dont know of anyone else lol
anyway i hope you werent offended by my gurning earlier my bad i shouldnt come in here when im in a bad mood lol
i am going to pm you if you dont mind i have a question or two about the person i look after you may be able to help maybe not if you dont mind that is
It is always fun to point out that it is only a tolerant society that would give "getwiththetimes" the freedom to express his personal views on religion - the same tolerance that respects the religious beliefs of individuals provided that they do not harm others. I think that taking the idea "it would not work for me so why should anyone get it" is an interesting precedent.......
well as for tolerant societies most people aren't
i wasnt in a good mood earlier so please excuse me for gurning then
but i dont have the it doesnt work for me so why should anyone get it
i have the religion doesnt heal attitude so why waste money on it
its the belief that they have an afterlife that makes them happy which makes them get better, i like raving but i wouldnt be allowed to have a beer and listen to my dance music in hospital to make me feel better so why should religious people have chaplains
also would a satanist get a dark preacher from a covenant in the hospital and probably not as it would freak out the christians who believe all satanists are evil
its happiness that makes people get better and the will to live if they have nothing to live for they will drift off if they think god is there for them and they will be alright then they will be happy and heal its not religion that fixes things its happiness so why isnt alot of people allowed other things that make them happy in hospital???
im not religious so that means i dont get a chaplian to cheer me up so what do i get to make me happy in the hospital???
the test the guy above was telling me about showing that the chaplains presence helped people doesnt convince me tho, why not have the other patients have people or things they enjoy in there at the taxpayers cost to make them heal better, he said sex and food would help heal so why not have sexy nurses for others who dont like religion
i just think religious people shouldnt get more than others we dont get someone in to make us happy so why should they we all pay taxes so we should all have the extra bit of care in the hospital not just religious people
I love the argument put by some that because they are of the opinion that something is useless then that means it definitely cannot be of use to anybody.
What a particularly self-centred and narrow-minded attitude.
Welcomefamily
11-Apr-09, 07:48
Food does not release Dopamine as such, some of the amino acids in foods are used to create Dopamine, as for sex releasing Dopamine, it would be extremely unlikely however Dopamine levels might be increased during sex. This is likely to be for a range of other reasons.
As for the link between Religion and Healing, yes there is a link due to reduction of Dopamine levels from a reduction in stress. High levels of Dopamine are not generally considered a positive thing because the five Dopamine pathways interact with other chemical neuron transmitters in the brain. At the same time low levels can be quite negative and the concept of Dopamine levels acting in a graident in the synapse (gap between two cells) would be a better idea because ?.
This allows for our behaviour to be regulated within the bounds of the graident for most people with upper and lower limits, which once passed the dopamine starts having a much more negative effect.
High levels of Dopamine being associated with schizophrenic type behaviours hence why drugs that block dopamine receptors are given, low levels are also associated with depressive type behaviours and medications.
Welcomefamily
11-Apr-09, 08:00
When we look at NHS resources, the single biggest condition which accounts for more expenditure than all of the other conditions put together is back pain and other Muscular Skeletal Disorders. The research figures I have got here suggests that in excess of 2% of GNP is spent on it and this figure is increasing. 50% of all GP visits are taken by just 6% of the suffers of it.
No wonder the Health and Safety Executive are so concerned.
Sorry its a little off thread but if the NHS can deal with this it would release huge amounts of money. The figures for NHS sick pay are also staggering.
i have the religion doesnt heal attitude so why waste money on it
All the people here that argue that religion doesnt make you better dont believe. Fullstop. If you believe then you would argue that it does make you better. There are plenty of people that do beleive and i would guess plenty of people that faced with the possibility of their own death pray - long and hard even if they were not sure to start with. Hospitals provide a spiritual service in the way they provide other non medical services - because it helps their patients to get better. Because you or i dont need social services or a counsellor or a hairdresser or a special diet does that mean they shouldnt be provided?
Lets equate it to the power of positive thought - people who remain positive and motivated often see improvements in their health - they get better quicker because they beleive they will and therefore that positive thought helps their recovery. People who dont beleive they are getting better or struggle to be positive tend to take longer.
If you beleive that God or Allah or even Satan is on your side and you TRULY beleive that, then a chaplain visiting you and praying with you and asking for God's help for you will be a positive and maybe healing experience.
Dont we take what we can to get through life and death as easily as possible? Why do other people's beleifs always bring out ridicule? If it helps someone why is it ridiculous for that person?
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