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starry
07-Apr-09, 23:48
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/07/video-g20-police-assault

For it to have happened like this is bad enough, for the police to have lied about it is disgusting.

I found the video hard to watch, poor man was just on his way home from work.

I think the invention of the camera phone will stop many miscarriages of justice.

Gronnuck
08-Apr-09, 08:23
The Met are upholding a not-so-fine tradition of killing innocent people, lying about it and then spreading the blame to widely and so thinly that no individual is held to account.

Who can remember Harry Stanley who was shot yards from his home in Hackney, east London. He had just left a local pub carrying a table leg, which had been repaired. Another customer in the pub called the police after mistaking the table leg for a gun and Harry’s Scottish accent for an Irish one. The police say he was facing them when they shot him. The pathologist said the bullet entered the back of his head.

Look at the lies and deceit spread by the Met about Jean Charles de Menezes immediately after they killed him at Stockwell tube station. The truth only started to emerge days after the event!

The Met have lied again about the way they set about and killed Ian Tomlinson. His death will be subjected to the same type of enquiry and the blame will be spread so thinly that no one individual will be held accountable.

Unfortunately Harry Stanley, Jean Charles de Menezes and Ian Tomlinson will not be remembered by most of us for their accomplishments but for the way they were killed by the Police.

tonkatojo
08-Apr-09, 08:44
Nothing new about the police action is there !. While I recognise they do a difficult job , I often wonder how they become transformed from ordinary citizens to almost robots in their actions, this is also in the way they speak ,it sounds so script like even if you stop one ( I almost said in the street ) and ask a simple question, like directions.

joxville
08-Apr-09, 09:12
Until all the evidence is known and the results from the inquiry into this incident are released then I think this case should not be discussed on here. This is a public forum and as such anything said on here could be prejudicial to the case.

hotrod4
08-Apr-09, 09:40
Watched it a couple of times,he does seem to be taking his time as if to "goad" the police,which in a highly volatile situation would put anyone on edge.All the facts arent known,for example
what happened moments before the footage starts?
Had he been told to move on but became abusive prior to this?
What happened after the footage stops?


From the footage we can only see a very limited picture of events.
the police stated that "protesters" stopped them from assisting him when it was apparent he was ill wheras the protesters state the police stopped "them".

Its too early to judge but i understand that blaming a large organisation like the MET is easier than blaming protesters who are faceless.

Rheghead
08-Apr-09, 09:45
There is something strange about this case that I just can't put my finger upon. Perhaps it is in Ian Tomlinson's body language in the video of acting nonchalantly in front of a whole line up of police officers in riot gear when lots of civil disruption is going on around, was he acting intentionally to block officers in the execution of their duty? Of course the police didn't kill him, he died of a heart attack which may have been brought on by the push. Now if police can't push anybody any more for being accused of causing heart attacks then we are really in it deep to the eyeballs. Now that would be pc gone mad.

A camera never lies, does it? Let's wait till all the evidence is in before making any judgements.

northener
08-Apr-09, 09:52
Nice to see all the anti-police knees jerking.....

Hmmmmm.....

As usual, we ain't got all the facts here. So we're commenting on a very limited amount of information.

But....

My initial reaction was rather critical (ahem,) of the local constabulary.

But watching the clip again it appears that the guy is doing his best to hold up the coppers by deliberately walking as slowly as possible. His gait, posture and head down are all typical of someone doing there best to be awkward whilst still complying with the request to move. The copper gives him a hoof and over he goes.

I'm sorry, but IMO this is a very minor incident that has had tragic consequences. Squawks of 'police brutality' etc would appear to be way over the top. If the guy didn't know he had a heart condition, then how could anyone else? If he did know he had a heart condition, then he's an arse for playing up.

Or maybe the guy is disabled and always walks like that...which changes things somewhat.
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.ukgser.com/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.ukgser.com/forums/report.php?p=1799824) http://www.ukgser.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

Apologies for the odd format, cut and paste seems to have gone a bit skew-wiff.

Bazeye
08-Apr-09, 11:01
But watching the clip again it appears that the guy is doing his best to hold up the coppers by deliberately walking as slowly as possible. His gait, posture and head down

How dare he.

Bazeye
08-Apr-09, 11:05
And how was he holding up the Police? If I want to get in front of somebody Id just walk around them and not push them to the ground.

northener
08-Apr-09, 11:20
We're talking about a mass demonstration that was spoiled by a minority out for trouble.
If the police pussyfooted around every person who didn't play along the whole thing would have been a nightmare from start to finish....speak to anyone who has been involved in dealing with civil unrest - or even on the doors of your local nightclub.

But, like I said, we don't have all the facts do we?

northener
08-Apr-09, 11:21
And how was he holding up the Police? If I want to get in front of somebody Id just walk around them and not push them to the ground.

I really don't think you've ever had to deal with crowd control have you?

Bazeye
08-Apr-09, 11:29
I really don't think you've ever had to deal with crowd control have you?

Neither did the Police on the clip. One mans hardly a crowd.

squidge
08-Apr-09, 11:31
Hmm

This is a snapshot - we have no idea what he said to the officers, what had happened prior to the incident nor what happened after he walked away. He may have been frightened and unsure of which way he should go, he may have been holding the police up and being abusive. We dont know. I think calls for a criminal charges are a bit premature. An inquest will surely be held to decide the cause of death and then and only then should the decision to bring charges be made. If the police were heavy handed or brutal then they must be held to account.

Fortunately its not up to us to decide on that bit of film evidence.

tonkatojo
08-Apr-09, 11:34
It would appear NOTHENER has experience of crowd control, but it still doesn't give him or the current police a free hand to abuse their position by giving anyone a ''HOOF'' push or threaten them with dogs (as shown in video) just for trying to get from a-b, or was the street closed to pedestrians ( I saw what appeared to be civillians to the rear of the officers), this was one man for heavens sake.

As for a ''HOOF'' it looked more like a bloody great push to me.

northener
08-Apr-09, 11:53
It would appear NOTHENER has experience of crowd control, but it still doesn't give him or the current police a free hand to abuse their position by giving anyone a ''HOOF'' push or threaten them with dogs (as shown in video) just for trying to get from a-b, or was the street closed to pedestrians ( I saw what appeared to be civillians to the rear of the officers), this was one man for heavens sake.

As for a ''HOOF'' it looked more like a bloody great push to me.

I'd agree with you 100% Tonka, but the point is we don't have all the facts. The footage released only gives us a 'snapshot'. We cannot say whether the man was innocently walking through the area or whether he was being a pain in the arse. Us muppets ranting on here isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference.

Let's not forget that this is a very minor incident (that had tragic consequences) in the middle of a mass protest marred by violence. Giving one man a bloody hard shove (justified or unjustified) is hardly the 'police brutality' that some would have us believe.

Gene Hunt
08-Apr-09, 12:46
I'd agree with you 100% Tonka, but the point is we don't have all the facts. The footage released only gives us a 'snapshot'. We cannot say whether the man was innocently walking through the area or whether he was being a pain in the arse. Us muppets ranting on here isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference.

Let's not forget that this is a very minor incident (that had tragic consequences) in the middle of a mass protest marred by violence. Giving one man a bloody hard shove (justified or unjustified) is hardly the 'police brutality' that some would have us believe.

Its outrageous bringing a sensible well thought out comment into a misinformed rant about the Police, what were you thinking ?? .. ;)

I would not like to be a Police Officer these days having to deal with the situations they do, there seems to be a never ending line of self proclaimed experts who have zero experience, but 20/20 hindsight, of these situations who rapidly mount up on their high horses.

I saw a lot of footage in which the soap dodging protesters were being overtly aggressive and the Police held back, no doubt because if they did tackle one of these anti capitalist protesters and they were hurt they would soon employ a capitalist lawyer to claim their "'Human rights" were infringed.

I realise that this gentleman was apparently not part of the protest but a snapshot like this clip cannot paint a full picture of the events.

starry
08-Apr-09, 13:38
The police had a difficult job, but this seems to be unprovoked and the force used totally unnecessary. I'll be interested to see how this is defended.

~~Tides~~
08-Apr-09, 14:17
If the guy didn't know he had a heart condition, then how could anyone else? If he did know he had a heart condition, then he's an arse for playing up.

That doesn't necessarily mean it is a defence in the eyes of the law.
There are a number of examples of case law involving bouncers and the like ejecting people from premises in a forceful fashion, who have sustained injuries, and who have subsequently died in hospital. The law on this appears to be, simply, that an assault that leads to a death is manslaughter (culpable homicide in Scotland). A would be assaulter must 'take his victim as he finds him', e.g. if you give a fright to someone who has a weak heart that you didn't know about, too bad you.

However, this is only the case if the policeman went a step too far in carrying out his duties, which is what is going to be the crux of the debate. Its a thin line.

northener
08-Apr-09, 14:26
That doesn't necessarily mean it is a defence in the eyes of the law.
There are a number of examples of case law involving bouncers and the like ejecting people from premises in a forceful fashion, who have sustained injuries, and who have subsequently died in hospital. The law on this appears to be, simply, that an assault that leads to a death is manslaughter (culpable homicide in Scotland). A would be assaulter must 'take his victim as he finds him', e.g. if you give a fright to someone who has a weak heart that you didn't know about, too bad you.

However, this is only the case if the policeman went a step too far in carrying out his duties, which is what is going to be the crux of the debate. Its a thin line.

Indeed. So we are back to the question of whether the gentleman merely wandered into the police line and attempted to exit as quickly as possible (as has been suggested by some) or did he goad the officers resulting an forceful shove from behind?

No matter what happened, it's going to be a complete farce played out with all the hand wringing and melodrama the Media can bring to bear on this tragedy.

Bazeye
08-Apr-09, 16:03
If he was goading the Police he should have been warned. If he then persisted he should have been arrested. He should not have been forcibly pushed to the ground.

northener
08-Apr-09, 16:14
If he was goading the Police he should have been warned. If he then persisted he should have been arrested. He should not have been forcibly pushed to the ground.

That could be very fair comment. Unfortunately we are not privy to all the facts on this case so we cannot possibly say whether the officers actions were justifiable or not.

Playing devils advocate (moi?:eek:) for a minute, after a long day 'at the coalface', getting hacked off with abuse and bottles being hurled at yourself and your colleagues......is it hardly suprising officers over-react occasionally?

We're all sitting here passing judgement on this, yet none of us are having to deal with the reality of dealing with mass demonstration and violence.

I think those who are quick to condemn the actions of the officer may like to spend a couple of hours in some of the situations they (the police) find themselves in. Put on the spot, in the heat of the moment.......

starry
08-Apr-09, 16:19
Are you in the police Northerner ?

northener
08-Apr-09, 16:41
Are you in the police Northerner ?

No Starry, believe me I would make a very, very bad copper.:Razz

starry
08-Apr-09, 16:45
lol me too ;)


I do get what you're saying and it may explain it, I don't think it excuses it though and the MET do have a bad record at admitting when they got things wrong.

I feel heart sorry for his family.

northener
08-Apr-09, 17:37
lol me too ;)


I do get what you're saying and it may explain it, I don't think it excuses it though and the MET do have a bad record at admitting when they got things wrong.

I feel heart sorry for his family.

It's not good no matter how you look at it.

However, the demo was in the City, so it would be on City officers 'patch' - not the Met. Having said that, there would have been officers from Met, Essex and God knows where present that day.
So maybe not wise to 'name' an individual force until all the facts are known. But I aint following this story that closely - so apologies if your understanding is more up to date than mine.

hotrod4
08-Apr-09, 17:40
Crowd control isnt the easiest of jobs I can assure you (I am NOT a copper!!!)Had to do crowd control many years ago at a volatile situation and it is very very hard indeed you have to watch everything for 360 degrees as you never know where an attack or incident may come from.If we prosecuted people on a wee clip of Moby Phone footage then its a sad state of affairs that Harry the Hamster has alot to answer for!!!!![lol]

starry
08-Apr-09, 18:01
Well I hope there is independent inquiry that way both sides will be heard.

I hate the thought that the police are condoned in knocking a man to the ground for any reason other than self defense or defense of others.

Rheghead
08-Apr-09, 18:31
Looking at the video it is hard to say if the man was warned (or not) to get out of the police's way because of the timing and quality of the video. However, I doubt that the police would make an unprovoked attack on an innocent bystander who was obviously just meandering aimlessly across their view without giving a warning. Now who in their right mind walks across a line of policemen with dogs in in a very tense stand-off situation as if he was out looking for a lost penny in a park?[disgust]

bekisman
08-Apr-09, 18:45
Gronnuck: "The Met are upholding a not-so-fine tradition of killing innocent people" "The Met have lied again about the way they set about and killed Ian Tomlinson"

Hang on mate, the police did not 'kill' Ian Tomlinson, he was shoved. Fair enough you, yourself may never have been in a high stress situation? if you have, do tell.
I have, during riots in N.Ireland.
We do not know the full details of what went on, but by watching the vid it shows a man, hands in pockets, standing in front of moving officers, Bazeye;"If I want to get in front of somebody Id just walk around them and not push them to the ground". displays a rather naive appreciation of the situation at that time. He moves slowly and was given a shove that sent him flying, unfortunately it appears he later suffered a heart attack, (although a second PM has been ordered). Possibly he was suffering from an illness, but to grandly state the coppers 'killed' him, is stretching it i.e. every protestor that's shoved could be killed?
I noticed that when the coppers were tending to him. some plonker still threw a bottle at 'em

starry
08-Apr-09, 19:00
The pressure thing doesn't wash with me, I would lash out if I was trying to police a protest, but that is why I am not in the police ;)


He was clearly hit in the back of the leg and then struck in the back. He was IMHO calmly walking away with his hands in his pockets and his back to the police officer and the idiot who attacked him will walk away scot free and give his colleagues a bad name. Everyone loses.

If they were rushing to control something off camera that we couldn't see then why are they still standing around after he has fallen.
If they had a problem with him they should have arrested him, not knocked him to the ground.

Bazeye
08-Apr-09, 23:19
Gronnuck: "The Met are upholding a not-so-fine tradition of killing innocent people" "The Met have lied again about the way they set about and killed Ian Tomlinson"

Hang on mate, the police did not 'kill' Ian Tomlinson, he was shoved. Fair enough you, yourself may never have been in a high stress situation? if you have, do tell.
I have, during riots in N.Ireland.
We do not know the full details of what went on, but by watching the vid it shows a man, hands in pockets, standing in front of moving officers, Bazeye;"If I want to get in front of somebody Id just walk around them and not push them to the ground". displays a rather naive appreciation of the situation at that time. He moves slowly and was given a shove that sent him flying, unfortunately it appears he later suffered a heart attack, (although a second PM has been ordered). Possibly he was suffering from an illness, but to grandly state the coppers 'killed' him, is stretching it i.e. every protestor that's shoved could be killed?
I noticed that when the coppers were tending to him. some plonker still threw a bottle at 'em

I was not "displaying a rather naive appreciation of the situation at the time", I was responding to Northeners post earlier. Further footage proves that he was hit with a baton before he was knocked to the ground.

alex
09-Apr-09, 00:27
While I don't know what actually happened and the Guardian footage doesn't look too good for the particular officer involved, I shall say this -

Thank our lucky stars that we can even talk about such incidents, where I have lived for a decade such protests would never be allowed and police would be armed with semi-automatics rather than batons (and use them much more quickly) and the press is so tied up to political shenanigans that only 3 pages of the national Times actually contain any attempt of reporting news.

My sympathies are for Mr Tomlinson's family of course, and it takes me back to that old African proverb "When elephants fight, it is the grass that gets crushed". Certainly he, personally (as a newspaper vendor) was not a man who could be blamed for causing the global economic crisis. Nor was he a bolshy protester reeking vengeance on his daily customers. My guess is that he was pretending to have as normal day as possible in his own mind and ignoring everything going on as much as he could - which was what got him into trouble with the officers he walked in front of.

Has anyone seen the movie "Battle for Seattle"? A fictional depiction of the first of these major protests, it shows very well, in my opinion, the thinking of those on the front line and though not excusing, demonstrates how massive moral mistakes can be made at an individual level in the pursuit of the greater good.

Let us not vent our anger on the City of London Police Officers at this particular spot (nor the Met either) but reserve it for those who really made the mistakes that caused people to want to protest in the first place.

Mr Tomlinson's whole posture, until he was knocked to the floor, suggests that, if he's looking down now, he will be quite upset at his sudden fame. I'm sure it is not what he had planned. May he rest in peace.

Aaldtimer
09-Apr-09, 03:34
RIP indeed.
My take on this is that anyone, walking with their hands in their pockets, and being thrust to the ground as this poor fellow was, is going to suffer some sort of serious injury.
Unfortunately, in this case, it resulted in fatality![disgust]

northener
10-Apr-09, 15:09
Well, I'm no fan of the Daily Mail - but I've put this link in to point out to those who believed Mr Tomlinson 'was merely trying to get home' are, in fact, wrong.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1168315/G20-policeman-suspended-new-pictures-reveal-victims-drunken-clash-officers-shortly-collapsed.html

upolian
11-Apr-09, 19:29
that was uncalled for pushing him like that,why not just grab his arm and pull him out the way?and all the distance he travelled while being pushed?he landed a few feet ahead on the ground,he was talkin to officers and lay idle on the ground was he getting in the way then,no?why?he was still in front of them,that is complete madness,my initial reaction would be to wrap that copper round the head with the nearest hard object,i cant believe that video,im shocked:confused