View Full Version : What next
Tighsonas4
07-Apr-09, 19:25
where on earth are we going in this country when a 10 year old and 11 are in the dock for such a crime.
we seem to have lost the place somewhere along the line tony
when you think of Jamie Bulger then this is not such a surprise.The mentality of kids these days seems to be very adult like .:(
Penelope Pitstop
07-Apr-09, 19:36
Social services will get the blame...what about the parents[disgust]
All for some used trainers and scruffy beaten-up mobile phones. Today's society is just too materialistic and dispassionate.
I read in the paper they were under the care of foster parents. Does anyone know if they child who was critical in hospital is any better?
I read in the paper they were under the care of foster parents. Does anyone know if they child who was critical in hospital is any better?
he is much better...off ventilator,and has been moved closer to his home.
the other boy has had 2 ops. his arm.
celtic lass
07-Apr-09, 21:19
the worst is its the world we live in ,the day the goverment took the belt out of the schools and the rights of the parents to punish their children you could see it coming NANNY STATE springs to mind my thoughts go to the two injured children and their families
changilass
07-Apr-09, 21:26
Can anyone provide a link, I aint got a clue what you are talking about, but it sounds serious.
Gene Hunt
07-Apr-09, 21:30
Can anyone provide a link, I aint got a clue what you are talking about, but it sounds serious.
This is the story here .. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6053832.ece
Shocking stuff.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7987950.stm
changilass
07-Apr-09, 21:36
Cheers for the link GH and Lizz, wish I hadn't asked for it now, that is awful.
What makes kids of that age behave that way?
I don't believe folks are born evil, so there must be something in their lives that has made them believe this is acceptable behaviour.
Thank goodness that the majority don't think this way.
this story is shocking, to think to kids as young as this are capable of suc avile crime, mind you as justine said, mind when it was poor little james bulger, no discipline or respect for anyone these days.
teenybash
08-Apr-09, 00:05
the worst is its the world we live in ,the day the goverment took the belt out of the schools and the rights of the parents to punish their children you could see it coming NANNY STATE springs to mind my thoughts go to the two injured children and their families
You have got it spot on..................we live in a society where our young people know there are no consequences for their actions and some are using this to use and abuse and now to almost kill two wee lads for material gain.
The parents of the youngster who carried out the attack will simply wail ''Social Services are not doing enough''................It's not up to government departments it's up to parent and educators who must be given back their rights to instill a sense of discipline.........without this rules and regulations mean nothing as there are No Consequences.
You have got it spot on..................we live in a society where our young people know there are no consequences for their actions and some are using this to use and abuse and now to almost kill two wee lads for material gain.
The parents of the youngster who carried out the attack will simply wail ''Social Services are not doing enough''................It's not up to government departments it's up to parent and educators who must be given back their rights to instill a sense of discipline.........without this rules and regulations mean nothing as there are No Consequences.
You are right in saying its down to the parents to instill discipline, but unfortunately these days it seems the kids no nothing better than what they learn from their parents. If you have kids whos parents think they are tough and act accordingly then thats what the kids will think is right. these 2 boys went from boys to animals in less than a minute, pack mentality which almost cost two young lads their lives and these 2 will end up in a juevenile centre till their 18 and then handed over to another place with new identities and they will have the RIGHT to a life, What about the victims, they will always remember that day forever, scars heal, mental scars dont. Many thoughts for the families of the victims.
oldmarine
08-Apr-09, 00:49
This is the story here .. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6053832.ece
Shocking stuff.
Starting quite young aren't they?
They had corporal punishment in Mary Bell's day. Did it make a difference?
She was ten years old when she commited those murders, what was the diagnosis then?
the poacher
08-Apr-09, 01:20
wat happened to the earlier days
my dad told me a story once
he was going home from his friends one day and he gave a police man cheek well the police man got a had o him and gave him a clout across the lug and dragged him home the police man told mygrandad and then my grandad gave my dad another clout across the lug and sent him to his bed.
try and do that now and see wat happens no dont you will land up getting in trouble with the police not the child he will walk free
and they wonder why kids do what they do nowadays
in that days kids were taught respect by beinggiving a clout when being bad nowadays its the kids who give the adults a clout and get away with it
wat happened to the earlier days
my dad told me a story once
he was going home from his friends one day and he gave a police man cheek well the police man got a had o him and gave him a clout across the lug and dragged him home the police man told mygrandad and then my grandad gave my dad another clout across the lug and sent him to his bed.
try and do that now and see wat happens no dont you will land up getting in trouble with the police not the child he will walk free
and they wonder why kids do what they do nowadays
in that days kids were taught respect by beinggiving a clout when being bad nowadays its the kids who give the adults a clout and get away with itA clout round the ear doesn't work with those of a murderous predisposition.
The fact that these two boys were brothers and lived with foster parents, shows there were problems before this happened.
the thing is, that for the majority of children, bad behaviour can be curbed. no a corpal punishment will not stop a mentaly distupued serial killer in the making, but most kids are not in that group.
a large majority are in the group where they run wild, know thier rights inside and out, have absolutly no respect for anyone or anything, and basically get a getout of jail free card because they are innocent children.
do kids deserve to go to jail, court ect like an adult? normally i would say no.
does a child need strict rules and morality installed? Yes!
do they need corporal punishment.. again Yes at times.
i also belive n grounding, extreme taking away of privilges, and lets face it a week or two with no friends no phones no computers no games no tv no music, no money.... ect..ect.. will not kill them...
also, some hard labour will do a world of good. extra chores garden duty, poopie scoopie duty.. great chatecter builders.. and you dont have to lay a hand on em!
Oh god i know i harp on about this and im sure many of you are rolling your eyes already but i absolutely and totally believe that as a society we have to shoulder some of the blame. We have lost the cohesion that we used to have and that makes it easier for children to fall through the cracks. We used to have aunties, grannys brothers uncles to help with disciplining kids where mums and dads werent able to get through. Where you damn well knew that if you were caught misbehaving someone would tell your parents or your uncle and you would get a hiding or a punishment. Now we have a society where people - adults - wont even open their mouths to try to stop attacks on kids on buses. We absolve ourselves of our responsibilities to each other and society in general by saying how awful it is, tut tutting and closing and locking our doors.
These accused boys are 10 and 11 - they cant have been born bad, their home life was by all accounts chaotic, they rarely saw their father who was a carer for his own parents, they ended up in foster care because their mother couldnt cope but this appeared to have little ability to discipline and regulate their behaviour. Where was the support from the council for the foster carers if these children were known to have challenging behaviour?
The victims of these boys will be scarred for life, emotionally as well as physically probably, but can welay the blame totally at the feet of the accused boys? They are hardly more than babies themselves. Wherever did they get the idea that this was an acceptable way to behave? How many times was a blindeye turned to their violent behaviour? By parents, people in the street, police, teachers, social workers the list goes on. somehow and somewhere along the line we have to find a way of supporting parents to be paretns where they havent the skills to do so. They dont always have that extended family to step in when things are going wrong.
somehow and somewhere along the line we have to find a way of supporting parents to be paretns where they havent the skills to do so.
All admirable words on paper but what do you do with the horses that have been led to water but can't be bothered to drink? Because it is this small minority of parents that are causing all this problem.
:confused
There will always be people like that and that really where the state care system should help but at the moment our hands are tied because the care system is so bad that almost ANYTHING is better than taking children into care, over half leave care without qualifications, a third of the prison population is made up of people who were brought up in care.... the list of how we fail the most vulnerable children in our society goes on and on... I amd not bashing the social workers here - i always think they are damned if they do and damned if they dont but the care system needs urgently and completely overhauling. More money,more staff, more focus maybe a completely different way of doing things.
I dont have the answers I'm afraid other than to live my life and teach my children to live theirs in a socially responsible way:roll:.... Fine words I know but getting involved in voluntary work and stepping in where you see a child or a young person in trouble and caring about others is the only way i know how to make any sort of difference. Not being too quick to judge and being quicker to hold out a hand to help than to push away, I dunno rheghead but what i beleive is that we are all responsible for the society we live in. If we dont speak up when a child does wrong because its none of our business like the people on the bus in that programme then we cant be surprised when that child goes on to learn their behaviour is acceptable.
Tighsonas4
08-Apr-09, 13:02
this posts are all very well and thought provoking but as a society we didnt get here over nightover the years things have changed dramatically
policing has been altered, and there was atime when there was no social works of any kind
this is either 7 or 9 incidents in a very short period of time
is it going to get worse before it gets better or what ???no easy answer im afraid tony
oldmarine
09-Apr-09, 00:42
They had corporal punishment in Mary Bell's day. Did it make a difference?
She was ten years old when she commited those murders, what was the diagnosis then?
And so.....TBH, you believe that we should let these things continue to happen because nothing else can be done about it? Shame on you!
What about the news that was on Breakfast BBC this morning? The bit about youths deliberately trying to cause a train crash? They were playing chicken on the tracks dodging just as the train went through; also were chucking shopping trollies and paving slabs onto the tracks. If they have been caught on cctv why on earth haven't they been dealt with? :eek:
And so.....TBH, you believe that we should let these things continue to happen because nothing else can be done about it? Shame on you!
And so.........oldmarine, you are assuming a lot when you consider, (which you obviously didn't), that my post never inferred that we should allow these things to continue to happen! Shame on you.
What I did infer is that corporal punishment in schools nor a clip on the ear at home would nor did prevent Mary Bell from commiting the murders of two young boys.
Are there certain aspects of society past that are missing today which could have helped prevent these boys doing what they did? I don't know the answer to that, neither do you but because I don't see any value in corporal punishment then I must be quite happy to allow these types of crimes to persist? There may be logic in your post, somewhere, but I can't see it.
captial punishment was set as a deterrent, but the numbers speak for themselves.
Mary bell spent time in prison only to be released. Luckily she was one that reformed and she is still alive leading a normal life, which is more to say for the victims of her crime.
Parents are not always to blame in a situation like this. Killers are genetically flawed (scientifically proven to a point), they have no feelings of love , hate, remorse, conscience. They know no right from wrong in the sense we understand the meanings. Because they feel no remorse they believe it is right to kill. Jeffery Dalmer was a pure example of this. he admitted he was a killer from a young age.
These two boys did not go round killing animals as a youngster 4-5yrs old, they chose to do this because they could.
many kids have a hard life by the time they are 10, because of family situations but they dont all turn out to be Killers or violent in any way.IMO
Alice in Blunderland
09-Apr-09, 16:44
I dont know what the answer is in this instance. It is a sad fact that these things have and will continue to happen.
Going back to a point made earlier about how a clout around the ear earned respect..........
My mum used to tell us about when her dad belted with his hand or the strap, her and her brothers as punishment for what they used to do as children. This did not instill respect from them to their father it taught them to fear him and his type of punishment and so it made them extra sure if they did do wrong they tried not to get caught. :(
I dont need to hit my children I do however punish them should they step out of line. I explain clearly what they have done wrong and carry out the punishment to the end. Consistantcy is my policy with all my children I can be hard but fair and I am constantly trying to instill respect for others and their belongings. I do believe that it all starts in the home and how the parents are with their children. Lead by example. :)
I dont know what the answer is in this instance. It is a sad fact that these things have and will continue to happen.
Going back to a point made earlier about how a clout around the ear earned respect..........
My mum used to tell us about when her dad belted with his hand or the strap, her and her brothers as punishment for what they used to do as children. This did not instill respect from them to their father it taught them to fear him and his type of punishment and so it made them extra sure if they did do wrong they tried not to get caught. :(
I dont need to hit my children I do however punish them should they step out of line. I explain clearly what they have done wrong and carry out the punishment to the end. Consistantcy is my policy with all my children I can be hard but fair and I am constantly trying to instill respect for others and their belongings. I do believe that it all starts in the home and how the parents are with their children. Lead by example. :)
Which would work in most instances but unforunately todays society does not help. Children stand little chance of keeping up with what you teach them at home when they become a person out of the house. There are many influences out there that we have no control over, and as we cannot keep our children from seeing what really happens in the " Big Bad World" out of the home, there will always be a chance that one in ten may go the wrong way no matter how we do it.
Alice in Blunderland
09-Apr-09, 17:24
Which would work in most instances but unforunately todays society does not help. Children stand little chance of keeping up with what you teach them at home when they become a person out of the house. There are many influences out there that we have no control over, and as we cannot keep our children from seeing what really happens in the " Big Bad World" out of the home, there will always be a chance that one in ten may go the wrong way no matter how we do it.
This is true but you can only hope that with guidance and a good start that your children will take on what you say and use it when they fly the nest.
You can only do your best with them. :)
You give your children the tools to make the right decisions. In addition you have to be vigilant to ensure that you do what you can to make sure they are safe - curfews, knowing where they are and who they are with, confronting fibs and making sure they know that you know they are not telling the truth; You have to say no and mean no and you absolutely have to forget about being embarrassed about embarrassing them. Despite these things you have to make sure they know that when or if they are in a situation they cant control you will be there NO MATTER WHAT - that they can phone you and you will come and help them even if they are scared they will be in trouble- the chances are that if they know that they will tell you when they are in trouble and really need your help. Then you keep your fingers crossed, hold your breath, worry about them and hope ....and thats all you can do.
Who gets it right all the time? None of us- thank goodness they dont know most of the time that we are bluffing or havent a clue what we will do if they disobey us. I remember when my eldest was being particularly difficult i had said he wasnt allowed out and he said he would just go anyway and i couldnt stop him. I fixed my face and said "is that right? - Fine you go out and just you wait and see what will happen. You'll wish you hadnt gone my lad" then I sat upstairs and hoped he wouldnt push it cos i had NO IDEA what i was going to do if he went out. He didnt. He is 20 now and i asked asked him a couple of months ago why he didnt go and he said " cos i didnt know what you would do" I laughed and said "neither did I" and he was truly surprised!!!! Crikey we hang on by the skin of our teeth sometimes.
You give your children the tools to make the right decisions. In addition you have to be vigilant to ensure that you do what you can to make sure they are safe - curfews, knowing where they are and who they are with, confronting fibs and making sure they know that you know they are not telling the truth; You have to say no and mean no and you absolutely have to forget about being embarrassed about embarrassing them. Despite these things you have to make sure they know that when or if they are in a situation they cant control you will be there NO MATTER WHAT - that they can phone you and you will come and help them even if they are scared they will be in trouble- the chances are that if they know that they will tell you when they are in trouble and really need your help. Then you keep your fingers crossed, hold your breath, worry about them and hope ....and thats all you can do.
Who gets it right all the time? None of us- thank goodness they dont know most of the time that we are bluffing or havent a clue what we will do if they disobey us. I remember when my eldest was being particularly difficult i had said he wasnt allowed out and he said he would just go anyway and i couldnt stop him. I fixed my face and said "is that right? - Fine you go out and just you wait and see what will happen. You'll wish you hadnt gone my lad" then I sat upstairs and hoped he wouldnt push it cos i had NO IDEA what i was going to do if he went out. He didnt. He is 20 now and i asked asked him a couple of months ago why he didnt go and he said " cos i didnt know what you would do" I laughed and said "neither did I" and he was truly surprised!!!! Crikey we hang on by the skin of our teeth sometimes.
I did hear that the most intelligent kids were the ones that were most able to fool their parents. Do you want your kids to be intelligent?:confused
I did hear that the most intelligent kids were the ones that were most able to fool their parents. Do you want your kids to be intelligent?:confused
LOL Say No More :lol:
oldmarine
10-Apr-09, 00:58
And so.........oldmarine, you are assuming a lot when you consider, (which you obviously didn't), that my post never inferred that we should allow these things to continue to happen! Shame on you.
What I did infer is that corporal punishment in schools nor a clip on the ear at home would nor did prevent Mary Bell from commiting the murders of two young boys.
Are there certain aspects of society past that are missing today which could have helped prevent these boys doing what they did? I don't know the answer to that, neither do you but because I don't see any value in corporal punishment then I must be quite happy to allow these types of crimes to persist? There may be logic in your post, somewhere, but I can't see it.
I'm 84 years old and had a paddle laid across my backside by a teacher when I deserved it. That got my attention and I did not enjoy it so I tried putting on better behavior. Yes, during WW2 when I was 17 to 20 years of age I did turn to violence due to circumstances beyond my control. When I returned home and started a family I was an authority with my children. They grew up realizing I was serious avout their misbehaving. I rarely had to get physical because my children knew I was serious about their behavior. My children were respected by their teachers due to their good behavior and good grades. Fortunately my children raised their children in the same manner. They likewise are respected by their teachers as well as other parents. Even other children can see the difference. I see a lot of opposites in other children of today because I believe their parents let them run wild without correction. Sorry ole boy, I disagree with your logic.
Aaldtimer
10-Apr-09, 03:55
[quote=TBH;530872]And so.........oldmarine, you are assuming a lot when you consider, (which you obviously didn't), that my post never inferred that we should allow these things to continue to happen! Shame on you.
What I did infer is that corporal punishment in schools nor a clip on the ear at home would nor did prevent Mary Bell from commiting the murders of two young boys.
TBH, Mary Bell grew up in a completely dysfuctional environment, what makes you think she ever got a clip on the ear for anything?
I did hear that the most intelligent kids were the ones that were most able to fool their parents. Do you want your kids to be intelligent?:confused
LOL. Like i said you cross your fingers and hope. I know fine well that my kids fool me plenty of time but as long as i am able to fool them some of the time too i might not fail miserably.
Dont you think its a bit like a magical mystery tour - being a parent? You trundle along with only a vague idea of where you are going hoping that the end result is a nice one? You try to follow the rules of the road and make the right decisions in choosing which way to go but in the end you have NO guarantees that you will get the end result you would really like. You can take the advice that everyone gives you but you really have to just cross your fingers and hope.
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