View Full Version : Solution to bilingual signs problem?
It's obvious from the previous poll that most folk here are resistant to blanket bilingual signs in Caithness. Here's a compromise solution - I wonder if most of us (Gaels AND non-Gaels) could agree to this?
In case you're wondering why there's no "No, I don't want any bilingual signs in Caithness" as an option - the reason is that, like it or not, that is no longer an option. The Highland Council policy is clear on this and the best we can do is negotiate a solution to protect our Norse corner.
The choice is some signs or blanket signs. I wish it were otherwise, believe me...:roll:
I wont be voting then tootler. The Gaelic activists watching this site will be wringing their hands in glee.
This is a stupid [poll and would be better suited had you sent it to the Stornaway gazzette.
With friends like you in Caithness who needs enemies? ;)
kmahon2001
27-Mar-09, 12:14
I voted to leave the Norse placenames as they are.
Let us hope that the Powers-That-Be in Inverness are willing to make this compromise.
As I said before, I have no objection to bilingual roadsigns for Gaelic placenames, but it's rediculous renaming or making up spellings for non-Gaelic placenames.
As I said before, I have no objection to bilingual roadsigns for Gaelic placenames, but it's rediculous renaming or making up spellings for non-Gaelic placenames.
Remember that we are dealing with Highland Council here and ridiculous is second nature to these people.
I wont be voting then tootler. The Gaelic activists watching this site will be wringing their hands in glee.
This is a stupid [poll and would be better suited had you sent it to the Stornaway gazzette.
With friends like you in Caithness who needs enemies? ;)
I love you, too, Gleeber!:Razz
Sun Circle
27-Mar-09, 13:36
In case you're wondering why there's no "No, I don't want any bilingual signs in Caithness" as an option - the reason is that, like it or not, that is no longer an option. The Highland Council policy is clear on this and the best we can do is negotiate a solution to protect our Norse corner.
The choice is some signs or blanket signs. I wish it were otherwise, believe me...:roll:
Excellent solution, Tootler. Surely neither side can argue against this... placenames with Gaelic origin will be restored to their native language and placenames with Norse origin will not have their history re-written by modern roadsigns.
I'm sorry that Gleeber can't find it in his/her heart to vote... with this solution Thurso gets to keep its sign! There is no compromise involved on either side - the Norse heritage is secure and the Gaels are welcome in Caithness as they have always been.
Lets see if we can keep it at 100% and present those decision-makers in the south with a solution to this thorny issue - I'll be wanting to see a good post from anyone who votes against Tootler's suggestion! It seems emminently reasonable to me.
pinotnoir
27-Mar-09, 14:48
I also think this is a great compromise.
Whoever has devised it should think of representing us in Inverness.
I also think this is a great compromise.
Whoever has devised it should think of representing us in Inverness.
Perhaps Each could represent us in Inverness but I'll certainly not be putting myself up to become a councillor until Caithness gets some real level of local democracy again. I really feel for our local councillors - they do their best to represent us but they're outnumbered in Inverness and they've lost a lot of their local powers. This issue is just one of many where the needs of Caithness folk are being ignored by our council in Inverness. But that's surely for a different thread...;)
Why does Highland Council think bi-lingual signs are needed? I think anyone that can speak Gaelic probably uses it as a second language, therefore English is all that's needed on signs. There are already too many signs littering the county, especially entering towns, and for drivers having to process info rather quickly I think the bi-lingual signs could lead to more accidents.
oldchemist
27-Mar-09, 18:03
I think that bi-lingual signs will offend muslims so HRC must drop the idea immediately.
Alice in Blunderland
27-Mar-09, 19:43
I think that bi-lingual signs will offend muslims so HRC must drop the idea immediately.
The muslim in my house sees no offence in Bilingual signs......................a little offence at offhand, flip comments at times ;)
Good idea for the poll.
Coming from a place with 72 national languages, the signs in Zambia are simply in English script. The language on a road sign has absolutely no impact on the local people or the language or dialect they communicate in.
The preservation of a culture and a language can't be left to the likes of lost tourists and truck drivers...
Or council officers!
My personal opinion is that road signs are there to help strangers navigate their route not to alienate strangers or become tourist novelties.
Alice in Blunderland
27-Mar-09, 20:46
Lots of folkies these days have sat nav :lol: Signs :eek: who needs signs ;)
I've yet to decide if I'm going to vote on this one...
I think the choice offered doesn't help the discussion, its not balanced and over simplifies the issues we have been discussing on the earlier thread.
Neither option appeals to me - I have no overwhelming desire to plaster gaelic across every road sign in the county from trunk road and country lane to cul de sac throughout town and county.
A simple recognition on trunk road signage would make all the difference...
...along with a break from neighbours relentless going on about "nobody speaks gaelic in Caithness..." "Gaels dont belong here..." and "its a dead language why waste money on it... ".
Sun Circle
27-Mar-09, 21:10
I'm puzzled as to why anyone would think that bilingual Gaelic signs across the whole of Caithness would be a good thing, given the discussion we've had about the mixed heritage of the place and the importance of preserving the local dialect.
The strong placename and historical evidence shows that whilst the Norse influence has abided, both in placenames and in dialect, there is no evidence to show that Gaelic has had a significant influence in NE Caithness... so why litter it with Gaelic signs and pretend it was part of Gaeldom against all the evidence to the contrary?
In the interests of understanding opposing minds will someone please tell me why they've voted for blanket gaelic signage?
Even Caithness folk with true Gaelic blood (if any are watching this thread), would surely appreciate that the Norse heritage of the NE corner should not be overwritten falsely with Gaelic.
Maybe the "no" votes are coming from outside the county from folk who have not experienced the fullness of the Caithness culture, its dialect and its people? I'd love to know how they are thinking and how they come to the conclusion that Gaelic signage is appropriate here?
Sun Circle
27-Mar-09, 21:15
I've yet to decide if I'm going to vote on this one...
I think the choice offered doesn't help the discussion, its not balanced and over simplifies the issues we have been discussing on the earlier thread.
Neither option appeals to me - I have no overwhelming desire to plaster gaelic across every road sign in the county from trunk road and country lane to cul de sac throughout town and county.
A simple recognition on trunk road signage would make all the difference...
...along with a break from neighbours relentless going on about "nobody speaks gaelic in Caithness..." "Gaels dont belong here..." and "its a dead language why waste money on it... ".
Why do you find it so difficult to accept that placenames with Gaelic origin should be translated into Gaelic and placenames with other cultural influences should be left alone? Never mind Caithness, this simple policy could be applied across Scotland with great effect and with offending anyone. It is an elegant solution - why does the Gaelic Board want more than this?
Is it so difficult for Gaels to accept that Gaelic has a place in our modern Scottish society, but that to push other cultures aside does it no favours and instead will only serve to make enemies of Gaelic where there were no enemies before?
Sun Circle
27-Mar-09, 21:17
sorry - that last post should have said "without offending anyone"!
A simple recognition on trunk road signage would make all the difference...
...along with a break from neighbours relentless going on about "nobody speaks gaelic in Caithness..." "Gaels dont belong here..." and "its a dead language why waste money on it... ".
It looks like tootlers new found Gaelic ally has done the dirty on him and his appeasing pals and is now peeping on about being persecuted in caithness. :confused Sorry but that's that nature of discussions of this kind and if you take it personal it becomes something it isnt.
This is an important issue and because the powers that be were fairly secretive about their plans for the Gaelic language most of us didnt hear about it until after it happened. There's a good enough reason for a re-trial without even thinking about it.
You guys are just laying down your weapons and being trod on. Heres a question for your poll. Would you rather all this nonsense would go away and Gaeldom just kept itself ticking over in the background? I would vote for that. This is nonsense that we are having this discussion in the 21 century. I suppose that's how the Gaelic lobby got its power. From people giving in a little bit every time. Now they are demanding we pay more attention to them. Where will it stop? It needs to be challenged not appeased.
Language is a very fluid form of expression, constantly changing and evolving in a chaotic way - ( you just have to look at the contribution catherine tait has made to english)
People will refer to places in their own language and in their own terms, I dont think anybody is able to exert any control over that and trying to make up artificial rules that people are expected to follow (however well intentioned) will be a futile exercise.
The other problem will rules like these, is that you can become a hostage to them, instead of having a discussion about where Gaelic signage is appropriate, we will end up having arguments about the true origins of each and every place name in the county to see which side "owns it". Another futile exercise.
Wick, Thurso, Latheron, Halkirk, etc already have gaelic names which are in common usage amongst the gaelic community. I dont think you can turn around and say that Gaels can no longer use these names to refer to these places.
Because I think that the way the question has been frames is problematic - it does not mean that I dont value or want to protect Norse Heritage.
The other problem will rules like these, is that you can become a hostage to them, instead of having a discussion about where Gaelic signage is appropriate, we will end up having arguments about the true origins of each and every place name in the county to see which side "owns it". Another futile exercise.
The research has all already been done - no arguments required - the placenames experts have already clearly decided which Caithness names have Gaelic origin, which have Norse origin and which fascinating few in the NE corner reveal the fragile fragments of the old language which was here even before Norse - the Pictish language. This exercise could be done simply, independently and without the need for argument. It's not complicated and, importantly, it would not be controversial for the local people who live here. I'm not trying to be difficult - I'm just looking for the easiest and the most historically acurate solution.
The A9 will get no bilingual signposts until after the Mod 2010 - the transport minister's decided that already, like it or not. Putting up Gaelic signs on the other roads in Caithness, even signposting places like Wick and Thurso in Gaelic (and I can acknowledge your argument there) would be a disastrous move in the lead up to the Mod 2010. Most of the Caithness locals can accept a Gaelic name for a Gaelic place, but the resistance to Gaelic signposts for non-Gaelic names is HUGE (and justified) and must not be underestimated by the "pro-Gaelic" lobby.
My only slight regret about this poll is that I didn't give the chance for the locals who don't want any Gaelic signs at all to vote for that - this would at least have demonstrated the strength of feeling here - people like Gleeber are not the minority you might think. Feeling here is VERY strong on this issue.
The anti-Norse zealots I was reading about on the cover of the Groat today have completely misunderstood the situation from their far away home on the Western Isles. No wonder the Gaelic community's confused by our reaction if that's how it's being reported to them. :roll:
Oh, and Sun Circle's right - would the three people who want blanket bilingual signs everywhere please explain to us all how that would help in the promotion of the Gaelic in Caithness? I'm afraid it would actually have quite the opposite effect here and is terribly disrespectful to our unique local heritage. Stop hiding - we want to understand you! (Or perhaps you have limited Internet access in the Western Isles?:lol:)
ywindythesecond
27-Mar-09, 22:50
Why don't we ask Highland Council to present the Business Case for Gaelic signage in Caithness, and then have a referendum on whether it is good value for our money?
A supplementary question could be: How much value will be added to the good cause for preservation and advancement of the Gaelic language through Gaelic road signs etc in Caithness?
A further question might be: Doesn't Highland Council know that it is our servant, not our master?
The cost/benefit issue was addressed in the earlier thread
Cost of adding Gaelic to signs £100 per sign -
So cost of Gaidhlig to trunk road signage - max £2,000 for 20 signs.
Direct economic benefit of Mod to local economy where it is held £1 million.
The economic argument is a no brainer.
The fact that your havign difficulty accepting the choice that some have made in the poll is just a further indication of the fact that the question has been framed badly.
A poll where there is only one answer that is acceptable to the pollster is hardly likely to return an objective measure of opinion.
The cost/benefit issue was addressed in the earlier thread
I'm sorry not to have followed that particular thread but assume you summarise below
Cost of adding Gaelic to signs £100 per sign -
So cost of Gaidhlig to trunk road signage - max £2,000 for 20 signs.
Not actually a huge amount of cash.
Direct economic benefit of Mod to local economy where it is held £1 million.
Is this going to be extra funding from central government? If so where will it be spent? It just makes no sense to me.
The economic argument is a no brainer.
I am going to apply for a grant to get bicycles for cattle. It'll make it so much easier to get them in for milking...
The fact that your havign difficulty accepting the choice that some have made in the poll is just a further indication of the fact that the question has been framed badly.
A poll where there is only one answer that is acceptable to the pollster is hardly likely to return an objective measure of opinion.
I was hoping this might be a poll where we could all come to a compromise solution that would be good for Gaelic promotion AND good for Caithness! Obviously too much to ask for!:roll:
I can accept that a few people are choosing to vote for blanket signs and I can guess why, but I'd like that clarified by the people who are actually voting that way. The fact that they are silent makes me suspect they are, in fact, not actually from Caithness and so really don't understand the nature of the local problem we face here. I also suspect they don't understand the untold damage blanket bilingual signs would do to the Gaelic cause in Caithness in the current political climate.
Each - I'm trying to help to encourage positive Gaelic promotion in Caithness while also protecting our genuine local heritage which I value greatly. What are you trying to do? Finding an amicable agreement is my only agenda, I can promise you that.
I am trying to do the same...
... thats why I haven't voted yet !
I am not comfortable with either option - for the reasons mentioned above
I would like to see gaelic recognised as a living language - I would also like to see the norse heritage of caithness protected and celebrated....
- if a gun was put to my head and I was forced to choose which way do you think I would jump ?
I am trying to do the same...
... thats why I haven't voted yet !
I am not comfortable with either option - for the reasons mentioned above
I would like to see gaelic recognised as a living language - I would also like to see the norse heritage of caithness protected and celebrated....
- if a gun was put to my head and I was forced to choose which way do you think I would jump ?
I think that's why the Gaelic lobby need challenged now. They are over protective about the gaelic language and that mixed with the political power theyve amassed over the years has created a determination to keep Gaelic alive. Thats a good thing but when it raises so much discussion and it's up to its neck in Scottish politics some questions need to be asked. I dont feel like one of the anti Gaelic zealots spoken about by the West Highland Free Press and printed on the front page of the groat today but I have a determination to question the ultimate aims of this Gaelic movement in 21 century Scottish politics.
I think that's why the Gaelic lobby need challenged now. They are over protective about the gaelic language and that mixed with the political power theyve amassed over the years has created a determination to keep Gaelic alive. Thats a good thing but when it raises so much discussion and it's up to its neck in Scottish politics some questions need to be asked. I dont feel like one of the anti Gaelic zealots spoken about by the West Highland Free Press and printed on the front page of the groat today but I have a determination to question the ultimate aims of this Gaelic movement in 21 century Scottish politics.
Watch those Gaels, Gleeber, they are the New World Order.
- if a gun was put to my head and I was forced to choose which way do you think I would jump ?
I really don't know, Each - I hope it won't come to that - but if a gun was held to my head I'm certainly a Caithnessian non-Gael first, no matter how many Gaels are my friends or how much I love their music!:D
Perhaps a good start would be a letter from you, in Gaelic, to the West Highland Press to help the rest of the Gaelic world understand that we're not all a bunch of "anti-Gaelic zealots" here in Caithness - you could explain briefly the long and rich Norse culture of Caithness and how Gaels and non-Gaels have historically lived peacefully side by side in Caithness without hostility or conflict. And perhaps mention that, despite the obvious influence of the Gaels in the SE of the county, there is a NE corner of the county where there are actually NO Gaelic placenames in evidence - a wee Norse corner. All we want is acceptance that our Norse culture is different from the Gaelic culture and that it is no less valuable.
And perhaps also remind them that the crux of any perceived anti-Gaelic feeling regarding the roadsign issue is actually all about protecting the Norse identity of our placenames, not to do with devaluing the blossoming Gaelic culture in any way.
That would be a good start, Each, if you could manage it. Thanks.:)
Aaldtimer
28-Mar-09, 03:54
Oh Alex, as a newbie, be careful where you tread...
"Is this going to be extra funding from central government? If so where will it be spent? It just makes no sense to me."...
Have you not heard of the financial benefits of holding the "Whisky Olympics"?
:cool:
Sun Circle
28-Mar-09, 21:35
OK, I'm getting really fed up now. :mad: There are 7 people out there who have voted for blanket bilingual signs across Caithness. Would one of them please be courteous enough give us some idea of the logic behind your thinking?
Whether or not the folk down south want to accept it, the majority of Caithnessians are very offended by the idea of Caithness being covered in Gaelic signs. Our councillors are representing us, just as they should. That councillor in Skye who called our councillors anti-Gaelic zealots is well out of line. Has the western isles abandoned democracy in favour of some kind of Gaelic dictatorship?
To the Gaelic Mafia - if you think Caithness is a thorn in your side, just wait until you try putting up the Gaelic signs in Aberdeenshire, the heart of the Doric language (which is, I believe, part of the Gaelic Plan - for Gaelic signs to be put up throughout Scotland, not just the Highlands).
Its just plain ridiculous - I can't understand why you want to place Gaelic signs across the whole of Caithness (indeed, across the whole of Scotland!), trashing the amazing cultural diversity and replacing it with a mono-block Gaelic whitewash - can't you see how crazy that is?
My understanding of the Gaelic Plan (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is not just to add Gaelic placenames on the trunk road network, but to include a Gaelic alternative on every name-sign as you come into every town and village. And beyond that, is it true that the Gaelic plan intends every streetname to have a Gaelic alternative? You are not just shoving it in our faces, you are sacking our culture to its very roots. Many streetnames are named after well-known people (English speakers and Caithness Dialect speakers alike) who have done great works for our community. To add a Gaelic version to these signs is beyond offensive - it is a desecration of their memory.
Surely you guys must realise by now that you are shooting yourselves in the foot by following this through. It won't encourage people to learn Gaelic, it will just create a anti-Gaelic movement where none existed before. By trashing our history and culture you are declaring war - you are shoving Gaelic in our faces without a thought for our community, history or heritage. How can that be good for the Gaels?
All I can assume is that the MSPs voted the Gaelic Plan through without reading it, they must have thought it was some wee plan for the Western Isles that wouldn't matter to them or their constituents. They obviously didn't realise that it was actually a crazy masterplan for Gaelic to overwrite Scottish history and eventually take over the entire universe. If they had bothered to read it before signing up, the MSPs would have realised that even the Martians will be speaking Gaelic by 2030 ! :lol:
Because Caithness is part of the Highlands we are the first (but far from the last!) thorn in their side... it is our duty to alert the rest of Scotland to this madness before it gets too far - what a colossal waste of money that could be much better spent in promoting Gaelic language classes, Gaelic language nurseries and schools, or Gaelic music and cultural promotion. There are so many things you could spend the money on to promote Gaelic without offending the non-Gaelic community.
So someone, please, please, please, explain the madness that has led us here to this non-sensical policy of Gaelic signage across non-Gaelic areas of Scotland?
So someone, please, please, please, explain the madness that has led us here to this non-sensical policy of Gaelic signage across non-Gaelic areas of Scotland?
Well part of the problem was your speed to jump into bed with the first Gael who seemed to be open to a little movement. I'm glad to see your hackles are raising and perhaps caithness might just be a county too far for these faceless Gaels whose power will be the destruction of them.
As someone who has been waiting 18 months for a new street sign only to be told that "you will have to wait until the Gaelic debate is over before we can order a new one" I find it hard to stomach all this nonsence.
Order new signs now and forget this bilingual crap.
Any spare money left in the signs budget, why not use it to repair the roads North of Inverness!
Aaldtimer
29-Mar-09, 03:52
This is becoming a bit hysterical!
Can we be clear on some things:
Doric is a dialect, not a language.
The Caithness dialect is just that, a dialect, a version of Scots, not Norse.
GetWithTheTimes
29-Mar-09, 07:30
to be completely honest i am sick of this pro-gaelic rubbish
there isnt a pro scandinavian thing going on trying to force norse language over any of the western places
no pro-polish for all the polish people who work here
no pro-chinese for all the chinese people
no pro- indian/afghan for all the indian and afghan people who work here
no russian, american, french, german, dutch, or any other type of pro-anything trying to force their language into our schools or plaster our place with signs they can read and WHY because like gaels they all read english in fact most of the above probably know less english than the gaels so why should the gaels have any reason to hold themselves above the rest of the people and demand what the larger minorities dont get???
we want we want we want, we have the right to have signs get a grip and stop wasting councilors time and money on signs you dont need and yes you DONT need them you can read english so make do like the LARGER LESS WELL ENGLISH SPOKEN MINORITIES DO and stop acting like little kids and greeting coz you want different signs than the rest of the country and acting up and all wowes me because the mass majority of others dont agree
This is becoming a bit hysterical!
The Caithness dialect is just that, a dialect, a version of Scots, not Norse.
Okay, I think we are getting clear on a few things here - the instinctive feeling that most people have here in Caithness against having Gaelic signposts is very strong and can be culturally justified. Ignoring it will NOT help the Gaelic cause and has the potential to do great damage to what, historically, has been a good relationship between these two neighbouring, Scottish, cultures.
The Caithness Dialect and Doric are both Norse-origin versions of the Scots language - there's no denying that. They are both worth valuing just as much as Gaelic is and, I suspect, are spoken daily by as many people than speak Gaelic if you're looking at national percentages. Certainly they have more "native speakers" and fewer learners than Gaelic.
Almost surprisingly under these circumstances, it seems from the poll that quite a high number of non-Gael Caithness folk could perhaps tolerate Gaelic signs for placenames of Gaelic origin in the county. This should be viewed as a positive by both sides and is certainly a possible way forward.
Anti-Gaelic sign folk - you have to realise that this IS current Highland Council policy. If nothing is done, you get Gaelic signposts on ALL your Norse town names, village names, farm names and street names. So it's worth trying to be just a little bit reasonable in order to avoid that cultural disaster.
Pro-Gaelic sign folk - you have to realise that covering Caithness with Gaelic signposts is NOT a positive way of promoting Gaelic in Caithness and will end up with genuine (and understandable) anti-Gaelic feeling across the county. If you think that the folk here are already anti-Gaelic zealots, you are wrong, most of us aren't - yet. But I have to warn you that if you continue to disrespect our local culture by letting the Highland Council put Gaelic language on signs where, historically, that language does not belong, then there will be justifiable, tangible, and majority anti-Gaelic feeling in Caithness - that would be a disaster for both the promotion of Gaelic and for the Mod 2010 (which, incidentally, I am looking forward to...)
I'm just looking for an agreeable, amicable solution for Caithness and for the promotion of Gaelic - it is do-able, but it's not easy. Best of luck to our local councillors and to the Gaelic Board (I'm guessing that's the translation?) when they meet. PLEASE come up with a reasonable solution, for everyone's sake.
Now, I'm away south on holiday for a few days, so no bloodshed while I'm away, eh?;)
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.