Statin Medication [Archive] - Caithness.Org Forums

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 14:45

Just wondered how many people on here are on Statin medications and have experienced any of the symptoms listed below....

SYMPTOMS -

NO energy
Weakness
Heavy legs
Depression
Sore limbs
Anxiety
Shaking
Convulsions
Muscle wasting
Constipation
Nausea
Balance Problems
Slurred Speach
Memory problems
Psychosis
Dizziness
Changes in vision
Upset Stomach
Holes in Memory
Loss of interest in social involvement
Insomnia
Poor Co-ordination
Mental Disorder
Fatigue
Weight Loss
Thoughts of death and suicide
Suicide attempts
Difficulty concentrating

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1160796/Statins-new-NHS-wonder-drug-cutting-cholesterol-But-sinister-effects.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1160796/Statins-new-NHS-wonder-drug-cutting-cholesterol-But-sinister-effects.html#comments)

http://www.spacedoc.net/

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/searchresults.php?cx=010913664321846374563:fzhl_cf nikq&cof=FORID:9&q=statins&sa=Search#1034

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/investigate-statins/signatures.html

https://www.statineffects.com/info/adverse_effects.htm

Please check if any member of your family is on Statin medication, if they are and having any of the symptoms that I've listed then please let them read this information, then at least they can make their own educated choice as to whether to continue this medication or stop taking them. Turns out that half the UK are on these medications but thats OK as the statistics for heart attacks are dropping as now everyone is ending their life by suicide, end up in a psychiatric hospital or disability.

oldmarine

22-Mar-09, 14:54

I am on a statin medication (Crestor) and have been on statin's since 1988 when I had open heart surgery with a 4-way bypass. I since have had 4 stents placed in the main bypass (from the front-to-back of my heart). I have never experienced any of the symptoms mentioned above. In fact I believe the procedure plus medications have extended my life by several years. In addition to high cholesterol, I am a diabetic. I will be 84 years on August 23rd.

justine

22-Mar-09, 14:57

I am sure there are many out there who have felt no side effects, but heck, looking at the list i am not sure if its a cure or a hindrance.:eek:

Kodiak

22-Mar-09, 14:57

If you are on Any Medication and you read the leaflet that comes with it you will find a Long List of possible Side Effects.

Same goes if you wish to seach the internet you will find loads of pages saying that this or that particular medication has many side effects and you should stop taking it.

This is just scare mongering and no one should stop any medication before they speak to the Doctor who prescribed it.

Not everything that is posted on the internet is correct.

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 14:58

Thanks for the reply oldmarine.

Yes that what Statins are for (in my opinion), for use after heart surgery or heart attacks, not high cholesterol.

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 15:00

Yes you are right Kodiak read the makers leaflet, but read the up to date ones on the internet NOT the ones that were printed in 2005 inside the box.

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 15:02

Also read the clinical trials and Drug Analysis Reports, very interesting reading.

arana negra

22-Mar-09, 15:04

I am not on any medication so cannot comment on that bit, but for sure as Kodiak says not all you read on the interent is accurate never mind correct, anyone can post anything on the net no guarantees any of it is true.

Many possible side effects from meds can be worse than the symptons, a friend of mine always reads the side effects first then flushes down the toilet anything that might her her feel worse than how she feels at the time. Daft apeth I reckon she is always at the docs now and has many ongoing illnesses.

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 15:08

All I'm saying is go to the maker of the medications website for the The Full Prescribing & Patient Product Information

binbob

22-Mar-09, 15:43

All I'm saying is go to the maker of the medications website for the The Full Prescribing & Patient Product Information

i was put on stains when i moved here...i felt so ill and could barely walk[ pains in legs].i was very worried,then read the leaflets,made an informed choice and no longer take them.i do have a family history of hear disease[i have none that i am aware of],butn no raised cholesterol.i will never take them...........havev enough problems without medication adding to them!!!

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 15:56

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 16:08

Look at the signatures on the petition a lot of them are doctors, read their comments.

katarina

22-Mar-09, 16:12

Do not go on suffering the side effects. there are many different types of statins. the first ones I was on made me shake, so after one week the doc changed them and the ones i am on now have no side effects. I think if doc feels you need to be on them, it would be wiser to try different types until you find the right one for you, rather than just stop taking them.

binbob

22-Mar-09, 16:19

That is exactly what my poor wee mums going through! Sorry to hear that Statins did this to you too. My mum started them 7 months ago and 6 months ago she was signed off work. She has every symptom mentioned above. She is still on Statins until we see the doctor this week to educate on the dangers.

poor mum...i hope she gets sorted.it is not good when medication makes u ill ,even though u were ok before.i will take my chances...i have other major problems...a lot caused by steroids[ another story!!]

we are all going to die of something and drs. now use these prescriptions to make MONEY!!!
let me know how itb all goes.best wishes.

catran

22-Mar-09, 16:20

It would appear that statins are dished out like sweeties in this neck of the woods without much consultation. I know a cardiologist who says they should be only be prescribed to those who have suffered a severe heart attack and post open heart surgery.

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 16:28

Mum has constant shakes, been shaking for 6months. Lots of emergency trips to A&E in ambulances, lots of different doctors but yet no one has picked up on what I have since learned.

But yet this is her Full Prescribing & Patient Product Information below.

Please read the warnings and precautions....

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/z/zocor/zocor_pi.pdf

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 16:40

I have lots information that I have been now researching for days, since I found the report in the Daily Mail below....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1160796/Statins-new-NHS-wonder-drug-cutting-cholesterol-But-sinister-effects.html

764 reports of psychiatric disorders. 2069 reports of muscle disorders. 1274 reports of Nervous Systems disorders. 1160 reports of gastrointestinal disorders. - Drug Analysis Report.

Also read Dr Graveline's reports on the side effects.

The Pepsi Challenge

22-Mar-09, 16:51

Please let us know how your mother's Caithness doctor evaluates this.

golach

22-Mar-09, 16:53

I have been on Atorvastatin for many years now, with no side effects.

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 16:55

I really wanted to see my own doctor but unfortunately he is away on a course this week, but he is the only one I really trust with my health. So I don't know who I will get to listen to me.

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 16:57

Good to hear Golach, just watch out for any symptoms that might appear. You will be able to make the connections yourself.

Kodiak

22-Mar-09, 17:00

As I stated above, all this is pure Scare Mongering. No matter what medication there is you will find many web sites that claim it is bad. For everyone you can quote that states that Statins are Bad there is more than one where they state that they sre good. Here a a few examples :-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4282194.stm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article2633701.ece

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2007/October/Pages/Statinbenefitscanlastadecade.aspx

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/besttreatments/2008/nov/11/statin-drug-benefits-those-with-normal-cholesterol

http://reporter.leeds.ac.uk/press_releases/current/statins.htm

http://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/news/20081110/statin-benefits-patients-with-low-ldl-cholesterol

If you go looking for bad reports you will find them. You should also post the good reports like the above then that way you will get a balanced idea and NOT just one sided.

Lindsay Foord it sounds that you have made up your mind that Statins are bad and you need to convince everybody to think the way you do by posting only negative reports.

If you are are going to do research then you should look at everything not just what you want to look at.

Statins have helped Millions of people and I am sure they will continue to help Millions more in the future.

poppett

22-Mar-09, 17:02

OH had simvastatin and had to come off them because he couldn`t function. Turned out they were prescribed for high cholesterol (which a second blood test showed he didn`t have, the first was a false high) and once he came off them within three weeks he was ok again.

Hope your mum gets the help she needs soon.

Alice in Blunderland

22-Mar-09, 17:08

we are all going to die of something and drs. now use these prescriptions to make MONEY!!!

Wide sweeping statement there. Not all doctors make money out of statins and all their prescribing is monitered and audited constantly. :)

Can I urge anyone with worries reading anything regarding statins or any other drug on the internet to make an appointment with their GP or, contact their Consultant should you have any concerns. Talk to them and ask them questions. Dont stop taking medication without consulting your doctor. :)

Doctors DO NOT prescribe drugs without good reason.

Anyone taking information from the internet should have their spam guard set on full power.

If this was the case why not cut out the doctor google your symptoms and crack on. :Razz

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 17:12

Kodiak - I'm making people aware of what has happened to mum and hundreds of others, as I said read the leaflet on the makers of the medications website...they can't be wrong can they? They make the medication.

Please read the warnings and precautions....

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_...r/zocor_pi.pdf (http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/z/zocor/zocor_pi.pdf)

I'm not saying that no one should take Statins, quite the opposite. I know that some people needs Statins, like people who have had a heart attack or open heart surgery.

Our family have gone through complete hell for the past 6 months trying to find the cause of mums illness. I'm saying that we MAY have at last found the cause as to HER illness, not all meds have the same effect of other people.

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 17:23

Kodiak - On one of the links you posted.....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article2633701.ece

Read the comments at the bottom of the page.

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 17:29

Also read the comments at the bottoms of this page...same website link you sent.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/expert_advice/article3040430.ece

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 17:32

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3838915.stm

Please people of Caithness, make your own choice with all the information you can get your hands on.

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 17:37

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1481178.stm

:(

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 17:40

From another website Kodiak attached......

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Cholesterol-lowering-medicines-statins/Pages/Side-effects.aspx?url=Pages/whatisit.aspx

Alice in Blunderland

22-Mar-09, 17:43

As stated in a previous post yes look into things but go to your GP/ Consultant and talk to them about any fears or worries you may have thats what they are there for.

I am not saying that we arent intelectual but its knowing what information to take in and what to discard. What will be relevent to us and what not. :)

Lindsay I am sorry your mum has been so unwell and I hope that when she sees her GP/Consultant they can put her back on track.

Tell them all your worries and fears and ask them lots of questions this way you can seek reassurance from them on any medication your mum may be prescribed. :)

Kodiak

22-Mar-09, 17:48

as I said read the leaflet on the makers of the medications website...they can't be wrong can they? They make the medication.

You do not understand at all. They are required to put on any and all Possible side effects no matter what the Drug. They are advised to list all and everything for leagal reasons. Below I have listed possible side effects for a Particular Drug, I copied them from the leaflet from a new box. See if you can guess what the Drug is before your read it all :-

Nausea
Vomiting
Diarrhoea
Constipation
Hearing Loss and Disturbances
Dizzyness
Mental Confusion
Blood Disorders
Adverse Skin Reactions
Stomache Ulcers
Breathlessness
Wheezing
Other Allergic Symptoms

Sounds dreadful does it not, it must be a real powerful and nasty drug this. No not really as it is just asprin and has been used safely for countless years for countless people all over the world.

Some people are allergic to some drugs and this will always happen. But to go around stating that a particular drug is dangerous is not responsible at all.

If anyone has been prescribed a particular Drug and they are not happy with it for any reason, then they should consult their GP so that He/She can address their concerns.

sandyr

22-Mar-09, 17:55

There are several different kinds, dosages, time to take them etc etc. Find the best one for you and if you feel any of the symptoms simply stop taking them....There are numerous kinds and sometimes you get one that doesn't suit you.
You know your own body......and yes they are used for cholesterol control.
Also 'Do Not' eat Grapefruit, or anything with Grapefruit in it. One acts against the other and can make one quite sick.

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 17:57

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 18:08

I'm not here to argue with you Kodiak, you have your opinions I have mine. I just hope that if anyone else is having an adverse reaction they will be able to make the connections and read the warnings and precautions on their patient leaflet as to what chemicals they are putting in their bodies. My mum wasn't able to make the connections as her mind was gone.

I'm not saying that no one should take Statins, quite the opposite. I know that some people needs Statins, like people who have had a heart attack or open heart surgery as I said before.

Alice in Blunderland

22-Mar-09, 18:17

Thanks for your message Alice in Blunderland.

I am armed with lots of paperwork, the meds leaflet, the drug analysis report, information from Pfizer drug company and Zocor the makers of these meds, info from NHS websites, clincal trails info, information from various Dr's, surely with all the facts I have the doctors will listen.

Even without all these facts your mums doctor will listen.

I would err on caution with all the infomation you google, truly, as I have said before I am not saying that you are not intelligent but its how you take on board the information and knowing what to disregard and why.

Your Doctor will always act (in most cases im sure as with all walks of life there are one or two bad eggs you can google up) with the patients best interests he/she will also have all your mums clinical/medical history in front of him/her.

Kodiak is right in that for most medications you can google up all sorts of bad news and your mums GP /Consulatant will be aware of this. Nothing you enter the room armed with will be new news to him/her. :)

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 18:27

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 18:42

I wrote to mum's doctor back in November, dad also went to see him back in November.

3/4 weeks ago I went to see my own doctor and he advised that they all knew about mum's condition but were scratching their heads as to what was causing all of her horrendous symptoms.

binbob

22-Mar-09, 19:45

Alice in Blunderland

22-Mar-09, 20:14

sometimes at the end of the day,we have to make our very own INFORMED choices..which i have done and will continue to do.
and yes drs.DO make money from these and other drugs as well as doing blood pressure checks,diabetic checks and many other procedures.
i know this as i have 3 friends who are GP s.they are NOT liars.;)

Gps make money from lots of different places prescribing being one. Their prescribing is monitered, checked, audited.

A builder makes money from building houses so of course a Dr is going to make money from treating patients.

Drs are paid by the NHS not the drug companies. I know and I dont have 3 friends who are GPs. :lol: ;)

_Ju_

22-Mar-09, 20:39

IF you have any concerns of what is being perscribed to you you HAVE to raise those concerns with the person perscribing them. THENif you are still concerned get a second opinion. A qualified opinion. Not a quack on the internet.

binbob

22-Mar-09, 20:59

If you were right the doctors would have made the connections themselves, wouldn't they?

The information was given to me by a friend who can no longer walk properly, her damage was 4 years ago.

It's not googled up information either it's fact, as I keep saying, the drug analysis report, information from Pfizer drug company and Zocor the makers of these meds, info from NHS websites, clincal trails info etc.

I give up, all I wanted to do was make other people aware in hope that no family has to go through what we have been through. I have emailed GMTV, The Write Stuff, MP, mental health hospitals, BBC. I have done my bit now!

i remeber a case on tv last year...an airline pilot[ usa] was taking statins and ended up not being able to walk.he had to retire...the case was proven that the statins had caused the damage.

u are not going bto get some people to listen to ur fears..i think they may still see drs. as infallible........which no is.hope ur mum gets better...

binbob

22-Mar-09, 21:00

Gps make money from lots of different places prescribing being one. Their prescribing is monitered, checked, audited.

A builder makes money from building houses so of course a Dr is going to make money from treating patients.

Drs are paid by the NHS not the drug companies. I know and I dont have 3 friends who are GPs. :lol: ;)
and we all know alice that drug companies do not offer incentives to drs.???do we not!!!;)

Alice in Blunderland

22-Mar-09, 21:30

and we all know alice that drug companies do not offer incentives to drs.???do we not!!!

In the same way we should remember that the rules regarding incentives were tightened up a few years ago. No more jollys............ a few pens and some sticky note pads yip thats going to sway there decisions. ;)

Drs are human but in the same instance they have their patients best interest at heart.

Five years of university training then ten years junior hospital posts to become a consultant on average.

Five years university training then four years junior hospital posts to become a GP on average.

Why bother with all this training if at the end of the day google links forums and research papers can give someone all the information so that we can diagnose ourselves and buy the medication on line or gisregard Drs advice. :)

Next up whos for self surgery................:eek:

Munro

22-Mar-09, 22:03

I have been on statins for eleven years Simvastatin, Atorvastatin and Crestor
all at 10mg dose, only side effect that I would really put down to them is
muscle stiffness and cramp, I am also taking water tablet daily, Atenolol and low dose aspirin so these could also cause side effects, I was suffering with Angina, I have not had an attack in these eleven years, give me the side effects anytime over an eternity of nothing.

domino

22-Mar-09, 22:28

have taken Simvastatin. Sure they have their uses but the side effects can be something else.My dosage was increased with some unfortunate side effects and the drug has now been stopped. My doctor assures me that there are alternatives,but, I will wait and see

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 22:36

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 22:38

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2003/12/13/statin_drugs_coenzyme_q10_depletion.htm

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 22:40

What we WILL be doing for mum is getting her on grapeseed extract and Coenzyme Q10

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 22:41

Read the Safety bit on adverse effects....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statins

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 22:44

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/statinalert/

Alice in Blunderland

22-Mar-09, 22:55

Thanks for your messages binbob, munro and domino, maybe someone will take note and listen eh.

Statins are more dangerous than Thalidomide. (http://www.redflagsweekly.com/kendrick/2004_june17.html) We Are Sleep-Walking Into What Could Become A Major Medical Disaster Because Statin Drugs Will Soon Be Sold Over-The-Counter

Lindsay have you asked for a second oppinion, or for your mum to be refferred on to another doctor. :)

Honestly for as many people who agree with a statin you will find those who dont.

Open heart surgery is an option offerred to many patients some survive the operation and go on to lead a normal life others dont make it off the operating table............... what works for one doesnt always work for another.

Moira

22-Mar-09, 23:04

Lindsay, I know several people who take statins and suffer none of the adverse reactions which you have mentioned. I can understand your concern and frustration regarding your Mum's ill-health and can totally sympathise. I really hope the research of your facts and consultation with your Mum's/your own GP brings about the best of results for your Mum and that she is restored to full health soon.

As others on this thread have mentioned, however, a sense of proportion and balance is required. The side-effects listed on the most common medications would cause the majority of folk to put them straight in the bin if they read them too literally.

The best thing for anyone suffering adverse effects after taking new medication is (as oft written on the label) :-
Cease taking the medication and consult your GP asap.

The best thing for anyone not suffering adverse effects after taking new medication is :-
Continue taking your prescribed medication and maintain your scheduled review appointments with your GP. If you have any questions/concerns in the meantime, make an appointment with your GP.

Btw Lindsay welcome to Caithness.org. :)

Alice in Blunderland

22-Mar-09, 23:07

binbob

22-Mar-09, 23:12

Alice in Blunderland

22-Mar-09, 23:15

lindsay..do not give up....they are a disaster awaiting in the wings.

Medical oppinion or googled................... ;) :lol:

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 23:23

I think my mum has seen most doctors in Caithness now (a few have been called out of hours etc). NOT one has picked up on what I have, completely shocking to me as she has been on them 7 months. Although in saying that there was a doctor she seen from Wick back in January that we called out one Sunday and he said to stop the tablets but when mum went back to her GP they advised to keep taking them? She was a well woman before starting Statins.

Why are none of you fully reading my links?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-430928/Statins-wont-prevent-women-getting-heart-disease-claim-doctors.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-430682/Have-conned-cholesterol.html

http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book/companion.asp?id=29&compID=116

http://www.heart-health-for-life.com/coenzyme-q10.html

http://www.whp-apsf.ca/pdf/statinsEvidenceCaution.pdf

Health professionals are now questioning the medications they have been handing out so the daily mail are saying. The petition link I posted early has MANY doctors signatures, again why are you questioning me without reading?

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/investigate-statins/signatures.html

As I say again and again, PLEASE just read and make your own choice as to whether to take any medication. Don't slate me for trying to help others not go through what we are going through.

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 23:25

I will NEVER give up, she's my mum and it's breaking my heart to see what's left of her. :( I HAVE to get her off them before I lose her completely!

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 23:29

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 23:30

Did I also mention that mum lost 3 stone in 3 month?

Moira

22-Mar-09, 23:36

Did I also mention that mum lost 3 stone in 3 month?

No you didn't but I've known some people to lose 4 stones in 2 months. They were not on statins and they are are fine now. Are you determined to be alarmist?

Alice in Blunderland

22-Mar-09, 23:36

Lindsay I applaud your determination and care for your mum. :)

You have as can be seen spent a lot of time on the internet looking into this. I admire your determination and hard work .

Can I ask you to once again sit with the doctor/ hospital consultant if she has been referred onto one and explain all your worries and fears.

No one is taking the mickey or having a go, you are genuinely concerned and grasping at what you see as the root cause of your mums demise.

Ask him /her to explaim why he /she thinks your mum should be taking this drug ask all the questions you want to know the answer to and ask him/her about the research you have done.

If you are not satisfied ask for a second oppinion. Keep asking questions.

There has been lots of research into this drug much, much, more than you are showing links to. :)

When are you going to the Dr ? the sooner the better to allay some of your fears or at least address them. :)

Alice in Blunderland

22-Mar-09, 23:45

Thank you Alice In Blunderland I didn't know about NICE, just checked their website and found....

3.3 Adverse events associated with statins include headache, altered liver
function, paraesthesia and gastrointestinal effects (including abdominal pain,
flatulence, diarrhoea, nausea and vomiting). Rash and hypersensitivity
reactions have been reported but are rare. Muscle effects (myalgia, myositis
and myopathy) have also been reported with the use of statins. Severe
muscle damage (rhabdomyolysis) is a very rare but significant side effect.
Further adverse events are associated with individual statins. For full details
of adverse effects, contraindications and interactions, see the Summaries of
Product Characteristics.

Lindsay you have concentrated on the bad news in this. This drug has passed all the checks for use.

Adverse reactions happen with every drug its the downside of the upside you could say.

Many esteem Drs, Consultants, Proffessors sit on these boards approving drugs..............Have they all got it so wrong. I dont think so. :)

Lindsay Foord

22-Mar-09, 23:46

Are these people all wrong too....?

http://www.topix.com/forum/health/cholesterol/T5SVQAR01MQV5ORED

I give up, I'm off to bed!

ShelleyCowie

23-Mar-09, 00:42

Lindsay, reading through this, i can see the great concern for your mother and i wish you all the best.

I have never had anything such as statin meds.

There is not alot of drugs i can take due to my asthma being pretty bad (even asprin) But at one point i was on 36 tablets a day. I was not sure why the doctor was handing me out so much tablets, but that was a personal experience.

All the best to your mum.

Shelley

Lindsay Foord

23-Mar-09, 01:20

Shelly I'd like to thank you for your time, very much appreciated.

Yes I'm stil awake, still searching the internet for my own information....

I think you all need to see the report from the BMJ, British Medical Journal....

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/332/7553/1330?ijkey=XhTeJopzPkacsS2&keytype=ref

I don't think anyone realises the seriousness of it all until they are in this situation.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/4974840/Wonder-drug-that-stole-my-memory.html - read all the poor peoples comments at the bottom of this one, surely we all can’t be wrong?

Clinical trails below -

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/InfoSheets/HCP/simvastatin_amiodaroneHCP.htm

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/simvastatin_amiodarone/default.htm

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=statins&cond=%22Hydroxymethylglutaryl-CoA+Reductase+Inhibitors%22&pg=1

piratelassie

23-Mar-09, 01:33

The first ones I was on made me feel ill so stopped them and went back to doctor and got (the more expensive ones the goverment dont want to dish out because of cost) and I am ok on them.

oldmarine

23-Mar-09, 01:44

It is advisable to get second opinions. My physician gave up his practice and I had to find another. My new physician, by checking my blood test, found I had a high level of potassium which was causing my defective heart to race. My new physician had me discontinue 3 different medications to measure the affect. I was later told to start taking one of the three that I had quit taking. I am currently being closely monitored.

Lindsay Foord

23-Mar-09, 01:56

Hit the nail on the head there piratelassie, its all about multi billions the drug companies are making. Sick people are worth more money than to heal them without making a penny! Statins are the new NHS wonder drug. But do they have sinister side effects?

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2004/12/13/focus1.html

http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/index.php/t-299861.html

It's the same with the advertising about global warming, all scare mongering to make more multi billions.....sad sad sad!

Fran

23-Mar-09, 03:03

I have been on one statin at nightime for years to prevent me from getting high cholestrol, but i have not been on the same one. I know one has been stopped and that was why mine was changed. It is a very expensive drug and can now be purchased over the counter without prescription.

JAWS

23-Mar-09, 04:14

Another day, another panic. :roll: Read the leaflet in any packet of drugs and you will see an almost identical list of possible side effects.
As with many other things, once a list of possible problems has been circulated somebody somewhere will decide that they are the subject of at least one of those problems if not all of them.

There is absolutely no need to panic over what is nothing other than yet another scare story.
If you are prescribed statins by your GP then it will be for a very good reason. If you suspect you are suffering any side effects from taking them then the answer will not be found by trawling the Web for scare stories. Go back to your GP. explain what you suspect and take advice from him/her and
if necessary, ask for a blood test.

Doctors are generally aware of the possibility of and serious side effects such as possible organ failure and will arrange for any necessary preventative checks to be made.
If in doubt consult a professional and if necessary ask for a second opinion. The last thing to do is to act on spurious newspaper reports or on the advice of the many Serious Rumour Outlets on the Web.

You can, of course, treat your doctor as a complete moron who is totally incompetent but in that case why would you be taking any of the medication you were prescribed in the first place.
Everybody has the choice as to whether they go to a doctor or not so if you don’t think they are capable of giving you the correct medication why bother going in the first place? Personally I would rather place my faith in a Doctor I know and trust rather than a piece of hysteria printed in the press simply to sell copy.

Lindsay Foord

23-Mar-09, 08:15

Lindsay Foord

23-Mar-09, 08:29

Read the doctors reports on their findings of this medication......

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/332/7553/1330#134931

Alice in Blunderland

23-Mar-09, 09:46

I would like to know....where are doctors getting their information from??

British Medical Journal? Obviously NOT!

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/332/7553/1330?ijkey=XhTeJopzPkacsS2&keytype=ref

Clinical trials? Obviously not, so where IS the information coming from that is making doctors believe?

The doctors in the present era are using Evidence Based Medicine. :D

It means they look into all the current evidence. In the medical world the gold standard of evidence is RCTs (Randomised Controlled Trials). You could look at Heart Protection Study and SPARCL trials if you want to keep on googling. These show very powerful evidence that statins prolong lives of heart disease patients and stroke patients. The mechanisms of statins is not only cholestrol lowering but also its potent anti thrombotic effects.

The British Medical Journal is not the best peer reviewed journal. There are others which are peer ( Doctors all over the world accept it ) reviewed world wide such as The New England Journal of Medicine.

Do you wish a meeting face to face with someone who knows all about this and bring all questions and googled sites and anything else into this meeting for discussion. It can be arranged. Anyone interested send a pm.

Needing any further explanations will be back tonight.

None of the above googled all read over many years of study.

If you want a list of sites with good information pm for more. :)

binbob

23-Mar-09, 10:41

Read the doctors reports on their findings of this medication......

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/332/7553/1330#134931

lindsay..u are fighting a losing battle here....please take mum to dr. ,listen,then between u all ,make a choice to have or have not.

i would not waste any more time here on the subject....u have given ur time and effort ,but at the end of the day....please use ur own judgement about ur mum taking statins.
i decided not to have them ,my neighbours came off them too and another friend did also.

drs. do not know about everything....i have had judgements made by drs. that were so wrong,so now i decide with their advice what i will do.
i really wish ur poor mum better,but perhaps there is something else going on also.i hope not...please let me know how she gets on.
best wishes.

loganbiffy

23-Mar-09, 11:07

Everybody reacts differently to different drugs FACT.
Whether it be medicinal drugs or recreational drugs, everbody has different genes.
From reading up about Statins, some people are fine on them and some people are not, which doesn't really surprise me, as I said, everyone reacts differently to drugs.

Juts puzzles me that there is always new "Wonder drugs" being made available, I mean you didn't see people being treated for high cholesterol 30 years ago.
Drug companies are in it to make money as far as I'm concerned, but hey this is just one guys opinion.

binbob

23-Mar-09, 11:56

Colin Manson

23-Mar-09, 15:11

Lindsay you have concentrated on the bad news in this. This drug has passed all the checks for use.

Adverse reactions happen with every drug its the downside of the upside you could say.

Many esteem Drs, Consultants, Proffessors sit on these boards approving drugs..............Have they all got it so wrong. I dont think so. :)

Other experts would say the whole system is wrong.

This documentary for instance : Food Matters:

An interview with the producer - Google Video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9048107482669116244)

Maybe we place too much faith in medicine and not enough in nutrition. :roll:

Alice in Blunderland

23-Mar-09, 15:19

Juts puzzles me that there is always new "Wonder drugs" being made available, I mean you didn't see people being treated for high cholesterol 30 years ago.
Drug companies are in it to make money as far as I'm concerned, but hey this is just one guys opinion.

Medicine is continually advancing.

Conditions are now being diagnosed that were never able to have been 30 years ago.Medications are being researched and developed now that you would never have dreamed off being available years ago. :)

Drugs companies do make profits there is no denying that. They are also researching and developing medicines that are helping to keep many patients alive today that would be dead and yes unfortunately some drugs react differently in people.

What is the answer ?? stop researching and developing drugs and stop making money. :eek:

By gawd there are so many medical experts on here these days Im surprised the Drs around here have any patients left.

If in doubt go and speak to your GP ask his advice and take it from there.

If anyone reading these posts today took seriously ill and I mean seriously ill tomorrow whats the first thing your going to do....................Google it ;) Im sure. Lift the phone and see the doctor would be the most likely answer.

rich

23-Mar-09, 15:22

Colin is absolutely on target. Statin medfications play a vital role in the prevention of heart disease and stroke. If your physician prescribes them - take as directed. Do not fool around with alternative therapies. Watch your diet and exercise very day, take your medicine as presctibed and establish a good relationship with your doctor.
I work for the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada and that's what we tell people to do.
Come visit us:

www.heartandstroke.ca

Alice in Blunderland

23-Mar-09, 15:31

loganbiffy

23-Mar-09, 15:39

Medicine is continually advancing.

Conditions are now being diagnosed that were never able to have been 30 years ago.Medications are being researched and developed now that you would never have dreamed off being available years ago. :)

As i said, it's only my opinion and I'm entitled to it.
Personally if I started feeling ill after being prescribed medication I would stop it immediately, but then again that is my choice.

I am not suggesting for a minute for anyone to stop taking medication they have been prescribed, I never once said that, everyone has their own choice to make.
Plenty of doctors who have been in the profession for years lose the passion and stop caring, it happens, same as any profession.

It's a money driven industry is all I'm saying, it's all about profit margins, I mean the government control what Recreational drugs come into the country, they ain't exactly subtle about it either ;)

Alice in Blunderland

23-Mar-09, 15:43

Plenty of doctors who have been in the profession for years lose the passion and stop caring, it happens, same as any profession.

At this point then they should step back and rethink their career or consider retirement. :) IMHO ;)

Colin Manson

23-Mar-09, 15:49

Colin is absolutely on target. Statin medfications play a vital role in the prevention of heart disease and stroke. If your physician prescribes them - take as directed. Do not fool around with alternative therapies.

Rich,

I assume that you didn't actually watch the interview; it's actually about using food as the therapy and 'anti' prescription drugs.

The statistics for drug side effects are pretty sobering at best, shocking in reality.

Cheers
Colin

loganbiffy

23-Mar-09, 16:02

At this point then they should step back and rethink their career or consider retirement. :) IMHO ;)

I absolutely agree Alice. But we all know the wages are too good for doctors ;)

binbob

23-Mar-09, 16:48

Medical oppinion or googled................... ;) :lol:

after suffering ...in my opinion,then.;)

binbob

23-Mar-09, 16:50

Alice in Blunderland

23-Mar-09, 17:21

I absolutely agree Alice. But we all know the wages are too good for doctors ;)
So is their retirement pension............:eek:

Alice in Blunderland

23-Mar-09, 17:24

any one at any time in any profession,can and do get things wrong.................

There would seem then by this a lot of Consultants, Doctors, Proffessors etc are getting it wrong then...........:confused and one of the few who seems to have caught on to this is now trying to google up all the answers. Why dont these doctors refer to good old google then?

Not to mention the Pharmacists who willingly dispense these drugs..:)

Alice in Blunderland

23-Mar-09, 17:27

after suffering ...in my opinion,then.;)

I suffer diahorea :eek: but dont proffess to be knowledgeable in this field as to why it happens..............although there is a good drug out there to help. ;) Ooops with side effects.

loganbiffy

23-Mar-09, 17:35

I ain't saying that Statins are bad for everyone and they obviously have benefits for a lot of people.
There is no getting away from the fact that they do have terrible side effects, which they do state in thier own precautions.
As i said before, everyone reacts differently to different drugs.

binbob

23-Mar-09, 17:43

I suffer diahorea :eek: but dont proffess to be knowledgeable in this field as to why it happens..............although there is a good drug out there to help. ;) Ooops with side effects.

u are also a pain the neck who thinks she knows all the answer....go away...;)

Alice in Blunderland

23-Mar-09, 17:47

u are also a pain the neck who thinks she knows all the answer....go away...;)

SHE............... :eek:

Alice in Blunderland

23-Mar-09, 18:35

In all fairness this debate highlights the need for anyone who is in any way concerned about the medication they are taking to go back to the person who prescribed it and talk their fears and worries over with them.:)

catran

23-Mar-09, 18:45

Statins appear to be the wonder drug at the moment alongside steroids and morphine related substances.

Drs have a terribly stressful job to do. Imagine all the people they see in a day listening to all the different ailments whether serious or paltry, how on earth do they find the time (or the inclination) to follow up all these cases.

It must be a nerve wracking job with the thought of getting sued lurking at the back of their minds. How can one prove someone has not got a sore back and needs sticks and disability allowances?

I expect blood tests will diagnose the cholestral levels and from what one can gather every second person has statins prescribed.so surely that indicates not all well with this generations diet???? and lifestyle???

Lindsay Foord

23-Mar-09, 19:29

Thanks for that link Richard, what I have found from that website is...

Medication type: Statins
These drugs block an enzyme in your liver that is required to make cholesterol. As a result, your liver makes less cholesterol and picks up LDL “bad” cholesterol from your bloodstream. These drugs are very effective and lower LDL-cholesterol by up to 55%. They are the most widely prescribed cholesterol lowering medication.

While the frequency of side effects with these medications is generally very low, headache, muscle pain and weakness, and high liver enzymes may occur. Your doctor may do a simple blood test after
starting statin therapy to rule out any serious side-effects.

Ruth McPherson, MD, Phd, FRCPC
Heart and Stroke Foundation Researcher

Lindsay Foord

23-Mar-09, 20:25

Dr. Gau: Statins work directly in the liver. There is a system in our liver that produces cholesterol. Cholesterol is necessary in our body, and the statin mechanism, it creates bile — it's one of the mechanisms of bile creation — and bile is necessary in our digestion and absorption. So the liver makes cholesterol to make this happen. It can also remove cholesterol from the blood for this purpose. Statins work by attacking in the liver the enzyme system that produces cholesterol in the liver. And that forces the liver cells to pull it from the blood and thereby lowers your cholesterol. And so our cholesterol comes down because we stop the production in the liver.
Rich Dietman: Statins, as you said, very, very effective. If not a wonder drug, then certainly a class of drugs, that's been, it sounds like, has either prolonged lives or saved lives, but there are side effects, as you say. Talk a little bit more about those. What are some of the more prominent side effects in taking statins?
Dr. Gau: The side effect of statins, primarily in the office practice is myalgia.
Rich Dietman: Which is?
Dr. Gau: Which is an aching in our muscles, where the muscles just hurt when you walk. If the myalgia gets more severe, when you squeeze your muscles with your hands, it hurts. A lot of people find they can't climb stairs, they feel they've lost their energy, and they do a little exercise and their muscles keep on hurting after they finish. It's an effect on the muscle that is producing this by the statin. This is probably in the range, by the literature from the trials, of 1 to 5 percent. The clinic in my office, I would guess, it's closer to 10 percent to 15 percent of patients, maybe more. Other side effects are less common.It can cause nausea, stomach upset, some people get bowel disturbance, either constipation or diarrhea, you can get different drug reactions that occur. These are enhanced with increasing age. If you have a smaller body mass, a small frame,you tend to have more of these side effects as well.
Rich Dietman: What about memory loss? Is that an issue?
Dr. Gau: Memory loss is an interesting one. It's been looked at in several different ways. In case-control studies, when they followed these studies, they found that there appeared to be less progression of dementia, or cognitive loss of function, in people that were on statins vs. not on statins. However, when it was looked at in two big clinical trials — the heart protection study done in England, which is 20,000 patients, and the PROSPER study done in this country, in older patients — they found when they looked at the older patients in these two studies, that there was no difference between cognitive loss or dementia.
Rich Dietman: Well, I was also going to say, as I get older, my muscles naturally seem to be achier and I forget things more and all that sort of thing, so how do you sort that out?
Dr. Gau: It is hard. What I tell patients that come in that tell me that they are finding it difficult when they walk, that their muscles start hurting, and they sit down and it goes away after a while, and they get up and do it again and it's back, I say "Take a holiday from the statin drug." You stop this drug for 10 days, two weeks in time, and these symptoms all go away. You can then reintroduce the drug and produce it again and they know what they're looking for. It isn't that they're getting older, and it's usually a nice surprise for them when they find, "Oh my God, I feel normal again."
Rich Dietman: So what do you do then for them?
Dr. Gau: You can try other agents. Some statins will do it where another statin might not, although there generally is a lot of crossover. If one does it, the next one will do it too.
Rich Dietman: If I'm taking statins, you talked about liver enzyme tests, would I expect to have a routine set of blood tests?
Dr. Gau: It is recommended that before you start, we do get a baseline liver test. An AST is usually the one that is used, and this test is a simple liver test and a blood test that tells you whether your liver's having a problem or not. After you start a statin, we usually check that again at the first blood draw, six weeks to three months out. And if that remains normal, there's really not an indication you have to keep on measuring this. If I go up on the dose, I will recheck it again just to make sure that the new dose is not doing this.
Rich Dietman: If you're treating me with statins, and I know you've told me that there could be side effects, what are the side effects that you'd want me to get in touch with you right away on and others that could wait?
Dr. Gau: Every patient that we see, we tell them about the myalgia. I tell them that if they notice in doing routine, everyday activities, if their muscles start aching or they're aware that they're losing function in terms of being unable to climb stairs or be physically active or with their exercise, because I want everybody I'm treating here to be exercising. If they're aware that their muscles hurt longer after they exercise, then they should call me and let me know. I tell them, actually, to stop the statin and then call me. When you stop the statin, it takes about a week to 10 days for these symptoms to dissipate and usually the patient by that time will tell me, "I couldn't believe how much better I feel." And then we talk about what else we can do here, whether we're going to try another statin. If they're at a high dose, sometimes they'll tolerate a lower dose in combination with another agent, and there are several other agents that can be used.
Rich Dietman: Can I get rid of my side effects, if I have them, by taking coenzyme Q10?
Dr. Gau: That is a very popular belief. Remember I said in the liver where it attacks this enzyme, HMG-CoA reductase, the enzyme that leads to production of cholesterol, with our desired effect at lowering cholesterol. One of the other things that is dropped is coenzyme Q10, called ubiquinol. So they have a name for it, it's down there with the cholesterol, on another pathway that is also blocked by statins. When you start a statin, your coenzyme Q10 level in your blood drops by 50 percent. We've tried, in terms of replacing coenzyme Q10, limited studies are done on this, not a lot, no big trials, but we find that even though we give it back, this ratio sometimes does not change. It doesn't seem to have any effect on the myalgia. It is being recommended across the country over-the-counter, because coenzyme Q10 is not a prescription drug. Because of that, people take it over-the-counter and they use it, and it's being heavily marketed that if you're on a statin you should be on this, but there's no good trials, and there's no evidence that coenzyme Q10 changes the myalgia effect. So, in answer to your question, should you take it, I don't have any problem with a patient taking it, but they need to understand that coenzyme Q10 is not regulated by anybody.
Rich Dietman: Anything else that you can think of that we didn't cover that's important that we should talk about?
Dr. Gau: Well, one of the things that I get asked by my patients all the time is this thing about grapefruit juice. Statins are denatured in the liver by a system called the cytochrome P450 system. It's an enzyme system that breaks the statin down and eliminates it. In our liver, that same enzyme system is used for denaturing a whole lot of other things, and one of them is grapefruit. And so when you have a pathway that you take a lot of grapefruit juice and that pathway's busy breaking it down, you take a statin, the statin doesn't get broken down, your dose stays high in the blood. You get a bigger effect for the dose you're taking, maybe even twice, and therefore you can have more likely problems with myalgia and other symptoms because the dose is up. In the study that was done, you had to take a whole quart of grapefruit juice to get this effect.
Rich Dietman: A day?
Dr. Gau: Yeah, at once. And the statin was taken at the same time that you took the grapefruit. If you have a half a grapefruit in the morning and take your statin at night, it's not going to cause any problem for you; our liver's able to handle that without any trouble. I tell people that, yes this was done, it's in the literature, it's actually in the drug information when you read it, says avoid grapefruit juice, and then studies showed 1 quart of grapefruit juice. I have never met anybody that drinks a quart of grapefruit juice. But I tell people if they want to use grapefruit, they should know that they shouldn't take it at the same time as their statin because it will increase the dose effect. So I tell people, don't get concerned about the grapefruit, just don't drink a quart of it. And don't take it when you take your statin. Take your grapefruit in the morning and statin at night. If you do that, it's not a problem. But that's a common question asked by patients.
Rich Dietman: Well, thanks very much, Dr. Gau.
We've been talking with Dr. Gerald Gau, cardiologist and an expert in cholesterol management at Mayo Clinic. Dr. Gau is also medical editor at Mayo Clinic.com. I'm your host, Rich Dietman.

Lindsay Foord

23-Mar-09, 20:26

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/statin-drugs/CL00035

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/statins/AN01360

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/statin-side-effects/MY00205

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/rhabdomyolysis/AN01413

sandyr

23-Mar-09, 21:16

Am in agreement except if you feel/experience any of the warning signs. If so see you Dr. asap and if you are unable to within a few days, stop the Meds. A toxicity can build up/ I have a friend who it happened to and it made him very ill. Blood tests are important every few months until you can get the correct dosage.........

Lindsay Foord

23-Mar-09, 21:36

Get BBC 2 on folks ;o)

Alice in Blunderland

23-Mar-09, 21:40

Lindsay I notice that you are still googling away. I note your reluctance to take up the offer of a frank question and answer session from someone who has an in depth knowledge of said statins. :)

Lindsay Foord

23-Mar-09, 21:40

My choices for mum would be to start taking co-enzyme 10, grapeseed extract and fish oils with EPA and DHA

Lindsay Foord

23-Mar-09, 23:00

We have an appointment on Wednesday.

Lindsay Foord

23-Mar-09, 23:21

MHRA - Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency - the UK's Drug Licensing Authority? Maybe we should be reading their reports?

Or maybe the Royal Pharmaceutical Society for Great Britain.

catran

23-Mar-09, 23:21

Well Lindsay hope all goes well with your appointment and 10/10 for your trawling of the internet for answers. I think under the crcumstances you have done very well indeed and hope your mum gets the treatment that is required to bring her back to good health.

Anne x

24-Mar-09, 01:20

To Be Honest I found this thread a bit distressing well tbh a lot distressing and I was worried sick for 48hrs and very confused
Someone very close to me had just been put on Statins and when I questioned why was told My cholesterol is not high my reply
So why are you taking Statins ? considering 3 weeks ago I didnt know what a statin was and then after a explanation believed it was treatment for high cholesterol only
I still have not a scooby but all will be revealed tmr as I have made a appt to find out why and wherefores

All drugs have side effects I myself in my teens was on massive doses of Steroids causing me allsorts of problems in later life and loads of heartache but to quote my 84 old dad if I hadnt had the drugs then I woulna be hear to tell the tale

Lindsay Foord

24-Mar-09, 02:03

Alice in Blunderland -

I'd be happy to accept the offer of a frank question and answer session from someone who has an in depth knowledge.

Did you read the reports that I mentioned?

MHRA - Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency - the UK's Drug Licensing Authority

Or the Royal Pharmaceutical Society for Great Britain.

dafi

24-Mar-09, 02:15

I have been on simvistatin for the last 6 or 7 years. With out them and my other medication i would have pegged out long ago. As i understand it the main danger of long term exposure is to the liver funtion. I have six monthly bloods done to keep track of it.

Over the first few years i went through loads of different meds to try and reach an equlibrium and keep my blood flowing. A hell of a lot of them reacted badly with me and i had a wide range of problems most of which were written large on the warning sheets of the drug boxes. It worked out in the end but it was a rough go for a while.

I would urge folks to stick with it if you are having problems and work it out with your GP. They are there to help you. If you dont understand have them explain things to you so you do. If you have fears about your treatment then tell them. Your GP would rather thake time to allay your fears than have you wandering about under stress.

This thread may put up some interesting info and good points but dont let it put you off getting propper medical advice!!

Fran

24-Mar-09, 02:21

Metalattakk

24-Mar-09, 02:46

************************************************** ***
Maybe as in my case, your friend was put on statins to stop them having high cholestol levels,, which will then prevent them from having a heart attack.

I take Simvastatin daily, as part of my consultant's combative scheme to hopefully avoid me suffering major heart problems in the future. As a type 1 diabetic for 33 years now, things like cholesterol levels and blood pressure levels are immensely important, and anything that can help in the long run is to be wholly encouraged.

My Father-In Law was prescribed the same statin as I take, but had a bad reaction to it (it was something that only showed up in blood tests, he didn't notice anything untoward himself) and his medical team switched him on to the more expensive alternative immediately, and he's had no further problems since.

Lindsay Foord, I'm far from convinced that your Mum's condition has been directly caused by statins, no matter the web-based 'evidence' you produce. I can understand your concern though.

Margaret M.

24-Mar-09, 04:12

Lindsay, you are doing what everyone should do before taking a prescription medication, particularly one that comes with the possibility of some serious side effects. Prescription medications are one of the leading causes of death so it is always wise to do one's own research on any medication a doctor prescribes. The Internet is a wonderful source of information -- most of us are smart enough to discern between a credible source and a dubious one.

I am including a link to an article on statins by Dr. John McDougall and no, Alice in Blunderland, I did not have to google to find it, I have known Dr. John and his wife, Mary, for a number of years. He has been practicing for around 40 years and unlike most doctors, he writes a prescription only as a last resort. If I ever have a serious health problem, I would consult with him before anyone else.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/may/statins.htm

Colin, I have the Food Matters DVD -- it's a real eye-opener. We are what we eat and so many diseases can be controlled/cured by adjusting the diet but it takes less time to write a prescription than to discuss nutrition.

Margaret M.

24-Mar-09, 04:54

The British Medical Journal is not the best peer reviewed journal. There are others which are peer ( Doctors all over the world accept it ) reviewed world wide such as The New England Journal of Medicine.

Unfortunately, studies can not be taken at face value. Here is a closer look at the statin study published in the New England Journal of Medicine. Link is below.

Today’s (November 10, 2008) front page headlines worldwide announced a simple test called “highly sensitive C-reactive protein” (HS-CRP) and the most powerful cholesterol-lowering statin currently on the market, Crestor (rosuvastatin), used together, could cut the risk of heart attacks, strokes, and death from cardiovascular disease in half. For the casual reader, Crestor appears to be a miracle treatment with few risks and reasonable costs. Today’s publication adds to the belief of a growing number of experts that “statins are so wonderful that they should be added to our drinking water” (like fluoride).

For this study nearly 90,000 people were examined, and most of them were identified as being at increased risk for a heart attack, stroke, and/or premature death. Rather than choosing professionalism and treating the underlying causes of their health problems: their diet and lifestyle; these researchers chose commercialism; creating the most effective pharmaceutical advertising campaign ever devised. And they have succeeded.

The study was funded by the maker of the drug, AstraZeneca, and the lead author, Paul M Ridker MD, is listed as a co-inventor on patents held by Brigham and Women's Hospital related to the use of HS-CRP for the evaluation of a patient’s risk of heart disease.

Profits Are Determining Medical Care
The cost of Crestor (rosuvastatin) is about $3.45 per day—much higher than that of generic statins. That amounts to $1259 a year just for this drug. Doing the math, this means to prevent one event in one “apparently healthy patient” would cost about $300,000 just for the Crestor. These figures do not include the cost of doctors’ visits, the lab tests and the treatment of side effects from the medications, including the serious adverse events caused by Crestor.(Calculations: Absolute benefit of 1 event for 120 treated patients for 1.9 years at $1259 = 120 x 1.9 x $1259 = $287,052.)

Heart attacks, strokes, and the need for surgery and drugs are caused primarily by eating the Western diet, and secondarily by “bad habits,” including cigarette smoking and lack of exercise. The underlying disease, atherosclerosis, is reversible. There are no side effects or added costs with diet-therapy—therein lies the problem (no profit).

How Did They Get Those Results?
1) They stacked the deck with sick people, but passed them off as “healthy” to the press and public. Previous studies of statins have found that people at high risk for a heart attack or stroke will benefit, but healthy people will not. The deception in this study began by choosing high-risk test subjects and identifying them as “apparently healthy men and women.”
The nearly 18,000 people selected for the study out of the original 89,890 screened had very high HS-CRP levels of over 4.2 mg/L. Simply based on the HS-CRP these were not “apparently healthy,” but rather, people at high risk for cardiovascular disease. The cutoff value for high “bad” LDL-cholesterol level was 130 mg/dL. This allowed the inclusion of many high-risk people—“good health” is associated with a LDL below 100 mg/dL. In addition, the average blood pressure (134/80 mmHg) and total cholesterol (186 mg/dL) numbers were too high for these people to be considered “apparently healthy.”
The baseline median body mass index (BMI) was 28.3 (normal 18.5-24.9), indicating most of these people were overweight or obese. At the beginning of the study 41% were reported to have “metabolic syndrome.” (Metabolic syndrome is a combination of medical disorders, such as abdominal obesity, elevated blood sugar, triglycerides, and blood pressure, which considered together indicate an increased risk of cardiovascular disease.)

2)They Emphasized Relative, Not Absolute Benefits
Reporting the “relative benefit” of a drug is the most common method used by drug companies to deceive patients and their doctors. In this case relative risk reduction was determined by dividing the number of designated events (heart attacks, stroke, and deaths from cardiovascular disease) for the treated (Crestor) group by the events for the placebo group: 83 vs. 157. This mean the treated group had half (53%) the chance of an event compared to placebo. This figure is impressive.
However, the “absolute benefit”—the real life benefit a person can expect from treatment—is a very different story. Consider the numbers: nearly 18,000 people were treated for almost 2 years. In absolute numbers this means 83/8901 or 0.9% of those people taking Crestor had a serious event, as opposed to 157/8901 or 1.8% of those in the placebo group. This is an absolute event reduction of less than 1%. In other words, 120 patients had to be treated with Crestor for 1.9 years to prevent one designated event: heart attacks, strokes, and death from cardiovascular disease.

3)Early Termination of the Study Is Impressive but Suggests Dishonesty. The study was supposed to go on for 4 years, but was stopped at 1.9 years for “ethical reasons.” It was considered unethical to continue the study because continuation would mean depriving the people in the placebo group of the advantage of the treatment—Crestor in this case. “Early termination” of research is a powerful technique used by pharmaceutical companies to enhance the perceived value of the treatment in the minds of the medical profession, the press, and the public. But it has been shown that studies that are stopped early are biased and prone to exaggeration. According to a recent review in the Journal of the American Medical Association, “RCTs (Randomized Controlled Trials) stopped early for benefit are becomingmore common, often fail to adequately report relevant informationabout the decision to stop early, and show implausibly large treatment effects, particularly when the number of events issmall. These findings suggest clinicians should view the resultsof such trials with skepticism.”
No mention was made in this report about two other recent studies (CORONA and GISSI-HF) where Crestor did not result in any improvement in survival.

4) Researchers Underemphasized Serious Adverse Events from Crestor
One of the most important findings from this study (found in table 4) is the similar number of serious adverse events in both the Crestor-treated and placebo groups—1352 (15.2%) vs. 1377 (15.5%). How can that be? Wasn’t the number of events about half (83 vs. 157) for those taking Crestor? The study focused on events (heart attacks, strokes, and deaths from cardiovascular disease) that are expected to respond favorably to treatment. The study, and the media that followed, did not give appropriate attention to all adverse events that occurred. Clearly, there was an increase in non-cardiac serious adverse events in the Crestor group. Obviously, it is not in the best interest of the sponsor of the study to give attention to this finding.

The article did mention an increase in risk of diabetes in those treated with Crestor (270 reports of diabetes, vs. 216 in the placebo group). But there must be more. Amazingly, this study reported only one case of serious muscle damage (rhabdomyolysis). The expected rate is 3.16 fatal cases per million prescriptions written for Crestor.7 This is 16 to 80 times higher than that reported for other statins. Almost four years ago Dr. David Graham, FDA's associate director for science and medicine, named Crestor as one of five drugs that pose serious safety concerns and the FDA told AstraZeneca to pull its ads for Crestor because they do not mention its risks of causing acute kidney failure or rhabdomyolysis.

There is no long-term information on the safety of using these high doses of Crestor to lower “bad” LDL-cholesterol to 55 mg/dL (as they did in this study). This study was stopped after less than 2 years, but patients prescribed statins can expect to take them for 20 years and longer.

http://chrisgrande.com/2008/11/12/dr-mcdougalls-response-to-the-nejm-statin-study/

Lindsay Foord

24-Mar-09, 07:56

Thank you for the link Margaret.

I know (in my opinion) that high cholesterol is not a killer but I didn't think anyone would believe wee me, so I didn't mention it. It's a lot to take in.

Lindsay Foord

24-Mar-09, 08:05

Metalattakk (http://forum.caithness.org/member.php?u=1869) do you know what is wrong with my mum? She has been extremely unwell for the past 5/6months and no diagnoisis as yet. Any doctor willing to read all her notes, visit her and see for themselves? Then give us their diagnosis.

Mum was fit and healthy before she started medication, mum was on no other meds. What could be the cause of her ill health?

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/may/statins.htm

Alice in Blunderland

24-Mar-09, 08:31

Lindsay have you tried for a second oppinion from another doctor. :)

Bupa is one I know this will cost but if you feel you are getting nowhere its one route.

Wait and see how you get on on Wednesday and take it from there.

Im sure a few local doctors in this area may have been watching this thread with interest.

Alice in Blunderland

24-Mar-09, 08:59

I am including a link to an article on statins by Dr. John McDougall and no, Alice in Blunderland, I did not have to google to find it, I have known Dr. John and his wife, Mary, for a number of years. He has been practicing for around 40 years and unlike most doctors, he writes a prescription only as a last resort. If I ever have a serious health problem, I would consult with him before anyone else.

'Unlike most doctors'
not all ,as you have rightly indicated do write willy nilly perscriptions. A lot of doctors do have the time and effort and genuine willingness to do as much for their patient as possible to get to the route of what is wrong with them.
As your friend has rightly pointed out that does on occassion involve prescribing statins.

We all at times have a prefference for one doctor or another and I am glad you have a good friend in whom you have full trust.

I know my prefferrence for a doctor. ;)

Venture

24-Mar-09, 09:48

I know my prefferrence for a doctor. ;)

Now I wonder which one that would be?;):lol:

katarina

24-Mar-09, 10:03

Other experts would say the whole system is wrong.

This documentary for instance : Food Matters:

An interview with the producer - Google Video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9048107482669116244)

Maybe we place too much faith in medicine and not enough in nutrition. :roll:

In spite off not being overweight, never having been a smoker, taking regular exercise and eating what i considered a reasonably healthy diet, I found out my cholesterol was high a couple of years ago. I was offered the choice of whether or not to take statins and all the risks were explained to me. I opted for an even more healthy life style. I practically lived on fish, veg porridge and fruit. Drank pro-active drinks and soya milk etc. and walked three miles a night. Yet with every test my cholesterol continued to rise. finally I have agreed to go on statins. no one was on statins 30 years ago as some one said. Several members of my grandfathers family took strokes or heart attacks in their 50s or 60s. I also have high blood pressure. Sometimes it's just hereditary - foods not going to make a difference then - but worth trying first.

binbob

24-Mar-09, 10:29

BEWARE....there is a snake in the grasss.someone is not who they seem to be....hencve the very smart medical replies!!![disgust]

binbob

24-Mar-09, 10:48

SHE............... :eek:

i think it should be HE.......:lol:

taffy

24-Mar-09, 10:53

:lol: Taffy I am on a low dose of statin and have been for 4 months now. I have in the last few weeks been very tired and my legs feel very weak. I have been to the doc who is keeping an eye and if the symtoms dont go I have to go back. It was me who said to him if this could be side efects of the statin.

binbob

24-Mar-09, 11:06

loganbiffy

24-Mar-09, 11:18

Like I said yesterday, EVERYONE is different.
Some people will be fine on them, some people will not.
I personally wouldn't take them but that is my choice.
While they have may helped people who have had heart surgery and the like live longer, I just don't buy into the whole "lower cholesterol" bull that adverts feed us (again this is just my opinion)
The side effects that CAN happen make it a risk I personally would not take.

I'm pretty sure this thread never started off as a tirade against the org community, just a source of information for anyone who wanted it, but then again some people are never happy. ;)

Lindsay Foord

24-Mar-09, 21:19

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/feb2004_awsi_01.htm

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/feb2004_awsi_02.htm

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2003/12/13/statin_drugs_coenzyme_q10_depletion.htm

http://www.thincs.org/WAPF2003.htm#Uffe

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2003/10/17/cholesterol_what_a_business_plan.htm

http://www.savvypatients.com/statins.htm

_Ju_

24-Mar-09, 21:53

The internet is an infinate resource of information. For every page that says the priminister is Brown you will find the same ammount saying he is yellow, the same again saying he is blue......pink........green...... The point is if you have no confidence in the doctor, by all means change doctors, get second and third opinions or even ignore all medical advice (it is your choice!) but don't bag all statin use in the bag or claim that they have no benefits at all.

Lindsay Foord

24-Mar-09, 23:58

Thanks for your message Ju.

It may be the case that Statins are nothing to do with mums illness, I could be wrong, what do I know, I have no medical background. Would be good if someone could advise us on what's going on with mum though, 5/6 months of feeling extremely unwell, after many doctor visits and A&E visits we still have no diagnosis.

I do not know how many opinions we have had up until now, lost count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_effects

Fran

25-Mar-09, 03:46

i think it should be HE.......:lol:

Binbob....I can assure you alice is a she. I think she made the note of "she" because you called her she and not her name which is a bit rude.It is not nice to be called she or her.

Fran

25-Mar-09, 03:53

sadly ,taffy ..it is....hope u feel better soon.

Binbob, are you a doctor? I feel you must be as you are giving a diagnosis to Taffy as above. You are assuring him that statins are giving him bad legs and tiredness, so you must be a doctor but you havent examined the patient.
I have been on statins for many years with no side effects. If you are a doctor binbob, you should inform your patient above that the tiredness could be due to a number of things, amnemia, daibetes, thyroid problem to name a few.

Margaret M.

25-Mar-09, 04:08

Binbob....I can assure you alice is a she. I think she made the note of "she" because you called her she and not her name which is a bit rude.It is not nice to be called she or her.

Why do you consider calling a woman "she" to be rude?

Lindsay Foord

25-Mar-09, 08:33

A company have been in touch advising that they have already made a programme regarding things I have mentioned. They are hoping to have a second programme on.

Fran - my mum has already been tested for everything!

Kevin Milkins

25-Mar-09, 11:00

Why do you consider calling a woman "she" to be rude?

Good question Margaret M.:confused

I was always led to believe that calling someone "she" is rude,but not sure why.

If anyone was ever to refered to as "she" in our house when I was a child my mother would pipe up and say "OY, SHE IS THE CATS MOTHER":eek:

binbob

25-Mar-09, 11:38

Binbob, are you a doctor? I feel you must be as you are giving a diagnosis to Taffy as above. You are assuring him that statins are giving him bad legs and tiredness, so you must be a doctor but you havent examined the patient.
I have been on statins for many years with no side effects. If you are a doctor binbob, you should inform your patient above that the tiredness could be due to a number of things, amnemia, daibetes, thyroid problem to name a few.

it was not a diagnosis..and u know it.taffy asked if it was a side effect and it is same side effect i suffered.u actually know i am not a dr. so why ask a silly question??

drs. are not/should not be allowed to give opinions/advice here.
u also know that....i think u are DELIBERATELY setting out to irritate me.therefore i will not be answering any of ur questions.
have a nice day..................;)

binbob

25-Mar-09, 11:41

Binbob....I can assure you alice is a she. I think she made the note of "she" because you called her she and not her name which is a bit rude.It is not nice to be called she or her.

this has been sorted out between alice and myself ,privately and i do not need u or ur mate butting in.i do not think u understand the issue here...so please go and have a nice day.
by the way,are u a paramedic??must be as u have an ambulance as ur avatar.

binbob

25-Mar-09, 11:45

Why do you consider calling a woman "she" to be rude?
she considers it as so..because she has an issue with me....no other reason.she[fran] is also not aware of the WHOLE story behind that comment,which has been sorted out privately.with a totally reasonable person...who was a SHE.
hope u are well ..speak soon ,margaret.;)

binbob

25-Mar-09, 11:46

Good question Margaret M.:confused

I was always led to believe that calling someone "she" is rude,but not sure why.

If anyone was ever to refered to as "she" in our house when I was a child my mother would pipe up and say "OY, SHE IS THE CATS MOTHER":eek:
strangely enough ,so was i..but like ur mate u have no idea of the background to that comment....and i am not about to tell u.have a nice day.;)

_Ju_

25-Mar-09, 14:41

by the way,are u a paramedic??must be as u have an ambulance as ur avatar.

Does that make me a cow?

binbob

25-Mar-09, 15:34

Does that make me a cow?

gosh,if so ,u must be very clever....and i am not a basset????:lol::roll:

Anne x

25-Mar-09, 16:13

Lindsay Foord

25-Mar-09, 16:50

In my opinion - no one dies from high cholesterol.....

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/may/statins.htm

My mother is now off the Statins.

scorrie

25-Mar-09, 17:14

In my opinion - no one dies from high cholesterol.....

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/may/statins.htm

My mother is now off the Statins.

I have never seen "High Cholesterol" given as the cause of death on any Death Certificate. As the Dr you quoted said "Cholesterol is a risk factor" and not a cause of death in itself.

I have a bit of a problem with the fact that this Dr is still prescribing Statins to his patients. If, as he says, he is only HOPING that the drugs are going to do more good than harm, should he really be prescribing them?

I don't like to idea of going to my GP and being given a prescription on a "toss of a coin" basis.

I have diabetes and take Rosuvastatin to lower my cholesterol. My Cholesterol was 6 when originally measured and guidelines at the time said that this was acceptable. Some time later I was told 5 was the new target and some time after that it was changed to 4. I feel pretty grotty most days and had read several articles condemning statins. I decided to speak to my GP about the matter recently. Her advice was that, for the category of patient I am, statins will reduce my risk significantly enough to warrant continuation of my treatment. I was also told that, if I was not convinced of this fact, and thought I would feel better by stopping the drug, I was free to choose that option.

I hope your Mum will feel better and not suffer any ill-effects for stopping the Statins. I know that, if I felt bad enough and suspected the statins were the cause, I would either look at any other option, or simply stop taking them. Quality of life can be more important than longevity, in my opinion.

Lindsay Foord

25-Mar-09, 19:23

http://www.29billion.com/

Anne x

25-Mar-09, 20:20

[quote=Lindsay Foord;523688]In my opinion - no one dies from high cholesterol.....

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/may/statins.htm

Maybe !! no one actually dies from High Cholestrol but it does contribute to a lot of Heart Illnesses and diseases imop

Lindsay Foord

25-Mar-09, 20:34

[/URL]
[URL]http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/investigate-statins/signatures.html (http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/TakingLipitorAndHateIt/)

Have you read the coments on the petition???

Lindsay Foord

25-Mar-09, 21:52

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/TakingLipitorAndHateIt/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Stopped_Our_Statins/

http://www.eons.com/groups/group/statin-sufferers

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-432395/Statins-truth.html

katarina

25-Mar-09, 21:58

no one dies from high cholesterol true. But I have been led to believe that heart attacks are caused by clots. Cholesterol leaves fatty deposits on the insides of the arteries. One of two things MAY then happen. The blood passing over a raised ridge thinks it is a wound then automatically the blood clotting factor comes into play - hence a clot. A piece of the cholesterol might break of - same result as a blood clot. Even if this doesn't happen, the fatty deposits MAY narrow the arteries over time causing all sorts of problems depending on where they narrow. Angina being a prime example. It's up to the individual to weigh up the pros and cons. I have opted to take statins, but if they had caused me serious side effects I may have thought a better quality life albeit the risk might be a better option. Can you post a link to prove me wrong?

catran

26-Mar-09, 00:13

catran

26-Mar-09, 00:21

Anne x

26-Mar-09, 00:27

ok for once I am going to go with Consultant on his explanation
No I did not read petition as I said at the very start I was completely disturbed and worried by the thread and it caused me great anxiety

Who is right who is wrong do you we ever know today as in my original post all drugs have some side effects as I know to my cost
Lindsay I do hope you find your mum improving though now she is off statins

oldmarine

26-Mar-09, 01:36

Angina ??? It is a pain and a sympton not an illness as such.

Catran: You are correct, angina is a severe pain but it is also a warning that you have heart problems caused by the deposits of high cholesterol plaque lining the heart arteries. I speak from experience. I had severe angina bad enough forcing me to my knees in pain. I was rushed to the hospital where in turn my cardiologist had a surgeon do a 4-way bypass using veins from my legs. That was in 1988. Since then 4 stents have been placed in my main bypass going from the front to the back of my heart. Anyone who has these problems I suggest they see a cardiologist. I believe that I got extended life due to these procedures plus the medication prescribed by my physicians. I am going on 84 years and probably would not be this far along if it were not for the physicians and medication prescribed for me.

Lindsay Foord

26-Mar-09, 01:51

That is your choice Katarina to take these meds and take the possible risk. I know that for myself I will be doing my own doctor work from now on, who knows my body more than me?? I will chose what I put into my body, I have that right dont I?

My panic attacks have been horrendous the past 5/6 months, the past week has been one very long distressing panic attack with serious chest pain so bad that I honestly thought I was having a heart attack.

Confused?.....So am I!....Who's got the answers??......I don't, as I said before I have no medical background.

http://www.spacedoc.net/

http://www.lakemedelsverket.se/english/SYSTEMSIDOR/Search-the-website/?q=simvastatins

http://www.lakemedelsverket.se/SPC_PIL/Pdf/enhumspc/Simvastatin%20IVAX%20tabl%20ENG.pdf

http://www.spacedoc.net/statin_damage_crisis

http://talkingstatins.com/index.html

http://www.spacedoc.net/board/

http://talkingstatins.com/page5/page5.html

Please do your own research now, I am extremely tired.

Any advice or recommendations welcome.

Take Care all

Lindsay

Fran

26-Mar-09, 02:09

Forgot to say how do they know where the arteries narrow?? Have they all been on the scanner????Another source of mass hysteria from what I can gather. If one is healthy why do they be obsessed with illness and things that may or may not happen???? A good source of information of what drugs are good and what are bad can be obtaiohed from the pharmacist. They know aLL THE LETHAL STUFF.

They can see where the arteries are narrowed by an angiogram. this is a thin catheter put in the groin up to the heart and is seen on a screen and takes pictures. a baloon can be put in this and used to widen a narrow artery, this is called angioplasty. Many people have had their lives saved by this simple painless test. We are very lucky we can get this done.

Fran

26-Mar-09, 02:15

she considers it as so..because she has an issue with me....no other reason.she[fran] is also not aware of the WHOLE story behind that comment,which has been sorted out privately.with a totally reasonable person...who was a SHE.
hope u are well ..speak soon ,margaret.;)

I do NOT have an issue with you....or anyone else on here.... I dont even know you, i have never met you. I have been reading these posts and i just thought the way you used the word "she" to alice in Blunderland was said in a rude way. I would never refer to anyone as she, i would use the persons name. I was always told off if i referred to someone as she.I would be told "she does have a name, dont be so rude".thats all.

sandyr

26-Mar-09, 02:28

Can't we, the general populace, have a chat without someone doing the 'he said, she said' thingy?
Many interesting opinions here without there always being a malcontent involved.

Margaret M.

26-Mar-09, 03:54

I have a bit of a problem with the fact that this Dr is still prescribing Statins to his patients. If, as he says, he is only HOPING that the drugs are going to do more good than harm, should he really be prescribing them?

I think it was a very honest statement -- statins seem to be the best choice for high risk patients with heart disease but the medication does not come without risks. While a prescription medication may be effective for some, others may suffer some side effects and unfortunately, some may die as a result of taking it. For some medications, doctors cannot possibly be sure that they are prescribing the proper dosage or that the patient will not be harmed as a result.

Aaldtimer

26-Mar-09, 04:16

That is your choice Katarina to take these meds and take the possible risk. I know that for myself I will be doing my own doctor work from now on, who knows my body more than me?? I will chose what I put into my body, I have that right dont I?

My grampa is in an alzheimers home in Stirling, he had open heart surgery, triple heart bypass.......maybe he is on Statins too? My dad fell to his knees last week and couldn't get up, it was late I was in bed, clothes back on, taxi down to my parents home to help dad out. Right wee florence nightingale me. :(

I asked dad to ask the doctor for tramadol, diclofenac and a referral for a scan. To help control the pain and inflamation before we could get a scan to find out the cause. Dad returned with no tramadol (as the pain isn't bad enough) and also no scan referral as they are too expensive, he managed to get the diclofenac though. So my dad is now struggling on. Turns out my dad is on Statins too.

My panic attacks have been horrendous the past 5/6 months, the past week has been one very long distressing panic attack with serious chest pain so bad that I honestly thought I was having a heart attack.

Confused?.....So am I!....Who's got the answers??......I don't, as I said before I have no medical background.

http://www.spacedoc.net/

http://www.lakemedelsverket.se/english/SYSTEMSIDOR/Search-the-website/?q=simvastatins

http://www.lakemedelsverket.se/SPC_PIL/Pdf/enhumspc/Simvastatin%20IVAX%20tabl%20ENG.pdf

http://www.spacedoc.net/statin_damage_crisis

http://talkingstatins.com/index.html

http://www.spacedoc.net/board/

http://talkingstatins.com/page5/page5.html

Please do your own research now, I am extremely tired.

Any advice or recommendations welcome.

Take Care all

Lindsay

Lindsay, if you have no medical background, what makes you think you can ask your Dad to demand what you suggest?
My dear woman, you are beginning to show symptoms of Paranoia, and I suggest you calm down and re-assess the situation.

katarina

26-Mar-09, 10:01

panic attacks can bring on symptoms of more serious illnesses such as heart problems. Doctors should recognize the difference. I think if your dad had needed the medication YOU asked for he would have had it. Most doctors i find do have their patient's best interests at heart although there are a few I've no doubt who just throw pills at you for peace, or because they are just to tired to bother.

katarina

26-Mar-09, 10:03

By the way lindsay, how is your mum? I hope she is feeling better. did stopping the statins help her?

binbob

26-Mar-09, 10:13

[quote=Fran;523954]I do NOT have an issue with you....or anyone else on here.... I dont even know you, i have never met you. I have been reading these posts and i just thought the way you used the word "she" to alice in Blunderland was said in a rude way. I would never refer to anyone as she, i would use the persons name. I was always told off if i referred to someone as she.I would be told "she does have a name, dont be so rude".thats all.[/

as i said ..u do NOT know the background to that...so please mind ur own business.i have no more to say on subject.statins or SHE!!!

golach

26-Mar-09, 10:18

Lindsay, if you have no medical background, what makes you think you can ask your Dad to demand what you suggest?
My dear woman, you are beginning to show symptoms of Paranoia, and I suggest you calm down and re-assess the situation.
Aaldtimer, you took the text from my keyboard, my thoughts exactly, I had a high cholesteral count, I have had a heart attack, I have been prescribed Statin Medication,.....result my Cholesteral count has now fallen, the risk to me having another heart attack has been lowered.
I say well done Doc for making my life easier.

scorrie

26-Mar-09, 13:37

I think it was a very honest statement -- statins seem to be the best choice for high risk patients with heart disease but the medication does not come without risks. While a prescription medication may be effective for some, others may suffer some side effects and unfortunately, some may die as a result of taking it. For some medications, doctors cannot possibly be sure that they are prescribing the proper dosage or that the patient will not be harmed as a result.

It may have been an honest statement Margaret, but hardly a very professional, or reassuring one though!!

Most medicines come with a list of caveats that would put you off taking the pills if you read them and did not have the reassurance of your GP that they are going to be of benefit to you. Telling your patients you are only "guessing" that the drug will work is highly unprofessional in my opinion. Would you take a medication your Doctor had told you they were only guessing would help with your problem?

Our intrepid Doctor in the article cited went on to say:-

"My guess is educated because I have been practicing (a descriptive word) for about 40 years and I have read and understand most of the research on this subject. Thus, I would not make the offer if I did not believe it to be correct."

In other words, he IS sure he is doing the right thing or he wouldn't be prescribing the drug. To my eye he is waffling on about all the potential downsides and casting doubt about the drug, yet still prescribing it after having weighed up most of the available evidence. In other words, he is going with the "Flow" that many people seem to be condemning.

Margaret M.

26-Mar-09, 14:38

scorrie

26-Mar-09, 18:23

The flow is to prescribe a statin for anyone with high cholesterol, he does not do that -- he prescribes it for the patients who are high risk or who have already had heart problems. He takes the time to understand patients' history including what they eat and how they exercise and then gauge the need.

Doctors need to be more open and upfront and discuss the possible side effects of what they are prescribing. The number of people whose life is harmed or even ended as a result of prescription medication proves that the warnings attached to the medications are taken too lightly. Many times when patients suffer some of the side effects they do not put two and two together because the doctor did not explain the possibility of same and the patients did not read the enclosed leaflet and they continue to take it.

The list of side effects vary from medication to medication and the drug companies don't just willy nilly assign those to the medication. If a side effect is listed on a medication you can bet that enough people have experienced it to warrant the warning. It is there to make the patient aware of the possible dangers and the patient in particular has to weigh the benefits against the risk. The last thing I would want is a doctor who falsely reassures me.

I don't have any problem with the patients this Dr is NOT prescribing Statins for, so we can circumvent that area altogether. My comment was concerning those patients he IS prescribing them for. If he has gone as far as assessing their need for the drug, and decided that the prescription is warranted, then why does he tell them he is only guessing whether it will do them any good?

With all drugs, it would be hoped that Doctors would warn of side effects and ask the patient to come back and see them if they experience any of the problems. GPs can not be experts on every drug on the market, they have to use their skills to form opinions based on reports and general consensus regarding a particular medication. If a GP is of the opinion that a particular drug has benefits for me that outweigh the side-effects and potential problems, then I have the choice whether to take the medication or not. I don't see their opinion, based on their knowledge and the analysis of reports and statistics, as being at all like "false reassurance" and, in my opinion, it is infinitely better than prescribing a drug to someone. whilst telling them you are guessing as to whether it will help or not.

You never said whether you would take a medication based on a Dr telling you that they were only guessing would help you. I know that if I were one of this Dr's patients and I suffered ill-effects due to his prescribing me statins, I would be pretty sharpish in pointing my legal team in the direction of the web-page in question, so that they could see where he expressed concerns about what he was doing.

catran

26-Mar-09, 20:57

Angina can be a referred pain and not necessarily heart orientated.High cholestral levels does not necessarily mean heart attacks either........There are other factors which cause heart attacks and nought to do with either HBP or the likes. Major heart attacks are caused by very many complex situations and it would appear from this thread that all and sundry are putting the cause to high cholestral levels. Yes it may be a contributary factor in many cases but......................Statins I feel sure is not the answer to hysterical people who have had old grannies and grandads dying from heart disease. Upon saying that statins do have a place in the prevention of further Heart attacks and post operative by pass surgery.I feel sure that statins have not kept you alive Old Marine.I am delighted that you are so well and good for you after all that you have gone through, I feel sure you are highly delighted with yourself.

rich

26-Mar-09, 21:33

High levels of low density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol are a key player in the development of heart disease and stroke.

LDL is a major component of the plaques that form on blood vessel walls.

These plaques also contain immune system cells called macrophages.

Macrophages are caused by the immune system attepmting to clear itself of plaque.

This has led many researchers to consider that heart disease and stroke are inflammatory diseases.

DIet and exercise may reduce your LDL levels. But if that doesn't work only one class of drug will help - statins.

If you fling high blood pressure and obesity into the cauldron then you may take years off your life if you dont seek medical help. Is that what you want?

islander808

26-Mar-09, 21:36

:) Hello group. I am a first time poster to this forum and statins happens to be a favorite topic of mine. I have seen it take a serious toll on my elderly mom (aka, "mum"). She had a stroke in March 2006. As you all know, once one commits the sin of having a heart attack or stroke, they condemn you to taking statins for the rest of your life even if you were like my mom who never had high cholesterol. As a consequence of taking 20 mgs of lipitor, she began repeating her questions after 6 weeks and never could remember our answers to those questions. Then within 5 months while still on the "poison" the cardiologist became alarmed when he saw symptoms of congestive heart failure. You know how that goes right? Don't stop the drug (statin) that is depleting the heart of CoQ10 and thus causing the CHF but give her another drug (like cozaar) and jack up the dose so she coughs like HELL. Yeah, those docs sure know how to kill a patient by piling one drug on top of the other, don't they? Since her stroke caused some paralysis she had to have some physical therapy. She was doing good learning to walk with the walker and then eventually without the walker. But soon after about 2 years on the poison, she began having problems walking again. Doctor blamed it on her arthritis obviously he was too brain washed to stop the statins that have since caused her a significant amount of muscle weakness. Anyway after 3 years on the "poison" she is finally off of it but not without damage to her remaining quality of life. Statins only reduce the risk of death or heart attack by a paltry 2% (absolute risk) if you're in the secondary prevention group. There are way better alternatives to take with a way better absolute risk reduction and NO side effects. BEWARE of this dangerous SCAM DRUG. [evil]

catran

26-Mar-09, 21:46

Yes Rich I do agree with you, obesity HBP and HDL plays a part in heart attacks but there are other mitigating factors as well when none of these factors present itself I am only trying to point out that it would appear that half the nation if not more is on STATINS, a good slimmer's potion I m led to believe the weight drops off.........Mass hysteria just like the HRT...who knows what is good for one when they are not clinically ill?Prevention better than cure no doubt but????????? There again one knows their own body. Certain drugs apear to be fashionable by all accounts.

catran

26-Mar-09, 22:01

Here we go Islander I am in total agreement with you on this subject as I do have some knowledge. Yes heart attacks and strokes can be caused by totally different factors altogether so this thing appears to be to my simple mind MASS HYSTERIA.......The two people I know who are on it made dramatic weight loss within weeks and were so CHUFFED with their new image ( both did not need to loose weight needless to say) Both ARE FAIRLY HEALTHY so why do they do this to themselves??????Mind you along with all the rest of the stuff that is dished out to them on a regular basis they must be legalized druggies. I am sure doctors dont have the time to evaluate every patient presenting themselves with heart abnormalities .even when the ECGs indicate all is well .

Apparently since the new scanner came to Caithness it is now the in thing so what next?

Lindsay Foord

26-Mar-09, 23:12

A friend of mine has passed me the following advice -

Heart disease occurs underneath the inside wall of the artery – It is not a simple case of fats or cholesterol getting stuck to the inside wall.

First of all, tissue damage occurs – this could be caused by a wide range of things (high blood glucose, toxins, smoking etc). Once the damage occurs the body sends fats and cholesterol to the damaged cells in order to fix the cells (since its saturated fats and cholesterol that provide structural integrity to the cells and protect the cells from the outside environment)

Remember that this is all happening underneath the inside wall of the artery.

As this process continues, the body sends a very wide range of different molecules to the area and the process is best described as a process of inflammation.

The inflammatory process is almost the same as when, for example, we sprain the ankle joint, however, with an ankle sprain we know its there (because it hurts to walk). But with inflammation of the arteries, we are usually unaware of it and we continue doing whatever it is that’s causing the damage.

As more damage occurs blood clots eventually form and these can break-off and block the supply of blood downstream of the blockage – if this is an artery supplying the heart muscle then we’ll get a heart attack.

So, as you can see, the process has nothing at all to do with a piece of cholesterol breaking off and its not a case of the body thinking that there is a wound present – there is definitely a wound present caused by the initial tissue damage that again has got nothing to do with cholesterol.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/7x30u8fpjw6e4xl7/

http://www.springerlink.com/content/331204k2188w8466/?p=9b7a2f75ed89408588570f2a5878a3e6&pi=1

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/cct/article/PIIS0197245603001806/abstract

http://www.theheart.org/article/886691.do

http://www.spacedoc.net/board/index.php

http://www.theheart.org/article/234283.do

http://talkingstatins.com/

http://www.theheart.org/article/795913.do

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/Produkte.asp?doi=10.1159/000106676&typ=pdf

http://www.theheart.org/article/717003.do

http://biomed.gerontologyjournals.org/cgi/content/full/63/4/369 - This link is an observational study.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T16-4RFD02N-2&_user=10&_coverDate=03%2F20%2F2009&_alid=889768457&_rdoc=3&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_cdi=4882&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=690&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6ad413795b8b6b356bfeb3cf43944a28

Below is a website which was helpful to me for making my decision.....

http://www.natural-alternative-products.co.uk/pharma-nord-bioactive-q10-ubiquinol-100mg-p-2370.html

JAWS

26-Mar-09, 23:38

Aaldtimer, you took the text from my keyboard, my thoughts exactly, I had a high cholesteral count, I have had a heart attack, I have been prescribed Statin Medication,.....result my Cholesteral count has now fallen, the risk to me having another heart attack has been lowered.
I say well done Doc for making my life easier.
I'm with you and Aaldtimer on this one and was put on statins a number of years ago, on the instructions of the consultant who treated me after I suffered a stroke. There is, quite naturally the possibility that he was a complete moron and that people without medical training are far better placed to be able to advise on medical matters but I think I would rather take his advice and keep on with the statins rather than risk a further and possibly fatal stoke or heart attack.

Still, I know how to play Russian Roulette as well, but not when five chambers are loaded and only one empty.

One thing I was taught as a child and, especially when it comes to matters which involve, life, death and chronic serious illness, I still accept as being true is the fact that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Personally I would rather trust the advice of somebody who has had many years intense studying and has convinced other people in the same line of work who themselves have had even more intensive training and many decades of experience that they are competent in their subject than the ideas obtained by reading a few medical journals and press reports.

If anybody is in any doubt about the safety or otherwise of any medication they are taking then the only, and I repeat ONLY, solution is to consult somebody who had proper qualifications to pontificate on the matter. Amateurs make very dangerous doctors.

Better safe than dead!

weefee

27-Mar-09, 00:10

There does appear to be a large number of people who have had conditions diagnosed that could have been a Statins side effect.
This will be especially difficult if these side effects mimic conditions such as altzeimers. Considering the optimum age of people prescribed this medication, this is very concerning, especially if, as reports say, its the most popular medication prescribed in the country at the moment!!

I dont think it would do any harm for Doctors to be more vigilant to the Statins patients when they visit with other ailments, the patient could be regarding symptoms such as muscle pain or memory loss down to age rather than side effects. Clearly the doctor will have medical records and history, if a patient with no record of dementia and in previous good health suddenly starts showing memory loss and confusion i would hope Statins would be the first possibility considered.

The unknowing and uncertaintly that these people must have been through, who have thought they were going mad or loosing balance or even dying, their quality of life for months and even years have suffered, only to find that is was simply their medication. That would be a very hard thing to go through and would want others to know the risks.

catran

27-Mar-09, 00:14

Well folks as you say be guided by your consultant as to what caused the heart attack or stroke in the first place but do keep up to date with the precribed medication. As said a little knowledge is dangerous and that is why I think the STATINS have got out of hand. What can a poor doctor do when one comes in presentng themselves with all the indications of heart failure, telling him about all the grannies that have died due to strokes ect., and their cholestral is sky high??????Of course statins are prescribed.

Never mind as you say it has got its place and can bring peace of mind and I do believe that but I do not believe it should be precribed to all and sundry hence the reason that it is the cheaper drug that is being dished out when those that really need it are at the cheap end of the scale so now I have had my say I am going to be like Northerner and disappear of the scene as this forum leaves me somewhat perplexed.

rich

27-Mar-09, 00:14

What is this thing you've got about underneath the interior of the artery wall? The fact that the clots form inside artery walls is one nobody would challenge. But what is underneath the interior? Could you clarify?

Lindsay Foord

27-Mar-09, 00:36

http://www.heartuk.org.uk/pressroom/index.php?/news/heart_uk_reassures_patients_about_statins/

http://www.itv.com/News/tonight/episodes/Heartofthematter/default.html

http://www.heartuk.org.uk/index.php/search/results/03af68903711fd7864d1fcda0825d15f/

Margaret M.

27-Mar-09, 00:44

If he has gone as far as assessing their need for the drug, and decided that the prescription is warranted, then why does he tell them he is only guessing whether it will do them any good?

Because he articulates what all doctors have to hope each time they write a prescription -- that the patient for whom they are prescribing the medication will not be one of those who will experience the side effects that is documented for the drug. Doctors have no way of knowing how a patient will react to any medication. Over 100,000 people die in the U.S. each year from taking prescription medications exactly as prescribed -- the numbers in the U.K. are also startling. Add to that the number of people whose quality of life has been harmed considerably as the result of taking prescription medications and it becomes very obvious that doctors are frequently guessing and hoping it will do more good than harm. A patient needs to leave with the understanding that they are about to take a powerful medication. From reading the posts on this thread, it is obvious that the side effects listed on the statins have been experienced by quite a few and it may well have caused them more harm than good.

I don't see their opinion, based on their knowledge and the analysis of reports and statistics, as being at all like "false reassurance"Considering that the majority of doctors get their information about drugs from the pharmaceutical company reps and study data is frequently deliberately skewered in favour of the drugs, bogus reassurance may well be what you are getting. There are very few doctors like Dr. McDougall who take the time to thoroughly analyze the studies, i.e., delve into who funded the studies and the background of those involved in the studies, etc.

Colin posted a link to Food Matters. If you have not seen it, it is worth taking a look, particularly at the information about pharmaceutical companies.

You never said whether you would take a medication based on a Dr telling you that they were only guessing would help you.I have more confidence in a doctor who is honest with me and if there is no guarantee that it will help me, I want to know that -- it all needs to be taken into consideration. I like a team approach to my health care, I want the doctor to tell me everything he/she knows about a medication and the successes and failures they have seen in their patients who take the medication. I'll do some research and then we'll decide together.

I would never go back to a doctor who after a brief discussion about my symptoms, writes me a prescription, assures me it will do the trick and shows me the door. I know too many people who are walking pharmacies and are downing pills like they are smarties. They start by taking a drug for one ailment. When they suffer some side effects from that drug, the doctor prescribes another medication to help with those and so on.

weefee

27-Mar-09, 00:54

I have more confidence in a doctor who is honest with me and if there is no guarantee that it will help me, I want to know that -- it all needs to be taken into consideration. I like a team approach to my health care, I want the doctor to tell me everything he/she knows about a medication and the successes and failures they have seen in their patients who take the medication. I'll do some research and then we'll decide together.

I would never go back to a doctor who after a brief discussion about my symptoms, writes me a prescription, assures me it will do the trick and shows me the door. I know too many people who are walking pharmacies and are downing pills like they are smarties. They start by taking a drug for one ailment. When they suffer some side effects from that drug, the doctor prescribes another medication to help with those and so on.

totally agree!!

islander808

27-Mar-09, 01:05

Well the day they began advertising drugs on TV is the day I lost a large percentage of confidence (50% or more) in the medical system and in doctors, especially the drug pushing types who put you on a drug for a lifetime and leave you there to fight off those nasty side effects. The medical profession used to be almost totally trust worthy maybe 30 years ago but not anymore. Not since the drug companies took control of how and what doctors are taught in school.
Just remember, 50% of those with normal cholesterol levels still have heart attacks. My own doctor told me once that one of her patients was on crestor and still got a heart attack. So those of you who think you are safe from having a heart attack because you are taking a statin and your cholesterol values are low might be in for a big surprise. Best to educate yourselves THOROUGHLY rather than let the medical profession FOOL YOU.:eek:

Moderator

27-Mar-09, 01:08

This thread is now closed as it is felt the topic has run its course.