View Full Version : Referendum on Gaelic Roadsigns
Bilingual roadsigns are evidently still a big issue in the county. The Groat has been running a poll online for a long time but you can vote in it as many times as you wish and I have heard claims that pressure groups from both sides have been doing exactly that. Yesterday's Groat (http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/6317/Referendum_call_made_on_Gaelic_signs.html) reported a request for a referendum. Let's have an Org referendum.
I have used the same wording and the same 3 choices as the Groat poll.
Should Caithness have bilingual road signs?
The poll is secret, no-one can see how you voted.
wickscorrie
21-Mar-09, 15:34
i voted no,
signs should be representative of the needs of the people, ie on a percentage of languages that folk actually speak.
i voted no,
signs should be representative of the needs of the people, ie on a percentage of languages that folk actually speak.
Polish would be more apt than Gaelic then?
Why dont they put french and german signs up too cos i cant read that language either.
The americans had the right idea... No taxation without representation...
If the councils not prepared to recognise our existance - why should we pay our council tax.
In fact this doesnt sound much different from the caithness councillors demand for an opt out for caithness on policies agreed by the rest of the council.
Wonder how many caithnessians would suddenly claim to be gaels if they didnt have to pay council tax ?
The council needs to represent the whole of the community - not just the majority - otherwise everybody starts to lose out - where will it end.
Lets cut funding for "the arty farty types"
Lets cut funding for the the youth clubs.
Lets cut funding for post bus.
etc etc.
I have enough difficulty pronouncing the town names in english, so i'd stand no chance if they were all in Gaelic.:lol:
But then you travel to another country and most of there signs are not in english, and we have difficulty trying to find our way round. So i think it does not matter which way it goes to be honest.
But i still voted no.Sorry.
King_Creon
21-Mar-09, 23:20
I voted yes. I don't think it should be an issue of people thinking "but i don't understand them"; having the Gaelic translation is a nod to the place's history and cultural heritage whether you understand it or not.
to erase it completely would just be totalitarianism.
If the roads are not repaired soon it won't matter whether or not the signs are in Gaelic, no one will be there to see them.[disgust]
I voted "NO" as I found them extremely confusing when in the Inverness area with the Gaelic language taking preference over English.[disgust]
Had a laugh today over the Gaelic thing - a friend of mine was looking for someone to do a short intro to a local Arts event in Gaelic, y'know "Hello & welcome" sort of thing (funders are so demanding these days...) I suggested a few names to her, but it turns out that the Melvich Gaelic Choir are singing somewhere South that weekend - and she can find NO other Gaelic speakers in Caithness to do the job - can you believe it?!![lol]
I think we should just have special signs that SING the Gaelic as you walk by them instead - much more fun & much more culturally appropriate!;)
I'd say no if they were in Gaelic only, because I'd know even less than I do now where I was. But I don't see why they shouldn't be in both............or in any language deemed appropriate.....as long as there was the English equivalent..........because I can differentiate between English and all other languages, so I'd be able to read roadsigns...always useful when travelling, imo....so I voted yes.
Can't see what the problem is myself...never got lost anywhere with bi-lingual signs yet............unless they had no English on them.
Had a laugh today over the Gaelic thing - a friend of mine was looking for someone to do a short intro to a local Arts event in Gaelic, y'know "Hello & welcome" sort of thing (funders are so demanding these days...) I suggested a few names to her, but it turns out that the Melvich Gaelic Choir are singing somewhere South that weekend - and she can find NO other Gaelic speakers in Caithness to do the job - can you believe it?!![lol]
I think we should just have special signs that SING the Gaelic as you walk by them instead - much more fun & much more culturally appropriate!;)
Can't belive that......maybe she couldn't find any who wanted to do a short intro to a local Arts event in Gaelic, y'know "Hello & welcome" sort of thing. :confused
I could get my sister-in-law up to do it, maybe...she didn't speak English until she started school in Stornoway.
Aaldtimer
22-Mar-09, 04:17
[quote=tootler;521742]Had a laugh today over the Gaelic thing - a friend of mine was looking for someone to do a short intro to a local Arts event in Gaelic, y'know "Hello & welcome" sort of thing (funders are so demanding these days...) I suggested a few names to her, but it turns out that the Melvich Gaelic Choir are singing somewhere South that weekend - and she can find NO other Gaelic speakers in Caithness to do the job - can you believe it?!![lol]
I think you'll find that many of the Melvich Choir are not Gaelic speakers, but only sing parrot fashion.
There may be many Gaelic speakers in the County that she didn't know that she could have asked.
Also, many who would have demurred, with the typical Caithness sanction..."Ach, Ah dinna lek." :confused
Alice in Blunderland
22-Mar-09, 08:51
Had a laugh today over the Gaelic thing - a friend of mine was looking for someone to do a short intro to a local Arts event in Gaelic, y'know "Hello & welcome" sort of thing (funders are so demanding these days...) I suggested a few names to her, but it turns out that the Melvich Gaelic Choir are singing somewhere South that weekend - and she can find NO other Gaelic speakers in Caithness to do the job - can you believe it?!!
I think we should just have special signs that SING the Gaelic as you walk by them instead - much more fun & much more culturally appropriate!
I also find this hard to believe as within a short distance of my house alone I know of three gaelic speakers ( not including WBG ) on heading into Wick there are a few more folks that I am aware of who also speak Gaelic and there are likely to be many more I am unaware of.
However in current climates I would find any Gaelic speakers relutance to stand up and do the hello welcome thingy quite obvious.
I dont care about Gaelice signs or whether looking back we spoke the language in this county or not. Im more worried as to what the future holds for my children.
On a lighter note with Sat nav Im sure even if the sign posts are in Dutch we will drive to where we need to get to no problem with hardly looking at a sign post. ;)
The money has been set out by the Scottish Executive. It can only be spent on Gaelic its ringfenced. If they dont spend it on this it goes right back into the big pot which Inverness folk who speak as much Gaelic in porportion to the population there is up here I would think are happily spending on road signs.
Theres always complaints how Inverness get everything ..............the signs are going across the whole region and the cry is we dont want it here ............ :confused
Yes funders are very demanding these days but so are the public. :)
riggerboy
22-Mar-09, 09:05
i voted no coz i cant read the gobblty gook stuff and they may put something up there that reads something like
o i dont know
maybe something like
"hang the englander" (we wouldnt want that now would we ???)
or
"all folks from south of the great wall please return to your own little bit of soil" (and we wouldnt want that ? would we ??)
I voted no. Caithness was never a Gaelic speaking county. Do we start putting signs in Polish or French or any other language as well:lol:
GetWithTheTimes
22-Mar-09, 11:18
The americans had the right idea... No taxation without representation...
If the councils not prepared to recognise our existance - why should we pay our council tax.
In fact this doesnt sound much different from the caithness councillors demand for an opt out for caithness on policies agreed by the rest of the council.
Wonder how many caithnessians would suddenly claim to be gaels if they didnt have to pay council tax ?
The council needs to represent the whole of the community - not just the majority - otherwise everybody starts to lose out - where will it end.
Lets cut funding for "the arty farty types"
Lets cut funding for the the youth clubs.
Lets cut funding for post bus.
etc etc.
from this post you made i will take a wild stab in the dark and say YOU are gaelic yes???
well you seem to be able to write english perfect so i would imagine you can read it so why would you want to waste money and time painting a language the majority cant read onto the signs when you can read the sign that exists perfectly well???
i think that filling in potholes in the road and paying people to clean the beach during the summer would be a better way of spending money than putting up an obviously dying language beneath signs of which you can obviously read just because the very tiny small minority of people have a chip on their shoulder because nobody cares to speak the language, if people are going to go south to highly recommended colleges and universities they are not going to be taught in gaelic and i really don't see why they should like i said in the other thread this is an english speaking country people within it should take the time to learn it, i don't have anything against people who want to speak gaelic or keep the traditional language going but wasting money painting and putting up road signs for a smaller minority than the polish indian and chinese minorities in this country is ridiculous, we don't hear them all shouting for their language to be put on the signs so why should gaels be any different
No caithness should not have gaelic road signs, i dont think that there is a lot of gaelic speaking caithness folk to warrent the cost
I am neutral on the subject of Gaelic or at least I like to think I am. I have been living here for 6 years now and I have learnt that traditional Gaelic surnames are well represented in Caithness, there are lots of Gaelic places names dotted all over the county, we identify with the plight of the folk of the Clearances who were predominantly Gaelic speakers, we symbolise the images of people fishing and gutting in our harbours who were mainly Gaelic labourers.
In Caithness it is the norm to identify ourselves with Norse culture, that is probably true up to a point but the strongest Gaelic speaking area, Western Isles has a similiar if not stronger claim for Norse links. The whole of Scotland has been influenced by the Viking to a point but much recently it was it was influenced by Gaelic culture and much more widespread.
The Norse traditions is a lot older and so we cannot deny that Gaelic influences on Caithnessian culture are more recent and have more importance whether we want it to be the case or not.
All in all, Caithness is a mish mash of the young and the old, Gaelic and norse, but we are only kidding ourselves if we deny one over the other.
Recent DNA studies have shown that Norse has a minor representation in the population of Caithness but it is higher in Caithness than most of the rest of the UK. Incidentally, it is higher in the male paternal gene markers than maternal which says a lot.
I understand the arguements against and for bilingual signs. But I also understand how the impact of the loss of a culture can have on the concience of the one that survives. The British Government was pro-active in destroying Gaelic culture right across the UK by introducing mono-lingual signs. This was wrong then as much as it can be seen as wrong now, so can it seen as wrong to carry on the injustice?
I agree that we shouldnt spend money on extra road signs but I disagree with comments made about the gaelic language and speakers.
I think people should be more open minded and I think alot more research needs to be done by alot of people on the org before they start commenting. Gaelic+English is the native language of Scotland im not sure where alot of people think Caithness is but last time I looked it was in Scotland.
You can keep disagreeing that gaelic has nothing to do with Caithness and its culture but im afraid it has.
That is my honest opinion I find alot of people look down on the Western Isle and I think this is wrong I think people who make ridiculous comments should get out more and go and see places before making asumptions about them.
Were all equal and it would do us all well to remember that;)
Getwiththetimes - I note your tag line
Why tell me not to take offence, when your comments are designed to be offensive, or am i misunderstanding your intentions - or are you mis-understanding your own intentions - perhaps the quality of discourse demonstrates that neither of us have as good a grasp of English as you think ?
Words do not correspond to understanding or meaning ?
Persuing your argument - as a universal principal (therefore taking it out of the immediate context of gaelic in caithness), may result in reducing the number of opportunities for communication to the lowest common denominator, which can only reduce our ability to understand one another.
Eventualy misunderstanding will breed insecurity and decend into violence and destruction that would have financial consequences far in excess of any savings made - there are plenty of current and historical examples.
Therefore I advocate increasing the opportunities for communication through any media, therefore investment in - language - art - music - This will improve our chances of understanding and can be regarding as a significant investment in our future piece and prosperity - In other words were saving you money in the long term.
Or perhaps your views on gaelic arent a matter of principle, your just singling out Gaelic - in which case its good old fashioned irrational prejudice - in shich case your comments truly are offensive. [disgust]
I voted no. Caithness was never a Gaelic speaking county. Do we start putting signs in Polish or French or any other language as well:lol:
If it were that simple there would be no argument.
I looked for information on the web a couple of weeks ago and the best report I found was this one by Kurt C Duwe (http://www.linguae-celticae.org/dateien/Gaidhlig_Local_Studies_Vol_22_April_2005-a.pdf). He seems to be a German with a strong interest in Celtic languages (http://www.linguae-celticae.org/Willkommen.htm).
He is obviously pro-Gaelic and some of his opinions and conclusions reflect this but I assume the numbers are accurate. Read and enjoy!
GetWithTheTimes
22-Mar-09, 17:18
Getwiththetimes - I note your tag line
Why tell me not to take offence, when your comments are designed to be offensive, or am i misunderstanding your intentions - or are you mis-understanding your own intentions - perhaps the quality of discourse demonstrates that neither of us have as good a grasp of English as you think ?
Words do not correspond to understanding or meaning ?
Persuing your argument - as a universal principal (therefore taking it out of the immediate context of gaelic in caithness), may result in reducing the number of opportunities for communication to the lowest common denominator, which can only reduce our ability to understand one another.
Eventualy misunderstanding will breed insecurity and decend into violence and destruction that would have financial consequences far in excess of any savings made - there are plenty of current and historical examples.
Therefore I advocate increasing the opportunities for communication through any media, therefore investment in - language - art - music - This will improve our chances of understanding and can be regarding as a significant investment in our future piece and prosperity - In other words were saving you money in the long term.
Or perhaps your views on gaelic arent a matter of principle, your just singling out Gaelic - in which case its good old fashioned irrational prejudice - in shich case your comments truly are offensive. [disgust]
dont try and make this into something it isnt i was mearly stating in my own opinion which is allowed that there are larger minorities than gaelic so why should you be treated special compared to other ethnicities or different lingual persons
and dont quote me on my spelling as you have caught me on the drink lol
you seem to hold an empty arguement
do gaelic people speak english???
answer that as i imagine the answer is yes and if so why do you feel the need to waste funds and resources painting another language no other understands when you read english fine???
Whitewater
22-Mar-09, 17:55
I voted no. Reason being I think that a roadsign in two languages is distracting. Nothing against gaelic, I regret that I'm unable to convese in it, but as English is our main language, I'm sure many people, particularly foreign drivers (who are concentrating really hard already with having to drive on the left) will get confused.
On the contrary, the point is quite relevant;
You are allowed your opinion just as I am allowed to question it.
(or am I ?) Appologies if your taking this personally, its not intended to be - the discussion is based on your argument, one which many others have expressed and I am trying to keep the discussion dispassionate.)
Is opposition to gaelic based on a matter of principle (ie a stance consistantly applied across all of lifes encounters ) or is it unexplainable (ie you just dont like gaelic)
Signs with Gaelic on them are not for you - I can understand that - however you are also stating that you dont want them for me either - thats the part I am having difficulty with.
Nobody is losing anything by having a few lines of Gaelic to signs and no ones is forcing anybody to learn Gaelic.
Road signs are for showing you the way. They should correspond to what is written on your road map.
Cash-strapped councils should not be wasting taxpayers' money on unnecessary flag-waving.
If these people were spending their own money, or running a commercial business, they would think twice before committing money to fantastical schemes, when there is little enough forthe necessities.
Nobody is losing anything by having a few lines of Gaelic to signs
Ah, but Each, we ARE losing something:
The NE corner of Caithness (the part where most of the roads are) is possibly the ONLY place in the Highlands and Islands where the placenames haven't (yet!) been influenced by modern Gaelic. Any Gaelic influence you might detect is from the ancient Picts and this blend of Pictish and Norse in our placenames IS unique in the Highlands. Whether people ever spoke Gaelic here is not particularly relevant - it's the placenames that are needing to be protected.
By making up modern Gaelic names for placenames that have survived without that influence for hundreds of years, the Highland Council is, effectively, trashing our unique local history as reflected by our unique local Norse/Pictish placenames. A nightmare for historians of the future.
I call that a loss.:(
Alice in Blunderland
22-Mar-09, 18:20
Cash-strapped councils should not be wasting taxpayers' money on unnecessary flag-waving.
This has been laid down by the Scottish Executive thats the point the Highland Council have to spend it on Gaelic. Not road repairs ,Wick High or anything else. The money has been ring fenced as in only for the Gaelic plan or whatever its called.
Ah, but Each, we ARE losing something:
The NE corner of Caithness (the part where most of the roads are) is possibly the ONLY place in the Highlands and Islands where the placenames haven't (yet!) been influenced by modern Gaelic. Any Gaelic influence you might detect is from the ancient Picts and this blend of Pictish and Norse in our placenames IS unique in the Highlands. Whether people ever spoke Gaelic here is not particularly relevant - it's the placenames that are needing to be protected.
By making up modern Gaelic names for placenames that have survived without that influence for hundreds of years, the Highland Council is, effectively, trashing our unique local history as reflected by our unique local Norse/Pictish placenames. A nightmare for historians of the future.
I call that a loss.:(
Historically I would disagree on virtually every point that you made there.
The pictish language isn't Gaelic.
The place names on the OS map for hills rivers and a lot of town were influenced by 18th-19th century Gaelic when army mappers drew the first maps of the area.
A 'blend' of norse and pictish is not unique to our area.
Sun Circle
22-Mar-09, 19:27
Historically I would disagree on virtually every point that you made there.
The pictish language isn't Gaelic.
The place names on the OS map for hills rivers and a lot of town were influenced by 18th-19th century Gaelic when army mappers drew the first maps of the area.
A 'blend' of norse and pictish is not unique to our area.
Just out of interest and as a point of educating myself and others (I hasten to add, I am not at all knowledgeable on the subject of Gaelic or placenames) I would be interested to see a short list of examples of Caithness town or village placenames that have been influenced by the Gaelic.
Note that I'm not interested in hill names or river names since these will not be on the road signs.
Are any of the following names in any way Gaelic? They don't sound very Gaelic to my uneducated ear.
Thurso
Wick
Castletown
Halkirk
Watten
John o'Groats
Mey
Reiss
Keiss
Scarfskerry
Lybster
I'm not having a go - I'm just genuinely interested to see if there are any of the main placenames up here on the main roads which are actually gaelic in origin?
Mey is Gaelic. So is Dunbeath and Dounreay. A lot of the Gaelic has been Anglicised.
The majority of the larger settlements kept the norse names, why change a name?
From Wikipedia.
Scottish Gaelic was historically spoken throughout Caithness and remained the majority language until the early 19th century.[3] It has survived, in a limited form, in the west of the county.[4] Gaelic is sometimes erroneously claimed to have never been spoken in Caithness; the Gaelic name for the region, Gallaibh, translates as "Land of the Gall (non-Gaels)" - a name which reflects historic Norse rule - but this is a result of language shift towards English within recent centuries.[4]
totally agree with Mr Coghill when he said: "There's unanimous support for Gaelic among councillors. The problem is the way the policy over the bilingual signs is being implemented. It's doing a great disservice to the Gaelic language." Lets keep it under control and in it's place
Mr Coghill said that resources being targeted for new signs would be much better devoted towards mending the potholes which many roads in the region have been left with following the recent cold snap. Which along with the 63 who voted No to 8 who said yes Ithink we know which way we should be going.
Sun Circle
22-Mar-09, 20:18
Indeed, I think you're spot on there... why change a name?
I have voted no for that reason exactly. We should preserve our existing unique Caithness blend of heritage rather than try to whitewash it with a gaelic culture which seems to me to only count towards a very tiny proportion of the actual historical and cultural influences in Caithness.
kmahon2001
22-Mar-09, 20:35
I voted yes. I don't think it should be an issue of people thinking "but i don't understand them"; having the Gaelic translation is a nod to the place's history and cultural heritage whether you understand it or not.
to erase it completely would just be totalitarianism.
Surely with Caithness's Norse heritage and place names, wouldn't Norwegian be more appropriate than Gaelic? ;) How on earth would you translate Thurso or Halkirk into Gaelic? You'd have to invent a Gaelic spelling or possibly change the names altogether into something more Gaelic sounding. :eek:
BTW I notice that people keep referring to Melvich as being in Caithness, but whenever I drive between Thurso and Melvich I go past the sign for the Caithness/Sutherland border with Melvich a few miles on the Sutherland side. Did the borders change at some point so that Melvich used to come under Caithness but now comes under Sutherland?
On the subject of the bilingual signs being dangerous because of driver confusion, Melvich and the surrounding areas already do have bilingual road signs and I don't find them at all confusing, but having said that, they still don't seem appropriate for Caithness.
Then again, who am I to comment, when I'm one of the folk who came from south of the great wall, and maybe should be hanged or go back to my own little bit of soil, eh Riggerboy?? ;)
Indeed, I think you're spot on there... why change a name?
I have voted no for that reason exactly. We should preserve our existing unique Caithness blend of heritage rather than try to whitewash it with a gaelic culture which seems to me to only count towards a very tiny proportion of the actual historical and cultural influences in Caithness.
I agree with why change a name, nobody is proposing to change any names with bilingual signs, but just offer an alternative name in one of the languages of the area's cultural past. But you are completely wrong about gaelic culture having a tiny influence on Caithness.
Cost is not an issue but know matter how often its explained - it keeps re-emerging.
Micahel Foxely - Leader of Councils Admin put it...
"Then there is this nonsense about cost. Bilingual signs cost virtually the
same as the single language signs."
The most recent detailed economic study carried out into the economic benefits of the Mod to the local community where its held concluded that the Mod contributed nearly £1m to the local economy.
With the noise created by the anti's I doubt well see anything like that in 2010, but if everybody stopped looking for reasons to be against Gaelic and got behind it - we would make more than recoup the short term outlay - plus the long term benefits would keep accruing.
Cost is not an issue but know matter how often its explained - it keeps re-emerging.
Just out of interest, how much is the cost?
Going from 2008 satatistical data from wales the additional cost of an average bilingual trunk road sign over mono-lingual is £100.
Therefore, the additional cost of erecting 20 bilingual trunk road signs around Caithness would be £2,000 - not far off my council tax bill - which I would gladly ask the council to divert to the signs - but they dont come out of the Councils budget anyway !!!
Before anybody goes an about the cost of replacing whole signs overnight - The policy I beleive is that the signs only get replaced with bi-lingually when their due to changed anyway.
On the issue of safety - the anti's appear to be out against bi-lingaul signage anywhere - even inside buildings.
Amy-Winehouse
22-Mar-09, 22:03
NO not now & not ever.
There is a recession on & to waste what would be thousands of pounds on unwanted pointless signs when 100`s are losing their jobs would be nothing less than absolutely scandalous.
I could see the point in them being in Polish but even then it would be criminal to spend money so unwittingly. Ive ranted on about this subject before but as Ive said Caithness doesnt speak Gaelic nor want it so NO
From Wikipedia.
Okay, Rheghead, you appear to be getting your info from Wikipedia - I'm getting mine from the respected local historian who, literally, wrote the book on Caithness placenames. He's an old man, he's not anti-Gaelic at all, but his blood pressure has been significantly raised recently because, until now, Caithness has welcomed the Gaels and the Gaels have respected Caithness and, until now, the history of Caithness was quite safe. It's the aggressive blanket implementation of this policy that's doing the damage - the Gaelic committee are shooting themselves in the foot - if only the Highland Council would just accept and respect the facts about our local placenames there would be no problem.
I just begin to be worried when our local, neutral historians start worrying - there are two camps to this argument, and most of our local historians stand firmly between them, simply wanting to protect the heritage of Caithness. That involves NOT making up Gaelic names for places that have never previously had Gaelic names - that's all.
Our placenames DO need protecting, just as the Gaelic language does.
You say Picts didn't speak Gaelic - were you there?!?!?[lol] Attempts to unmask the language the Picts used reveals a complicated history with little evidence. The placenames of Caithness are a crucial part of that meagre evidence. Don't risk destroying this evidence for the sake of getting more money from the Mod 2010 or wanting to paint a "chocolate box" image of the Highlands for tourists - that's just silly.
Let's agree that our local heritage is worth treasuring and be a bit selective with the Gaelic signage - it will be worth it in the long term.
Caithness did not come under Scottish Rule untill 1196 and even then was more inclined towards it's Norse roots. It was only in the mid 1400s thaqt the Norse influence declined as a result of the Sinclairs being created Earls of Caithness and even they were of Norman (ie Norse) origin.
Humerous Vegetable
23-Mar-09, 11:06
I voted no because I believe the whole policy is a piece of nonsense, much like the unnecessary extravagence of the Edinburgh tram system. However I don't think a referendum is going to change policy, because no organisation listens to popular opinion unless it happens to co-incide with their own views.
weeboyagee
23-Mar-09, 11:07
Had a laugh today over the Gaelic thing - a friend of mine was looking for someone to do a short intro to a local Arts event in Gaelic, y'know "Hello & welcome" sort of thing (funders are so demanding these days...) I suggested a few names to her, but it turns out that the Melvich Gaelic Choir are singing somewhere South that weekend - and she can find NO other Gaelic speakers in Caithness to do the job - can you believe it?!![lol]
I think we should just have special signs that SING the Gaelic as you walk by them instead - much more fun & much more culturally appropriate!;)
Sad. I could list more than 20 without thinking and none of them in a choir. Just depends on who you know, who you mix with and whether they feel comfortable in your company about them letting you know they speak Gaelic. I said it before - the Gaels in the county cringe at the warm feeling inside that is created every time they have to put up with this....not.
I'm starting to become embarrassed about the whole damn thing - the Caithness appeal to the rest of the world is starting to become a good educational subject for funding - never mind billingual signs. We elect those to govern us - and are governed. We won't like all of the governance but unfortunately we can't pick and choose the bits that we like and stuff the bits we don't. And when it comes to the bits we don't like we act like French Farmers with an EU policy problem.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
23-Mar-09, 11:09
I voted no. Caithness was never a Gaelic speaking county. Do we start putting signs in Polish or French or any other language as well:lol:
Wrong.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
23-Mar-09, 11:13
Ah, but Each, we ARE losing something:
The NE corner of Caithness (the part where most of the roads are) is possibly the ONLY place in the Highlands and Islands where the placenames haven't (yet!) been influenced by modern Gaelic. Any Gaelic influence you might detect is from the ancient Picts and this blend of Pictish and Norse in our placenames IS unique in the Highlands. Whether people ever spoke Gaelic here is not particularly relevant - it's the placenames that are needing to be protected.
By making up modern Gaelic names for placenames that have survived without that influence for hundreds of years, the Highland Council is, effectively, trashing our unique local history as reflected by our unique local Norse/Pictish placenames. A nightmare for historians of the future.
I call that a loss.:(
It's only a loss if you loose it. It's not being lost - it's being complimented. And again - as with all your points tootler - this is only a balanced opinion and not necissarily a reflection of my own personal view ;)
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
23-Mar-09, 11:14
Historically I would disagree on virtually every point that you made there.
The pictish language isn't Gaelic.
The place names on the OS map for hills rivers and a lot of town were influenced by 18th-19th century Gaelic when army mappers drew the first maps of the area.
A 'blend' of norse and pictish is not unique to our area.
CLAP, CLAP, CLAP, CLAP,....... YAHOO - Well said. I agree.
(cough,.... of course!)
WBG :cool:
Mey is Gaelic.
Okay, Rheghead, my instinct was that Mey's not Gaelic, but it's so unlikely for you to be wrong (you're usually so level headed) that I just went to check with my old friend before I posted to correct you.
Apparently Mey is Norse - same as the "My" of Mybster - meaning moor or bog. My old friendly expert's very interested to know what made you think it was Gaelic, especially as it sits so firmly within the Norse border in the area where there is actually no evidence of Gaelic in the placenames?
If you plot all the Norse "ster" names (Lybster, Bilbster, etc - the easiest definitely pure Norse, non-Gaelic names for a layman to find) and then draw a line across the map where they stop, you can easily find the clear border where the Gaeldom ended and the Norse kingdom began. Although there's a blur on the border along this line, as you'd expect where two cultures meet, there is just no doubt that the further NE you go, you totally lose all sign of Gaelic in the placenames.
I'm not quite sure what real (non-Wikipedia) evidence you have to back up your assertion that this clearly delineated border between the Gaelic and Norse cultures, which is only demonstrable by examining the placenames, is not totally unique? It really is. Again, I checked with my old friend and he's absolutely sure it is. He'd like to know where else in Scotland you think the Border between Gaeldom and the Norse culture is so clearly defined in the placenames? Where else do the Gaelic names vanish from the map, totally giving way to the Norse and the pre-Norse languages? Just because this line doesn't match the border of Caithness doesn't mean you should ignore it. In fact that's all the more reason to protect it from being lost forever in an ignorant mess of 21st century invented-by-Highland-Council Gaelic placenames.
Rheghead, I'm really surprised by your postings on this - usually I find myself in agreement with you on most things!
Protecting the unique heritage of Caithness is very important to me. I hope it's important to you, too.
Okay, Rheghead, you appear to be getting your info from Wikipedia - I'm getting mine from the respected local historian who, literally, wrote the book on Caithness placenames. He's an old man, he's not anti-Gaelic at all, but his blood pressure has been significantly raised recently because, until now, Caithness has welcomed the Gaels and the Gaels have respected Caithness and, until now, the history of Caithness was quite safe. It's the aggressive blanket implementation of this policy that's doing the damage - the Gaelic committee are shooting themselves in the foot - if only the Highland Council would just accept and respect the facts about our local placenames there would be no problem.
I just begin to be worried when our local, neutral historians start worrying - there are two camps to this argument, and most of our local historians stand firmly between them, simply wanting to protect the heritage of Caithness. That involves NOT making up Gaelic names for places that have never previously had Gaelic names - that's all.
Our placenames DO need protecting, just as the Gaelic language does.
You say Picts didn't speak Gaelic - were you there?!?!?[lol] Attempts to unmask the language the Picts used reveals a complicated history with little evidence. The placenames of Caithness are a crucial part of that meagre evidence. Don't risk destroying this evidence for the sake of getting more money from the Mod 2010 or wanting to paint a "chocolate box" image of the Highlands for tourists - that's just silly.
Let's agree that our local heritage is worth treasuring and be a bit selective with the Gaelic signage - it will be worth it in the long term.
Well said tootler!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Okay, Rheghead, my instinct was that Mey's not Gaelic, but it's so unlikely for you to be wrong (you're usually so level headed) that I just went to check with my old friend before I posted to correct you.
Apparently Mey is Norse - same as the "My" of Mybster - meaning moor or bog. My old friendly expert's very interested to know what made you think it was Gaelic, especially as it sits so firmly within the Norse border in the area where there is actually no evidence of Gaelic in the placenames?
Hi. My source was Roy Pedersen, Inverness councillor and gaelic speaker. With a name like Pedersen, perhaps he is a speaker of the norse branch of the gaelic language? :D
But Roy Pedersen, an Inverness councillor and a Gaelic speaker, said the Picts, by the ninth century, were a Gaelic-speaking community: "The language of the Picts in Caithness and elsewhere in Scotland was Gaelic. We have such names as Dounreay, Dunbeath, Mey – all prominent Caithness places – with Gaelic names.
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/War-of-words-over-Gaelic.3854359.jp
But then I disagree with him on his tendency to label the pictish language as Gaelic. Celtic would be more accurate I think, more like Old Welsh.:confused
However, a subsequent check with Donald Omand's Caithness Book confirms that Mey is Gaelic on p227.
I voted no, as I feel having place names in Gaelic is not a necessity or of benefit to justify the cost.
My personal opinion is that no matter who made the decision, Highland Council, Scottich Executive, they could have allocated the money to far better use, and even if the money is marked as a Gaelic resource surely it could be spend more efficiently, perhaps to promote Gaelic more widely and positively, producing more benefits than it being on a sign.
Some people have mentioned about the names in Gaelic being part of the Caithness Culture and history (I do not dispute Gaelic is part of it) I personally don't think anyone wanting to find out or understand the Caithness Culture/History is going to look for it on a sign.
Sun Circle
23-Mar-09, 20:37
I agree with why change a name, nobody is proposing to change any names with bilingual signs, but just offer an alternative name in one of the languages of the area's cultural past. But you are completely wrong about gaelic culture having a tiny influence on Caithness.
If the gaelic culture had had a significant influence on Caithness then we'd all be speaking with a gaelic lilt rather than the wonderful and exquisite Caithness dialect which has done well to survive centuries of mixed influences from incoming dialects (one of which is Gaelic).
And what of the Norse influence in Caithness? Is it to be forgotten? Overwritten on our signposts with a false Gaelic identity, just to please the tourists with the tartan tat they so love?
Since the place-names are not Gaelic and have never been Gaelic, then why start making up "modern" Gaelic translations for them now? Its just completely crazy. I have nothing against Gaelic signage for Gaelic placenames, and I just love to see the amazing Gaelic names when we travel out west. But to whitewash Gaelic names across the whole of the Highlands is just plain wrong. It erodes the heritage of indigenous placenames rather than supporting it. I'm very happy to see Dunbeath in Gaelic if it is a Gaelic placename but its just madness for the Scottish Executive to be wasting our money translating names that don't need translation.
Sun Circle
I'm very happy to see Dunbeath in Gaelic if it is a Gaelic placename
So let me get this right. You are happy to have a English/Gaelic bilingual sign for a placename that is already Gaelic or Anglicised Gaelic? :lol:
Then you went on to say...
but its just madness for the Scottish Executive to be wasting our money translating names that don't need translation.
Sun Circle
Oh the irony...[lol]
Mmmmm this comment you made says it all and to be honest I think this very line is out of order I take it you have something against incomers??
Gaelic whether you like it or not is ALL part of Scotland culture whether your up here or in the west theres no getting away from it.:confused
( Caithness dialect which has done well to survive centuries of mixed influences from incoming dialects (one of which is Gaelic).
If the gaelic culture had had a significant influence on Caithness then we'd all be speaking with a gaelic lilt rather than the wonderful and exquisite Caithness dialect which has done well to survive centuries of mixed influences from incoming dialects (one of which is Gaelic).
And what of the Norse influence in Caithness? Is it to be forgotten? Overwritten on our signposts with a false Gaelic identity, just to please the tourists with the tartan tat they so love?
Since the place-names are not Gaelic and have never been Gaelic, then why start making up "modern" Gaelic translations for them now? Its just completely crazy. I have nothing against Gaelic signage for Gaelic placenames, and I just love to see the amazing Gaelic names when we travel out west. But to whitewash Gaelic names across the whole of the Highlands is just plain wrong. It erodes the heritage of indigenous placenames rather than supporting it. I'm very happy to see Dunbeath in Gaelic if it is a Gaelic placename but its just madness for the Scottish Executive to be wasting our money translating names that don't need translation.
Sun Circle
Sun Circle
23-Mar-09, 20:59
Going from 2008 satatistical data from wales the additional cost of an average bilingual trunk road sign over mono-lingual is £100.
Therefore, the additional cost of erecting 20 bilingual trunk road signs around Caithness would be £2,000 - not far off my council tax bill - which I would gladly ask the council to divert to the signs - but they dont come out of the Councils budget anyway !!!
Before anybody goes an about the cost of replacing whole signs overnight - The policy I beleive is that the signs only get replaced with bi-lingually when their due to changed anyway.
On the issue of safety - the anti's appear to be out against bi-lingaul signage anywhere - even inside buildings.
The extra cost will not be in the erecting of the signposts, or the printing of the extra names... the cost is in the ludicrous fact that there will have to be at least one person (and I imagine many more people) who will be employed on a decent salary (one would hope!) to invent modern Gaelic translations of placenames that have never had a Gaelic translation before, ever, in the history of the universe! Rather than preserving culture, we are paying people to invent a whole new future for gaelic.
Now I've nothing against a whole new future for Gaelic - it would be just rosy. I'm actually rather interested in learning to speak the Gaelic myself, since I love to sing. The gaelic culture is a magnificent one and one that should not be lost.
But it makes me really furious that the Gaelic culture is being used as a blunt tool to scratch their mark across the Highlands willy-nilly thus undermining the very real and even more under-threat cultures that co-exist in Scotland alongside the Gaelic.
Placenames that are Norse should be promoted to tourists as Norse. If there are to be alternative names on these placenames it should be reflecting the local dialect. I know others have suggested it in jest before, but I'm not being facetious here. It really is crucially important that the Caithness dialect is not lost and one of the best ways to keep it is to do exactly what the Gaels want to do with Gaelic - put it on our signs.
In most of Caithness the native language is not Gaelic it is Caithness dialect.
In most of Caithness the placenames have no Gaelic influence.
Please do not rob Caithness of its interesting heritage by whitewashing it with Gaelic.
Sun Circle
Sun Circle
23-Mar-09, 21:06
Mmmmm this comment you made says it all and to be honest I think this very line is out of order I take it you have something against incomers??
Gaelic whether you like it or not is ALL part of Scotland culture whether your up here or in the west theres no getting away from it.:confused
My parents are incomers - my mother is English, my Dad is from Glasgow... I was born in Caithness. So I have nothing against incomers - I'm an incomer myself!
Gaelic has an influence throughout Scotland but it is not the only influence. And when you say it is ALL part of Scottish culture it is not the only part of Scottish culture.
I would have thought that the Gaelic speakers who have fought so hard against the odds to keep Gaelic alive would understand the situation in the northeast corner of Caithness. We are crying out to KEEP OUR HERITAGE - Gaels have been whitewashed by the English culture for centuries. Now you are getting your own back by whitewashing all the other sub-cultures that make up this great land of Scotland.
I really have nothing against Gaelic, Gaelic speakers or Gaelic heritage. I just believe that Caithness is special in that the Gaelic influence was small. Would you advocate Gaelic signs in Orkney or Shetland? (I bet you would, even though they have no place there!)
Sun Circle
23-Mar-09, 21:15
So let me get this right. You are happy to have a English/Gaelic bilingual sign for a placename that is already Gaelic or Anglicised Gaelic? :lol:
OK, so laugh at me. If the names in Gaelic looked anything like the names in English it would be funny. But as we know, Gaelic placenames that sound the same in English and Gaelic look completely different. So there is a need to translate Gaelic placenames into Gaelic.
There is NO NEED to translate non-Gaelic placenames because it is the same as translating them into French, German, Polish or Russian. It can be done, but it does nothing to enhance or preserve the heritage of the placename - in fact it erodes the heritage of the placename by giving the impression to travellers that it is a Gaelic placename.
OK, so laugh at me. If the names in Gaelic looked anything like the names in English it would be funny. But as we know, Gaelic placenames that sound the same in English and Gaelic look completely different. So there is a need to translate Gaelic placenames into Gaelic.
There is NO NEED to translate non-Gaelic placenames because it is the same as translating them into French, German, Polish or Russian. It can be done, but it does nothing to enhance or preserve the heritage of the placename - in fact it erodes the heritage of the placename by giving the impression to travellers that it is a Gaelic placename.
Now we are getting to the crux of the whole thing. We do translate German, French or Russian placenames into English as their language and alphabets are different. How does our translation of a Russian name such as Moscow from the Russian erode Russian identity? :)
The alphabet in English and Gaelic are different. There are only 18 letters in the Gaelic language so it will be illegible to a Gaelic speaker to read an English word or even an anglicised norse word and import it into Gaelic 'as is', therefore a translation is needed. No whitewashing of history, just a translation into another language of Caithness.
The importation of English words into Gaelic does erode their language that is why a translation of Caithness placenames is important.
weeboyagee
23-Mar-09, 23:31
It really is crucially important that the Caithness dialect is not lost and one of the best ways to keep it is to do exactly what the Gaels want to do with Gaelic - put it on our signs.
Not the Gaels - your Councillors.
In most of Caithness the placenames have no Gaelic influence.
WRONG. Yet again.
do not rob Caithness of its interesting heritage by whitewashing it with Gaelic.
Complimentary - not "in place of" therefore what does "whitewashing" mean?
WBG :cool:
I have enough difficulty pronouncing the town names in english, so i'd stand no chance if they were all in Gaelic.:lol:
But then you travel to another country and most of there signs are not in english, and we have difficulty trying to find our way round. So i think it does not matter which way it goes to be honest.
But i still voted no.Sorry.You can read English so what does it matter if signs also have gaelic words?
Cedric Farthsbottom III
24-Mar-09, 00:41
I voted yes for gaelic on the signs.Not because I can speak or read gaelic.The amount of money it will cost is pittance.I won't read the gaelic part,English suits me fine.Its tourism that will benefit from it.The amount of money spent on the signs will be nothing compared to the amount the folk will spend to visit.
We are crying out to KEEP OUR HERITAGE
Well said, Sun Circle! :D
It's really not worth arguing with folk who have already made up their mind and simply do not value the unique heritage of Caithness.:roll: Luckily the vast majority of Caithnessians DO value our genuine heritage rather than the proposed chocolate-box version, so there's still some hope.
Funny how the Gaels just can't see the parallel with the government plastering the Western Isles with English signposts - it wasn't all that long ago, was it?! I wonder if any of them can even remember how that felt.:(
Whitewater
24-Mar-09, 00:54
I have enjoyed reading through this thread, many interesting opinions. As I said earlier, I voted no. I think it is a waste of money because unless we have major repairs carried out on our road systems there won't be any point in erecting road signs in any language as the roads are rapidly becoming almost impossible to drive on in many areas.
Well said, Sun Circle! :D
It's really not worth arguing with folk who have already made up their mind and simply do not value the unique heritage of Caithness.:roll: Luckily the vast majority of Caithnessians DO value our genuine heritage rather than the proposed chocolate-box version, so there's still some hope.
Funny how the Gaels just can't see the parallel with the government plastering the Western Isles with English signposts - it wasn't all that long ago, was it?! I wonder if any of them can even remember how that felt.:(Why would a few sign posts bother you?
Mmmmm this comment you made says it all and to be honest I think this very line is out of order I take it you have something against incomers??
Gaelic whether you like it or not is ALL part of Scotland culture whether your up here or in the west theres no getting away from it.:confused
( Caithness dialect which has done well to survive centuries of mixed influences from incoming dialects (one of which is Gaelic).
I share absolutely no affinity with Gaelic culture. As I also do not share a Grampian heritage or a Glaswegian influence in my life.
Scotland is a big country with a mixed culture.
The Gaelic culture need only apply to where it was prominent. That does not include Caithness, where it never was prominent, though it was felt on the fringes of the county.
Caithness, as a county, is being misrepresented.
GetWithTheTimes
24-Mar-09, 01:46
Cost is not an issue but know matter how often its explained - it keeps re-emerging.
Micahel Foxely - Leader of Councils Admin put it...
"Then there is this nonsense about cost. Bilingual signs cost virtually the
same as the single language signs."
The most recent detailed economic study carried out into the economic benefits of the Mod to the local community where its held concluded that the Mod contributed nearly £1m to the local economy.
With the noise created by the anti's I doubt well see anything like that in 2010, but if everybody stopped looking for reasons to be against Gaelic and got behind it - we would make more than recoup the short term outlay - plus the long term benefits would keep accruing.
well if cost is not an issue then i think all the gaelic speakers and wanters of gaelic signs should fork out for it themselves and all those who dont want or use the gaelic language have to put not one pennie toward it, scots dialect is more widely used than gaelic so if anything i think scots language should be promoted and the gaelic which originates from old irish not scottish should not be put in front of our real dialect and linguistic history, our scots language comes from a germanic background and is more widely used than gaelic
I voted yes for gaelic on the signs.Not because I can speak or read gaelic.The amount of money it will cost is pittance.I won't read the gaelic part,English suits me fine.Its tourism that will benefit from it.The amount of money spent on the signs will be nothing compared to the amount the folk will spend to visit.
are you seriously implying that more tourists will come to scotland to read gaelic signs they dont even understand??? tourists come here for the scenery and scottish history not the gaelic language especially not gaelic road signs, if you think that gaelic road signs are what attracts the tourists then you are just weird lol do you go to russia or germany to look at their signs??? i dont think so somehow so what makes you think that foreign people come all the way to scotland to read gaelic signs rofl hahahaha
However, a subsequent check with Donald Omand's Caithness Book confirms that Mey is Gaelic on p227.
Hi Rheghead,
Just checked with our local placenames expert and he audibly sighed when he heard what your source was!
Here's how it is - Donald Omand wrote the placenames chapter in the early editions of the Caithness Book himself, and although he's a very well respected scholar of Caithness history, he's no placenames expert (he freely admitted this himself.)
If you look in the "New Caithness Book" - the more recent and much improved edition - Donald had by then realised that it was better to ask a genuine PhD placename scholar to write this chapter and the error regarding Mey has been corrected. The same expert, in a different book, has gone into great detail over the orgins of Mey - it was, as long ago as 1250, mapped as Mai (no "gh" in sight!) and is undoubtedly of Norse origin. In fact, in the New Caithness Book she has a lovely double page spread with two maps - one with Gaelic names, the other with Norse - clearly showing the beautiful border of Gaeldom.
It's petty fighting over each individual placename, (so let's not do that any more?) but it is important for the modern Gaelic activists to accept that there was, historically, a definite northern border to the Gaeldom, and that border clearly lies right across Caithness, roughly where the railway track and road between Thurso & Wick now run. This is Gaelic history as well as ours - I'd have thought they'd be interested in protecting that as much as we're interested in protecting and promoting it as the southern Norse border?! Could we not just agree to celebrate the fact that this border existed instead of denying it? I think it's worth highlighting to tourists and locals alike and it's of real historical interest and importance.
Of course this doesn't mean Gaelic can't be promoted locally - it's lovely that our kids are now being exposed to this beautiful and ancient language through the Feis (well done, Celia!) and build up to the Mod 2010 (well done, WBG!) But let's also respect, protect and celebrate the REAL heritage of Caithness, which, as I keep saying, is genuinely unique.:D
Tootler for Prime Minister
Hi Rheghead,
Just checked with our local placenames expert and he audibly sighed when he heard what your source was!
Here's how it is - Donald Omand wrote the placenames chapter in the early editions of the Caithness Book himself, and although he's a very well respected scholar of Caithness history, he's no placenames expert (he freely admitted this himself.)
If you look in the "New Caithness Book" - the more recent and much improved edition - Donald had by then realised that it was better to ask a genuine PhD placename scholar to write this chapter and the error regarding Mey has been corrected. The same expert, in a different book, has gone into great detail over the orgins of Mey - it was, as long ago as 1250, mapped as Mai (no "gh" in sight!) and is undoubtedly of Norse origin. In fact, in the New Caithness Book she has a lovely double page spread with two maps - one with Gaelic names, the other with Norse - clearly showing the beautiful border of Gaeldom.
It's petty fighting over each individual placename, (so let's not do that any more?) but it is important for the modern Gaelic activists to accept that there was, historically, a definite northern border to the Gaeldom, and that border clearly lies right across Caithness, roughly where the railway track and road between Thurso & Wick now run. This is Gaelic history as well as ours - I'd have thought they'd be interested in protecting that as much as we're interested in protecting and promoting it as the southern Norse border?! Could we not just agree to celebrate the fact that this border existed instead of denying it? I think it's worth highlighting to tourists and locals alike and it's of real historical interest and importance.
Of course this doesn't mean Gaelic can't be promoted locally - it's lovely that our kids are now being exposed to this beautiful and ancient language through the Feis (well done, Celia!) and build up to the Mod 2010 (well done, WBG!) But let's also respect, protect and celebrate the REAL heritage of Caithness, which, as I keep saying, is genuinely unique.:D
I don't have the 'New' Caithness Book so I can't confirm this or concede that your expert is is a superior expert than Donald Omand.
We have sgeir bhan on Stroma, Latheron is Gaelic as well. Knockglass, Laid, . Portnellan.Tannach, Torvaich, Traich nan Ron, Inshag, Ishnamolt, Kilpheddir, Drumhollistan, The Clow, Carnavagry, Crask, Dalnaha, Dalnawillan, Balintra, Achimenach Altnabreac, Balantsionach, Barnaclavan, Buleney, Buldoo, Buolfruich ,Glutt, Bardnaheich, Achalone, Achinvish, Achnamine, Garvary, Baladaich, Ballachly, Bardintulloch, The Ord and the pinnacle of our county, Morven.
I voted 'Maybe' for bilingual signs. I do concede that a norse list will be longer but this has nothing to do with Democracy by numbers but everything with Democracy by representation of minorities. Gaelic would be an official language of Caithness if it were ever decided upon, not by the power of democracy but by scholars such as Mr Omand and your 'expert'.
Thats fine and dandy
They are Gaelic, no gripes with that
But as for the places which are Norse, they dont need a Gaelic name, hence the argument for Gaelic Signs
We have plenty of Gaelic place names in Caithness so why bother putting up a sign that was never Gaelic in the first place
Thats fine and dandy
They are Gaelic, no gripes with that
But as for the places which are Norse, they dont need a Gaelic name, hence the argument for Gaelic Signs
We have plenty of Gaelic place names in Caithness so why bother putting up a sign that was never Gaelic in the first place
As I have said before, Gaelic has only 18 letters, so it cannot import names into its vocabulary. To do that would be eroding the Gaelic language not preserving it.
wait, so you're against Road Signs! Well now I'm confused.
wait, so you're against Road Signs! Well now I'm confused.
Sorry, eh?:confused
As I have said before, Gaelic has only 18 letters, so it cannot import names into its vocabulary. To do that would be eroding the Gaelic language not preserving it.
I thought you were arguing against Gaelic signs there! I assume the importing of names refers to changing a name that isnt Gaelic, eg Thurso, to a Gaelic name...
wood2good
24-Mar-09, 15:58
Quote me if im wrong but i ll think you find there is gaelic for Thurso I think its "Inbhir Theorsa" so no need to invent a name ;)
Oh no you're probably right wood2good, im sure thers a Gaelic word for everything nowadays, but thats not the point....uhgh cant be bothered explaining myself anymore! Just read tootlers posts
Can we take it then that - According to toolers post - you support galeic signs on the A9 North through Caithness to Latheron and then West along the A9 to Thurso and onwards to Raey.
I would say that that would cover most of the Trunk Road network in Caithness.
I dont think anyone is talking about signage on the miles of backroads through Caithness.
I would say 20 - 30 signs ought to do it - £2000 well spent if you ask me.
It means that we recognise and respect the fact that there are still Gaelic speakers in Caithness - it repects the boundary between norse caithness and the rest (I dont agree with this over generalisation but would accept it as a compromise).
The cost will more than be repaid by the benefits of having the Mod in Caithness.
Are we all agreed - Hoorah ! :D
Now somebody go an tell the councillors...
Sun Circle
24-Mar-09, 21:55
I don't have the 'New' Caithness Book so I can't confirm this or concede that your expert is is a superior expert than Donald Omand.
We have sgeir bhan on Stroma, Latheron is Gaelic as well. Knockglass, Laid, . Portnellan.Tannach, Torvaich, Traich nan Ron, Inshag, Ishnamolt, Kilpheddir, Drumhollistan, The Clow, Carnavagry, Crask, Dalnaha, Dalnawillan, Balintra, Achimenach Altnabreac, Balantsionach, Barnaclavan, Buleney, Buldoo, Buolfruich ,Glutt, Bardnaheich, Achalone, Achinvish, Achnamine, Garvary, Baladaich, Ballachly, Bardintulloch, The Ord and the pinnacle of our county, Morven.
I voted 'Maybe' for bilingual signs. I do concede that a norse list will be longer but this has nothing to do with Democracy by numbers but everything with Democracy by representation of minorities. Gaelic would be an official language of Caithness if it were ever decided upon, not by the power of democracy but by scholars such as Mr Omand and your 'expert'.
I've just had a wee look at The New Caithness Book today, and its really worth a look for anyone interested in the history and culture of Caithness. (Thanks Tootler, for suggesting it!) It really is very illuminating. The lady that wrote the placenames chapter has a phD on the placenames of Caithness, so I think she is better qualified than any of us. The two maps that Tootler mentions are very graphic indeed in showing that there are many Gaelic placenames in the south-west of the county (some of which you mention above and the majority of which are tiny crofts, hillocks or streams which would not be on a signpost). There is a startling lack of Gaelic settlement names in the North-east of Caithness (in fact, none!). This shows the very clear boundary of where the Gaels came northwards, and on finding that the Norse had already bagged the good spots, they did not settle any further north. There is a corner of the Highlands which is clearly Norse in heritage, not Gaelic. Despite an influx of Gaelic speaking fisherfolk in the herring boom, the north-east of the county remained firmly enough rooted in the Norse to retain its dialect.
So our county is divided, Gaelic and Norse. The problem is that it is the Norse part of the county that flourished and now contains the major road network and all the major settlements of Caithness. The list of placenames I posted earlier were all Norse names and all extremely familiar to people in Caithness. These are the signs that are going to be in Gaelic, therefore giving our visitors the impression that they were Gaelic settlements, which they were not. I am very happy to see the Gaelic names re-instated on Gaelic settlements.
This Norse corner of the Highlands is in a minority compared with the vast Gaeldom to the south and west. So I'm all in favour of "democracy by representation of minorities". Let the minority that is north-east Caithness be represented PLEASE!!!!
Thank you so so much each youve said exactly what ive been thinking I agree 100% with everything you ve said.
Your seeing it from more than one angle thank you xxxx:lol:
Can we take it then that - According to toolers post - you support galeic signs on the A9 North through Caithness to Latheron and then West along the A9 to Thurso and onwards to Raey.
I would say that that would cover most of the Trunk Road network in Caithness.
I dont think anyone is talking about signage on the miles of backroads through Caithness.
I would say 20 - 30 signs ought to do it - £2000 well spent if you ask me.
It means that we recognise and respect the fact that there are still Gaelic speakers in Caithness - it repects the boundary between norse caithness and the rest (I dont agree with this over generalisation but would accept it as a compromise).
The cost will more than be repaid by the benefits of having the Mod in Caithness.
Are we all agreed - Hoorah ! :D
Now somebody go an tell the councillors...
Sun Circle
24-Mar-09, 22:01
Tootler for Prime Minister
I'll second that! Or maybe a councillor to start with... Tootler could be another of those pesky local councillors who actually dare to support the population they represent in their quest for recognition of our unique heritage.
Its unique alright.... you said it!!
I'll second that! Or maybe a councillor to start with... Tootler could be another of those pesky local councillors who actually dare to support the population they represent in their quest for recognition of our unique heritage.
Sun Circle
24-Mar-09, 22:12
As I have said before, Gaelic has only 18 letters, so it cannot import names into its vocabulary. To do that would be eroding the Gaelic language not preserving it.
Let me get this straight, Rheghead. You are saying that our ancient Norse placenames must be transliterated into the 18-letter Gaelic alphabet so that any non-English speaking Gaels travelling through the county won't get lost? You really are supporting the minority of the minorities there!
By the way, I call it whitewashing because it is taking a very broad brush with Gaelic on it and painting the whole of the Highlands as if there were no diversity of cultural history at all. By the time all these signs are up, Caithness will look like it was always a part of Gaeldom (which it was not!)
The Gaels have too much political power in a 21st century Scotland. That and friends in high places I would suggest. :cool:
Weve been called insular and prejudiced in Caithness because of our opposition to bi-lingual signs. Caithness may well be a fountain of prejudice but I can assure the Gaels they are not alone in feeling it's bite.
As for insular, caithness has opened it's arms to settlers and visitors for a long time so those criticisms are unjustified.
What is it then that riles the Caithness people and through them the Caithness councillors about this issue? I think it's the same feeling the Gaels have when they insist on their demands being met. It's a sense of belonging. I'm sure the Gaels will relate to that. We have it in Caithness too, but it seems to be different than yours. I suppose it's a Norse thing. [evil] It's stronger in Orkney and Shetland just like Gaeldom is stronger in the Wesetrn Isles.
Anyway! What is this Gael movement? Who are they? What are their long term objectives?
Sun Circle
24-Mar-09, 22:45
Now we are getting to the crux of the whole thing. We do translate German, French or Russian placenames into English as their language and alphabets are different. How does our translation of a Russian name such as Moscow from the Russian erode Russian identity? :)
Imagine if you went to Russia and said, "all of your signposts must have an English translation on them because we think it would be great". They say... "OK, lets go for it!" So, several years on, and quite a few dollars well spent, a visitor from Africa visits Russia for the first time. Do you think that they would get the impression that Russia was once a colony of the United Kingdom?
Of course it erodes the heritage and changes the identity of an area to go plastering it with signs in a language that does not belong there.
I know, I know, before you start shouting, I concede that there were (and are!) Gaelic speakers in Caithness, as we've established, especially in the south-west. All respect to them. But the Caithness dialect is every bit as important. I would go further, and say that Caithness dialect is more indigenous to the area. A predecessor of the Caithness dialect was spoken before the Gaels arrived - hence the reason they called Caithness the "Land of the Non-Gaels".
Caithness Dialect is the indigenous language... some Gaelic has been spoken beside it, but the fact that the dialect has survived is something to be celebrated, not swept under the Gaelic signs.
Sorry for harping on, but I think this issue is really important. The Highland Council don't care two hoots about Caithness or its heritage. IT would be great if our local councillors can stop it happening. If the signs do go up, we will eventually get the gaelic signs changed to something more appropriate (if not officially, then certainly unofficially!) I'm going to shut up now - the poll speaks for itself and I shall speak no longer!
Sun Circle
24-Mar-09, 22:53
Quote me if im wrong but i ll think you find there is gaelic for Thurso I think its "Inbhir Theorsa" so no need to invent a name ;)
OK, so I couldn't hold my tongue! Just one more thing....
Thurso is the indigenous name. "Inbhir Theorsa" is what Gaelic folk call it.
In the same way that Uluru is the indigenous Aboriginal name for a place which English folk call Ayers Rock.
Just because you have a name for it, doesn't make it Gaelic and doesn't mean you own it or have any right to a place on the signposts!
Ok, that's me shutting up now. Really. Honest.
You said it much better than i could say it Sun Circle. The Gaels need to understand we have a different cultural archetype flowing through our blood. :eek: It's not personal towards them as they seem to imply but it's a defence of our own heritage.
Let me get this straight, Rheghead. You are saying that our ancient Norse placenames must be transliterated into the 18-letter Gaelic alphabet so that any non-English speaking Gaels travelling through the county won't get lost? You really are supporting the minority of the minorities there!
You have it all wrong.
What I am saying is that the Scottish Government are pushing the promotion of the Gaelic language so that Scottish people can use it as a first language if they choose to do it.
I don't necassarily agree with that but I can understand what they are doing. I can see that a Gaelic revival in our primary schools and also bring it more accessible via signs and other visible media to more people will unite all Scots in a language that is identifiable with only Scotland.
Whitewashing a culture is more akin to what the Norse did 800-1200 AD, ethnic cleansing anyone?
The Highland Council don't care two hoots about Caithness or its heritage.
Truly if that were not just an over reaction on your part then Gaelic mono-lingual signs would be the ones we would be discussing right now.;)
Can we take it then that - According to toolers post - you support galeic signs on the A9 North through Caithness to Latheron and then West along the A9 to Thurso and onwards to Raey.
I would say that that would cover most of the Trunk Road network in Caithness.
I dont think anyone is talking about signage on the miles of backroads through Caithness.
I would say 20 - 30 signs ought to do it - £2000 well spent if you ask me.
It means that we recognise and respect the fact that there are still Gaelic speakers in Caithness - it repects the boundary between norse caithness and the rest (I dont agree with this over generalisation but would accept it as a compromise).
The cost will more than be repaid by the benefits of having the Mod in Caithness.
Are we all agreed - Hoorah ! :D
Now somebody go an tell the councillors...
Pretty much, just dont give Thurso a Gaelic sign name cos its never been Gaelic!! You can give Achvaharhashccahcahcahcachheasieanloigeachdale a Gaelic sign name all you want just nothing that doesnt need a Gaelic name.
Sun Circle
25-Mar-09, 10:50
Can we take it then that - According to toolers post - you support galeic signs on the A9 North through Caithness to Latheron and then West along the A9 to Thurso and onwards to Raey
Just to clarify the important point of where the edge of Gaeldom actually was:
I would support Gaelic signs on the A9 North as far as Latheron, but no further north!
I would support Gaelic signs on the A836 (north coast road) from the west up until Reay, but no further east than Reay.
Thurso, Wick and all the major settlements in Caithness are Norse in origin and should not be given Gaelic signposts.
Really, I will shut up now! Go and speak to the councillors - I may even have to write to them myself now we have clarified a solution! Thanks Each.... can you agree to this?
just back from holiday and looking in..
Am I right that 98.83% of Scottish people do not speak Gaelic? - just a thought.
Just to clarify the important point of where the edge of Gaeldom actually was:
I would support Gaelic signs on the A9 North as far as Latheron, but no further north!
I would support Gaelic signs on the A836 (north coast road) from the west up until Reay, but no further east than Reay.
Thurso, Wick and all the major settlements in Caithness are Norse in origin and should not be given Gaelic signposts.
Really, I will shut up now! Go and speak to the councillors - I may even have to write to them myself now we have clarified a solution! Thanks Each.... can you agree to this?
I'll second that proposal Sun Circle. At least now the Gaels can claim a partial victory and us in Caithness a partial defeat. OK each?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A0idhealtachd
not a fan of wikipedia but it summarizes things quite well! i shud really go dig out my history books. where is that new caithness book that everyone harps on about, is that available locally
Are we all agreed - Hoorah !
Now somebody go an tell the councillors...
Wow! If only the rest of the world could negotiate like the orgers, we'd never have found ourselves in this mess.
Of course we don't mind Gaelic signposts in places where the placenames truly have Gaelic origin, just not in the unique "Norse corner"! I'd suggest they should locate that nice PhD lady who wrote her bit on placenames in the "New Caithness Book" and let her decide which names should have Gaelic signs and which shouldn't - she's a good neutral, educated third party - ideal!
Hey, Each, could you go and tell the councillors in Inverness - they're the ones that really need to know - and it would be so much better coming from a Gaelic supporter. (Maybe you could even explain it to them IN Gaelic!) And I'm sure WBG can explain it to our Gaelic friends who are organising the Mod 2010 - I know they've been really worried about the whole thing. (So have we!)
Oh, and could someone tell Bill Fernie, too?;)
Great solution, Each!! Now all we have to do is make it happen!:D:D
ps (Could someone maybe provide a Gaelic translation of "And they all lived happily ever after..." ?)
i feel so happy, so refreshed, a resolved argument on the org, its so beautiful
I'm glad to see that the anti's still have a sense of humour.
Because if you dont want Gaelic signage any further east than Reay nor and further north than latheron, you must be having a laugh !
(and you wonder why everybody outside the county thinks were a bunch of whingers !! )
Since you you cant accept a fair proposal...
I have an alternative for you - as the poll currently shows around 12.5% of orgers sport the signs.
I suggest we count up all the road signs in Caithness and make a proportion of the Bi-Lingual - how about linking the proportion ot the number of people in favour - 12.5%
I would think there about 2000 signs at least throughout the county - which would suggest that 250 should be bi-lingual -
A soultion which is truly representative of public opinion in Caithness - you cant say fairer than that !! :Razz
Because if you dont want Gaelic signage any further east than Reay nor and further north than latheron, you must be having a laugh !
Aw, Each, now I'm truly disappointed. I actually suggested letting the real placename expert decide which names had a Gaelic origin and have bilingual signs for just them. Of course there will be a mix along the border of the Gaeldom, which, right enough, is around about the A9.
I wasn't just having a laugh - protecting our heritage is a serious issue for me and this is a serious proposal. You're last post was just flippant and really unhelpful.:(
I suggest we count up all the road signs in Caithness and make a proportion of the Bi-Lingual - how about linking the proportion ot the number of people in favour - 12.5%
And, by the way, if you and your other Gaelic friends could accept this realistic and serious proposal, you'd probably find that the Caithness area of the Gaeldom contains at least 12.5% of the placenames - I suspect many more than that, actually.:D
Cedric Farthsbottom III
25-Mar-09, 21:14
Tins of shortbread,wee dolls wi kilts and a mini set of bagpipes.They wee keyrings wi the clan name and crest.Scots find them cheesy,but the tourists buy it.Gaelic sign names make a tourist think of Scottish culture.It has the same input as a wee saltire being placed on top of Edinburgh Castle or Wick and Thurso cooncil offices.We take it for granted,the tourists love it.The Scottish landscapes the winner though,ye cannae beat it.
Tootler
Unfortunately it appears that some are not prepared to except an olive branch, a genuine offer and instead saw it as an opportunity deliberately spin my words and to try pull a fast one....
The norse heritage is as much mine as anyone elses in Caithness and I am annoyed at the implication that I am trying to erase it or deny its existance. Just as I am annoyed at those who are trying to erase or deny the existance of Gaelic in the county.
(if you want to find whose damaging the pictish/norse heritage - ask youself whose allowing the wind farms free reign to trample all over the historic landscapes around camster ?)
I dont see this as a question of either gaelic or norse, but both gaelic and Norse. (as well as atomics - fishermen - crofters and every other strand of humanity that has come together to make up of our character)
Everyone in caithness will have their own experience of the different parts to varying degrees - to suggest that there is one homogonous caithness identity to which everyone subscribes is at best mistaken at worst direspectful.
There is one important distinction - The norse culture exists as an object of archeological study - perhaps there are faint traces in some aspects of caithness dialect (I'll take your word for it - its something important to you which you believe in whole heartedly) However Gaelic is still a living culture - it is still spoken and people with gaelic have a distinctive conception of place which is different from that of English speakers.
There are Gaelic speakers living in Thurso, the whole of the Gaelic community refer to it as Inbhir Theorsa, whether its on the news, in documentaries or general conversation, why shouldn't the Inbhir Theorsa appear on the road signs ?
Jings, I come back, and its started up again.
You know, I thought Tootler's idea was splendid. I mean all we 'Anti's' (you give us such a harsh name, 'Anti's' sounds like calling us Gaelic Nazi's or Gael Murderers. I prefer Caithness Lovers, or perhaps, Norse Huggers)
For you see, Each, which I presume is pronounced "achchchehenenenchaach" and stands for 'argumentative one', I think our idea is simple and sweet, not forgetting a backtrack on my previous outlook which was "If you see a Gaelic person punch them in the face!"
All we are saying is
Historically Gaelic = Gaelic Sign
Not Historically Gaelic = No Gaelic Sign
What a wonderful idea. I mean, to give Achvarsadale a Norse language, why, the cries of friends in the West would never cease! So, to give Wick a Gaelic name, it would beg the question.....WHY?!?!!?!?!?!? ITS SUCH A WASTE OF £250!!!!! OF MY OWN MONEY!! SO MANY THINGS TO DO WITH POLITICS MONEY TAX BLAH BLAH DO NOT INTEREST ME BUT THIS HAS MANAGED TO NOT SO MUCH ############### MY EARS AS BURN THEM OFF! I AM BY ALL MEANS A RATHER PLEASANT AMIABLE YOUNG MAN BUT NO, NO LONGER, I CANT HAVE THIS!!!
Tootler
Unfortunately it appears that some are not prepared to except an olive branch, a genuine offer and instead saw it as an opportunity deliberately spin my words and to try pull a fast one....
Each, I accept your olive branch. Full stop. This is about placenames and the value of the diversity of Caithness placenames. They're so historically important that people do PhDs about them!
If you think we should just draw an abitrary line with a ruler across the map and put bilingual signs on one side and leave the signs on the other, that's a better solution than doing nothing.
Putting Gaelic signs in the Norse area of Caithness will do only harm to the modern Gaelic cause, and I hope you can believe me when I say I don't want that to happen. Leaving the Norse corner without Gaelic signs will do good to the Gaelic cause - people will visit Caithness for what it is - the edge of the Gaeldom and enjoy our diverse culture.
I'd rather which signs were translated was decided by an expert, but, hey, Each, as you've suggested another way to protect that NE corner, I'm 100% with you.
It's important to get this sorted out before the Mod arrives. Gaelic signs in the Norse corner before then would simply be disastrous for Gaelic relations here - we need respect for our culture as much as they need respect for theirs.
Olive branch accepted. Now, how can we take this idea forward, Each?
pinotnoir
26-Mar-09, 10:00
I've voted maybe because I think much more needs to be researched into the fascinating history of Caithness before I can decide.
Why would our ancestors in the last 500 years not be speaking Gaelic if their land neighbours, with Gaelic as their language, were seperating them by considerable distance from fellow Scots speakers?
If, on the other hand, Gaelic was much more widely spoken in the County than now believed, what has caused history to deny that?
This is the stuff of University funded research and it would be great if future Caithness historians have had an interest sparked by this debate.
Sun Circle
26-Mar-09, 10:22
Unfortunately it appears that some are not prepared to except an olive branch, a genuine offer and instead saw it as an opportunity deliberately spin my words and to try pull a fast one....
Each, I'm genuinely sorry that you think I'm trying to pull a fast one. I just wanted to clarify what I understood Tootler to mean, since I thought you had mis-interpreted the description. I think the idea of letting the phD lady sort it out is a great one... and I think you'll find that almost all the names to the south and west of the A9 between Latheron and Thurso will be Gaelic, so there will be Gaelic signage on the road you described. Sorry if I made the situation more confused instead of clarifying!
If you can offer a true olive branch to preserve the Norse heritage in the NE corner of Caithness, then I'm sure the Caithness people would be more than happy to see a gaelic sign for Thurso, accepting of course that the Norse placenames to the east of Thurso are not signed in Gaelic. It would be a small concession that I feel sure everyone could agree on (even me!)
As Tootler said, lets get this sorted! We want the Mod, we love the gaelic culture and we love the Caithness dialect and the mixed heritage that makes up our history. There need be no animosity, just understanding and acceptance of the diversity of culture.
I sincerely hope you are in a postition to write to your councillors in Gaelic and put forward a compromise solution of your choice which will preserve both the Gaelic and Norse heritage of Caithness.
Sun Circle
26-Mar-09, 10:32
I don't have the technical brain require to set up a poll, but maybe someone who does could set up a poll with the following question:
Would you accept Gaelic signage on A9 from Latheron to Thurso (including Thurso signed in Gaelic) if a compromise solution could be found to preserve the norse heritage in the NE corner of Caithness?
Yes/No/Maybe
I'll vote YES, and I'd like to think we might get 100% voting the same - that would give the councillors something to work with!
Im just waiting for the day when roadsigns in London, Chester, Colchester etc are in English and Latin.
Why would our ancestors in the last 500 years not be speaking Gaelic if their land neighbours, with Gaelic as their language, were seperating them by considerable distance from fellow Scots speakers?
It is my understanding that the "Norse" corner of Caithness was populated by the Picts and then discovered from the North by the people of the sea. It then became the southern extreme of the kingdom of Norway, along with the Northern Isles of Orkney and Shetland. The people of Caithness knew nothing of Gaelic until the Gaels arrived from the south, centuries later. Norse (later becoming Caithness Dialect) has been spoken in Caithness for maybe as much as a thousand years - the Gaels were only here speaking Gaelic for a very short time by comparison, but they were made most welcome when they came.
For the most part, the Gaels and the non-Gaels then co-inhabited their respective parts of Caithness peacefully and intermigled to trade and wed, as all cultures do when they meet. It's just an amazing fact that the placenames still, to this day, show the border between these two peaceful communities so clearly.
Loads of research has been done already and I agree, it is fascinating.
The lady who's the expert on Caithness placenames apparently learned Gaelic before she did her PhD so that she could do the job properly. She doesn't fall into one camp or the other in this argument, she was only interested in revealing the true heritage of the place. We really should locate her and use her expertise to solve this problem.
Gaelic promotion in Caithness is very welcome, but it really must be about treasuring and building on the significant Gaelic heritage that we already have here, rather than the proposed dilution and denial of the Norse heritage through the proposed modern Gaelic translations of pure Norse placenames.
It's great that this debate has sparked people into thinking more about our heritage - that's what's been lacking so far and that's what's brought us to this uncomfortable situation.
I propose a return to living in peace and mutual respect with our Gaelic neighbours. Gaelic signs in the Gaeldom, leave the signs as they are in the Norse corner. It's so simple, and it really would be so easy - if only we could make our friends in Inverness understand how important this is. This would be a positive step towards treasuring the heritage of both cultures. This simple act could be a great stepping stone towards the positive future of Gaelic promotion in Caithness and some positivity regarding the Gaelic language is urgently needed here. The Feis and Mod organisers locally, who are doing a fantastic job, can unfortunately hardly open their mouths without the locals complaing to them about the proposed Gaelic roadsigns - it's not a constructive use of anyone's time and this situation needs to be brought to a peaceable conclusion sooner rather than later.
I'm still waiting for a Gaelic activist to come on here and tell us how to implement this proposed solution to what is a real, shared problem!!:D
pinotnoir
26-Mar-09, 14:45
What I consider myself in order are Caithnessian, Highlander, Scot and British, I feel no calling to my Scandinavian ancestry whatsoever- so, although I may be genetically linked to the Norse, my greater pull is to the Gael (my ancestors are from Latheron).
I agree with you on this,:)
What I consider myself in order are Caithnessian, Highlander, Scot and British, I feel no calling to my Scandinavian ancestry whatsoever- so, although I may be genetically linked to the Norse, my greater pull is to the Gael (my ancestors are from Latheron).
anneoctober
26-Mar-09, 15:08
I voted NO. I found bilingual signs confusing in Ross shire, double takes each time I looked. Spend the money on improving the roads! :eek:
What I consider myself in order are Caithnessian, Highlander, Scot and British, I feel no calling to my Scandinavian ancestry whatsoever- so, although I may be genetically linked to the Norse, my greater pull is to the Gael (my ancestors are from Latheron).
Ah yes, Pinotnoir, you may well be a Caithness Gael in the blood! And you must be feeling so lucky that the Gaelic language is enjoying a revival and you can appreciate your Gaelic-ness by choosing to speak it, sing it, read it and watch it on TV.
For people who've lived for generations in the NE of Caithness and still feel the Viking in their blood, they can appreciate their heritage by speaking their "Norse" Caithness Dialect and by enjoying the "always has been" Norse landscape of Canisbay or Freswick.
The thing that makes this particular area of Caithness really show its true Norse colours to the locals and visitors alike is the proliferation of beautiful pure Norse placenames. And that's what roadsigns are all about... they reflect our heritage -or they should.
Still waiting for Each to be true to his word... it was your suggestion, Each, and we've all thought it was a brilliant one... what next?
David Banks
26-Mar-09, 15:42
I agree with you on this,:)
What I consider myself in order are Caithnessian, Highlander, Scot and British, I feel no calling to my Scandinavian ancestry whatsoever- so, although I may be genetically linked to the Norse, my greater pull is to the Gael (my ancestors are from Latheron).
What I consider myself in order are Scarfskerry - ian ist, Caithnessian, Scot, Northern Hemisphere - ian ist igonian er (help)!
I am 100% from Scarfskerry, and can find plenty Scandinavian but no Gaelic roots in that place name
I am 100% Caithnessian and after living for a while in Calgary (Alberta), Caithness seemed to me to be the prairies of Scotland, with a mountain or two thrown for good luck, just like in Canada
I am 100% Scot
I am 100% of the Northern Hemisphere, having a Canadian for a mother and her mother was a MacLeod
But . . . some other family members have been (and some still are) in the southern hemisphere, so that makes me -- aw, shut up!
Let's have all the road warning signs in Caithness Dialect!
e.g.: in hospital zones, the instruction would be WHEESHT
I drew up a lovely sketch map which summarised what I think we are all prepared to accept - but have spent the last while trying to figure out how to post it - still at a loss.
My family tree goes back 4 generations to Simpsons in Wick back in the early 1800's ( and beyond probably) what I noticed at this point in our family tree is that I have 16 Great Great Grandparents, all with diferent surnames all from diferent parts of the country with diferent stories to tell.
I have discovered that our forebears were a lot more mobile than we might think. I can trace branches of the family moveing down from caithness, through Sutherland to Ross-shire to Edinburgh, Newzealand and Australia and all the way back again to Caithness - all with quite humble backgrounds - servants and farm labourers mostly.
Where do I fit in to the caithness identity debate... How much norse blood have I..... couldnt tell you ?
While in English, you might say - "where do I come from ?", the commonly used Gaelic equivelant is "Co as a tha mi ?" (co ass a ha mee) which actually means something quite diferent - Who am I from ? - your people rather than an attachment to a point in space. There are still many gaels today when you ask their name, they will give you fore or five generations worth of names - ian son of...son of...son of... etc.
This gets back to a point I made earlier about the Gaelic conception of place and intesting relates to the mobility of our forebears and a more ephemeral raltionship with physical realm. (which I suspect is lot closer to the vikings than the english speaking conception of place)
Co as a tha mi ? S'ann a Gallaibh a tha mi.
When I say I am from Caithness - I mean that they are my people.
Sin agaibh e ! - Tha mi Dochas (there you have it - I hope)
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu343/Each_bucket/Caithness-signs.jpg
If we are all happy - I will make representations as requested...
Your clutching at straws now Each even though I'm touched by your descriptive sense of belonging I told you in an earlier thread we have one in caithness too.
To be honest your argument for dual signs is weak. In fact, why does Gaeldom have this need? Surely it's easier and more peaceful and less expensive just to use English language signs. Not to mention the spat it's caused between communities and councillors.
Ive asked this before but who are the leaders of this present Gael movement? They have too much power in Scottish politics and this is just as much a kickback against political skullduggary as it is a defence of an ancient heritage.
Over the past 10 years the Gael movement has taken off and its hardly a coincidence that it coincides with the reformed Scottish parliament. Its like a struggle for a Scottish identity and the Gaels are at the forefront. They may have a claim on Caithness by the time the academics are finished but I'm delighted to see the defence Caithness is putting up.
I put my hands up and admit if everybody was like me there would be no Gaelic language. That's why it's admirable that enthusaists have kept the language alive but where is it going to stop. At Latheron I would suggest ;)
I hope that doesnt sound harsh because it's not meant to be, neither is it based on prejudice.It really goes quite deep and I think the Gaels should seriously consider that matter.
We look forward to welcoming you at the Mod Though. I love listening to the Gaelic language and a pulpit hugging wee free minister is one of the wonders of the world. Ive heard a few Mod gold medalists too including Wbg and the singing is fabulous.
Gleeber -
Why do you keep refer to we caithnessions and you gaels...
Sorry to burst your bubble but I'm caithness born and bred ! [disgust]
Gleeber -
Why do you keep refer to we caithnessions and you gaels...
Sorry to burst your bubble but I'm caithness born and bred ! [disgust]
I am aware you'r caithness born and bred and that post was rather disingenious and avoids the issue. [disgust]
Sun Circle
26-Mar-09, 22:17
Sin agaibh e ! - Tha mi Dochas (there you have it - I hope)
If we are all happy - I will make representations as requested...
Each, I'd like to hug you! (Or at least shake your hand!)
I can't speak for the rest of Caithness, but for myself I would think that the solution you propose is an excellent start to finding a solution that will keep everyone happy.
The line you have drawn along the trunk road pretty much matches up with the extent of the Gaelic names on the map in the New Caithness Book - Gaelic names to the South West and Norse names to the North-east.
I, for one, can accept that although Thurso has Norse origins through and through, it would have been near enough the edge of Gaeldom to have been a melting pot for both cultures to meet.
I do applaud you and hope that you are successful in winning over the Gaelic activists who have not yet understood the issues of Norse heritage in Caithness.
Many thanks and well done!
Sun Circle
I do applaud you and hope that you are successful in winning over the Gaelic activists who have not yet understood the issues of Norse heritage in Caithness.
Many thanks and well done!Sun Circle
So Thors town is expendable in your master plan?
Sun Circle
27-Mar-09, 09:48
Not at all, Gleeber. There was a border between the Gaeldom and the Norse lands but it was not drawn in a bright blue line. As Tootler said, the two peoples lived peacefully, they traded, they intermarried and although there is a clear limit to where the Gaelic placenames reach, the Gaelic people would have been trading in the close-by towns.
Obviously I would prefer it if only the Gaelic placenames were represented in Gaelic and the Norse placenames were kept. That is our ideal solution.
But the Gaelic Activists' ideal solution would be to mark every town in Caithness with Gaelic signs.
In order to preserve the Heritage of Caithness as a whole and to make it clear to the world that the NE of Caithness has a Norse heritage I feel that some compromise may be in order. If you are not happy with Thurso in Gaelic then perhaps it should be in Caithness Dialect first with Gaelic after? Perhaps you could accept some degree of Gaelic signage if the Gaelic lobby would agree to spend their Gaelic money for Caithness Dialect signs in Caithness?
Perhaps not, Gleeber... but we need to open a dialogue with the Gaelic activists, if everyone in Caithness takes your extreme pro-Norse attitude (which I do admire so much!) it WILL result in the whole of Caithness getting Gaelic roadsigns. And, I imagine, a lot of unsightly spray paint and gaffer tape to "correct" these erroneous signs.
In any solution, both sides will feel that they have made concessions. We are just trying to find a solution where both sides will end up content that their heritage is represented.
Without dialogue, Caithness will become a Gaelic outpost and our Norse heritage will be overwritten - not what you or I want at all.
Sin agaibh e ! - Tha mi Dochas (there you have it - I hope)
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu343/Each_bucket/Caithness-signs.jpg
If we are all happy - I will make representations as requested...
Well done Each! I think your solution is much, much better than the current proposal of translating ALL the signs in Caithness (and, Gleeber, that is what we're facing and that is what we'll get if no-one manages to negotiate a compromise.) It's a very good effort to protect the heritage of the Norse corner. But of course, Each, you'll never make everyone happy - no matter how hard we try!
Just two comments -
The signs which are actually on the A9 are not our only concern, in fact maybe not even our primary concern. Because of the recently revealed plans of the Transport Minister, these are currently under a safety review and may not be decided for years. The A9 signposts are under the control of the Scottish Executive rather than the Highland Council. More pressing is the need to protect the Norse names on all the other roads in the NE corner from the Highland Council - that is the much more urgent threat and the one we'd really like you to make representations on.
If you would like to write to the Scottish Executive regarding the signs on the A9, I'd suggest that you simply translate the signposts for the places with Gaelic placename origin and don't translate the signposts for the places with pure Norse origin. This demonstrates the historic border of the Gaeldom much more clearly and accurately. You may well find some Gaelic names to the East of the A9, and you'll certainly find some pure Norse ones (like Thurso and Scrabster) along the road, too. I think it's worth making this distinction, because then the whole thing makes historic sense.
I wholeheartedly applaud your efforts, Each. You are the first Gael I've met who can see this issue from both sides and your input makes solving this difficult problem more possible. Thanks!:D
Boy boy. Lets appease the Gaels otherwise they will walk all over us. Where have I heard that before?
Non of this would have happened had a seriously determined Gaelic lobby not got their feet in the door through some underhand skullduggary in the corridors of power.
This Gaelic movement needs to be more transparent. Why do they insist on Caithness being brought into their realm when they know well enough there are cultural difficulties. Rather than Caithness having to bow to the Gaelic lobby I would suggest it would be more respectful if the Gaelic lobby recognised the historical cultural differences within Caithness and setttled for their signs at the borders of the Ord in the south and the split stone to the west. I would welcome that.
kmahon2001
27-Mar-09, 11:07
Boy boy. Lets appease the Gaels otherwise they will walk all over us. Where have I heard that before?
Non of this would have happened had a seriously determined Gaelic lobby not got their feet in the door through some underhand skullduggary in the corridors of power.
This Gaelic movement needs to be more transparent. Why do they insist on Caithness being brought into their realm when they know well enough there are cultural difficulties. Rather than Caithness having to bow to the Gaelic lobby I would suggest it would be more respectful if the Gaelic lobby recognised the historical cultural differences within Caithness and setttled for their signs at the borders of the Ord in the south and the split stone to the west. I would welcome that.
I totally agree. And as for drawing a line at the A9 for Gaelic placenames, that doesn't make any sense. Most (if not all) of the placenames along the A9 up from Helmsdale towards Thurso are of Norse origin, not to mention some of those just to the west of the A9, like Halkirk. Why should these places be sacrificed just so's those in Wick and the surrounds can save their own Norse heritage?
I am happy with the idea of bilingual roadsigns for Gaelic placenames, but why does there have to be a clear dividing line on a map. The border between Norse and Gaelic is much more fluid than that and should be left as is. It would be much more to the point if the Gaelic movement simply stuck to bilingual signs for placenames that are of Gaelic origin instead of inventing names or spellings for those of Norse origin.
Whatever happened to celebrating cultural diversity - or does that only apply to immigrant cultures and not native cultures?
Rather than Caithness having to bow to the Gaelic lobby I would suggest it would be more respectful if the Gaelic lobby recognised the historical cultural differences within Caithness and setttled for their signs at the borders of the Ord in the south and the split stone to the west. I would welcome that.
But Gleeber, a large part of the Caithness Flow country was part of the Gaeldom. It's a fact and the placenames there prove it. (Signposts are all about placenames, remember.) So, as the Highland Council has decided (rightly or wrongly) to put Gaelic bilingual signs across the rest of the Gaeldom in Highland Region it seems only reasonable to expect that this would extend as far as the historic border of the Gaeldom which is in Caithness. This does not match with the modern border of Caithness. (The whole thing would have been so much easier to negotiate if it had!)
It's not helpful for Caithness fowk to deny the Gaelic history of the SW border of the county, and it's best for everyone to face the fact that Caithness has a shared history which embraces both the Gaelic and the Norse cultures. We should be proud of the way the Caithness people welcomed the Gaels (especially the refugees from the clearances) with open arms and enjoyed having them as their neighbours for a while.
I hope it is possible for Caithness to welcome the Gaels again, but obviously not unless they will be good enough to acknowledge our long, Norse history. In modern Caithness, most of the people rightly treasure and want to protect this Norse heritage just as the Gaels do theirs. I agree with you, Gleeber, that the Gaelic activists really must face this as a fact.
The proposed embryonic solution does not have to be a compromise - it could easily just follow the historic facts towards an accurate solution. I think Each is doing a great job and deserves our support - keep up the good work, Each!:D
But Gleeber, a large part of the Caithness Flow country was part of the Gaeldom. It's a fact and the placenames there prove it. (Signposts are all about placenames, remember.) So, as the Highland Council has decided (rightly or wrongly) to put Gaelic bilingual signs across the rest of the Gaeldom in Highland Region it seems only reasonable to expect that this would extend as far as the historic border of the Gaeldom which is in Caithness. This does not match with the modern border of Caithness. (The whole thing would have been so much easier to negotiate if it had!)
It's not helpful for Caithness fowk to deny the Gaelic history of the SW border of the county, and it's best for everyone to face the fact that Caithness has a shared history which embraces both the Gaelic and the Norse cultures. We should be proud of the way the Caithness people welcomed the Gaels (especially the refugees from the clearances) with open arms and enjoyed having them as their neighbours for a while.
I hope it is possible for Caithness to welcome the Gaels again, but obviously not unless they will be good enough to acknowledge our long, Norse history. In modern Caithness, most of the people rightly treasure and want to protect this Norse heritage just as the Gaels do theirs. I agree with you, Gleeber, that the Gaelic activists really must face this as a fact.
The proposed embryonic solution does not have to be a compromise - it could easily just follow the historic facts towards an accurate solution. I think Each is doing a great job and deserves our support - keep up the good work, Each!:D
They can have the flow country then tootler.
I dont deny any Gaelic heritage in any part of Caithness. What I do object to in this recent surge by the Gaels is the idea that they are operating from a power base that has links into deepest governmet. Of course they should keep the Gaelic language alive but must we reclassify everything after centuries of a fairly settled peace? Must their surge be funded by millions of pounds of public money and especially at a time when ordinary folk have much more to think about than some romantic notion on the part of the Gaels that road signs will enhance our lives.
Let them by all means keep the Gaelic heritage alive but lets not let them walk over us without at least explaining their long term intentions. Once they have plundered Caithness with road signs in their pet language, what then? How much more money will go into the Gaelic pot?
I was impressed by your resistance tootler but you have let me down badly. I wonder what your old friend thinks of your compromise?
I wonder what your old friend thinks of your compromise?
My old friend, our local placenames expert, is really only interested in protecting the true heritage of Caithness. I'm sure he would be much happier to see bilingual signs only on placenames of Gaelic origin. He's very, very unhappy at the thought of Norse names being "translated" into modern Gaelic, especially beyond the border of the Gaeldom.
I'm going to try to see if I can post a new poll. If I manage, perhaps we can continue this discussion there? Wish me luck!
New poll is up! It would be helpful if we could continue the discussion there so that we don't have the two threads running concurrently - thanks to all & see you there!
New poll is up! It would be helpful if we could continue the discussion there so that we don't have the two threads running concurrently - thanks to all & see you there!You won't see me there. I don't support your proposal and my opinions don't lie along any of your ballot options.
I agree with gleeber, it's all out war!
Tom Cornwall
31-Mar-09, 19:24
I voted no. Caithness was never a Gaelic speaking county. Do we start putting signs in Polish or French or any other language as well:lol:
that sounds like common sense...there's probably more Polish speakers than Gaelic...so where do you draw the line..are they going to spend £thousands to please a tiny, tiny minority..
I voted no as I cannot see who the signs are aimed at? Tourists are unlikely to speak Galiec and are quite likely to speak English and the majority of locals do not speak Galiec so what would be the point. Also looking at the stats it appears that almost no one wants the signs.
I do know that when the idea was mooted originally that most people voted no but the council still went ahead anyway. So much for democracy.
I do know that when the idea was mooted originally that most people voted no but the council still went ahead anyway. So much for democracy.
Do you think that the preservation of minority languages should be the subject of popular opinion?:confused
If so, then what hope is there for their preservation?:confused
that sounds like common sense...there's probably more Polish speakers than Gaelic...so where do you draw the line..are they going to spend £thousands to please a tiny, tiny minority..
The Polish are not indigenous to Scotland.
Do you think that the preservation of minority languages should be the subject of popular opinion?:confused
If so, then what hope is there for their preservation?:confused
Well the language is alive and well in the islands so it wont die out in that respect but in Caithness most are not interested in it and see it as a waste of public money.
What hope for us if we allow public opinion to dominate eveything.
Public opinion isn't right all the time and it can change alarmingly quickly.
A few Years ago anyone talking about global warming was dismissed as a lunatic - now look at us - cant get enough of it !
Lets stop using public opnion as an excuse - and lets do what is right.
Repect other people / cultures and recognise that they exist - the measaure of our society is not what we do for the strongest most able in our community - but what we do for those in a less fortunate position than ourselves.
Good things will come out of a positive attitude !
Repect other people / cultures and recognise that they exist - the measaure of our society is not what we do for the strongest most able in our community - but what we do for those in a less fortunate position than ourselves.
Good things will come out of a positive attitude !
Aye eachy biy, your gettan ayre slowly.
The powers that be are not always right eh?
No subtle nuances for you, Gleeber
Why live in a world of black & white, let a little colour into your life theres a whole rich spectrum out there.
No subtle nuances for you, Gleeber
Why live in a world of black & white, let a little colour into your life theres a whole rich spectrum out there.
See, Now your patronising me. . Ive noticed a certain arrogance accompanying the gael argument in this issue. I suppose your right to feel that way considering you have the full support and power of the Scottish government and its factor in the north, The Highland Council, to whom, if I may add, I just paid my concil tax , not that that'll concern them, unless of course I hadnt paid it, to support your cause. :confused
You may well be able to play with words and present snapshots of lifes rich tapestry by suggesting I need to get out more but I'll tell ye something wer'e no done yit.
I wonder if anyone has considered the European Court of human rights. Are there any budding young caithness lawmen/lawladies out there looking for a dissertation subject? [evil]
Tom Cornwall
01-Apr-09, 22:11
Road signs are for showing you the way. They should correspond to what is written on your road map.
Cash-strapped councils should not be wasting taxpayers' money on unnecessary flag-waving.
If these people were spending their own money, or running a commercial business, they would think twice before committing money to fantastical schemes, when there is little enough forthe necessities.
brilliant, spurtle...that's what I meant to say
Tom Cornwall
01-Apr-09, 22:15
Why would a few sign posts bother you?
it wouldn't be so bad if it was only a few, but they're probably talking about thousands
Aaldtimer
02-Apr-09, 02:40
Mmmmm! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7976510.stm
;)
kmahon2001
02-Apr-09, 10:05
Mmmmm! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7976510.stm
;)
The final paragraph of that article is very confusing to me.
"Geneticists also said as many as 40% of the population on the Western Isles could have Viking ancestry, while no Viking ancestry was found in north east Scotland."
Does the North East of Scotland include Caithness and Sutherland, or are they more referring to Aberdeenshire etc?
Surely an area with so many Norse placenames must show some Viking heritage in the genes of the people of that area.
It is sad to see the resentment that this blanket measure is going to engender. Most people are enthusiastic about the promotion of Gaelic and all the cultural richness it represents.
But road signs! The waste of public money involved in making up new signs, and employing people to invent names which never existed is absurd.
Road signs are for showing you the way. Are we going to end up with the sort of language rivalry that we see in Belgium, for example, where, if you are trying to get to Aaachen, depending on the administrative region you are in, signs are replaced by "Aix-la-Chapelle" and back again to Aachen when you cross over into another district. It is possible to do this several times in your journey.
It is time the wider Council backed down and accepted that Caithness is not an appropriate place for this particulat diktat.
Inevitably, we will end up with a lot of defaced road signs (remember Shetland and the touristy thistle signs?) whhich will do nothing for our image at all.
tonkatojo
03-Apr-09, 11:04
Does anyone actually believe the powers that be in h r c will take a hap'eth of notice in a caithness poll ?.:(
Does anyone actually believe the powers that be in h r c will take a hap'eth of notice in a caithness poll ?.:(
I don't know but they aren't likely to accuse Bill Fernie of rigging this result. :lol:
It's harder to vote more than once on here than it is in the Groat poll. I've voted three times in that today just to prove I could.
It is sad to see the resentment that this blanket measure is going to engender. It has already engendered resentment and it could get worse.
Inevitably, we will end up with a lot of defaced road signs (remember Shetland and the touristy thistle signs?) whhich will do nothing for our image at all.Yes the resentment could increase and defaced road signs are a distinct possibility. If I were on the 2010 Mod committee I would seriously consider campaigning against bilingual roadsigns before the wider community turns against the Mod.
I guess the Irony is lost on many of those challenging gaelic Signage.
A minority feeling that they are suffering an injustice, being ignored by the majority and seeking recognition for their own unique identity...
Now - Would that be the cathnessians who support gaidhlig and face the ridicule/intollerence of their neighbours - or caithnessians who are against gaidhlig and outraged at being out numbered and ridiculed in the Highland Council chamber ?
The situation that both sides in caithness find themselves in, is so simillar it is laughable.
If we could reach an accommodation, there are so many other issues that we could fight together and being together a stronger argument could be made. Caithness isn't the only community suffering at the fringes while Inverness hogs all the regions resources for itself.
Its a shame both this discussion and the other thread that is currently going, has moved away from engaging with the issues.
I dont see how anyone can hold a position that simoultaniously demands that one aspect of caithness identity and culture should be celebrated and preserved because it is small, unique and fragile, whilst at the same time declaring that another aspect of caithness identity and culture should be declared invalid/irrelevant because it is small unique and fragile.
There is no rational to this argument - one culture is mine - and the other is yours - we dont share the same identity - therefore you are a threat to my identity and you are not welcome. This is not a progressive argument and will only lead to distrust, division and resentment.
It is also an argument that has significant consequences that extend well beyond the sphere of bi-lingual signage in Caithness.
In spite of the indiference, intollerence cynical remarks and insults, I choose a positive argument - which begins with fact that we can achieve more through mutual respect and working together.
It may appear at first glance to be a romantic outlook that belongs to a by gone age - it is not - it is utterly relevant to today. It is the only option available to us - if this is not the case, the consequences for society are horrific !
How is it utterly relevant to today?
You know if fowkies were really worried about any threat to their norse heritage then they would be learning old norse right now. Gaelic isn't a threat to Caithness culture in that context but the very Global English that everyone speaks here. Fact is Caithness dialect owes as much if not more to Gaelic than Norse.
A couple of weeks ago I posted:
Yes the resentment could increase and defaced road signs are a distinct possibility. If I were on the 2010 Mod committee I would seriously consider campaigning against bilingual roadsigns before the wider community turns against the Mod.
Has the wider community turned against the Mod? No it hasn't, but there are suggestions that it might.
I've been discussing the issues with Gaelic zealots here in the south and they all say Caithness hates Gaeldom and everything it stands for. Is this a self-fulfilling prophesy?
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