Pointless Referenda...

[Each]

Councillor coghill doesnt want to see the councils pennies wasted on signs with a bit of Gaelic on them but instead wants the council to spend a fortune on an ill concieved referrendum that he hope will validate his prejudice.

I guess the irony is lost on him !

I suggest the wording of his reforrendum should read..

"I am an intollerent oaf and refuse to recognise the existence/needs of minority groups within the community... yes or no ?" [disgust]

Shame on you mr coghill, Instead of picking a pointless issue, why not have a referendum on more objectionable behaviour from other section of the community.

How about

"dog owners who gather up their dogs excrements in plastic bags and then
hang it on the nearest fence post/tree branch sould be forced to geather it up and eat it.....yes or no ?"

or how about

"drivers that choose to drive (and/or tow caravans) at 40mph on the A9
and refuse to pull in despite a 6 mile tailback of traffic behind them should have their driving licence revoked... yes or no ?"

or how about

"amourous young (presumably) things that gather at the side of Thurso Library and leave their used condoms displayed proudly on the footpath for others to admire, should be force fed jane austin novels and made to watch period dramas when ever their pulse rises.... yes or no?" :rolleyes:

[Kevin Milkins]

Your not fond of councillor Coghill then, yes or no. ;)

[joxville]

Do I really care......Yes or No?

[Melancholy Man]

The plural of referendum is not referenda.

[crayola]

I am an intollerent oaf and refuse to recognise the existence/needs of minority groups within the community...I won't argue with that.

[Each]

We can have a referendum on that too...

the court public opinion does not defer to the inconvenient consequences of applying rational thought processes to a problem.

Thats why policiticians love them so...

[crayola]

the court public opinion does not defer to the inconvenient consequences of applying rational thought processes to a problem.I agree with that also.


Thats why policiticians love them so...But only when the masses give them the result they want.

What is the Gaelic for "Road Works" anyways?

[crayola]

The plural of referendum is not referenda.
It can be either. I prefer the English construction when there's a choice but others prefer the Latin.

[Melancholy Man]

It's not a nominative singular neuter noun, in which case referend-a would be acceptable.

[crayola]

It's not a nominative singular neuter noun, in which case referend-a would be acceptable.
Is it not? I googled it but found conflicting explanations. What is it if it's not a second declension nominative neuter noun? Wiktionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/referendum) gives its declension but only in the singular and I don't recognise any of the endings. :confused

On English usage, Wikipedia says
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendum)
Referendums and referenda are both commonly used as plurals of the referendum factor. However, the use of referenda is deprecated by the Oxford English Dictionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary) which advises that:
"Referendums is logically preferable as a plural form meaning ballots on one issue (as a Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) gerund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerund), referendum has no plural). The Latin plural gerundive referenda, meaning things to be referred, necessarily connotes a plurality of issues."Interesting. :cool:

Ok, I think I may have it. From Wiktionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/referendum) again

Etymology Latin, neuter gerundive of referre (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/referre) (to refer)
And again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerundive)
In Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin), the gerundive is a verbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-finite_verb) adjective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective) used to indicate that a noun needs or deserves to be the object of an action. It is sometimes known as a future passive participle. For example, if English had a Latin-style gerundive, and feed-ando were the gerundive form of the verb to feed, then "The cat is feed-ando" would mean "The cat should be fed." English sometimes uses a passive infinitive to this effect: "The cat is to be fed."Is this what you meant when you said referendum isn't a nominative singular neuter noun?

[Each]

Your knowledge of grammatical syntax is intimidating, therefore my offer of a translation for roadworks is accompanied by a disclaimer, that it may not be offically or even gramatically correct.

However, if you are listening to the traffic report on radio nan gaidheal you will commonly hear the expression " tha obair-carradh a dol air xxx rathaid" which tranlates as "roadworks are taking place on xxx road."

although "obair-carradh" means repair work of any kind and isn't specifically roadworks.

obair-innealaireachd - engineering works - would tend refer to work on the railways / bridges of a more complex nature.

[crayola]

Thanks Each x

[The Pepsi Challenge]

Eternal punishment for grammatical error - instead of a sentence, a sin tax.

[crayola]

Eternal punishment for grammatical error - instead of a sentence, a sin tax.Yes, and for some antics you'll get a kick up the gerundive from Melancholy Man. :lol:

[The Pepsi Challenge]

Yes, and for some antics you'll get a kick up the gerundive from Melancholy Man. :lol:

That doesn't sound nice at all. In grammatical terms, he's a colon - right?

[crayola]

No, he's only half-way there; period. But don't 'quote' me on that. :lol:

[Melancholy Man]

Eternal punishment for grammatical error - instead of a sentence, a sin tax.

Wa-haha!


Is this what you meant when you said referendum isn't a nominative singular neuter noun

Yup. Nouns, in Latin, are divided in to the unchanging stem (or, almost unchanged except under certain letter combinations), e.g. referend-, and root e.g. -um/a (sic.). Changes to the root indicate number and case. Number is easy, singular and plural; case indicates the grammatical function, and has only vestiges in English.

According to case, they're sorted into declension groups in which specific nouns also have unchanging gender (or, sex as Nanny Ogg would say), , i.e. masculine and feminine and neuter: usually, fairly uniform across separate cases, but can be mixed.

The five most common cases are:


Nominative case is when the noun is the subject of the clause, or preforming the action (e.g. the *mouse* ran up the clock);
Accusative is the object, or having the action is being preformed on it (e.g. the mouse ran up the *clock*).


English has clear examples of this in I/me, he/him or, in poncified form, thou/thee.



Genitive is the possessive case, or indicating modification/ownership, e.g. the mouse ran up the {*old* *man's*} clock {*of* *the* *old* *man*};
Dative is an indirect object, or appropriate to the object (e.g. the mouse ran up the clock, [which was] on the floor);
Ablative relates to a noun preforming an axillary action, (e.g. the mouse ran up the clock away from the *cat*).


English preforms this by the use of prepositions (e.g. to, at) and personal pronouns (e.g. I, he).

Roots -um indicates a second group declension, either nominative or accusative as well as neuter noun which'd be -a in plural (cf. bacteri-um/a). But not referendum!

Just to make it confusing, first declension nouns (feminine) are -a/ae in nominative. I cannot think of one which may be used in spoken English, so will suggest nautil-a/ae for sailor. Also, second declension (masculine) accusative singular nouns are -um in singular and -os (with macron, or bar, on the O; this is enunciated by lengthening the vowel) in plural. For instance, camp-us/i (originally a field).

Paradigms for these two would be (running down the cases in singular and then in plural):



Nautil-a;
Nautil-am;
Nautil-ae;
Nautil-ae;
Nautil-a (macron on A);
Nautil-ae
Nautil-as (macron on A)
Nautil-arum (macron on A)
Nautil-is (macron on I);
Nautil-is (macron on I).




Camp-us;
Camp-um;
Camp-i (macron on I);
Camp-o (macron on O);
Camp-o (macron on O);
Camp-i (macron on I);
Camp-os (macron on O);
Camp-orum (macron on O);
Camp-is (macron on I);
Camp-is (macron on I).

However, less frequent fourth declension nouns are also -us in nominative singular... and -us (with macron on the U) in plural. For instance, prospect-us which is *not* prospect-i in plural: it's prospect-us (macron on U).

One good Latin epitaph is: "Infandum, regina, iubes renovare dolorem". Anyone recognize the first word? :evil

[joxville]

What difference does it make MM? The mouse ran back down again. :D

[Melancholy Man]

That doesn't sound nice at all. In grammatical terms, he's a colon - right?

Man, now I've got coffee all over my screen.

[The Pepsi Challenge]

Man, now I've got coffee all over my screen.

No worries; I have Academia running down mine (",)

[canuck]

However, if you are listening to the traffic report on radio nan gaidheal you will commonly hear the expression " tha obair-carradh a dol air xxx rathaid" which tranlates as "roadworks are taking place on xxx road."



In my short time in the city I have learned that in Edinburgh tha obair-carradh a dol air is very much in the category of what the Oxford dictionary refers to as a 'profane oath.'

[crayola]

Wa-haha!



Yup. Nouns, in Latin, are divided in to the unchanging stem (or, almost unchanged except under certain letter combinations), e.g. referend-, and root e.g. -um/a (sic.). Changes to the root indicate number and case. Number is easy, singular and plural; case indicates the grammatical function, and has only vestiges in English.

According to case, they're sorted into declension groups in which specific nouns also have unchanging gender (or, sex as Nanny Ogg would say), , i.e. masculine and feminine and neuter: usually, fairly uniform across separate cases, but can be mixed.

The five most common cases are:


Nominative case is when the noun is the subject of the clause, or preforming the action (e.g. the *mouse* ran up the clock);
Accusative is the object, or having the action is being preformed on it (e.g. the mouse ran up the *clock*).


English has clear examples of this in I/me, he/him or, in poncified form, thou/thee.



Genitive is the possessive case, or indicating modification/ownership, e.g. the mouse ran up the {*old* *man's*} clock {*of* *the* *old* *man*};
Dative is an indirect object, or appropriate to the object (e.g. the mouse ran up the clock, [which was] on the floor);
Ablative relates to a noun preforming an axillary action, (e.g. the mouse ran up the clock away from the *cat*).


English preforms this by the use of prepositions (e.g. to, at) and personal pronouns (e.g. I, he).

Roots -um indicates a second group declension, either nominative or accusative as well as neuter noun which'd be -a in plural (cf. bacteri-um/a). But not referendum!

Just to make it confusing, first declension nouns (feminine) are -a/ae in nominative. I cannot think of one which may be used in spoken English, so will suggest nautil-a/ae for sailor. Also, second declension (masculine) accusative singular nouns are -um in singular and -os (with macron, or bar, on the O; this is enunciated by lengthening the vowel) in plural. For instance, camp-us/i (originally a field).

Paradigms for these two would be (running down the cases in singular and then in plural):



Nautil-a;
Nautil-am;
Nautil-ae;
Nautil-ae;
Nautil-a (macron on A);
Nautil-ae
Nautil-as (macron on A)
Nautil-arum (macron on A)
Nautil-is (macron on I);
Nautil-is (macron on I).




Camp-us;
Camp-um;
Camp-i (macron on I);
Camp-o (macron on O);
Camp-o (macron on O);
Camp-i (macron on I);
Camp-os (macron on O);
Camp-orum (macron on O);
Camp-is (macron on I);
Camp-is (macron on I).

However, less frequent fourth declension nouns are also -us in nominative singular... and -us (with macron on the U) in plural. For instance, prospect-us which is *not* prospect-i in plural: it's prospect-us (macron on U).

One good Latin epitaph is: "Infandum, regina, iubes renovare dolorem". Anyone recognize the first word? :evil
I know about the various declensions and cases, it's the gerundive bit that's new to me, can you explain that in the same level of detail?

Is it really correct that referendum has no plural?

[crayola]

Just to make it confusing, first declension nouns (feminine) are -a/ae in nominative. I cannot think of one which may be used in spoken EnglishHow about formula? :cool:

[tootler]

"I am an intollerent oaf and refuse to recognise the existence/needs of minority groups within the community... yes or no ?"



Hi Each,

I can see from your first few posts that you and I are going to get along SO well - welcome to the org, where differences are accepted but discrimination is not...

Did you know that it's no longer possible to study Latin within the Highland Council Education Department? They don't have enough funding...[lol]

Seriously, though, when my daughter asked to study Latin just last year the answer was a clear and resounding NO. A couple of quotes from the HC employees in charge: "No-one in Highland Council gets to study Latin so why should she be favoured?" and "No-one speaks Latin any more anyway, it's a dead language - she should study something more useful!"

Like Gaelic?!?!?!? I don't think so...

What about sticking up for the academics - they're the real minority, arguably much more useful to society than some others... funding education instead of roadsigns no-one needs would be a good start.:roll:

And hey, Melancholy Man! Now I know where to come when the lassie gets stuck on her on-line Latin course - you know stuff! You must have gone to school in the olden days before Gaelic was invented and Latin was banned...;)

[Aaldtimer]

Hey Tootler! Don't you know that the Gaelic is known as the "Language of Eden"? And don't feed the Troll Cheery Chops! ;)

[GetWithTheTimes]

Is their really anyone in caithness who only speaks gaelic and doesn't have a clue how to speak english or read it?

i have lived here all my life and never heard anyone speak it as a first language all the time, but maybe i just haven't met them.

i would imagine there are more polish people here that cant speak english than gaelic people who cant speak english but i dont seeing anyone shouting about putting polish on the road signs, we are an english speaking country and anyone in it should take the time to learn the language we dont put german and french and italian and spanish and dutch and all these other languages on the signs that way more people could probably read so why bother putting gaelic on the signs so a very small minority can read it in 2 languages they can read, they should learn to read english if they cant read it, same as with all the rest of the foreign people have to learn out language

and gaelic is only considered the language of eden to those people insecure enough to have to believe in a god to live their life in the first place, its just my opinion but i think little of christianity and any other religion in a whole, religion has caused nothing but war bloodshed false hopes and religious fanatics and allowed people to believe they are a good person when they did wrong, as long as they "ask god for forgiveness" they will be free from sin and accepted into heaven, i also find it hard to believe that people base their life on a book written so long ago when people had no clue about the earth and had little knowledge of psychoactive plants and fungi and could well have hallucinated or imagined all sorts and wrote it in a STORY that later people found and believed to be word of god

lol rant over :D

[neilsermk1]

I do not object to roadsigns being multi lingual for any other reason other than it costs more, and has a greater impact on the environment because of the extra resources required to produce them. Get a grip and focus on what is important.

[neilsermk1]

p.s. The plural of referendum is not referenda check the OED;)

[Melancholy Man]

Hey Tootler! Don't you know that the Gaelic is known as the "Language of Eden"? And don't feed the Troll Cheery Chops! ;)

Maybe not Eden. But, when Paul spoke to the Ephesians, he would have been speaking in the G-a-a-a-a-a-elic.


I know about the various declensions and cases, it's the gerundive bit that's new to me, can you explain that in the same level of detail?

Is it really correct that referendum has no plural?

You gave a good definition it it earlier. The simple reason that it doesn't have a plural is that it doesn't: it's the action noun of a verb. Don't think of referendum as originally having been a ballot question (i.e. a noun) but the act of preforming a ballot question (i.e. the action noun of the verb, to preform a ballot question).

Of course, it's been adopted as a noun in English, so it therefore follows English rules to be pluralized. Add an S.


Seriously, though, when my daughter asked to study Latin just last year the answer was a clear and resounding NO. A couple of quotes from the HC employees in charge: "No-one in Highland Council gets to study Latin so why should she be favoured?" and "No-one speaks Latin any more anyway, it's a dead language - she should study something more useful!"

That's a bleeding disgrace! Of course it's a dead language; that's not the same as impractical. It offers a directly applicable framework to learning several other European languages, as well as the cognitive processes in computer programming and mathematics. Plus, with its corpus being entirely written, it lends itself much more easily to private study.

It's next to impossible for state school pupils to get into Oxbridge, and this won't help. I seriously hope they don't offer languages such as Mandarin or Urdu, to appear inclusive, whilst they consider this cornerstone of Western European culture to be irrelevant: especially, as highschool children can be expected to attain a much higher level of proficiency than at at least one of those languages.

Also, I didn't study Latin at school for similar reasons. I did an Open University course a few years back, and would love to return to it. Has your daughter considered that?

[JAWS]

Is it really correct that referendum has no plural?The plural is referenda but I think most people will now accept referendums.


Did you know that it's no longer possible to study Latin within the Highland Council Education Department? They don't have enough funding...[lol]

Seriously, though, when my daughter asked to study Latin just last year the answer was a clear and resounding NO. A couple of quotes from the HC employees in charge: "No-one in Highland Council gets to study Latin so why should she be favoured?" and "No-one speaks Latin any more anyway, it's a dead language - she should study something more useful!" She should inform them she wishes eventually to do research in Medieval History and will need to be able to read the source documents. That should give the arrogant morons something to exercise both their brain cells about.
She might refer them to this site and ask them to read it for her.
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_latin.html

[crayola]

You gave a good definition it it earlier. The simple reason that it doesn't have a plural is that it doesn't: it's the action noun of a verb. Don't think of referendum as originally having been a ballot question (i.e. a noun) but the act of preforming a ballot question (i.e. the action noun of the verb, to preform a ballot question).So I did. But I didn't fully absorb what I copied and pasted. Thank you for your patience, I appreciate it.


Of course, it's been adopted as a noun in English, so it therefore follows English rules to be pluralized. Add an S.Agreed. 'Referenda' is just wrong in Latin and inappropriate in English, if you're being kind.


That's a bleeding disgrace! Of course it's a dead language; that's not the same as impractical. It offers a directly applicable framework to learning several other European languages, as well as the cognitive processes in computer programming and mathematics. Plus, with its corpus being entirely written, it lends itself much more easily to private study.

It's next to impossible for state school pupils to get into Oxbridge, and this won't help. I seriously hope they don't offer languages such as Mandarin or Urdu, to appear inclusive, whilst they consider this cornerstone of Western European culture to be irrelevant: especially, as highschool children can be expected to attain a much higher level of proficiency than at at least one of those languages.

Also, I didn't study Latin at school for similar reasons. I did an Open University course a few years back, and would love to return to it. Has your daughter considered that?I studied Latin in second year at school because I didn't have any choice but I'm glad I did. When did the schools drop this practice?

I'd rather have learned Italian though.

I would like to learn a little Gaelic but the learners I know are insufferable zealots and that puts me off.

[Melancholy Man]

I'd rather have learned Italian though.I believe Latin is closer to Castilian Spanish, than the heterogenous mix of Italio-Dalmatian languages which became modern Italian. In turn Mexican Spanish is closer to Latin than Castilian Spanish.

[crayola]

I believe Latin is closer to Castilian Spanish, than the heterogenous mix of Italio-Dalmatian languages which became modern Italian. In turn Mexican Spanish is closer to Latin than Castilian Spanish.Thanks, I didn't know any of that.