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gollach
07-Mar-09, 15:04
Noticed this story on BBC web site today

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7928902.stm

richman
07-Mar-09, 15:09
who speak 's gaelic in caithness ? anyone know any one?

weeboyagee
07-Mar-09, 15:19
Nah - no me ;)

WBG :cool:

marlyn
07-Mar-09, 15:24
My 3 year old speaks quite good gaelic - unfortunately she is rubbish at driving!

There are a few gaelic speakers in Thurso

weeboyagee
07-Mar-09, 15:24
Performing u-turns in the middle of the road is a problem with understanding the highway code and nothing to do with billingual signs.

WBG :cool:

richman
07-Mar-09, 15:25
go on then , post somethin in galeic and prove it. ;)

weeboyagee
07-Mar-09, 15:33
Co? Mise? Neo Marlyn? Thuirt i gu bheil Gàidhlig aig an nighean aice ach chan eil mi cinnteach ma tha Gàidhlig aice.

(Who? Me? Or Marlyn? She said that her daughter speaks Gaelic but I'm not sure if she does.)

WBG :cool:

Mystical Potato Head
07-Mar-09, 15:36
Its seems pointless to me as Caithness has no Gaelic history,even the place names are of Norse descent,i am not anti gaelic but its a bit like putting signs up in Doric or how about Norn which used to be the dominant language of Orkney.Its not the spoken language of the county nor has it ever been.

richman
07-Mar-09, 15:38
Co? Mise? Neo Marlyn? Thuirt i gu bheil Gàidhlig aig an nighean aice ach chan eil mi cinnteach ma tha Gàidhlig aice.

(Who? Me? Or Marlyn? She said that her daughter speaks Gaelic but I'm not sure if she does.)

WBG :cool:
thank 's wbg , now find me a nice lassie til say at in ma loog and i 'll be in heaven lol . ;)

richman
07-Mar-09, 15:39
Its seems pointless to me as Caithness has no Gaelic history,even the place names are of Norse descent,i am not anti gaelic but its a bit like putting signs up in Doric or how about Norn which used to be the dominant language of Orkney.Its not the spoken language of the county nor has it ever been.
there 's plenty galeic history in caithness , the prob is that it 's just that , history . plenty galeic place names too , most in e west .

butterfly
07-Mar-09, 16:00
My 3 year old speaks quite good gaelic - unfortunately she is rubbish at driving!

There are a few gaelic speakers in Thurso

love your sense of humour lol!:D

golach
07-Mar-09, 16:15
thank 's wbg , now find me a nice lassie til say at in ma loog and i 'll be in heaven lol . ;) Richman, you are asking this man to find you a lassie [lol]

http://www.caithness.org/photos/fpb/april2006/raymondbremner40birthday/rb3.jpg

hotrod4
07-Mar-09, 16:17
Gaelic is a pointless language where people speak with loads of phlegm!!!
Its all och,ach and the like,dont dig it myself its hard enough trying to understand tea in a bowlies!!!![lol]

gleeber
07-Mar-09, 16:30
haha Golach[lol]

Gaelics a beuatiful language and Ive sat for a wee while trying to grasp some of the words in wbgs post. I dont speak any languages and Ive never applied myself to learning one. I worked for a while in a Gailic community and i rarely heard them speaking gaelic. No doubt they did amongst themselves. They were fine people and no much different than us Norsemen up here.
Ive thought about this Caithness/Gael connection and I can honestly say I dont think Caithness has been part of a Gaelic culture for hundreds of years. It's a deep rooted thing. Caithness adapted to a different culture when the Vikings landed. That was a thousand years ago.
I dont think the road signs should be forced on us. Our councilors are our representitives and they are all opposed too.
We still want the Mod in Caithness mind you. We want to be friendly with our Gael neighbours but We're Vikings up here.

Kenn
07-Mar-09, 18:00
I've no objection to the road signs being in both languages just wish I knew how to pronounce The Gael though before I get totally lost out west!

Mystical Potato Head
07-Mar-09, 18:04
there 's plenty galeic history in caithness , the prob is that it 's just that , history . plenty galeic place names too , most in e west .

Most are in the west because thats getting nearer gaelic country but the vast majority of names are of Viking/Norse descent and the history is almost ancient.I just think this Caithness/Gaelic link is rather tenuous at best.

oldchemist
07-Mar-09, 18:06
It's good to know that HRC has so much money that it can even consider such nonsense.

gollach
07-Mar-09, 18:24
I'm left wondering what this review means. Guess that the A9 itself will not have bilingual signs until at least 2011. But does it also mean that Highland Council are free to replace current signs on Latheron-Wick-John O'Groats road (is it called A99 now?) with bilingual signs any time they like?

richman
07-Mar-09, 19:01
Most are in the west because thats getting nearer gaelic country but the vast majority of names are of Viking/Norse descent and the history is almost ancient.I just think this Caithness/Gaelic link is rather tenuous at best.
the link is there but it 's old. i dinna want galeic signs but i 'm no denyin that names in the south and west of the county are galeic .

richman
07-Mar-09, 19:03
Richman, you are asking this man to find you a lassie [lol]

http://www.caithness.org/photos/fpb/april2006/raymondbremner40birthday/rb3.jpg
yon lassie is a peach , do you have her number ? ;)

gettin back to my question , does any one know how many galeic speaker 's there are in the county?

Rheghead
07-Mar-09, 19:12
Richman, you are asking this man to find you a lassie [lol]

http://www.caithness.org/photos/fpb/april2006/raymondbremner40birthday/rb3.jpg

She's an absolute doll, he is one lucky man.

richman
07-Mar-09, 19:16
She's an absolute doll, he is one lucky man.does she speak the galeic ?

S&LHEN
07-Mar-09, 19:54
Tha thu cearr a bhodaich.



Gaelic is a pointless language where people speak with loads of phlegm!!!
Its all och,ach and the like,dont dig it myself its hard enough trying to understand tea in a bowlies!!!![lol]

Tighsonas4
07-Mar-09, 21:11
in golspie every street is named in the gaelic as well ,as for me it takes me all my time to speak sense [lol] tony

marlyn
08-Mar-09, 11:57
I can speak a few words of gaelic - mostly at 3 year old level, would not be able to type it as the spelling would be all wrong - unless you wanted it phonetically. Can sing loads of songs though - really struggle to sing 'the wheels on the bus' in english, no probs in gaelic.

Off to find some Sular and Banja for the little one. (strawberries and milk)!

weeboyagee
08-Mar-09, 14:17
gettin back to my question , does any one know how many galeic speaker 's there are in the county?
Not picking you up richman, moreover a polite correction of the English spelling of Gaelic - "Gàidhlig" in it's own language. Try the last census. There are several folks in the county who speak Gaelic - some born and bred learners (all levels and up to fluent). Some moved to the county various lengths of time ago who live and work here. Some who don't actively use their first language because they have no need to but it is still their first language all the same. Unless you are in their company where reference to the language arises, you may never know that they are Gaelic speakers - but they are in our midst all the same, reading the papers, watching the news and listening to councillors and public opinion.


in golspie every street is named in the gaelic as well
The street names in Gaelic were introduced I believe as part of the preparation for when Golspie and Brora hosted the Royal National Mod in 1995. Fort William, Blairgowrie and other places since have introduced this as a way of welcoming the visitors. I don't know if they did the same in Falkirk last year. I am the convenor of the local committee for the Mod in Caithness 2010 and we (for fairly obvious reasons) haven't touched the idea with a barge pole!


Gaelic is a pointless language where people speak with loads of phlegm!!!
Its all och,ach and the like,dont dig it myself its hard enough trying to understand tea in a bowlies!!!!
If I ever meet you I'll remember to bring the papertowels! What about the tea in a bowlies that speak Gaelic - you've no chance heh-heh! :D

WBG :cool:

Even Chance
09-Mar-09, 15:01
Caithness owes its history to the Nordic regions, NOT the Gael.
I admit, there are some Gaelic influenced place names in Caithness, but vast majority are Viking. Even the name Caithness "Ness of the Catt people", has nothing to do with the Gael.
I cant see a bigger waste of money than introducing this in Caithness, and I hope it never happens.
The rest of Scotland, yep, im all for that, but NOT Caithness, Orkney, or Shetland. We have roots that come from Scandanavia, and I for one am VERY proud of this heritage.

tootler
09-Mar-09, 20:05
I'm so pleased to see the Transport minister quoshing the hopes of the extremists of the Highland Council Gaelic committee. ;)

Hopefully by the time they've done their survey and decided it's not safe, they'll also have worked out that we've got better things to spend our money on than Gaelic signage, on the roads or anywhere else.:)

btw, WBG, best wishes for your preparations for the Mod 2010 - how's it going?

hotrod4
09-Mar-09, 21:40
Just for the record I have nothing against Gaels or Gaelic speakers. I just find it pointless and a waste of resources-BBC Alba Anyone?
Each to their own but dont see why a Minority language should be forced onto signs that the majority cant read!

pinotnoir
10-Mar-09, 09:44
It is wrong to say that Caithness has no Gaelic tradition. Whilst it's use in the county died out many years ago, as late as 1901 up to 10% of our people spoke it, with the greatest use in Latheron parish.

To deny that history is akin to saying there were no brochs in the county.

golach
10-Mar-09, 10:37
.
NOT Caithness, Orkney, or Shetland. We have roots that come from Scandanavia, .
There were Gaelic Kings ruling Scotland and even Caithness from the 574 AD, the Viking's came to Caithness 300 years later, I too am proud of my Caithness roots, but to deny that there never was any Gaelic influence is wrong.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhistory/darkages/trails_darkages_gaels2.shtml

gleeber
10-Mar-09, 10:51
I wouldnt want to deny caithness it's Gaelic history. This is not about history though. It's about deep cultural inheritance. This issue has gone deeper than most non Cathnessians can understand. Ive worked with Gaels and lived in Gaelic communities and although I have an affinity with them as a fellow human being, I am not a Gael. I'm from Caithness. Our cultural background is Norse. Even our lanscape is different. It changes the moment you cross the Ord in the east or pass the Split Stone in the west. To deny Caithness it's natural heritage by branding us with Gaelic names is short-sighted and portrays a political system akin to bullying if the Highland Council insists on these measures.
I think it's nonsense to fight these measures on the grounds of safety although it gives us a breathing space.
Caithness needs to stand it's ground against the politically romantic movement now sweeping the corridors of Highland Council buildings in Inverness.
I think Highland Council and it's Gael co-ordintators have grossly overestimated their own enthusiasm for the Gaelic Language and now need to be told firmly but freindly that we are not Gaels in Caithness and probably never have been.

Even Chance
10-Mar-09, 11:08
Well said Gleeber!!
Im delighted to find another that feels just like myself about this issue.

Even Chance
10-Mar-09, 11:14
Golach,
This is about Gaelic road signs, IE- place names. I think you will find that the majority of place names in Caithness DO have Norse origins!!
I did say that Caithness shares some Gaelic roots, but we are predominantly of Norse origins.
I am not against Gaelic, indeed my son has a gaelic name.
These are my beliefs, and everyone is entitled to their free beliefs.

If you would care to search some Orkney/Shetland forums, you will find the same sort of feelings as mine. My family history is split, between Caithness and Shetland origins, which Im in no doubt sways my thoughts even further.

I do know my Caithness history, in fact it is one of my main interests!

pinotnoir
10-Mar-09, 14:53
Yes, but Gaelic was historically the majority language of Caithness even though our culture derives largely from non-Gaelic influences, the argument against Gaelic road signs should not be (as some would have it) that we have no tradition in the Gaelic language.

richman
10-Mar-09, 15:24
Not picking you up richman, moreover a polite correction of the English spelling of Gaelic - "Gàidhlig" in it's own language. Try the last census. There are several folks in the county who speak Gaelic - some born and bred learners (all levels and up to fluent). Some moved to the county various lengths of time ago who live and work here. Some who don't actively use their first language because they have no need to but it is still their first language all the same. Unless you are in their company where reference to the language arises, you may never know that they are Gaelic speakers - but they are in our midst all the same, reading the papers, watching the news and listening to councillors and public opinion.


WBG
och i ken fine how til spell the gaelic , i choost canna type straight lol !!!

i 'll try e cenusus but hev ye a rough guess how many ??? more than 100 ???

i dinna ken why sum o ye 's is sayin there 's no gaelic in caithness , i mind ma grannie sayin there wis folk in reay an melvich speakin it when she wis a lassie . but i 'm no wantin galeic road signs cos i dinna speak it and their confusin til me , so at tourist 's will be thinkin we 're pure dead mental puttin up signs we dinna understand werselve 's !!!:lol: :lol: :lol:

Even Chance
10-Mar-09, 16:12
Yes, but Gaelic was historically the majority language of Caithness even though our culture derives largely from non-Gaelic influences, the argument against Gaelic road signs should not be (as some would have it) that we have no tradition in the Gaelic language.


I do agree with you there pinotnoir.
Its the place names that bother me.
Example- the Name "Inbhir Uig" referring to Wick is just plain wrong, and to be frank, is insulting.
Wick, as we probably all know, comes from the Norse "Vik", being pronounced exactly as we say "Wick" Meaning- "Bay"
The proper pronunciation for "Viking", also being more like "wyking"

Certainly use the Gaelic names on the signs if the modern day names are actually derived from Gaelic, I have no problem with that, and would actively encourage it.
I would also encourage the Council to place the Norse names onto their respective modern day signs, as I would consider this to be just as historically important to Caithness. This would also let more holiday-makers know that it is not just Orkney/Shetland that are proud of their Viking roots.
This could also be used to make Caithness a holiday destination, instead of simply a tourist route to the isles. We should therefore actively encourage "cashing in" on our unique heritage, just as Orkney and Shetland have done. It has certainly worked for them!!

golach
10-Mar-09, 16:17
Looks as if our wonderful government, has at last made a common sense decision

http://news.scotsman.com/topstories/Lost-in-translation-Holyrood-puts.5054119.jp

Just a thought, does our government think that Scottish drivers are more stupid than say the Welsh, or Irish drivers, their road signs are in dual languages, and have been for years.

rich
10-Mar-09, 16:30
It's quite obvious that Potato head has a chip on his shoulder.

Gene Hunt
10-Mar-09, 16:52
Looks as if our wonderful government, has at last made a common sense decision

http://news.scotsman.com/topstories/Lost-in-translation-Holyrood-puts.5054119.jp

Just a thought, does our government think that Scottish drivers are more stupid than say the Welsh, or the Canadian drivers, their road signs are in dual languages, and have been for years.

*Ahem*

I'm Welsh. Are you trying to say I am stupid ?? .. ;)

The dual language signs have never been an issue in any way here, To be honest I have been up to Edinburgh for Scotland v Wales games and never understood why a country like Scotland that values it heritage and uniqueness so much largely ignores a major selling point like the Gaelic language.

Everything is dual language here, road markings, road signs and the Police, Fire and Ambulance vehicles too. I have never heard of it really being an issue, we have a lot of non welsh neighbours and they have never complained to my knowledge. I have seen a couple of English bikers a bit shaken after seeing "ARAF" on the road and concentrating on it as its unfamiliar, they must have missed the big "SLOW" painted right next to it though.

The Pepsi Challenge
10-Mar-09, 17:08
Caithness owes its history to the Nordic regions, NOT the Gael.
I admit, there are some Gaelic influenced place names in Caithness, but vast majority are Viking. Even the name Caithness "Ness of the Catt people", has nothing to do with the Gael.
I cant see a bigger waste of money than introducing this in Caithness, and I hope it never happens.
The rest of Scotland, yep, im all for that, but NOT Caithness, Orkney, or Shetland. We have roots that come from Scandanavia, and I for one am VERY proud of this heritage.

I also am proud to be a descendant of rapists, pillagers and murders.

Even Chance
10-Mar-09, 17:28
Pepsi,

That is how the Vikings are portrayed to outsiders! They also did a lot of good, and brought new technologies to isolated communities.

weeboyagee
10-Mar-09, 19:00
I do agree with you there pinotnoir.
Its the place names that bother me.
Example- the Name "Inbhir Uig" referring to Wick is just plain wrong, and to be frank, is insulting.
Wick, as we probably all know, comes from the Norse "Vik", being pronounced exactly as we say "Wick" Meaning- "Bay"
The proper pronunciation for "Viking", also being more like "wyking"
*sighs* not again!

Letter I put to the Groat when this came up before follows. I can't be bothered getting into the Gaelic/Norse names debate - but for a wee while I will! What I have thought of doing is inviting Caithness and Gaelic graduates who have studied Gaelic and Norse place names as part of their degree and know what they're talking about, to come up here and teach us to understand what we guess at but in reality haven't a clue about. So here for the research on the name of Wick is a wee lesson. Chew on it or choke on it - whatever your pleasure is! :)

"In response to a letter printed in the John O’ Groat Journal Friday 19th December in respect of the origin of the Gaelic name for Wick, I was a little concerned at what the writer was stating.

There are several places throughout the Highlands and Islands where Uig appears on the map, not least in Caithness. They do all however, have one theme in common – they are all linked by the Viking settlements in the respective areas. Uig on the west coast of the Isle of Lewis, Uig in Skye and our own Uig in Caithness at Wick. All of the places in question are bays. All of them to my mind being correct in their description geographically. The Gaelic term inbhir would more correctly reflect the term estuary where a river would run into a greater expanse of water and uig referring to the bay. I would agree that the terms uig and vik are both linked and have origins with the Vikings - settlements common to all the areas aforementioned. Both inbhir and uig are reference to a geographical description of the location to which they refer. I do not see where in either of these terms that the name of the town was born of the name of the river."

How on earth can the name formation be insulting - "uig" in respect of "vik"? Answer that Even Chance and back it up with reference material please. You want reference material for what I posted I'll PM you. What's insulting is an extreme amount of ignorance without the obvious research of the material being spoken about - which eventually is found to be insulting to those who know what they're talking about.

WBG :cool:

weeboyagee
10-Mar-09, 19:19
Caithness owes its history to the Nordic regions, NOT the Gael.
Without the Gael you would have had no Caithness history - and the greater part provided to it - far more than the Viking.


I admit, there are some Gaelic influenced place names in Caithness, but vast majority are Viking.
Wrong. What Caithness history did you study? The majority are Gaelic or Gaelic/Viking derived where the peoples/cultures mixed - research it. The greater part of the Caithness topography is named in Gaelic. Next?...


Even the name Caithness "Ness of the Catt people", has nothing to do with the Gael.
Reference "Ness" as in Ness the Parish at the top of the Isle of Lewis, the name of the village and countless other references in Scotland - linked to the Gael and the Viking. Why are you trying to fundamentally seperate the two - because is it suits your argument in terms of Caithness?


I cant see a bigger waste of money than introducing this in Caithness, and I hope it never happens.
The Highland Council's Gaelic Plan is totally seperate from the funding for everything else - the wind is nearly out of me repeating that. You will either have billingual signs or the money will go on something else in Gaelic. What is sure - you will not have it spent on anything else besides that - whether you or I believe it is a waste of money or not.


The rest of Scotland, yep, im all for that, but NOT Caithness, Orkney, or Shetland.
Classic case of NIMBY. Medication is available for that I think.


We have roots that come from Scandanavia, and I for one am VERY proud of this heritage.
So am I, so is every one else, but the more insular we become in this county, the more the country will wish we were just seperated at the Ord to sail our little county off into the wild blue yonder where our thinking can become our own, undisturbed by the rest of our history as real as it is or as the myth we would rather believe for comforts sake of not having to look at a billingual sign.

WBG :cool:

weeboyagee
10-Mar-09, 19:26
I'm so pleased to see the Transport minister quoshing the hopes of the extremists of the Highland Council Gaelic committee....Hopefully by the time they've done their survey and decided it's not safe, they'll also have worked out that we've got better things to spend our money on than Gaelic signage, on the roads or anywhere else...btw, WBG, best wishes for your preparations for the Mod 2010 - how's it going?
Hello there tootler - fancy meeting you on this subject again ;)

You and I know that your reference to spending money on other than Gaelic signage - are you agreeing with me that it will be on something else Gaelic? That the funding has been earmarked and is not available for other areas of public spend - and remember - I keep saying whether you or I believe it to be a good spend or not?

Preparations are going fine - lots of support but trying so hard to steer our local organising committees away from the other political agenda that simply has not gone away - billingual signs. The greater community outside of Caithness have this idea that we are THE Gaelic Committee involved in the billingual signs issue when it is the Council Gaelic Committee that is the real culprits! :lol: Can I just say though - we haven't had one problem with Caithness Fowk at all in reference to the Mod and Gaelic fowk coming here - not one - many good nights we've had with them all over the county - visitors and all - and the Lewis and Harris Accordion and Fiddle Club will see what a county we are when they arrive - I hear they are coming over and Fergie MacDonald has been lined up as well. The Gaelic tradition is still alive and well - but I can't for the life of me, find a Viking group despite my efforts - I believe they died oot a while ago!

Ye canna win!

WBG :cool:

Even Chance
11-Mar-09, 09:10
Bremner,
Im not gonna get intil a mud hurling match with you.
We all have our opinions, and that is what makes this world a great place.

You have your beliefs, and I have mine, and I respect that.

Fin.

Thank you.

weeboyagee
11-Mar-09, 10:46
No bother - your opinions are valued - it's your statements that are wrong - and these are not opinions - you have stated them as fact. There is a difference. You cant' spout fact that is wrong and expect to get away with it by saying it is an "opinion"!

WBG :cool:

The 'B' doesn't stand for Bremner ;) Since you obviously know me, it would be appreciated for you to introduce yourself to the world also - inlcuding me - at the moment I am suspecting you are a Fish?

Even Chance
11-Mar-09, 14:39
You know exactly who I am, and should work it out quite easily.
You did wrong by me in collaboration with others many years ago, and that is why I am not going any further.

weeboyagee
11-Mar-09, 14:49
You know exactly who I am, and should work it out quite easily.
You did wrong by me in collaboration with others many years ago, and that is why I am not going any further.
If I had a clue who you were I'd state your name - no problem, if I should be able to work it out then that would mean I don't know exactly who you are just now?? You carry on with any further little clues towards an allegation like the above in the public domain and you will find my bite a damn site harder than my bark, and a ban to boot - now answer the thread that you have been taking part in, keep on topic or get off. And I don't PM moderators!

WBG :cool:

Alice in Blunderland
11-Mar-09, 15:04
You know exactly who I am, and should work it out quite easily.
You did wrong by me in collaboration with others many years ago, and that is why I am not going any further.

As has been stated before in these forums and will obviously need to be stated again keep from being personal .

The org is not the place for these issues.

Alice in Blunderland
11-Mar-09, 15:20
And I don't PM moderators!

WBG :cool:

WBG :cool: you may not PM moderators but I do due to garbage that has been thrown around lately on the org its a very handy thing to do and maybe should be done more often to keep some folks on track. ;)

This is a community website and not a washing line to hang personal gripes about people on ..............if the poster annoys you that much take it into PMs so that not everyone has to view the personal stuff. IMHO

The Pepsi Challenge
11-Mar-09, 16:06
If I had a clue who you were I'd state your name - no problem, if I should be able to work it out then that would mean I don't know exactly who you are just now?? You carry on with any further little clues towards an allegation like the above in the public domain and you will find my bite a damn site harder than my bark, and a ban to boot - now answer the thread that you have been taking part in, keep on topic or get off. And I don't PM moderators!

WBG :cool:

Is it now OK to threaten people on this site???

weeboyagee
11-Mar-09, 16:24
Is it now OK to threaten people on this site???
You referring to the thread topic or are we continuing with the derailment started by a poster who couldn't cope with the discussion? Time to give it up methinks. :rolleyes:

WBG :cool:

tootler
12-Mar-09, 12:16
Now, now, lads, let's all be friends shall we?

WBG, as you may or may not know, I'm closely related to one of the six local history "experts" who met with the local councillors recently to try to unravel the "truth" behind the cultural relevance, or otherwise, of Gaelic to Caithness.

I'm no expert, but he certainly is. And, incidentally, none of the "experts" the councillors consulted are anti-Gaelic in any way - they're just respected local scholars with a genuine interest in preserving the history of Caithness.

Apparently, I'm reliably informed by my "expert", that the language of Caithness before Norse arrived was actually a very ancient form of Gaelic. The ancient Gaelic and the Norse are inextricably and uniquely intertwined in the placenames of Caithness. In the corner of the county, East of a line from about Latheron to about Reay, where the "modern" Gaelic language never took hold, we find (uniquely in this area) the combination of the ancient Gaelic and the Norse being preserved in the placenames we use every day.

The real concern of the history "experts" (and I stress, I'm certainly not one, I've just chatted over coffee very regularly with one!) is that, in literally "making up" modern Gaelic names for places where modern Gaelic names were never used, scholars of the future will find it very hard to unravel what was the fragile ancient form of Gaelic from what is the much more robust 21st century Gaelic influence. The experts are genuinely worried that, by making up new Gaelic names, there is a real risk of completely destroying the ancient Gaelic heritage of Caithness which is hidden deep in the "Norse" placenames of the county.

My understanding is that all six experts agreed that the very best option for the Highland Council would be to leave the placenames of Caithness as they are, for this reason alone.

But, if The Highland Council insists on making up modern Gaelic names for places in Caithness (and their understanding is that Highland Council Gaelic employees have already have done that translation job down in Inverness), the experts would plead that these names must be properly documented with the placenames register in Edinburgh, to historically record them as the 21st century additions that they are, so as protect the fragile remains of the ancient Gaelic which uniquely exists within current Caithness placenames. Evidence of this ancient language has been masked to the point of being destroyed in the other areas of the Highlands and Islands where modern Gaelic is or has been spoken more regularly, so protecting it in Caithness is of great historical importance.

It's a really complex issue. I, like you, WBG, have nearly given up trying to influence what should happen next to the roadsigns of Caithness - it's just a silly and tiresome business as far as I'm concerned. But, on behalf of my near, dear and much respected "expert", I'd just like you to know that the local historians here ARE interested in preserving the unique ancient Gaelic history of Caithness. But they are all agreed that creating modern Gaelic translations of our local placenames will undoubtedly do more harm than good when it comes to the job of preserving the unique ancient Gaelic history of Caithness.

So, the bottom line - the bi-lingual roadsigns are not a good idea for our corner of the world. But I think we both knew that already, eh?;)

I'm so glad your Mod preparations are coming along well - will there be a class that the Big Band and the Handbell Ringers can enter? Would you be kind enouch to lend me a bonnie Gaelic tunie or two to arrange for them for the occasion? I hear the Gaels have all the best tunes...

All the best, WBG,

Tootler

The Pepsi Challenge
12-Mar-09, 12:52
You referring to the thread topic or are we continuing with the derailment started by a poster who couldn't cope with the discussion?

WBG :cool:

I thought it would have been obvious.

weeboyagee
12-Mar-09, 14:14
Now, now, lads, let's all be friends shall we?

WBG, as you may or may not know, I'm closely related to one of the six local history "experts" who met with the local councillors recently to try to unravel the "truth" behind the cultural relevance, or otherwise, of Gaelic to Caithness.

I'm no expert, but he certainly is. And, incidentally, none of the "experts" the councillors consulted are anti-Gaelic in any way - they're just respected local scholars with a genuine interest in preserving the history of Caithness.

Apparently, I'm reliably informed by my "expert", that the language of Caithness before Norse arrived was actually a very ancient form of Gaelic. The ancient Gaelic and the Norse are inextricably and uniquely intertwined in the placenames of Caithness. In the corner of the county, East of a line from about Latheron to about Reay, where the "modern" Gaelic language never took hold, we find (uniquely in this area) the combination of the ancient Gaelic and the Norse being preserved in the placenames we use every day.

The real concern of the history "experts" (and I stress, I'm certainly not one, I've just chatted over coffee very regularly with one!) is that, in literally "making up" modern Gaelic names for places where modern Gaelic names were never used, scholars of the future will find it very hard to unravel what was the fragile ancient form of Gaelic from what is the much more robust 21st century Gaelic influence. The experts are genuinely worried that, by making up new Gaelic names, there is a real risk of completely destroying the ancient Gaelic heritage of Caithness which is hidden deep in the "Norse" placenames of the county.

My understanding is that all six experts agreed that the very best option for the Highland Council would be to leave the placenames of Caithness as they are, for this reason alone.

But, if The Highland Council insists on making up modern Gaelic names for places in Caithness (and their understanding is that Highland Council Gaelic employees have already have done that translation job down in Inverness), the experts would plead that these names must be properly documented with the placenames register in Edinburgh, to historically record them as the 21st century additions that they are, so as protect the fragile remains of the ancient Gaelic which uniquely exists within current Caithness placenames. Evidence of this ancient language has been masked to the point of being destroyed in the other areas of the Highlands and Islands where modern Gaelic is or has been spoken more regularly, so protecting it in Caithness is of great historical importance.

It's a really complex issue. I, like you, WBG, have nearly given up trying to influence what should happen next to the roadsigns of Caithness - it's just a silly and tiresome business as far as I'm concerned. But, on behalf of my near, dear and much respected "expert", I'd just like you to know that the local historians here ARE interested in preserving the unique ancient Gaelic history of Caithness. But they are all agreed that creating modern Gaelic translations of our local placenames will undoubtedly do more harm than good when it comes to the job of preserving the unique ancient Gaelic history of Caithness.
YAHOO!!! I agree absolutely 100% with that post - imagine that!!!! That was a brilliant post and very sensible.


So, the bottom line - the bi-lingual roadsigns are not a good idea for our corner of the world. But I think we both knew that already, eh?;)
I couldn't possibly comment on that at the current time ;)


I'm so glad your Mod preparations are coming along well - will there be a class that the Big Band and the Handbell Ringers can enter? Would you be kind enouch to lend me a bonnie Gaelic tunie or two to arrange for them for the occasion? I hear the Gaels have all the best tunes...All the best, WBG,
Cheers!

WBG :cool:

weeboyagee
12-Mar-09, 14:15
I thought it would have been obvious.
Aye - derailment - I thought so. No fear, train back on tracks now. :D

WBG :cool:

rockchick
12-Mar-09, 15:20
Looks as if our wonderful government, has at last made a common sense decision

http://news.scotsman.com/topstories/Lost-in-translation-Holyrood-puts.5054119.jp

Just a thought, does our government think that Scottish drivers are more stupid than say the Welsh, or the Canadian drivers, their road signs are in dual languages, and have been for years.

(Pointedly ignoring the slur with respect to Canadian driver's intelligence levels!)

Don't know about Wales, but most Canadian place names are in one language, whether it's French (as in "Montreal" or "Lac du Bonnet") or English (as in "Victoria"). I don't recall ever seeing a Francophone version of an English place name or street name on a road sign, unless it was for something like a national army base or the national government buildings. So I don't think you're comparing apples to apples here.

golach
12-Mar-09, 16:10
(Pointedly ignoring the slur with respect to Canadian driver's intelligence levels!)

I do apologise rockchick, I saw a few dual language signs in Canada the last time I was there, not necessarily road signs.
I was will amend my original post I will now include the Irish, as they have dual road signs and get on with them happily, as do the Welsh.
By the way its our Scottish Government who think the Scots drivers cannot or will not cope with dual language signs.

pinotnoir
12-Mar-09, 16:42
Here's an "experts" opinion...

http://www.bratach.co.uk/bratach/archive/Jun08/jun08_caithness-gaelic.html

weeboyagee
12-Mar-09, 18:38
Here's an "experts" opinion...

http://www.bratach.co.uk/bratach/archive/Jun08/jun08_caithness-gaelic.html
Yes - there are many articles written about the history of Gaelic Caithness. There are NONE written that I am aware of that deny Gaelic in Caithness and base it on fact.

My opinion in respect of the bilingual roadsigns and any other bilingual signage in Caithness?

We are part of the Highland Council. We voted them in (regardless of their Geographic area) and they make the policies - some suit us, some don't. Some that suit Caithness do not necessarily suit other areas and vice versa.

Not only do those outside Caithness looking in who respect Gaelic and it's heritage in their area see us as prepared to deny the language in our own area - they see that we do it in ignorance of obvious historical fact - which makes us look even more silly. Worse than this, I have the catalogue of press cuttings with councillor quote upon quote to show that they too have not researched their history. Nothing to do with trying to get a Gaelic name where no good reason exists - Gaelic for Staxigoe my butt - (another scare tactic, hark on that Tootler ;)) all to do with Gaelic was never spoken in Caithness.

We have engaged with the Gael, share a history with the Gael as well as the Viking and the Scot and it made us the county that we are. We deny the language only because it is not familiar to us and that is it in a nut shell.

Bilingual signs? It's council policy - nothing to do with history - one of the most silly, ignorant and stupid arguments to be pinning their anti-policy on. If the councillors could truly get a poll that will acurately reflect a non-wish for bilingual signs in Caithness, this would be their ONLY and best argument to prove that what they are saying is correct.

To date there is none. The org ran one, the Groat ran one, others have been run, nothing could satisfy their statement categorically.

Little wonder the Scotland on Sunday ran the article in Gaelic translated - "Mod 2010, do they want us or don't they?" It is the impression that our actions give that determine our ablity to endear. So far our county's councillors have done little to endear us to others with their insular stance based on a non-argument.

WBG :cool:

weeboyagee
12-Mar-09, 18:53
Stewart Stevenson - the man putting the brakes on the bilingual signs issue and whom I believe had £440,000 in HBOS share now (as politely put on another website forum!) valued at 6d - said "b*ll*cks". The same forum was wondering if we should be looking for a Gaelic Translation for the term - from the same folks I would care to think as would be required to translate Staxigoe into Gaelic :lol:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7939538.stm

WBG :cool:

pinotnoir
12-Mar-09, 19:30
My greatest fear is that in this debate our true history is being rewritten in denial of the facts.

As the article hints, history is usually written by the victors.

tootler
13-Mar-09, 13:02
Thanks Pinotoir, that was a really useful link.

Isn't it funny how different people extract different facts from the same documented history to support their personal opinions?:)

I guess the words in the article: "although, of course, there was always a significant English speaking minority in its north east corner" that are the source of the dispute, or to use his word, "hostility". It seems there were no similar "pockets" of English speaking communities across the Highlands at that time in history and I guess that's what makes our corner of Caithness a bit special and a bit different.

Great article, though. Does the guy that wrote it go by an English name, too - would he be Dr Stuart or Dr Stewart - and does his first name translate or is it always "Domhnall"? I'd like to read more by him - thanks for posting.

Kenneth
13-Mar-09, 17:58
I CANNOT ABIDE THIS ANY LONGER!! Grr

Having read this thread, I just cant hold it in! Please please no bilingual signs in Caithness, what oh god what is the point!?!?!?! Its an absolute waste of money. Not to boast, but having studied Advanced Higher History at school, I feel that I have learned that the Gaels' impact in this region of Scotland is minimal. If I lived in Sutherland, then YES by all means have Gaelic signs, it wouldnt bother me a jot as I know much of heritage dwells within Gaelic. But Caithness is different, its past is predominantly Norse. The majority of place names are Norse and to rename them something they were never called in Gaelic is ridiculous.

Im not anti Gaelic, im just passionate about history and people being informed about the correct Scottish histroy (probably why I hate Braveheart) in the slightest but the signs dont belong here. Its misleading and dareisay confusing, especially for tourists. Would we want to give them the impression that the Gaelic name for Thurso was its original name? No! ! !

Bah rant over

tootler
13-Mar-09, 23:48
Glad you got that off your chest, Kenneth - feeling better now?:lol:

Of course you are SO right, but the "Gaelic Plan" is already in place and changing it to suit our local needs is a little like trying to turn the Titanic!
The "understanding" that the Caithness councillors had with Inverness went out of the window with the reorganisation of Highland Council - with that we really did lose a lot of local decision making power. :~( It seems the Gaelic signs will keep coming whether we like them or not. And the southerners genuinely don't understand what all the fuss is about... I think maybe you have to have lived here for a while to understand how Caithness is culturally different from the rest of the Highlands, and, let's face it, most Gaels haven't lived here.

But these Gaels (even the extremists!) are not bad people, Kenneth, they just don't understand what it's like to live here in Caithness - so try not to be too angry with them... They're doing their best to promote their passion, and that's probably a good thing for them to do. It may be a slow process for them to get the hang of the "Caithness" thing, but they'll understand in the end, and we'll all feel better then. ;)

richman
14-Mar-09, 00:33
Bilingual signs? It's council policy - nothing to do with history - one of the most silly, ignorant and stupid arguments to be pinning their anti-policy on. If the councillors could truly get a poll that will acurately reflect a non-wish for bilingual signs in Caithness, this would be their ONLY and best argument to prove that what they are saying is correct.

To date there is none. The org ran one, the Groat ran one, others have been run, nothing could satisfy their statement categorically.

Little wonder the Scotland on Sunday ran the article in Gaelic translated - "Mod 2010, do they want us or don't they?" It is the impression that our actions give that determine our ablity to endear. So far our county's councillors have done little to endear us to others with their insular stance based on a non-argument.

WBG :cool:
what a pile of bull . ye dinna hev an argument fer yer galeic signs so ye say all e others hev no argument an is ignorant . ye shud get back til school n learn yersel some humble pie pal . ye dinna hev an argument til put up iss silly signs wi silly names for papigoe and thursa . ye shud go an learn yer sel some norse , ye micht choost hev a few folk listenin then eh ??? :lol:

pinotnoir
14-Mar-09, 01:14
tootler, I thought it was a great article too!

I can't give you any more information on the author but his lovely style of writing suggests it would be good to sit down and have a drink with him (perhaps coffee in your case and whisky in mine).

My interest in this debate was sparked through tracing my antecedents to living in Latheron and Stroma in 1701 and I'd like to know more about their lives e.g. did they really speak Gaelic?

As the author of the article writes "we need further research on this fascinating topic by the people of Caithness themselves".

I think its lovely language and we should do more to promote it but I can't speak a word!

richman
14-Mar-09, 01:17
it 's no a great article , it 's written by a westen island 'er wi a bias e size o wbg 's heid , can ye no see at ???

butterfly
14-Mar-09, 01:59
You know exactly who I am, and should work it out quite easily.
You did wrong by me in collaboration with others many years ago, and that is why I am not going any further.


your bang out of order,WBG was being civil to you and you are obviously suffering from a case of sour grapes.[disgust]

Bazeye
14-Mar-09, 02:25
Why not put the Sutherland signs in Gaelic and the Caithness signs in Norse or is that too easy?

Bazeye
14-Mar-09, 02:27
your bang out of order,WBG was being civil to you and you are obviously suffering from a case of sour grapes.[disgust]

Or a case of Buccy perhaps?

butterfly
14-Mar-09, 03:18
it 's no a great article , it 's written by a westen island 'er wi a bias e size o wbg 's heid , can ye no see at ???

No,no more than we can see your pea sized brain :roll:

Aaldtimer
14-Mar-09, 04:05
it 's no a great article , it 's written by a westen island 'er wi a bias e size o wbg 's heid , can ye no see at ???

No.[disgust]

King_Creon
14-Mar-09, 11:11
Its seems pointless to me as Caithness has no Gaelic history,even the place names are of Norse descent,i am not anti gaelic but its a bit like putting signs up in Doric or how about Norn which used to be the dominant language of Orkney.Its not the spoken language of the county nor has it ever been.


'Caith-ness' is half Gaelic, half Norse

Each
14-Mar-09, 15:55
Nuair a dh'leugh mi an beachdan laidir air a bord brath seo, tha e diorbh ga chriedsinn gu bheil iad mun aite far an rugadh 's thogadh mi.

When I read some of the the stronger opinions on the message board, it difficult to believe they are about the same place where I was born and raised.

This isnt an argument about history, its about real people in the here and now. For those of us who appreciate and enjoy Gaelic as a living language and want to inspire the next generation, we are met with unrelenting criticism from a very vocal section of the community.

There is no mystery as to why gaelic is rarely heard by those outwith the gaelic community itself !

Is writing few names in Gaelic on signboards really so objectionable ?

No-one in the gaelic community is forcing anyone else to learn or use gaelic. Nor do we want to see the other cultural identities or aspects of caithness destroyed or diminshed. In fact I would like to see the full richness and diversity of caithness celebrated and respected.

For those who argue that the gaelic community has no right to impose itself on others, perhaps you should take a good long look in the mirror. Perhaps, if english didnt impose itself on the gaelic community, you would have an agument. But isolation is not the answer - mutual respect and co-operation is.

Arguments about money, safety, history, etc are no more than a smoke screen for good old fashioned prejudice.

gleeber
14-Mar-09, 16:24
Nuair a dh'leugh mi an beachdan laidir air a bord brath seo, tha e diorbh ga chriedsinn gu bheil iad mun aite far an rugadh 's thogadh mi.

When I read some of the the stronger opinions on the message board, it difficult to believe they are about the same place where I was born and raised.

This isnt an argument about history, its about real people in the here and now. For those of us who appreciate and enjoy Gaelic as a living language and want to inspire the next generation, we are met with unrelenting criticism from a very vocal section of the community.

There is no mystery as to why gaelic is rarely heard by those outwith the gaelic community itself !

Is writing few names in Gaelic on signboards really so objectionable ?

No-one in the gaelic community is forcing anyone else to learn or use gaelic. Nor do we want to see the other cultural identities or aspects of caithness destroyed or diminshed. In fact I would like to see the full richness and diversity of caithness celebrated and respected.

For those who argue that the gaelic community has no right to impose itself on others, perhaps you should take a good long look in the mirror. Perhaps, if english didnt impose itself on the gaelic community, you would have an agument. But isolation is not the answer - mutual respect and co-operation is.

Arguments about money, safety, history, etc are no more than a smoke screen for good old fashioned prejudice.

I will have to consider whether my objection to Gaelic is prejudice on my part. Maybe it is but I feel I have a right to defend my particular stance as the Gaels feel they have a right to impose their stance on me and the county of Caithness.
That is a here and now response from a real person who enjoys listening to the gaelic language but does not feel a part of its culture.
I agree this issue is not about history I've already stated that. As for looking in the mirror and feeling responsible for the decline in the Gaelic language. No I dont accept that criticism. That's nonsense and contrary to your earlier statement that this is not about history, you use history yourself to propagate your stance.
I'm aware that the Gaelic language has been ressurected in recent years and rightly so. It started with Gaelic programmes on the radio then on the television then it found it's way into schools now its moving into communication.
One question for the Gaels. When are you going to be happy with your lot? Following the evangelic trail of the Gails through to it's natural conclusion where is it going to stop?

gleeber
14-Mar-09, 16:37
Ive considered whether my opposition to Gaelic in caithness is prejudice. Of course it's not and i could take exception against the accusation but I will forgive you in your enthusaism to convert me to your way of thinking.

ps welcome to the org

wavy davy
14-Mar-09, 16:47
IMHO the arguement about whether or not Gaelic is part of the Caithness heritage or indeed part of its future is irrelevant. The overwheming majority of people can't read Gaelic. Those that do also read English. Why then replace road signs that are fit for purpose with those that take longer to read, which must be dangerous. I don't see that having bilingual signs advances the Gaelic "cause" one whit. Rant over.

Rheghead
14-Mar-09, 17:04
I always thought that the Gaelic word for Caithness was Gallaibh which means Land of the Non-Gaels?

If that is true then I'm sure it has been deemed a breach of an indigenous people's human rights in other parts of the world to force a foreign language upon another.

pinotnoir
14-Mar-09, 17:09
Is there a danger that the argument over roadsigns may lead to a distortion of our history though?

Six months ago I wasn't aware that there may have been a significant number of indiginous Caithness people who spoke Gaelic and that Gaelic wasn't only spoken by the itinerent population of the county.

By taking entrenched positions on one matter we may lose the true history of our ancestors and that would do them a disservice.

Bazeye
14-Mar-09, 18:49
I visited some of my ohs relatives about 10 years ago at Lochqouy(?) and could nt understand a word they were saying and they were speaking English.:eek: Why complicate things, if its not broken, dont fix it.

gleeber
14-Mar-09, 19:12
Is there a danger that the argument over roadsigns may lead to a distortion of our history though?

Six months ago I wasn't aware that there may have been a significant number of indiginous Caithness people who spoke Gaelic and that Gaelic wasn't only spoken by the itinerent population of the county.

By taking entrenched positions on one matter we may lose the true history of our ancestors and that would do them a disservice.
If history was so clear cut Caithness would have been a Northern outpost of Gaeldom a long time ago. I suspect this latest spat has nothing to do with history but more to do with an innate Scottish romanticism, kiltsnall, transformed into a Gael revolution by people with an independant Scotland outlook, some of them but not all of them, from an indigenous Gael background.
The Vikings may or may not have chased the Gaels south and west when they arrived in Thurso Bay all those hundreds of years ago but by gum the Gael is fighting back now. He is using politics when once he was chased by axe wielding Vikings.
Some of them are still here though. I must go and sharpen the axe. ;)

Kenneth
14-Mar-09, 19:23
Might I add I am not biased nor prejudiced against Gaelic in anway and I think History is an excellent reason not to have Gaelic signs. I am not prejudiced against Gaelic as YES Scotland should promote it more...WHERE IT BELONGS.

If we could we could teach Pictish in Aberdeenshire and a form of Welsh in Strathclyde. But Caithness, more than predominantly, is Norse and has little to do with Gaelic.

Im all for funding for people that want to learn it, thats fine, BUT PLEASE WHY GAELIC PLACE NAME SIGNS WHY?????????????????????

gleeber
14-Mar-09, 19:58
Im all for funding for people that want to learn it, thats fine, BUT PLEASE WHY GAELIC PLACE NAME SIGNS WHY?????????????????????


The Vikings are fighting back. The axe is sharpened and Thors wind is blowing a Gael.
I dont think the Gaelic language should be publicly funded. If the Gaels are serious about maintaining a culture that has absolutely no relevance in a modern world let them do what the church does to raise funds. Round the doors with cans and coffee mornings in the newly refurbished Thurso town hall would do for a start. Its crazy that the Gaels have a voice in Scottish politics. Sure, let them stand on the Gael platform and let the people vote for them but to have influence in the corridors of power without transparent dialogue on the prejudices of the dialoguers is just not on.
Some of our best known institutions rely on public donations. The lifeboat, the church, youth organisations to name a few.
Why should us Vikings have to pay for the Gaels to take take us over in a peaceful revolution and be happy with it? On yer Heilan coos chaps.

crayola
14-Mar-09, 22:41
If we could we could teach Pictish in Aberdeenshire and a form of Welsh in Strathclyde.Thank you, I have learned something from this thread, I knew the Britons were dominant in Strathclyde but I didn't know what language they spoke.

I believe there was an ancient Pictish language that has left no traces and this was followed by a dialect of the Welsh/Cumbrian language but I had never even wondered what language the Britons spoke. :o